Range & Melee

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

4 hours ago, TwilitAngel said:

More along the lines of addressing the issue of killing things before others can even see

No matter what you change, you will always have the issue of one player killing something before the other players get a chance. Regardless of sight lines or whatever.

Even if you took away all weapons, and the only way to kill something was to bump into them, people would complain loki et al are too fast and frost can't keep up.

While I could understand melee weapons not killing through walls/objects for example, I'm not necessarily a proponent of this or anything else.

The more that gets changed like this the worse and worse the grind will feel. Something all the whiny nerf-this-and-that crowd seems to gloss over because their preferred method of killing is inefficient.  If you really want to ensure someone isn't out killing you, play solo.

 

[TwilitAngel]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

The more that gets changed like this the worse and worse the grind will feel.

It might, but it really hasn't stopped us from finding the next best method of grinding. (RIP Draco)

Probably another step would be to change how affinity works. Leveling any non-damage dealing frame is more of a grind. Since 100% exp from frame ability kill goes to the frame, that leaves frames who have no damage dealing abilities with a worse grind. (Ex. You can level an Ember faster than Harrow) Maybe this doesn't really need a change, we have access to affinity boosters, but it's always been a slight annoyance for me. As far as Focus farming from affinity, there's no real point in hitting daily cap now. Fighting the 3 Eidolons in PoE will give you enough shards for 155k points. Good parties can hunt all 3 about 3-4 times in one night.

Edited February 25, 2018 by TwilitAngel

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

On 2/23/2018 at 5:04 PM, TwilitAngel said:

Title says it all. We will probably see this issue addressed in the future melee update coming soon, but let me know what you all think.

They "nerfed" Ember to fix her pressing 4 and killing everything before players could even attack anything. This is the same issue with most Primed Reach weapons. Killing enemies through walls before we even see them. Some people think Maiming Strike is the issue, but it's really the range. I don't even have one and my Atterax still clears rooms. How would the rest of the community like to see this fixed? Removing all range mods from melee & rivens, compensating by giving us a legendary core and possibly forma? Or changing how range calculates on melee from +%range to +#range like what beam weapons have? Changing how range works also might let us see more Tonfas used since their range is so short, even Primed Reach can't extend it much.

I use primed reach on twin basolk, dark split sword, kogake prime and a slew others that don't have much in the way of range. Nerfing range mods would be $&*&*#(%&.

Just cap melee range at 15m.

[TwilitAngel]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Nerfing range mods would be $&*&*#(%&.

Not directly nerfing. Fixing. Try putting Primed Reach on Tonfas and see if you notice any range change at all. Also, changing it to a flat value as I mentioned would actually help the weapons you listed.

Edited February 25, 2018 by TwilitAngel

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

13 minutes ago, TwilitAngel said:

Not directly nerfing. Fixing. Try putting Primed Reach on Tonfas and see if you notice any range change at all. Also, changing it to a flat value as I mentioned would actually help the weapons you listed.

Or just leave mods alone and cap melee to 15m

[o.0-]

If I could, this is what I'd do:

• Match the base range of melee weapons to their visual look, as some weapons need Reach to even get that for example.
• Have Warframes able to move faster during melee to close on the enemy. It's one reason why I slide to close faster to get into melee range
• Reach and Primed Reach, change to provide an evasion boost and a lunge to get into range of an enemy

Here is a visual of what I mean, as to how a lunge or charge could work, if an enemy is out of reach of the melee and the Warframe moves forward to get into striking distance of

Spoiler

 

[TwilitAngel]

4 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Reach and Primed Reach, change to provide an evasion boost and a lunge to get into range of an enemy

Kind of like how Arch-Melee works? Hmm... idk about that.

[o.0-]

8 minutes ago, TwilitAngel said:

Kind of like how Arch-Melee works? Hmm... idk about that.

Hmm, wasn't thinking about that.

Here's another example

[TwilitAngel]

7 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Here's another example

The only thing would be how wonky it would probably look mid-combo.

[o.0-]

1 minute ago, TwilitAngel said:

The only thing would be how wonky it would probably look mid-combo.

That all depends on how its designed and coded.

For example, if it only occurs at the beginning of a combo, and having faster foot speed during the combo, then such a lunge could fit in to how combos already work, and adds a new aspect to melee.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

19 minutes ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Hmm, wasn't thinking about that.

Here's another example

That looks boring, plus that guy is fight one enemy not 20. In WF hes gonna get his tail wrecked.

[o.0-]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

That looks boring, plus that guy is fight one enemy not 20. In WF hes gonna get his tail wrecked.

I regularly slide into groups of enemies now and if I could mix in lunges it's simply another aspect available in melee.

So you have to understand what this would be for, as it is intended as a supplement to what we already do in Warframe.

 

[ArchPhaeton]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

No matter what you change, you will always have the issue of one player killing something before the other players get a chance. Regardless of sight lines or whatever.

Even if you took away all weapons, and the only way to kill something was to bump into them, people would complain loki et al are too fast and frost can't keep up.

While I could understand melee weapons not killing through walls/objects for example, I'm not necessarily a proponent of this or anything else.

The more that gets changed like this the worse and worse the grind will feel. Something all the whiny nerf-this-and-that crowd seems to gloss over because their preferred method of killing is inefficient.  If you really want to ensure someone isn't out killing you, play solo.

