Minimalist Ember Rework

[Maka.Bones]

6 hours ago, xarvh said:

Using https://instacalc.com/42286 a lvl100 Lancer has 14801 health and 84.64% damage reduction, since Ferrite Armor has no modifiers vs Heat.
Let's ignore the explosion damage:
fireballDamage = baseDamage * headMultiplier * Str * chargeMultiplier * accelerant = 1200 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 7.4 = 106560
InflictedDamage = fireballDamage * (1 - reduction) = 106560 * (1 - 0.8464) = 16367 > 14801
So lvl100 Lancer dies with a charged fireball to the face.

Also Infested enemies don't have Cloned Flesh, they have Infested Flesh, which gives Heat a +25% bonus damage.
Again, the only one health type that takes LESS damage from Heat is Proto Shield.
http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heat

On *every* other health type, Heat does at least 100% damage, before Armor.
The only thing that Heat lacks, is a way to reduce or bypass armor, but that's no particular to Heat damage.
Blast, Electricity, Magnetic all deal LESS damage than Heat vs Armor.
Impact, Gas, Viral, Void deal THE SAME damage as Heat vs Armor.
 

-Heat only does +25% against cloned flesh. 200 base armor already reduces 20% of incoming damage, and higher lvl enemies can have up to 7k armor. 

• Now do you see how redundant that bonus damage to cloned flesh becomes, when you're fighting grineer?

-Corpus units give no negatives or positives... but their heavy units get proto shields, which does reduce heat damage. So heat *doesn't* have a bonus to offset this proto shields reduction. She's just kinda screwed. 

-Infested ancient Disruptors give scaling armor bonuses to all infested

-Corrupted get both proto shields, and full armor values from the original factions, along with eximus units that offer additional heat resistance

-Sentients adapt to any incoming damage source

 

Dude, you're only looking at this on paper.... Not looking at how ember actually plays out against those factions. I get your point, but you're missing the key players that prevent ember from scaling. THIS Is why heat damage sucks. (yes all other elemental damage gets reduced, but ember only has one element, so i'm only talking about THE ONE element). If you ignore these, then your ideas will still only work against low-mid level fodder. 

That's all i'm going to say anymore man. This has gotten sour. If you want to listen, then go for it. If not, then don't. It's your idea anyway, not mine. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yes, other enemies have several ways of reducing heat damage:

1. armor (which every single faction gets, increasing amounts of past lvl 40... infested included)
2. proto shields
3. Eximus units get elemental reduction, and grant elemental reduction

I should've also mentioned that infested also gain heat damage reduction at higher lvls. Because of ancient healers/disruptors, and because they also get armor.

 

Dude, why do you keep ignoring all of the other times that i've mentioned the lack of CC, or lack of bypassing armor (which you said you don't personally want for ember), or the lack of overwhelming damage?  If you're gonna quote me, as if i'm saying something... actually take it in context. Read the entire thing in the context of what i'm saying. Don't just focus on one single thing, ignoring the rest. 

that goes for any damage that isn't corrosive, slash (proc), toxin (proc) or radiation (since radiation removes ancient healer buff) you cant single her out for that. armor effects almost ever frame. ember doesn't need to lock down the map. she deals boosted heat damage which is neutral to all but proto shield. neutral does not mean less. heat can still destroy shield like it does red hp since shield has no damage reduction component like armor. its as i said before you have the option to not use what shes good at. dont want to use heat? that is your problem not hers. you can deal with armor with your weapons. and if you need CC use accelerant or fire blast augment or hell even WoF agument just i dont know move around a bit more. its a mobility game.

[Maka.Bones]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

that goes for any damage that isn't corrosive, slash (proc), toxin (proc) or radiation (since radiation removes ancient healer buff) you cant single her out for that. armor effects almost ever frame. ember doesn't need to lock down the map. she deals boosted heat damage which is neutral to all but proto shield. neutral does not mean less. heat can still destroy shield like it does red hp since shield has no damage reduction component like armor. its as i said before you have the option to not use what shes good at. dont want to use heat? that is your problem not hers. you can deal with armor with your weapons. and if you need CC use accelerant or fire blast augment or hell even WoF agument just i dont know move around a bit more. its a mobility game.

