PoE is in Serious Need of Attention & Analysis Before Any Other Open Worlds, Including Venus, Are Inserted Into Warframe With Glaring Flaws (Idea Tennis)

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

Hey all, this is idea tennis, where players can bat ideas around in an effort to improve on something (PoE & open world in this case). Please scroll down & move between pages if you have time to read & contribute to introduction, progression, revision, & refinement of ideas. I really hope the text walls aren't putting anyone off.

The title of this topic has been changed before so please take the time to understand context. The first & second pages are mostly about mining.

So, mining is boring. What shall we do?

Let's start with a comparison of mining & fishing, so that we can figure out why mining is boring, more so than fishing, & possibly draw from the aspects of fishing to make mining feel more meaningful, because fishing is leagues ahead of mining as it currently stands. I've heard plenty of times players joking that fishing is end game, but not mining. I wonder why...

When fishing, you need the right spear, the right bait, you need to be at the correct location, usually having to be at said location at either day or night, with gear that makes fishing easier, & warframes that can perform certain aspects of fishing better than others. Once all that gear & info is gathered & are actually fishing, you can actually see the fish, in all their appearances, sizes, & features, & actively target the fish you actually want.

When mining, you bumble around the plains, looking for rocks with randomized ore veins, which are red, & geodes, which are blue, then doodle on them with a laser. If you trace well enough, you get 2x the metal or gem, & a slightly higher chance at one of two of the rarest gems if you have the advanced cutter. That's it for mining.

Players are given no indication which specific metal or gem will pop out of these ore veins & geodes, outside the red & blue color distinguishing between ore veins & geodes. To get a specific metal or gem, you have to hope rng is on your side & the rock you drew a phallus on magically shoots out what you want. (By the way, the rocks do sometimes make you draw a phallus, even if it does look like a deformed one.)

With that comparison we can see what makes fishing on the plains more appealing than mining the plains. It takes more thinking & planning, & when all is done you'll probably have 5-20 of the specific fish you wanted, depending on the fish, & that's per single use of the bait needed, let alone the entire sitting in the fishing session.

1. Gems & ores should have specific places where they are more likely to spawn. So if Auron is gold, then its ore should be more likely to spawn deep inside the grineer caves, just as the sentient gems should be more likely to spawn around the sentient remnants & corpses littering the plains.

2. When viewing an ore vein or geode, there should be a color &/or effect that tells the player what it is before even mining it.

3. Extra mining tools could be introduced, along with new mining mechanics. One piece of gear could be an outline tracer, which would allow a player to trace the cut path before beginning to cut, so they don't have to worry about the outline disappearing. Another could be a drill, a simple one using a metal bit, & advanced one using energy, which would be used on pressure points along the cut path, enabling players to not require cutting the ore vein or geode all in one go.

4. If a location has a high concentration of veins & geodes, then there is a disposable excavator that players can risk calling in for the chance to strike it rich on a deep node inaccessible otherwise. The first step is using a ground penetrating scanner, which is also disposable, but is easier to build than an excavator, that can locate deep nodes & potentially identify what the resource(s) is/are (most will have a mix of gems & metals together). The second step is the excavator. *edit* This is apparently similar to Firefall thumping. _{I didn't know... I don't/didn't play Firefall.} Anyway, I don't think DE can just rip the Firefall thumping system, but if they could, or used a system that's "different just enough",  Free Roam & post bounty roaming would have to change to have enemy levels reflect a player's or squad's conclave score, or other form of strength. Now if this idea were a possibility, fishing would have to change as well, because then mining will be interesting & fishing would become boring in comparison.

Edited May 9, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom
Active corrections & idea revisions

[peterc3]

Do you really want to have to craft a bunch of things to get a chance to make certain ores/gems to spawn? Have to break down ores/gems into various bits to make other things to get chances to find better ones?

3 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

disposable excavator that players can risk calling in

Apparently every person played Firefall.

There is no risk. In the game at this moment, there would functionally be no risk to the Excavator. It would be a free chance at a bunch of resources.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

Well, I was worried about there not being enough risk so that idea doesn't have to happen. It was just an idea, better than no idea. I do like the other ones though, as their purpose isn't too different from the fishing equivalents. Luminos Dye as to Cut Tracer, Pharoma as to Pressure Point Drill.

The point of the ideas is to better engage players, so if these ideas were to become real, the rewards for the extra work a player puts in should show.

Currently, getting a perfect cut, which is 5 filled gem icons, gets 2x the resource. So with these extra tools, the perfect cut could be increased to 3x to reflect the extra work on the player's part. In this case, the first 3 gem icons gets 2x, then the 4th & 5th go to 3x.

The outline highlight when mining was first introduced with PoE lasted ~4s (guess), & is now 8s. With the Cut Tracer, that would have to be reduced again.

Keep in mind these ideas are coming from a console player's PoV. I understand a mouse is easier to control with mining as is, & is thus more tolerable, so I don't know how these ideas would translate to PC.

