Range & Melee

[TwilitAngel]

Title says it all. We will probably see this issue addressed in the future melee update coming soon, but let me know what you all think.

They "nerfed" Ember to fix her pressing 4 and killing everything before players could even attack anything. This is the same issue with most Primed Reach weapons. Killing enemies through walls before we even see them. Some people think Maiming Strike is the issue, but it's really the range. I don't even have one and my Atterax still clears rooms. How would the rest of the community like to see this fixed? Removing all range mods from melee & rivens, compensating by giving us a legendary core and possibly forma? Or changing how range calculates on melee from +%range to +#range like what beam weapons have? Changing how range works also might let us see more Tonfas used since their range is so short, even Primed Reach can't extend it much.

[Doomsknightmare]

Very true, current melee meta is all about whips and polearms because of their superior range.

[tCartmant]

33 minutes ago, Doomsknight said:

Very true, current melee meta is all about whips and polearms because of their superior range.

That would be interesting considering they are adding a new warframe, with a wip.

[Pyradus]

I like the idea of Reach and Primed Reach adding flat values rather than %s.

[AcceptYourDeath]

I`d like to see

a) a hardcap on melee range, whatever the basic range for whip weapons might be is hardcap

b) at least alternative mods which give additive range for very short ranged melee weapons, sparring weapons, fist weapons, claws, dagger etc.

I can live with a Orthos Prime + Primed Reach being a thing, and let a whip be a whip they could solve spin2win with other solutions like dumping spin attack damage for whips close to nothing for example. Where it got really silly was riven + primed reach on whips and polearms exceeding warframe abilitys. HARDCAP!

vor 7 Stunden schrieb TwilitAngel:

compensating by giving us a legendary core and possibly forma?

No no no no stop this nonsense about compensation whenever they try to balance and fix stuff for the better. Part of the playerbase already became too pushy with changes.

[Andele3025]

9 hours ago, TwilitAngel said:

They "nerfed" Ember to fix her pressing 4 and killing everything before players could even attack anything.

They "nerfed" Ember to make players press more buttons than hold w and aim with mouse, not for anything else. The PR patchnote text may lie, but we can see from banshee that the point was making players not fall asleep at their screens.

P.S. for rest advocating for a melee range limit or nerf to whips is just a request to buff their base damage (since they already have dagger level terrible base damage already, what makes meme strike blood rush kill stuff is because crit damage multiplies with combo level). CapnToaster got it correct in making Reach and Primed Reach give flat values (e.g. 1~1.5 and 2.5m or even 4m respectively if one wants to buff short ranged weapons while not nerfing anything but whips for 2.5m range) would bring up rest of melee from "has to have primed reach or auto target to be useful with combos" to heavy blades level of general good.
 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Andele3025

[TwilitAngel]

41 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

They "nerfed" Ember to make players press more buttons than hold w and aim with mouse, not for anything else. The PR patchnote text may lie, but we can see from banshee that the point was making players not fall asleep at their screens.

Why I'm expecting a range fix on melee. It's pretty boring just spamming slide attack for some of the most effective farming methods. It's just kind of sad to see stances unused in favor of sliding around. They're really only used to give that extra capacity on the weapons. Though we do need some better updated stances for certain weapons. Or fix some of the damage multipliers on existing ones.

 

2 hours ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

No no no no stop this nonsense about compensation whenever they try to balance and fix stuff for the better. Part of the playerbase already became too pushy with changes

I only mentioned this because it's what I'm used to seeing. The straight up removal of Primed Reach without anything, even an endo refund, would probably upset a ton of people.

[Andele3025]

3 minutes ago, TwilitAngel said:

Why I'm expecting a range fix on melee. It's pretty boring just spamming slide attack for some of the most effective farming methods. It's just kind of sad to see stances unused in favor of sliding around. They're really only used to give that extra capacity on the weapons. Though we do need some better updated stances for certain weapons. Or fix some of the damage multipliers on existing ones.

There is nothing to fix on the upper side, only on the lower end. Slide attacks may bore you, but some people are bored by mesa, saryn, atlas, excal, etc. all still require active input so the reasoning for change to ember (and banshee) dont apply.

ALSO DID YOU TRY THE WHIP STANCES? THEY ARE S#&$, only scythe (and one could argue Nikana) stances are worse (since they animation lock and flail about while having trying hit range/worse hit detection and dps than their quick attacks; nikanas partially suffering the same deal in terms of qa dps being higher than combos tho they at least have range... at the cost of momentum/hyper armor, but TQ at least has the finisher pause combo in it and some people like the blind justice dash for how Metal Gear Rising it looks)!
In fact the only reason why anyone would have a preference in whip stance over not having them at all is since BW is a flat improvement to the charge attack.
As for polearms, the stances are actually better than slide attacks, issue there is mostly riven disposition giving 2-3 primed mods in 1 slot to stack with 3 primed mods (or 2 primed+meme strike) for zaws and "less used" stuff like the guandao. In fact most weapons which can be made to scale well/dont have completely trash stats have a good stance with multihits and usually at least 1 or 2 slash procs.