Yes, but ember only deals heat damage--so i'm only talking about heat damage. She's a caster frame. Other caster frames with *only one element* have a way to bypass all of those things. Ember doesn't. 

^This^ is my argument

If she's supposed to mainly rely on her weapons, she's no longer a caster frame. In which case she needs to be tankier, not remain fragile--simply because her role has changed.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yes, but ember only deals heat damage. She's a caster frame. Other caster frames with *only one element* have a way to bypass all of those things. Ember doesn't. 

^This^ is my argument

If she's supposed to mainly rely on her weapons, she's no longer a caster frame. In which case she needs to be tankier, not remain fragile. 

volt uses lightning which is far worse than heat.

[Maka.Bones]

9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

volt uses lightning which is far worse than heat.

Volt gets shields which protect against projectiles, and increases crit damage by 200%. They also add electricity, which is used for corrosive damage.

• Much better than heat, or than ember. He's tankier, and can directly do more damage against armor. Corrosive is the single strongest elemental type (when you compare it against all enemies across all factions) 
• Volt used to be mainly a CC frame, and he also gets a really good speed buff which allows him to dodge enemy attacks & gain superior melee/gunplay performance. 

That was a very bad example. At this point it just feels like you're trying to come up with anything to just tell me that i'm wrong. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

I need to sleep. I hope you guys have a good night.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Volt gets shields which protect against projectiles, and increases crit damage by 200%. They also add electricity, which is used for corrosive damage.

• Much better than heat, or than ember. He's tankier, and can directly do more damage against armor. Corrosive is the single strongest elemental type (when you compare it against all enemies across all factions) 

That was a very bad example. At this point it just feels like you're trying to come up with anything to just tell me that i'm wrong. 

"slow clap" the ability to give crit damage has nothing to do with electricity being worse than heat. corrosive is the best way to deal with armor and you can get it on your weapons. ember can severely boost a corrosive/heat weapon without needing to sit behind a barricade of shields or need to use a crit weapon. 200% crit damage is nothing on weapons that dont crit or dont crit often.

[Maka.Bones]

14 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

"slow clap" the ability to give crit damage has nothing to do with electricity being worse than heat. corrosive is the best way to deal with armor and you can get it on your weapons. ember can severely boost a corrosive/heat weapon without needing to sit behind a barricade of shields or need to use a crit weapon. 200% crit damage is nothing on weapons that dont crit or dont crit often.

 

28 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yes, but ember only deals heat damage--so i'm only talking about heat damage. She's a caster frame. Other caster frames with *only one element* have a way to bypass all of those things. Ember doesn't. 

^This^ is my argument

Ok so... how does the crit damage buff not apply again? pls read my argument lol. the crit damage buff, is one of the ways that volt can bypass his one-element weakness. Not to mention that the added electricity to weapons, only makes corrosive proc more, and hit harder. 

and if ember boosts a corrosive/heat weapon, she dilutes the chances for corrosive to proc (so it won't reduce armor)

And... why would I *not* use a crit weapon, with volt? Not to mention that most of the best weapons in-game, have high crit chance. 

I can tell you why I wouldn't use a mainly-heatbased weapon with ember though... Outside of Silva & Aegis, or Javlok. I wouldn't use a heat-based weapon, because I could use corrosive instead. ;) In fact, almost everyone else says "well just use a corrosive weapon, to strip enemy armor" .... So yeah, adding more heat kinda defeats the purpose of building for corrosive procs. I need to sleep man. Pls just stop. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Maka.Bones said:

 

Ok so... how does the crit damage buff not apply again? pls read my argument lol. the crit damage buff, is one of the ways that volt can bypass his one-element weakness. Not to mention that the added electricity to weapons, only makes corrosive proc more, and hit harder. 

and if ember boosts a corrosive/heat weapon, she dilutes the chances for corrosive to proc (so it won't reduce armor)

And... why would I *not* use a crit weapon, with volt? Not to mention that most of the best weapons in-game, have high crit chance. 