I do know the frustration between building the 3 Nosam Cutters, each one invalidating the last. Maybe, the 3 cutters could be consolidated into just 1 Nosam Cutter which could be upgraded by spending Ostron Standing with Suumbaat. Like how the Synthesis Scanner can be upgraded with standing from Simaris. When you earn enough standing, you would take it to Suumbaat to get an uprade to accuracy, range, & ore & gem detection radius. The Cut Tracer & Pressure Point Drill could follow the same concept.

Edited April 2, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom
Idea revision

[Jade-Lion]

I think there are a few things that need to be addressed to make mining a bit more fun.

1. Clearly identifiable areas are required. When finishing we know to go to the large lake, the Geyser Pond, or the Ocean if we are after a specific type of fish. There really isn't anything like that in the Plains for mining, beyond that the two main mining caves on the one side of the map, but those are not gem/ore specific and they are RNG based which means they could have the wrong thing or none at all. I feel this is easily answered by using the various deep underground Grineer caves and permanently assigning each one a given gem/ore combo.

2. Adjust the mini map so that the Mining Spot icons are color coded based on if the deposit is a gem or some kind of ore. While this would be of little use in the aforementioned cave mining concept, it would make zipping around the plains far less of a pain, since you have to often mine out a ton of Ore Veins just to clear the map so you can find the Gem veins. Additionally the mini map seems to adjust its distance ratio randomly which can really throw off your guess as to where the mining spot is.

3. If you clear an area so you can do some mining, it needs to stay cleared. I have lost track of the number of times a gun ship has randomly flown overhead and splattered my frame across the landscape because I was focused on the mini game of staying on the lines. Failing keeping the area clear, could you at least add some cover options to the terrain so you can at least get away from a gun ship barrage?

4. When RNG refuses to pay out, you need to feel like it wasn't a waste. Other than crafting the new Arcanes, there really isn't a use for the gems, sure you could trade it for standing in Cetus but fishing is far better for that. I would suggest adding a few additional things that use the more common gems as components. Additionally like with fishing and its trophies, there really needs to be some Gem, Ore, and Refined variant ship decorations available for crafting. This in turn applies to Clan Dojo Decorations as well, which in turn means that even if you are really after Sentium or Nyth but get a bunch of Azurite, you still feel like you can do something with it.

5. The Mining Locations need to refresh or pop up more consistently with the map. I usually do my mining by running a Zephyr and just leaving the Cutter in hand. My Sentinel with Sweeper Prime takes care of most enemies while turbulence keeps me safe. Interesting thing is that I can zip around and have no mining locations shown, but if I quickly switch into operator mode and back, it is like the mining radar resets, and I was actually standing in the middle of 6-8 deposits, but wouldn't have known it without the refresh. I can only assume that part of many peoples frustration is that some times they can't find any places to mine even when using the highest level cutter.

That's just a few thoughts I have had on the subject.

 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

22 hours ago, Jade-Lion said:

I think there are a few things that need to be addressed to make mining a bit more fun.

1. Clearly identifiable areas are required. When finishing we know to go to the large lake, the Geyser Pond, or the Ocean if we are after a specific type of fish. There really isn't anything like that in the Plains for mining, beyond that the two main mining caves on the one side of the map, but those are not gem/ore specific and they are RNG based which means they could have the wrong thing or none at all. I feel this is easily answered by using the various deep underground Grineer caves and permanently assigning each one a given gem/ore combo.

2. Adjust the mini map so that the Mining Spot icons are color coded based on if the deposit is a gem or some kind of ore. While this would be of little use in the aforementioned cave mining concept, it would make zipping around the plains far less of a pain, since you have to often mine out a ton of Ore Veins just to clear the map so you can find the Gem veins. Additionally the mini map seems to adjust its distance ratio randomly which can really throw off your guess as to where the mining spot is.

3. If you clear an area so you can do some mining, it needs to stay cleared. I have lost track of the number of times a gun ship has randomly flown overhead and splattered my frame across the landscape because I was focused on the mini game of staying on the lines. Failing keeping the area clear, could you at least add some cover options to the terrain so you can at least get away from a gun ship barrage?

4. When RNG refuses to pay out, you need to feel like it wasn't a waste. Other than crafting the new Arcanes, there really isn't a use for the gems, sure you could trade it for standing in Cetus but fishing is far better for that. I would suggest adding a few additional things that use the more common gems as components. Additionally like with fishing and its trophies, there really needs to be some Gem, Ore, and Refined variant ship decorations available for crafting. This in turn applies to Clan Dojo Decorations as well, which in turn means that even if you are really after Sentium or Nyth but get a bunch of Azurite, you still feel like you can do something with it.

5. The Mining Locations need to refresh or pop up more consistently with the map. I usually do my mining by running a Zephyr and just leaving the Cutter in hand. My Sentinel with Sweeper Prime takes care of most enemies while turbulence keeps me safe. Interesting thing is that I can zip around and have no mining locations shown, but if I quickly switch into operator mode and back, it is like the mining radar resets, and I was actually standing in the middle of 6-8 deposits, but wouldn't have known it without the refresh. I can only assume that part of many peoples frustration is that some times they can't find any places to mine even when using the highest level cutter.