[TwilitAngel]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

DID YOU TRY THE WHIP STANCES? THEY ARE S#&$,

Why I mentioned we need new stances for them or sty the very least better damage from them. Most newer stances completely outclass older ones. Cyclone Kraken is a great example there.

[dreadgame]

Maybe make slide damage scale with base weapon range (eg. Scoliac has 55 base damage so slide damage should be 20-30 since it's the longest melee range atm). 

IMO the real issue with maiming strike or riven with its mechanics is the fact that people are able to use macro to spam slide attacks so I say give it a spam "overheat" gauge which gives a penalty when it's full (eg. dizziness, "missed" or 0 damage, self damage, melee disarm, etc..). 

[Ada_Wong_SG]

Whip attacks no longer clip through wall.

If a melee weapon hit a wall you stagger yourself and temporary lose control of the melee weapon
and open yourself to finisher attacks.

[AcceptYourDeath]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb TwilitAngel:

I only mentioned this because it's what I'm used to seeing. The straight up removal of Primed Reach without anything, even an endo refund, would probably upset a ton of people.

I know, you just asked it theoretically!

And I know people frequently suggest this "treatment" but it is still a joke and silly. Let them be upset, it`s not like they get half a meltdown for every change anyway. This "community" became way too comfortable causing a huge drama for every change while crying how everything is wrong at the same time. DE is damned no matter what at this point, if they touch their game.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Whip attacks no longer clip through wall.

If a melee weapon hit a wall you stagger yourself and temporary lose control of the melee weapon
and open yourself to finisher attacks.

If you miss a shot with a gun, you recoil onto your butt opening yourself to ground finishers.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

10 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

If you miss a shot with a gun, you recoil onto your butt opening yourself to ground finishers.

That maybe true, if you are not standing in proper grounding while firing standing unsupported there is chances of 
the recoil sending you off your balance, but it usually occur with higher caliber/ power firearms since assault rifles have moderate recoil
that is controllable on full auto.

I have yet to mention the potential of self hurt if those whip weapons backfired, since if you ever tried playing with a rope that has a weight on one end.
Or used a skipping rope like a whip it takes more effort making sure "soft" weapons doesn't hurt the user.

Nunchaku, 3-section staff, Whips, Kusarigama or anything that is "soft" in nature usually falls into category of backup weapon
one being easier to conceal, but they are also very hard to master and easily backfire on the user.

Missing an attack with a whip weapon usually means you need to control or evade it coming right back at you.

[Andele3025]

9 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

That maybe true, if you are not standing in proper grounding while firing standing unsupported there is chances of 
the recoil sending you off your balance, but it usually occur with higher caliber/ power firearms since assault rifles have moderate recoil
that is controllable on full auto.

I have yet to mention the potential of self hurt if those whip weapons backfired, since if you ever tried playing with a rope that has a weight on one end.
Or used a skipping rope like a whip it takes more effort making sure "soft" weapons doesn't hurt the user.

Nunchaku, 3-section staff, Whips, Kusarigama or anything that is "soft" in nature usually falls into category of backup weapon
one being easier to conceal, but they are also very hard to master and easily backfire on the user.

Missing an attack with a whip weapon usually means you need to control or evade it coming right back at you.

Great, if we go by realism, both the Atterax and Scoliac wont do that since the first is whats essentially a repurposed power cutter on top of a expanding suspension chain cable and the other is a living organism.

OR, you could not suggest things that had no thought put behind it.

[Pyradus]

The more I think about it the more and more I agree. Melee Reach mods should be changed to a flat number.

1. It's more internally consistent with mods like Sinister Reach.

2. It actually solves a major problem with balancing melee weapons.

Basically the current way the percent based melee Reach mods work is that weapons with already superb range are allowed to double down on that. Meanwhile, the weapons that need range improvements the most ironically receive little to no benefit from reach mods. It should be the reverse.

The numbers could be tweaked so it wouldn't nerf whips and polearms much (if at all) but greatly buff every other melee in the game.

For example

Atterax:

Range without Primed Reach - around 4m

Range with Primed Reach - 11-12m (+8 meters benefit)

A Primed Reach like this would not change Atterax's range at all, while being a tremendous buff for pretty much every other melee weapon.