I can tell you why I wouldn't use a mainly-heatbased weapon with ember though... Outside of Silva & Aegis, or Javlok. I wouldn't use a heat-based weapon, because I could use corrosive instead. ;) In fact, almost everyone else says "well just use a corrosive weapon, to strip enemy armor" .... So yeah, adding more heat kinda defeats the purpose of building for corrosive procs. I need to sleep man. Pls just stop. 

point is ember can boost weapons without being tied to any specific one unlike volt. i prefer status weapons to crit ones and if you didn't notice some those top tier weapons have high status chance. what it comes down to is personal preference. its not a problem with how she deals and is best with heat damage. i don't need to boost corrosive because its already able to lower armor while dealing bonus damage to it. oh look cloned flesh is weak to heat damage so again heat destroys red hp and once the armor is gone corrosive turns to neutral damage.

if you are tired go to sleep not like this thread revolves around you. people can post when they want as long as they are being constructive and respectful.

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

point is ember can boost weapons without being tied to any specific one unlike volt. i prefer status weapons to crit ones and if you didn't notice some those top tier weapons have high status chance. what it comes down to is personal preference. its not a problem with how she deals and is best with heat damage. i don't need to boost corrosive because its already able to lower armor while dealing bonus damage to it. oh look cloned flesh is weak to heat damage so again heat destroys red hp and once the armor is gone corrosive turns to neutral damage.

if you are tired go to sleep not like this thread revolves around you. people can post when they want as long as they are being constructive and respectful.

Ember can only buff weapons that deal heat damage, how many people mod for pure heat? Crit is much more common then heat builds, and volts shield gives everyone firing through it a lightning buff to damage.

now that embers 3 gives out fire buffs, the gap is slightly closed, but embers abilities are worse to use then volts for CC, and give less benefits to her allies and herself.

so you can either agree that ember is a damage dealing caster with weak CC abilities, or that she’s nothing and shouldn’t be played.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[EinheriarJudith]

8 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

Ember can only buff weapons that deal heat damage, how many people mod for pure heat? Crit is much more common then heat builds, and volts shield gives everyone firing through it a lightning buff to damage.

now that embers 3 gives out fire buffs, the gap is slightly closed, but embers abilities are worse to use then volts for CC, and give less benefits to her allies and herself.

so you can either agree that ember is a damage dealing caster with weak CC abilities, or that she’s nothing and shouldn’t be played.

? Someone saying there leaving doesn’t mean the thread revolves around them, it means they’re trying to fireworn you they won’t reply to anymore of your catty uninformed quotes.

you dont have to mod for pure heat. DE isnt expecting people to mod for 1 specific element. people chose to do that. i always include heat damage when i use ember because it is neutral to shield and armor  and will destroy red hp when either are not present. i dont have to agree to anything her CC gives you more than enough time to kill what you are trying to kill or evade damage. frames that CC lock the entire map should not even be a thing which is why prism got LoS treatment and so did radial jav. and if you didnt read that last bit he told me to "just stop"

[BigPapiPimp]

19 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you dont have to mod for pure heat. DE isnt expecting people to mod for 1 specific element. people chose to do that. i always include heat damage when i use ember because it is neutral to shield and armor  and will destroy red hp when either are not present. i dont have to agree to anything her CC gives you more than enough time to kill what you are trying to kill or evade damage. frames that CC lock the entire map should not even be a thing which is why prism got LoS treatment and so did radial jav. and if you didnt read that last bit he told me to "just stop"

Edited ^ apologizes

With ember you know to mod for fire, but your team couldn’t be bothered.

By pure fire I meant not using your fire mods for radiation or gas.

Stun lock the whole map isn’t the question, long enough isn’t a measurement of time worth mentioning either. At some levels long enough is a fraction of a second, does her CC hold up to high level sorties? Will a team bank itself on endless runs using just ember CC? If CC is just an after thought to her abilities, what is their focus?

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[EinheriarJudith]

15 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

Edited ^

With ember you know to mod for fire, but your team couldn’t be bothered.

By pure fire I meant not using your fire mods for radiation or gas.

Stun lock the whole map isn’t the question, long enough isn’t a measurement of time worth mentioning either. At some levels long enough is a fraction of a second, does her CC hold up to high level sorties? Will a team bank itself on endless runs using just ember CC? If CC is just an after thought to her abilities, what is their focus?

corrosive/heat, viral/heat, magnetic/heat these are options for getting damage bonus from accelerant and fire blast. if you dont want to use these combos you will atleast get the 50% damage bonus with elemental combos that have heat (radiation, gas, blast) there are plenty of ways to make use of what shes good at and her 3 other abilities deal purely heat damage. shes a damage frame not a CC one the CC she has is good enough imo for what she does. there are CC frames you can use if you want CC. the focus of her abilities is pretty obvious. Heat Damage/DoT.