That's just a few thoughts I have had on the subject.

 

Exactly. I even like your mini-map idea. If coupled with my idea that players should be able to identify the metal or gem before mining, then the mining radar would show red & blue circles, which can then be inspected. Once inspected, the red or blue circle will change to the resource image depicting the metal or gem. Check out my original post if you will.

We can also add in a co-op aspect, where every squad member has the same ore vein & geode spawns, & when a player mines something there would be a physical resource drop that their teammates can come by to pick up as well.

Edited March 28, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

 I guess mining is the new grind that everyone hates. Can't even get others to play idea tennis with when it comes to making it a worthy addition to the game.

Oh well.

The main points.

1. Give metals & gems specific spawn locations.

"Auron" is gold, so it should spawn rarely in the lowlands, & moderately in the deepest Grineer caves. From what I know, Copper deposits tend to form in the same location as Gold, meaning "Coprun" would spawn in approximately the same locations as Auron, but would be more common, & can appear at slightly higher elevations because it's a lighter element. "Ferros", or Iron, would continue to follow this pattern, being even more common than Coprun, capable of spawning at the next highest elevation above Coprun. "Pyrol", or Pyrite, being Iron Sulfide (FeS₂), would be the most common metal above ground, & capable of appearing above Ferros, though being a sulfide mineral, requiring special circumstances to form, would overall be less common than Ferros, & potentially Coprun as well. The higher the elevation, the less common all of the metals become, though being underground or at the low part of a tall cliff face are still exceptions.

The Sentient gems can spawn, rarely, about anywhere on the plains due to Eidolon activity, but is most common by Sentient corpses & remnants, & Eidolon spawn locations (in which those spawns are at/in water, so near the large ponds & lake). Nyth would appear infrequently in the lowlands & moderately in the deep caves, because the description states that Nyth is Breath of the Eidolon trapped in molten Iradite crystal, or whatever Iradite is, which spawns only in the lowlands. Sentirum would also spawn similarly to Nyth, because blood flows downhill, but would have a slightly higher chance, over Nyth, of spawning at higher elevation, because blood eventually cauterizes & stops flowing. Again, these would be most common around Sentient corpses & remnants, & Eidolon spawns, being at a lower elevation would just push those chances a bit further.

Correct me if I'm wrong. "Azurite" is Lapis Lazuli, "Veridos" is Fluorite (green variety), "Devar" is Quartz (smoky, cloudy, or whatever), & "Crimzian" is Ruby (<not confident Crimzian is Ruby). Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

DE, please apply geology to mining.

Blueprint requirements may have to change for this to be implemented.

2. Identifiable ore veins & geodes.

Says it on the tin. Auron veins have a visibly reflective metallic gold appearance, Coprun would be reddish brown, Ferros would be dark grey, & Pyrol would be "deceptively golden". Take advantage of shape & sheen changes to allow players to differentiate between Pyrol & Auron. Pyrol would be more angled & blocky with a "greyish gold" color. Auron would be rounded & amorphous looking in comparison to Pyrol, with the classic & true brilliant gold color.

The gems would follow. Again, Azurite is Lapis Lazuli, Veridos is Green Fluorite, Devar is Smoky/Cloudy Quartz, & Crimzian is Ruby.

Sentirum would appear yellow with green, orange, blood orange, & red reflectiveness, appearing swirly as if it used to be fluid (Sentient blood). Nyth would be pink with dark blue & violet reflectiveness (Eidolon Breath in Iradite).

The radar on the Advanced Cutter should show red & blue circles on the mini-map. Red is metal. Blue is gems.

3. New tools, new mechanics, & possible reworks to the old cutters & the way mining is performed.

When mining first came out with PoE, the trace line demanded perfection & only stayed for ~4s (barring the weapon swap glitch), though it seemed to variate randomly. We now have the same trace line, but it lasts 8s. The chance of randomly getting a Sentient gem from geodes was 10% at base going to 15% from a perfect cut, or 5 filled gem icons. It's now 15% at base, going to 30% from a perfect cut. A perfect cut from either metal or crystal veins will double the resource in any case a Sentient gem isn't given.

Points 1 & 2 would invalidate the purpose of perfect cuts as a means to earn Sentient gems, so we have to do something else with them.

I originally proposed the idea of a Cut Tracer, used to paint the cut path so that it will be visible longer, & a Mine Drill, whose purpose is to put holes to create checkpoints in the metal or crystal vein. The player can decide the location of where to put these checkpoints.

As it currently is, the gem icons that determine cut quality, have predetermined randomized locations along the cut path which are what trigger an increase in cut quality. With the Mine Drill & Cut Tracer, these randomized points would be removed & the outline itself will have to change to instead reflect the overall accuracy of the player in following the line.

To facilitate these changes, we could use 3d decals & graphics to visualize metal & crystal veins. This means that instead of using the current 2d red & blue icons that only appear on top of rocks, there would be a sense of depth applied with ore & crystal veins that temporarily overwrites the surface of the rock they're covering. The idea of point 2 would tie into this.