Edited February 25, 2018 by CapnToaster
typo

[Andele3025]

43 minutes ago, CapnToaster said:

The more I think about it the more and more I agree. Melee Reach mods should be changed to a flat number.

1. It's more internally consistent with mods like Sinister Reach.

2. It actually solves a major problem with balancing melee weapons.

Basically the current way the percent based melee Reach mods work is that weapons with already superb range are allowed to double down on that. Meanwhile, the weapons that need range improvements the most ironically receive little to no benefit from reach mods. It should be the reverse.

The numbers could be tweaked so it wouldn't nerf whips and polearms much (if at all) but greatly buff every other melee in the game.

For example

Atterax:

Range without Primed Reach - around 4m

Range with Primed Reach - 11-12m (+8 meters benefit)

A Primed Reach like this would not change Atterax's range at all, while being a tremendous buff for pretty much every other melee weapon.

Even a 4.5~5.5m range on primed reach would be good since it would be a slight buff to whip swords and heavy blades and a giant buff to close range weapons (which should probably have half of the range to go movement and half to actual hitbox increase instead of movement being coupled to either attack or movement speed based on the whims and whimsies the dev implementing the move had at the time; e.g. Stalking Fan or Seismic Palm; while also fixing the disconnect of punching air and hitting a enemy around the corner).

[Ada_Wong_SG]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Great, if we go by realism, both the Atterax and Scoliac wont do that since the first is whats essentially a repurposed power cutter on top of a expanding suspension chain cable and the other is a living organism.

OR, you could not suggest things that had no thought put behind it.

I suppose a power cutter going through wall is very realistic.

Also take note that centrifugal forced induced arc acceleration can mean that once the power cutter hit obstacle, it can bounce back 
right at the user faster than the winding spring is able to pull the cutter back.

Try attaching a chainsaw at the back of a retractable rope and hit a hard surface with it.
I don't suppose the chainsaw or the rope would magically warp through the surface.

And if the chainsaw is indestructible, you have to worry about it bouncing back at you.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[ArchPhaeton]

Let this whole blasphemous thread burn to the ground and be forever forgotten. Nerfing long ranged melees out of spite from the ember nerf? What's even become of this playerbase?

You can't quite compare old WoF to current ranged melee play. For stuff that uses blood rush, you actually have to mind the combo timer and build it up, and even so it only gets interesting with very long runs (assuming your team doesn't kill everything and leave you without targets)

You can say they're a bit OP at lower levels but again, a lot of stuff falls into that... Stomp? Avalanche? Syndicate procs? After a certain point you no longer reap everything within your reach.

And a dagger with 5m reach would be utter nonsense - that's almost 2 stories high you know?

What limits melee possibilities are the inherent characteristics of a melee attack - picture a guy coming at you with a gun and you with a knife - unless they're really bad, the winner is clear. Melees are close range weapons and smaller ones (daggers, shortswords) are mostly for single targets - considerable drawbacks when it comes to a horde slaughtering game - and this is where range has trumped over other alternatives. More often than not, melees don't make up for the downsides of getting closer and concentrating on one target.

This said I rarely see one or two "sweeper" players every day. If this was such an annoyance, DE would surely have done something long ago, that's one thing i'm completely certain.

[ArchPhaeton]

1 hour ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

-
Nunchaku, 3-section staff, Whips, Kusarigama or anything that is "soft" in nature usually falls into category of backup weapon
one being easier to conceal, but they are also very hard to master and easily backfire on the user.

Missing an attack with a whip weapon usually means you need to control or evade it coming right back at you.

While all of that makes sense, for gameplay purposes I don't see such considerations being implemented. WF is a horde killing game, if you're gonna add risk mechanics to the basic action of attacking, things may become rather tedious.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

14 minutes ago, ArchPhaeton said:

While all of that makes sense, for gameplay purposes I don't see such considerations being implemented. WF is a horde killing game, if you're gonna add risk mechanics to the basic action of attacking, things may become rather tedious.

I guess it is called "balancing" ?

Currently whips are nothing more than supersized swords that is very convenient to carry around.
All the benefits with no negativities, though I would say that realistically a whip is harder to master than a sword 
so throw in a much higher mastery rank for balancing.

[Pyradus]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Even a 4.5~5.5m range on primed reach would be good since it would be a slight buff to whip swords and heavy blades and a giant buff to close range weapons (which should probably have half of the range to go movement and half to actual hitbox increase instead of movement being coupled to either attack or movement speed based on the whims and whimsies the dev implementing the move had at the time; e.g. Stalking Fan or Seismic Palm; while also fixing the disconnect of punching air and hitting a enemy around the corner).