 

/thread

[taiiat]

everybody blames the wrong suspect, somehow.
Blood Rush is the issue with what you describe. the sole issue. the way it calculates, is incorrect and an outlier from the rest of all of the Mods in the game.
high Range would be a niche choice used by some but not by others, if you were not guaranteeing to Kill anything that is hit(which is what Blood Rush does). larger opportunity to hit, but sacrificing a Damage Mod or some other Utility like Speed in its place.

Primed Reach is a very good Mod - it allows some very short Range Melee Weapons to actually increase in Range.
normally Powercrepe isn't great, but in this case it does a lot of good things for Melee Weapons.

1 hour ago, SPARTAN-187.Thanatos said:

Here's another example

we can do that already, by Sliding. contrats, you've gap closed with any Enemy you choose, or to anywhere you want, even if there isn't an Enemy! fast positioning to get to whereever you want quickly.
or hell, you could even Parkour to somewhere! or anywhere!

[TwilitAngel]

27 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Primed Reach is a very good Mod - it allows some very short Range Melee Weapons to actually increase in Range.

Actually, it really doesn't. It multiplies, so already long range melee become longer and some short range ones don't increase by much, if at all. Ohma is a prime example here. I tried putting Primed Reach on it to fix the range issue, but it seemed to do absolutely nothing because the base range is pretty much point blank.

[LuckyCharm]

I like my big range polearm. All that nerfing the range interaction and making it a flat bonus will do is add a harder to deal with problem.. stances. Things like crimson dervish give 3x multipliers. The rapier one gives forced bleeds. The heavy swords broken bull has big multipliers over many hits. Oh and tonfas have highest slide attack damage in game by far and a fast animation so i see why you want them buffed..

You really want to nerf things, nerf maiming strikes interaction with blood rush, then at least you can still clear rooms but you have to work a bit harder for it. 

 

Oh and daggers would end up best in game because of long range insta kills with the stinging thorn stance. 

[taiiat]

18 minutes ago, TwilitAngel said:

Actually, it really doesn't.

it does, because the value is high enough that shorter Range Melee Weapons got some useful benefit out of it.

it's not going to make your short Range Melee Weapon hit things 10 Meters away. but almost triple of what they normally do, helps dramatically.
a Multiplier of Base is the best choice, because adding Flat Values to short Range Melee Weapons would mean we end up with more Orthos Primes (i.e. swinging and hitting things that are nowhere near the end of the actual Weapon - obviously there's more examples).
Multiplying base values keeps the hierarchy the same, just lets you increase it.

[Raatv]

If your getting beat you will always get beat you did not adapt or overcome. Just like someone earlier said nerf this and something new will take it's place what then? Might as well say that Public matches should only pair up people with same mastery rating, spec and weapon load-outs and of course Mods.

[TwilitAngel]

6 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

I like my big range polearm. All that nerfing the range interaction and making it a flat bonus will do is add a harder to deal with problem.. stances. Things like crimson dervish give 3x multipliers. The rapier one gives forced bleeds. The heavy swords broken bull has big multipliers over many hits. Oh and tonfas have highest slide attack damage in game by far and a fast animation so i see why you want them buffed..

You really want to nerf things, nerf maiming strikes interaction with blood rush, then at least you can still clear rooms but you have to work a bit harder for it. 

 

Oh and daggers would end up best in game because of long range insta kills with the stinging thorn stance. 

This is exactly what would be nice to see. At least there would be more weapon variety. Right now, it's mainly whips and polearms because of the insane range they get to the point they could barely be considered melee anymore. Dagger's would be strong instakills, but they do that already, executing it with longer range wouldn't change that you're locked in a finisher animation. The guy next to you could still use their whip or polearm and wipe the rest out by the time that animation is done. With the melee update, I expect nerfs and buffs here and there, that's just what happens when you try to balance things.

[Peter]

The problem is how combo multiplier works in ranged melee, whips and polearms are easy and fast to fill the combo multiplier because in start you do low dmg multiple times in same enemies on large range, and when you fill the combo you don't need stacks anymore and can slain all enemies with incredible atk speed of berserker, creating the perfect melee.

While low ranged weapons can't beat this, don't matter the build you make. 

Range + attack speed = easy & fast combo stacking = blood rush 300%+CC in one minute + maiming.

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Zanakeph

[Eric1738]

Yeah, the range of melee weapons has always been an issue for me. I don't have much experience with action games, but from my experience of playing Nier: Automata, I found their melee weapons have the right range for me. Weapons like fist in Warframe can barely hit anything 2 meters away, yet in Nier I can hit mobs comfortably without worrying too much about beating the air. In Warframe, weapons with limited range needs something really special to compete. That's why I like how they give Daggers their niche, and I certainly hope this can go on to more short range weapons.

19 minutes ago, Zanakeph said:

The problem is how combo multiplier works in ranged melee, whips and polearms are easy and fast to fill the combo multiplier because in start you do low dmg multiple times in same enemies on large range, and when you fill the combo you don't need stacks anymore and can slain all enemies with incredible atk speed of berserker, creating the perfect melee.

While low ranged weapons can't beat this, don't matter the build you make. 

Range + attack speed = easy & fast combo stacking = blood rush 300%+CC in one minute + maiming.

 

yes and no I'd say. Melee combo was not quite impactful without certain mods. Before combo multiplier became practically useful, the melee meta had already been dominated by the long range ones. Orthos Prime once was the best melee because of that.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Eric1738