I understand this is getting complicated, but I'll summarize the mining progression path under the ideas once I'm done.

If the Nosam Cutters are reworked, I'd say they should be consolidated into one cutter that can be upgraded. I mentioned this in a previous post on this topic. The revised Nosam Cutter could function like the Synthesis Scanner, where the player can use some standing with Suumbaat to choose an upgrade. These upgrades could be to beam range, beam accuracy, zoom level, vein sensor, & seismic radar. Upgrades don't have to be in order.

Seismic radar is what would allow a player to visualize the 3d decals & graphics of the veins along with their depth within the rock they're looking at. The usual luminous cut path no longer appears as the seismic radar overwrites it, thus it falls more so into the player's control what cut path they take, though they must still make a cut that fully encircles the contents of the metal or gem node. Similar to the luminous cut path, seismic radar turns off after 4s of firing whatever tool the player is using, & comes back after stopping. This would also enable DE to use more creative shapes in metal & gem nodes. The player must choose 2-4 different directions to make a cut from, depending on the shape of the vein & what specific metal or gem it is, when seismic radar is unlocked, & must follow the outline of the vein closely. How close they have to cut is indicated by a luminous aura colored white, yellow, orange, & red. The goal would be to cut by white to increase quality. Cutting anywhere else will increase quality slower, & damage node integrity faster. Node integrity, currently, is the bar below the cut quality gem icons.

The Cut Tracer & Mine Drill can follow the same concepts.

The Cut Tracer at base level would determine the optimal cut path, just like the current cutter. Once traced, the original luminous cut path would disappear because it was overwritten. The trace could last 20s from starting the trace, be somewhat luminous, & requires paint/chalk for ammo which can be bought for credits from Suumbaat. Since there is now a tool for creating a longer lasting cut path, the current 8s timer would need to be nerfed back to 4s. Its upgrades would be luminous duration, glow brightness, energy chisel, remote drone, & seismic radar.

Energy chisel gives the Cut Tracer unlimited ammo because it's no longer using paint/chalk, & leaves a permanently indented line that the player can follow. The glow still has limited duration so it's better not to wait.

Remote drone is an alt fire ability. When activated, the player's Warframe becomes vulnerable while control transfers to the drone. Pressing alt fire again returns to the Warframe. The purpose of the ability is to reach veins outside the firing range of the Cut Tracer. It's hard to imagine a paint/chalk gun or energy chisel firing accurately from a distance right?

The Mine Drill, being used to create check points along a cut path, would be a tool doing some delicate work. It's about as surgical as the Cutter is. Its purpose is to allow the player to take a break during a cut, doing sections at a time instead of the whole vein at once, so when a hole is drilled, all the player has to do is successfully connect the dots, or drill points, one at a time. At base, the Mine Cutter can drill small holes, then once the player starts drilling, they have to rely on sound to know their progress, if they stopped short, or went too far. If too short, the spot that was drilled can't function as a checkpoint during a cut. If too far, the energy of the drill melts the rock back into place, so same deal. The integrity bar, the bar beneath the gem icons, also goes up, jumping further still due to going too far. The player can try to create a hole for as long as they have space along a cut path, or as long as there is still integrity to use. The upgrades are bore size, subtlety, progress gauge, remote drone, & seismic radar.

Bore size makes the drill holes bigger, making them easier to connect, but makes more of the cut path unusable if the drilling is messed up. Subtlety gives the player a larger margin of error before going too far & reduces the amount of vein integrity that is lost from drilling & any mistakes from it. Progress gauge gives the player a color gauge using red, yellow/orange, & white to indicate, too short, too far, & perfect.

This should be most if not all of the changes of point 3. Time to summarize progression.

When the player starts out, they have a base Nosam Cutter without upgrades. Mining continues to work normally more or less as it is now within the changes of points 1 & 2. I believe the white luminous line could change to how I described the 3d decal & graphics as they appear with seismic radar. So if a cut is a closed shape/polygon with the luminous cut path being the outline of such, then the color red should be immediately inside, & the outside has a transition from yellow to orange to red. Trying to cut anywhere that isn't white reduces the integrity of the vein faster, which, as I stated before, is the integrity bar/gauge underneath the gem icons. Once seismic radar unlocks the ability to see the 3d image of the veins, it's similar in that there's an outline to follow, but different in that the player can choose between multiple directions & angles to cut from, surrounding the vein with a cut from a given angle.

Trying to mine Sentient gems normally without seismic radar will destroy the gem. This is because Sentient gems are derived from a biological source, making them sensitive. Sentient adaptability is irrelevant because the material is no longer living. Also because the Nosam Cutter is using an intense plasma beam (or whatever energy it uses), so in a sense it's very easy to damage objects with such a tool.