Edited March 20, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[BigPapiPimp]

21 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

corrosive/heat, viral/heat, magnetic/heat these are options for getting damage bonus from accelerant and fire blast. if you dont want to use these combos you will atleast get the 50% damage bonus with elemental combos that have heat (radiation, gas, blast) there are plenty of ways to make use of what shes good at and her 3 other abilities deal purely heat damage. shes a damage frame not a CC one the CC she has is good enough imo for what she does. there are CC frames you can use if you want CC. the focus of her abilities is pretty obvious. Heat Damage/DoT.

Heat damage is her theme, heat has a weak Dot, her abilities are centered around dealing/improving heat damage. She currently doesn’t do enough heat damage to matter past early levels, leaving her with just the poor CC that is part of her type. She needs her augments to consistently benefit from this mechanic.

Her accelerent works with elemental combos? So it’s like heat up? I thought it specifically didn’t. Thanks for letting me know.

the list of elemental combos is useful too, but it detracts nothing from the point it’s referencing, as I mentioned above.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[EinheriarJudith]

27 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

Heat damage is her theme, heat has a weak Dot, her abilities are centered around dealing/improving heat damage. She currently doesn’t do enough heat damage to matter past early levels, leaving her with just the poor CC that is part of her type. She needs her augments to consistently benefit from this mechanic.

Her accelerent works with elemental combos? So it’s like heat up? I thought it specifically didn’t. Thanks for letting me know.

the list of elemental combos is useful too, but it detracts nothing from the point it’s referencing, as I mentioned above.

i didn't say accelerant worked with elemental combos. fire blast add 50% heat damage when firing through it. alot of warframes damage falls off at some point. its supposed to. issues with dealing enough damage to go longer isnt her problem. the scaling of armor and hp is. people always say man i wish the damage was more but they are talking higher than sortie lvl because ember is capable of doing sortie 3. DE doesnt have to balance anything around optional content. i will go as far as saying if armor and hp had a cap no one would be complaining about how much or how little frames do in damage around lvls where scaling is broken.

Edited March 20, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[BigPapiPimp]

11 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i didn't say accelerant worked with elemental combos. fire blast add 50% heat damage when firing through it. alot of warframes damage falls off at some point. its supposed to. issues with dealing enough damage to go longer isnt her problem. the scaling of armor and hp is. people always say man i wish the damage was more but they are talking higher than sortie lvl because ember is capable of doing sortie 3. DE doesnt have to balance anything around optional content. i will go as far as saying if armor and hp had a cap no one would be complaining about how much or how little frames do in damage around lvls where scaling is broken.

At that point we’re back in warframe of 3 years ago, a decisively worse game.

Oddly enough ember was stupid OP then.

And I see were also back to my 1st point, ember is worse then her contemporaries in any conceivable way, scaling being the cherry on top.

Im glad you admit that people should just not play her though, and move on with the game. To bad this is an ember thread though.

Ember can only exist in sortie 3 by spamming her 2 and 3 for CC, I thought she was a damage frame lol. Can I see your solo run?

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

At that point we’re back in warframe of 3 years ago, a decisively worse game.

And I see were also back to my 1st point, ember is worse then her contemporaries in any conceivable way, scaling being the cherry on top.

Im glad you admit that people should just not play her though, and move on with the game. To bad this is an ember thread though.

Ember can only do sortie 3 by spamming her 2 and 3 for CC, I thought she was a damage frame lol.

classic trying to put words in peoples mouths. ember is great. some like her some don't and that's fine. shes capable of doing sortie 3 which is the highest of non endurance content. i call that working as intended. don't want to use heat? don't. there are 33 other frames. you'll find one that fits your playstyle i'm sure.

[BigPapiPimp]

6 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

classic trying to put words in peoples mouths. ember is great. some like her some don't and that's fine. shes capable of doing sortie 3 which is the highest of non endurance content. i call that working as intended. don't want to use heat? don't. there are 33 other frames. you'll find one that fits your playstyle i'm sure.

You said if you want a CC frame then play another frame, that ember is not a CC frame.