I like the idea of making hitboxes larger. A huge problem with most melee is not only how short ranged the attacks are but how extremely narrow they are. You might as well be trying to give the grineer a hug than hit him with a nikana for instance.

48 minutes ago, ArchPhaeton said:

And a dagger with 5m reach would be utter nonsense - that's almost 2 stories high you know?

As for this 'realism', also explain to me how several physical bullets, seemingly occupying the same space, can come out of a pistol's barrel just by dropping a magic mod into it. It's a gameplay mechanic. What DE should do is make the energy trails for your weapon display the accurate range. Then it could be explained by your tenno projecting their void powers or something. They can channel energy into their weapons already, why would that be a stretch?

In fact, why would it be a stretch that your tenno can strike enemies through walls in the first place? They have the power of the void you know, to "strike enemies in ways they could never comprehend"...

But whatever.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I suppose a power cutter going through wall is very realistic.

Also take note that centrifugal forced induced arc acceleration can mean that once the power cutter hit obstacle, it can bounce back 
right at the user faster than the winding spring is able to pull the cutter back.

Try attaching a chainsaw at the back of a retractable rope and hit a hard surface with it.
I don't suppose the chainsaw or the rope would magically warp through the surface.

And if the chainsaw is indestructible, you have to worry about it bouncing back at you.

Thats not how object torque nor elasticity work when it comes to metals and constant velocity change... you do get that there is a difference between yarn rope and something like high carbon 1095 wire rope, hitting a wall with the latter is like hitting a wall with a hammer.
P.S. no, polearms are oversized swords since thats EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE USED AS IN WAR (a high utility weapon with longer reach than the standard blade or axe and without the downside of exorbitant cost and slightly iffy carry of swords that go above the size of arming swords/hand and a half swords, but easier to get disarmed or even pivot break the shaft by a properly armoured knight IF he manages to get closer), whips dont have even half the base damage of any sword that wasnt released in the infancy of warframe.

 

4 hours ago, ArchPhaeton said:

And a dagger with 5m reach would be utter nonsense - that's almost 2 stories high you know?

What limits melee possibilities are the inherent characteristics of a melee attack - picture a guy coming at you with a gun and you with a knife - unless they're really bad, the winner is clear. Melees are close range weapons and smaller ones (daggers, shortswords) are mostly for single targets - considerable drawbacks when it comes to a horde slaughtering game - and this is where range has trumped over other alternatives. More often than not, melees don't make up for the downsides of getting closer and concentrating on one target.

I agree with the start, but as said for the quoted "intended short range weapons", IMO putting half of a flat value increases on actual hitbox and half on the innate movement of skills that animation lock would be a good solution, at least a better one than the current "RNG of the gods" auto target for melee that (while making daggers, fists, etc a lot more practically usable/not wiff 80% of the dps due to camera alignment vs hitbox issue).

[TwilitAngel]

5 hours ago, ArchPhaeton said:

Nerfing long ranged melees out of spite from the ember nerf?

Not exactly. More along the lines of addressing the issue of killing things before others can even see or get near the enemies as mentioned by DE during the ember nerf. Yes, there are still other frames and things that can do this, but some do it more effectively than others. TBH the new Resonating Quake was a mistake.

Primed Reach weapons don't really do this in huge open maps like PoE. There, they are fine. But overall, it was a bad mechanic. Anyone who disagrees is probably ignorant how broken it is and love to just cheese the game. Why use any other weapon or melee in the game when certain these certain melee outperform almost everything else? Have fun trying to kill something with a melee you love like Hirudo or anything really short range, or sometimes even your favorite gun when you have a teammate just sliding around killing everything before you can hit it. We also have access to Naramon's passive from 2.0/2.5 that makes the combo counter decay by 5 instead of just poof you gotta start over and build it up again. I'm guilty of using it myself, but I really don't like to. It's quite boring, but it's the meta and effective because of how range works on melee. You could argue to play solo, or just leave the party, but not all players will want to do that every single time they hear someone swinging one of those whips. Especially newer players. I had a friend join and play with me once. He didn't really appreciate me playing Ember and wiping everything before he could shoot and I don't think he'd like it if I ran with the busted whips either. There are also people who don't care and accept being carried.

Main point is that it's a long standing issue like Chroma's Vex Armor multiplying wrong, (finally they fixed that,) but they have yet to fix melee.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, TwilitAngel said:

Main point is that it's a long standing issue like Chroma's Vex Armor multiplying wrong, (finally they fixed that,) but they have yet to fix melee.

Because there is no bug and nothing to fix (except some weapons not benefiting from range mods as much as they should and/or stances needing a touch up in terms of animation locking and rebind options).