Without seismic radar, the highest number of gem icons that can be filled is 3, which will give a resource multiplier of 3x. The first gem gives a 1.5x bonus, the second giving 2x, third giving 3x. This is due to the extra work & time on a player's part, with the new tools I mentioned, to make a perfect cut. Once seismic radar is unlocked, it will then be possible to fill all 5 gem icons, which will give a resource multiplier of 5x or 6x (help me decide on this though I'm leaning towards 5), which again is due to the extra time & work from the player to make a perfect cut with all the tools at their disposal. Also, it's to show the player that the way they used to mine was an inferior method that would destroy portions of a specimen within a vein.

The power of getting a 3x or 5x resource multiplier would be important in getting rare resources, but if say that's too much (& probably will be), point 1 can have the spawn rarity of all mining resources adjusted accordingly. Remember the goal of engaging & interesting players, not making things easy.

As the player unlocks all the tools & their upgrades, mining gets both easier & more rewarding at the same time, just as consistent fishing allows players to create bait for the rare fish. This creates a sense of progression.

4. Add a cooperative element to mining.

All players should have the same mining spawns, & when a player successfully mines something, there should be a physical resource drop that squad members can pick up.

When a player makes progress on a node, but doesn't finish, that progress could be saved that a squad member can pick up on. Of course there'd be a limit to how many veins have their progress saved because of game performance, but it's to give players who aren't fully upgraded a chance to cooperate with others who are nearby them in mining progression. It is also so that when a team is fully upgraded, one of the members may not yet be good at mining on their own & comes across a difficult deposit.

In real life, miners & prospectors tend to go out in teams right? More eyes also makes finding the rare stuff faster & easier. Waypointing a mining node should show what resource it is to squad members.

This also gives a novice mining player a chance to get a Sentient gem from an upgraded & more experienced mining player, just as we can now have novice fishing players that can try to catch Glappid from a leveled fishing player that tosses out bait for Glappid. With the ability to waypoint rare mining resources, a novice miner can still be helpful to a leveled miner as an extra set of eyes, just as fishing players can waypoint the bubbling hotspots. This is effective in engaging players to work at fishing & mining, because they'll eventually want to stop sponging off of other players, but mostly because, when working with experienced players, it shows it would be faster & easier to get high end stuff if they get their gear upgraded & built as well.

I like the idea of cooperation in mining, just as players can now cooperate in fishing by throwing down Luminos Dye, Pharoma, & bait that supports the whole team, as opposed to wasting time &/or gear trying to fish alone, or in this case mine.

5. General bug fixes. Things that shouldn't happen.

There are certain locations where a mining node will spawn behind a crate that can't be shot through.

The mini-map doesn't refresh the mining radar when a player uses teleporting, dashing, & other very fast abilities. It does this to the loot radar as well. The only way it will refresh is if the player spams transference a couple time. Players shouldn't be required to spam transference just because the game is too slow to keep up with movement abilities.

With privacy set to public, sometimes, when people join, the mining radar will inexplicably stop working for the rest of that run. Players can no longer mine when this happens, even on the off chance they stumble across a mining node without the help of the radar.

Edited May 28, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

Gee, I suck at making my own topic interesting. My ideas must be morbidly awful as well if I can't even do that much. Wish there was more participation.

[Somb3rBivalve]

I wish nyth/sentirum gave double drops if you filled up all the bars with the mining tool.

Would be more interesting if there was some incentive to actually drawing the line carefully.

The fact that ores are needed in very small quantities compared to gems also adds some tedium if the majority of the stuff you are mining isnt that useful

[BlackCoMerc]

On 3/26/2018 at 8:54 PM, peterc3 said:

Do you really want to have to craft a bunch of things to get a chance to make certain ores/gems to spawn? Have to break down ores/gems into various bits to make other things to get chances to find better ones?

Apparently every person played Firefall.

There is no risk. In the game at this moment, there would functionally be no risk to the Excavator. It would be a free chance at a bunch of resources.

Firefall Thumping is what mining here should have been.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Firefall Thumping is what mining here should have been.

I actually have no idea what this is as I don't have Firefall to play. I'll check it out. The last guy who assumed I was into Firefall because of an extractor idea was worried that there's not enough inherent risk, difficulty, or something along those lines, because enemies are very weak/inconsequential when just doing Free Roam while in PoE.

I'll get back when I figure it out.

Edited April 9, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[BlackCoMerc]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

I actually have no idea what this is as I don't have Firefall to play. I'll check it out. The last guy who assumed I was into Firefall because of an extractor idea was worried that there's not enough inherent risk, difficulty, or something along those lines, because enemies are very weak/inconsequential when just doing Free Roam while in PoE.

I'll get back with an edit when I figure it out.

Go to YouTube and search Firefall Thumping.

The game itself died. Chinese money took over, tried to reduce the game to absurd amounts of repetitive grind and drove it into the ground. Seriously.

This, combined with gross mismanagement and a refusal to focus on fun, killed what could have been a great game.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

10 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Go to YouTube and search Firefall Thumping.

The game itself died. Chinese money took over, tried to reduce the game to absurd amounts of repetitive grind and drove it into the ground. Seriously.

This, combined with gross mismanagement and a refusal to focus on fun, killed what could have been a great game.