Ember does not deal damage with her abilities at sortie level. Ember cannot survive the damage of sortie level enemies. Ember can only exist in Sortie level games by using CC, her accelerant fireblast being the only reliable combo. Otherwise she has to dash away or hide.

Can I see your sortie level gameplay? I want to see this insane ember damage %. Oh and use just her abilities, to be honest to her style.

No words were put in your mouth, just scroll up.

So unless this Warframe TM 2015, that exactly what you said.

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[BigPapiPimp]

11 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

classic trying to put words in peoples mouths. ember is great. some like her some don't and that's fine. shes capable of doing sortie 3 which is the highest of non endurance content. i call that working as intended. don't want to use heat? don't. there are 33 other frames. you'll find one that fits your playstyle i'm sure.

I find it funny how you complain about people putting words in your mouth then do the exact same.

I never said I don’t mod for heat with ember. I never said I disliked her. 

I never said ember should be totally independent at high levels, but you dishonestly insinuate that she operates perfectly fine at such levels when doing solo.

Even if embers entire team holds her hand, CC the enemy, and buffs her, she still deals trash for damage.

You admit she is a heat damage dealing frame, that the CC from her dot is a secondary focus as a part of her damage type,that she does not control a crowd of enemies.

You admit that other frames are capable of out doing her in every mechanic (or at least, you stop directly bringing it up like volts wall, instead listing damage combination type erroneously, as if it contributed something or changed the reality of embers circumstance).

I think you should be honest when talking about her damage, and stop trying to skirt to different scenarios after I tell you what’s what.

[EinheriarJudith]

9 minutes ago, BigPapiPimp said:

I find it funny how you complain about people putting words in your mouth then do the exact same.

I never said I don’t mod for heat with ember. I never said I disliked her. 

I never said ember should be totally independent at high levels, but you dishonestly insinuate that she operates perfectly fine at such levels when doing solo.

Even if embers entire team holds her hand, CC the enemy, and buffs her, she still deals trash for damage.

You admit she is a heat damage dealing frame, that the CC from her dot is a secondary focus as a part of her damage type,that she does not control a crowd of enemies.

You admit that other frames are capable of out doing her in every mechanic (or at least, you stop directly bringing it up like volts wall, instead listing damage combination type erroneously, as if it contributed something or changed the reality of embers circumstance).

I think you should be honest when talking about her damage, and stop trying to skirt to different scenarios after I tell you what’s what.

apparently you haven't been paying attention. i've said she boosts heat damage and gave each combination for elements that apply to both accelerant and fireblast and those that only apply to fireblast.

and i didnt accuse you of anything i simply said if you don't like using heat than don't. no one is holding your hand or holding you back do what you want but you aren't going to sit here put garbage on a plate and expect anyone to eat it.

i didnt know team work was hand holding. also show me where i said solo? you make some pretty asinine assumption. ill leave you with them.

[BigPapiPimp]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

apparently you haven't been paying attention. i've said she boosts heat damage and gave each combination for elements that apply to both accelerant and fireblast and those that only apply to fireblast.

and i didnt accuse you of anything i simply said if you don't like using heat than don't. no one is holding your hand or holding you back do what you want but you aren't going to sit here put garbage on a plate and expect anyone to eat it.

i didnt know team work was hand holding. also show me where i said solo? you make some pretty asinine assumption. ill leave you with them.

You say these things in direct response to me, while quoting my posts, you can’t have it both ways; I’m responding to/I’m not responding to you.

Again, your quick to accuse someone of something, then turn around and do the exact same thing to them.

In my very 1st response to you I cited the changes to embers fireblast. I have repeatedly stated I do mod for heat damage and appreciate the added damage from her 3’s ring. Is that the supposed “garbage on a plate”?

in the end your posts are the ones that reek, smeared in hypocrisy and carrying an inability to directly refute anything I’ve said, instead padding every line with some half related tidbit of information. Did you know we combine cold and electric to make magnetic damage?

> tell me where I said something that you said to make a point

> ? jpeg

Again, words in who’s mouth again? I was using it as an example of your supposed view of her health endgame ability. What does carrying mean btw? Carrying a poor damage dealing frame to boot.

Im fine with you bowing out after exposing your <fun> reasoning and hypocrisy. Makes no difference then you posting another “non-responsive” response lol.

Edit: f is for friends

Edited March 20, 2018 by BigPapiPimp