Ya I saw the thumping videos. I edited my OP to show it. If Firefall is dead now, there is a possibility DE could yoink the thumping system. I don't know if there are lawsuits about these things though.

[BlackCoMerc]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Ya I saw the thumping videos. I edited my OP to show it. If Firefall is dead now, there is a possibility DE could yoink the thumping system. I don't know if there are lawsuits about these things though.

I sincerely doubt there'd be a Suit. It's hard to copyright individual game mechanics (ask Wizards of Coast). Not to mention, Warframe could vary it, by having you call down a new extractor.in a nearby spot every few minutes as opposed to filling a single one...

At this point, Skyims watching a mining hammer animation would be better than the awful, tedious miningame we have here.

Edited April 9, 2018 by BlackCoMerc

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

27 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I sincerely doubt there'd be a Suit. It's hard to copyright individual game mechanics (ask Wizards of Coast). Not to mention, Warframe could vary it, by having you call down a new extractor.in a nearby spot every few minutes as opposed to filling a single one...

At this point, Skyims watching a mining hammer animation would be better than the awful, tedious miningame we have here.

You'd prefer to gut the current mining system entirely for an extractor based system? I was thinking within the confines of the current mini-game & looking for ways to invigorate it.

We could have both alongside each other, but we'd need a way to not make the extractors OP. Other than using conclave score for determining enemy difficulty, we'd need to make it so the extractors are more so for mining metals than gems, though you can get tiny gem hauls occasionally on the side, or the even more rare mostly gem deposit. Using conclave score, enemies that spawn to destroy the extractor would be fittingly more difficult, especially for coveted gem deposits. To prevent players purposely reducing conclave level, there will also need to be a minimum enemy level with this activity.

If this is successful, mining extractors would be considered high risk high reward, with normal mining as the safe alternative that will guarantee more consistent gem hauls when done in teams.

On top of this, we'd need a way to bring fishing into parity with this new mining system. Perhaps using net fishing, reserved for common fish.

Edited April 9, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[BlackCoMerc]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

You'd prefer to gut the current mining system entirely for an extractor based system? I was thinking within the confines of the current mini-game & looking for ways to invigorate it.

We could have both alongside each other, but we'd need a way to not make the extractors OP. Other than using conclave score for determining enemy difficulty, we'd need to make it so the extractors are more so for mining metals than gems, though you can get tiny gem hauls occasionally on the side, or the even more rare mostly gem deposit. Using conclave score, enemies that spawn to destroy the extractor would be fittingly more difficult, especially for coveted gem deposits. To prevent players purposely reducing conclave level, there will also need to be a minimum enemy level with this activity.

If this is successful, mining extractors would be considered high risk high reward, with normal mining as the safe alternative that will guarantee more consistent gem hauls when done in teams.

On top of this, we'd need a way to bring fishing into parity with this new mining system. Perhaps using net fishing, reserved for common fish.

Defending extractors: high yield, high reward. 

Regular mining: low rewards...(higher than now) but also low/no risk.

I think that works. But no energy cannisters. These extractors belong to us, not the grineer.

As for fishing...don't change it. Just...don't gate stuff behind it. Let it pay a bit of rep and some credits. Let it be the optional, just for fun mini game it always should have been.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

46 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

As for fishing... don't change it. Just... don't gate stuff behind it. Let it pay a bit of rep and some credits. Let it be the optional, just for fun mini game it always should have been.

Some people think it isn't realistic enough. Like they find spontaneously spawning fish odd, or that the hotspots make it too easy to find masses of fish. I can understand the sentiment. I also agree that bps shouldn't be heavily gated behind fishing or mining, but I believe DEs vision for the two activities was to have the components & resources you earned from them have a use in some equipment somewhere, just that in PoE it's overboard. Everything in PoE requires fishing, mining, & even hunting at the same time, as opposed to just some high end items.

I personally think fishing & hunting should have more use in disposable non-essential gear, such as integration into our current gear & new/future disposables, & as a source for standing, perhaps cosmetics & decorations. Mining could also be used for some, though I think it should be few disposables, but is more so for permanent equipment, as it... sort of is now. Fishing can be used in certain permanent equipment, depending, like maybe some items require chemicals sourced from fish, but it certainly wouldn't be common.

What I really enjoy about both systems is that players give an active &/or concerted effort for earning resources. This can have implications for resource farming throughout the rest of the game. Farming a certain resource could be a specific activity instead of passively earning them as we genocide the grineer.

Edited April 9, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Ham_Grenabe]

My problem with mining (and fishing) is that they are almost, but not quite entirely, unlike playing Warframe. A lot of people enjoy what they variously describe as a "break" or a chance to relax from the normal reckless pace of the game, but I want to acquire resources the way every other part of the game has you require them: missions, fighting, and generally causing a ruckus.

Fishing isn't even a bad minigame, as they go (mining is...mining sucks canal water) but it is really not what I came here for. 

In the future, I hope that you acquire the ineffable moistness of a Bloodshark liver by hurling yourself, and your sharkwing, into the inky depths to do battle with an entire hunting pack of Bloodsharks. And if you're good at it, you might attract the attention of a Frumious Bloodshark, who has FOUR livers. I am not going to be happy standing next to a puddle spearing lesser stankwallows just so I can rank up enough to build bait for the greater stankwallow. I've done that.

And when it comes to mining, I say let the bad guys mine the gems, and then just kill them for it. I'm a Massacre with Feet, why the hell am I busy mining crystal deposits? 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

36 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

My problem with mining (and fishing) is that they are almost, but not quite entirely, unlike playing Warframe. A lot of people enjoy what they variously describe as a "break" or a chance to relax from the normal reckless pace of the game, but I want to acquire resources the way every other part of the game has you require them: missions, fighting, and generally causing a ruckus.

Fishing isn't even a bad minigame, as they go (mining is...mining sucks canal water) but it is really not what I came here for. 

In the future, I hope that you acquire the ineffable moistness of a Bloodshark liver by hurling yourself, and your sharkwing, into the inky depths to do battle with an entire hunting pack of Bloodsharks. And if you're good at it, you might attract the attention of a Frumious Bloodshark, who has FOUR livers. I am not going to be happy standing next to a puddle spearing lesser stankwallows just so I can rank up enough to build bait for the greater stankwallow. I've done that.

And when it comes to mining, I say let the bad guys mine the gems, and then just kill them for it. I'm a Massacre with Feet, why the hell am I busy mining crystal deposits? 

Lol, I considered a net fishing addition. Maybe your thoughts here would help on that.

Some players like @BlackCoMerc like fishing as is for the relaxing aspect, but if we could make active hunts that are gripping that would be awesome.

For your mining idea to work, we could use new bounties based around the caves & other massive rocky areas. For shark hunting, we'd need a space expansion for the plains & arch-sub integration.

Edited April 9, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On April 9, 2018 at 4:03 PM, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

On April 9, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Ham_Grenabe said:

My problem with mining (and fishing) is that they are almost, but not quite entirely, unlike playing Warframe. A lot of people enjoy what they variously describe as a "break" or a chance to relax from the normal reckless pace of the game, but I want to acquire resources the way every other part of the game has you require them: missions, fighting, and generally causing a ruckus.

Fishing isn't even a bad minigame, as they go (mining is...mining sucks canal water) but it is really not what I came here for. 

In the future, I hope that you acquire the ineffable moistness of a Bloodshark liver by hurling yourself, and your sharkwing, into the inky depths to do battle with an entire hunting pack of Bloodsharks. And if you're good at it, you might attract the attention of a Frumious Bloodshark, who has FOUR livers. I am not going to be happy standing next to a puddle spearing lesser stankwallows just so I can rank up enough to build bait for the greater stankwallow. I've done that.

And when it comes to mining, I say let the bad guys mine the gems, and then just kill them for it. I'm a Massacre with Feet, why the hell am I busy mining crystal deposits? 

Lol, I considered a net fishing addition. Maybe your thoughts here would help on that.

Some players like @BlackCoMerc like fishing as is for the relaxing aspect, but if we could make active hunts that are gripping that would be awesome.

For your mining idea to work, we could use new bounties based around the caves & other massive rocky areas. For shark hunting, we'd need a space expansion for the plains & arch-sub integration.

I know, we can have deep water net fishing where as we are netting the usual stankwallows, bloodsharks show to steal your booty. You can avoid & evade, or kill &/or catch them for massive rep & their parts, at the same time. No need to decide between donating or hogging, there's just too much.

If you use bait, the chance bloodsharks show up increases, going up with rarer bait. If you use glappid bait, there's a fair chance the frumious bloodshark shows up.

One problem I see though, is how will this work with pond & lake fishing? I mean we could make it work with lake fishing, but I think we'd drop the ball at pond fishing.

The only way I see it with pond fishing is a new, large land predator shows up, & maybe a deep reservoir connecting a couple ponds is introduced as part of the fishing expansion. (nah, a reservoir doesn't make sense)

Fishing the plains is actually pretty confusing. How do the pond & lake fish avoid overfishing if they're only capable of surviving in those places & why do ocean fish guts rustle their jimmies?

I think the reservoir idea could explain a portion of it (though again, that's pushing logical boundaries), but really, the plains need occasional monsoon weather events (it could use more diverse weather in general), & during those events & for a portion of time after, you can find temporary streams & puddles where the pond & lake fish are flopping to & fro. The water level in all the ponds & lake goes up too. Pond & lake fish that are close to or connected to a bay, sea, or ocean, as I understand, are usually migratory, meaning the buggers should be everywhere. The ponds & lake are just the breeding grounds they evolved to consider safe or some such, explaining why those spots are exclusive to those fish. Having a spot exclusive to them doesn't mean they're common in those locations. In fact, IRL, they're actually >more difficult< to find at their breeding grounds because the most you'll find are eggs & fresh hatched fry. The location is exclusive to the fish, BUT, the fish aren't exclusive to the location, especially the Cuthol. Why is a crustacean land locked? No sense.

Again, breeding grounds are just that though. The pond & lake fish should probably be moved to the bay, sea, or ocean like everything else, especially considering that the ponds & lake are closer to the bay than salmon are to the ocean.

I'm now off topic.

I'll be making a new topic about this fishing nonsense... or I'll edit the title to reflect an objective change.

Edited April 29, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Ham_Grenabe]

15 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Lol, I considered a net fishing addition. Maybe your thoughts here would help on that.

Some players like @BlackCoMerc like fishing as is for the relaxing aspect, but if we could make active hunts that are gripping that would be awesome.

For your mining idea to work, we could use new bounties based around the caves & other massive rocky areas. For shark hunting, we'd need a space expansion for the plains & arch-sub integration.

The tension between "I want it to be like the rest of the game" and "I like it because it's not like the rest of the game" is probably insurmountable, although bounty-like "catch these horrible dangerous creatures" vs. at-your-own-pace fishing might be a way to address it. And I'm not saying it's wrong to like the contrasting pace of fishing vs. fighting, either, I also do sometimes too. Just most of the time, I wish I was doing other things that involved more face shooting and explosions.

The bigger issue is one you mention at the very end -- some of what I want requires new integrations and locations, and isn't just something you can toss in off the cuff.

If there are ever new or more combat-oriented ways to fish/mine/log/knit, they'll most likely come along with new environments, since they'd require scaffold built into the environment to really work. 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On April 10, 2018 at 7:35 AM, Ham_Grenabe said:

The tension between "I want it to be like the rest of the game" and "I like it because it's not like the rest of the game" is probably insurmountable, although bounty-like "catch these horrible dangerous creatures" vs. at-your-own-pace fishing might be a way to address it. And I'm not saying it's wrong to like the contrasting pace of fishing vs. fighting, either, I also do sometimes too. Just most of the time, I wish I was doing other things that involved more face shooting and explosions.

Yes, @BlackCoMerc & I were talking about making bulk farming more inherently risky & more suited for common resources. So if a mining mechanic or method similar to "Firefall Thumping" were put into PoE & any other future mining areas, it'd be more difficult, & be better for earning Ferros, Pyrol, & Devar more so than any other ore & gem. This way, the relaxed at your own pace method still has its purposes.

If you check out the net fishing idea, I'd say it follows a similar trend. Rare fish would be exceedingly difficult to bulk farm even with net fishing, but in the case they are successfully, the frumious bloodshark you mentioned has a good chance of showing up to jack most or all of it. I didn't mention yet but I think you could & should be able to create a frumious bloodshark lure with caught regular bloodsharks.

I wouldn't exclude the possibility of an expansion to the plains. Since anything beyond the energy barriers or underwater is inaccessible, I would think that actually grants DE some creative liberty to those areas because through being inaccessible, they both have no current significance to players & are graphically & functionally immature. Basically they are still potential 'what if' areas.

Edited April 11, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[CortiWins]

I see fishing and mining as more of a timewaste that exists because open worlds are supposed to have that and what would an open world be good for if not to include wasted time by walking from A to B and collect stuff in a timewasting way.

[Ham_Grenabe]

2 hours ago, CortiWins said:

I see fishing and mining as more of a timewaste that exists because open worlds are supposed to have that and what would an open world be good for if not to include wasted time by walking from A to B and collect stuff in a timewasting way.

You know, that's an interesting point - we're all used to the things an open world "should have" that we tend to ask how to make those things better, rather than ask whether they should be there at all. 

I shouldn't ask "why am I mining this rock instead of stealing shipments of it from the Grineer" but "why do I even need to take rocks from the ground here?"

Edited April 11, 2018 by Ham_Grenabe

[BlackCoMerc]

3 hours ago, CortiWins said:

I see fishing and mining as more of a timewaste that exists because open worlds are supposed to have that and what would an open world be good for if not to include wasted time by walking from A to B and collect stuff in a timewasting way.

That pretty much mirrors how I feel about it.

Why add PVP at all? Because every shooter has to have it, right? Right? 

I mean, why copy Rocket League? Because it was popular at the time.

Why have mining and fishing in an action game? Because...Open World. They ALL have it. So we have to do it, too. 

Honestly, this was valuable time that could have been - and needed to be - spent on the core game. 

I mean, we got fishing. In an open world. Where we also got barely functional flight, enemies with unlimited range and vision, terrible, low effort filler "Bounty" missions...in light of how bad PoE ended up being, how in the world would this time not have been better spent on things to do in the open plains with the CORE game play? Every time I think about PoE, I just log into Destiny 2 and do a patrol or two instead. For all its missteps - some of which Bungie admitted and fixed already - it does open world content far, far better than Warframe. 

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

You know, that's an interesting point - we're all used to the things an open world "should have" that we tend to ask how to make those things better, rather than ask whether they should be there at all. 

I shouldn't ask "why am I mining this rock instead of stealing shipments of it from the Grineer" but "why do I even need to take rocks from the ground here?"

Spot on.