Limbo: Before the Inevitable Rework, a quick QoL

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

On 3/31/2018 at 10:39 PM, TKDancer said:

as a limbo main, limbo being my most played frame out of over 1000 hours:

there is literally no gitting gud or learning to play and no its not the same because stasis is a thing now

limbo is an annoyance when one joins ur team and you arent playing one of the frames that ignore the rift (mesa, excal, ivara), he doesnt need a rework, he needs QoL so people stop leaving lobbies when they see a limbo

I second this. He needs QoL adjustments in a lot of areas, but not necessarily a new kit. I'm just not sure what QoL would be the right answer because the Rift is complicated in team play.

Limbo is one of my top 5 in my 1500 hours of play. I find, as powerful as he is, I spend more effort holding back for the sake of my team than the effort I get to put into actually killing things. More so now than before the rework even.

For one, I shouldn't have to build for the minimum possible range just to avoid pulling all of Lua into the Rift.

Rift Walk leaving portals all over the place for poor unsuspecting allies to fall into doesn't make anyone happy (including Limbo who accidentally backtracks into his own portal when dodging- maybe that's just me?). But, with QoL adjustments to Rift interactions that may not end up being a problem.

Banish being a large cone became a detriment to his gameplay for me when not solo because it's difficult to precisely control who you pull in without pulling in all of Bolivia. I understand why they changed it to only affect the same plane, but not the cone. We have enough aoe with Cataclysm and Rift Surge, so It'd be nice if Banish at least went to "Banish target and (x) adjacent enemies in a radius" if not back to single target.

Locking other players out of their preferred playstyle completely with a snap of my fingers is always bad. I usually try to keep Stasis on in short bursts, rather than the insanely long maximum duration possible, to lessen the detriment, but the casting time isn't very conducive to that strategy. It'd be nice if Stasis automatically froze enemies in short bursts on and off throughout the duration of the toggle. It would alleviate the issue of built-up projectiles, would allow allies to continue their run and gun for the most part, and would give time to avoid incoming enemy fire and take that extra second to line up a nice headshot on your targets. People never liked my suggestion to change it entirely to a slow, so that's my back-up.

Rift Surge, with the augment, is amazing. But spreading more rift in the current limbo environment is not so good. I'm not sure what tweak could improve that off the top of my head, honestly. Maybe change it to (x) targets rather than all in the radius to go along with my Banish suggestion? Really, if Banish went back to single target Rift Surge could be fine as is, now having the ability to precisely target small groups of enemies to pull back in in combination of Rift Surge instead of massive groups.

Cataclysm I think is fine as is for the most part.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by (PS4)Riko_113

[Pizzarugi]

5 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

you can apply that logic to pretty much every support power. you know how #*!%ing bad it is for a self damage reliant Chroma to be forced to be invulnerable by a Harrow? I have to leave every group with a Harrow because of that! just... seriously, git gud if you don't want to use melee, use powers. if you don't want to use melee, nor powers, ignore and move on. this game doesn't revolve around you and if another player doesn't change their way of life to fit your current mood doesn't mean he or his frame is trolling you. you are just an entitled brat too angry to think about what is happening around him, regurgitating crap on the forums we see every other day. I bet you also feel like YOU are the one that will finally reach DE. you will make that one point that never was made before. just... no. and they don't need to hear it again and again to maybe notice there is a problem, because DE is not a bunch of hacks, they actually look and their statistics and make decisions based on actual situations and events, not your hurt feelings.

get over it. get good.

Again, I'll repeat what I said earlier: If players have to change how they play when Limbo is present, or Limbo has to play very specific builds to not disrupt his team, the problem is on Limbo. Literally no other frame in the game requires people to change their behavior to fit the other's playstyle when they're in the team. Mesa doesn't need to change when Frost puts down a snow globe, Valkyr doesn't need to change when Zephyr carpet bombs the area with tornadoes, desecrate Nekros doesn't have to change when getting teammates who have terrible slash damage. Harrow ulting and disrupting Chroma still isn't demanding the latter change how he plays to work with the former, a couple seconds of invulnerability isn't ruining his ability to build up vex armor.

People shouldn't have to change when Limbo joins, drops a max range cataclysm, and applies stasis to lock the room down. And no, Limbo shouldn't be forced to play a minimum range build either, he should be just as free to run whatever build he wants.

I love Limbo's kit, I really do. I'd absolutely love to play or even main him, but he needs some of his disruptive mechanics looked at. You don't need to change his abilities at all, just make it so he doesn't disrupt peoples' gunplay.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[PsiWarp]

Honestly, the problem is that the tradeoffs to offset the benefits provided by Limbo are too extreme on players that aren't the ones using him. Limbo is always in control of his powers, so to him it's as simple as using his powers in different ways or turning them off; of course, this only applies when there is only 1 Limbo in the squad, multiple Limbos is just a chaotic mess.

His teammates don't have that luxury. They have to rely on Limbo to exercise control for them and react accordingly with reduced options. See it from their perspective:

Non-Limbos

• Relies on Limbo to take them into the Rift via passive, 1, and 4. Can also be forced out by 1 & 4.
• Option to exit Rift via rolling if dealing with passive's portal or Banish. Only options to exit Rift with Cataclysm are leaving it or go Operator.
• Only available attack option when dealing with Rift-bound enemies but players themselves not in Rift is using abilities; the reverse is also true but includes rolling out, if passive's portal or Banish, as well as using Operator mode to fight.
• Relies on Limbo to resume their Rift-bound projectiles. Option to use abilities and melee, or overfill Rift with gunfire to end Stasis early (bad idea)
• Relies on Limbo to blow up Cataclysm to interact with certain key objects that exist inside it. Only available option is Operator mode to exit Rift to interact with said objects.
• Passive's portal, 1 & 4 can interrupt and cancel certain interactions such as hacking in progress if applied during it (why is this "feature" still in the game).

And this is only part of what they need to already know just to work well with a Limbo on their team. Are the benefits really worth all this if it can destroy the fun other people are trying to have?

I think there are solutions that don't involve changing his kit around too much, simply by giving teammates more options to deal with the Rift when it is being used:

1. A way to enter the Rift when fighting any Rift-bound enemy, so weapons are always relevant.
2. A balanced way to use primary & secondary weapons without requiring Limbo to turn off Stasis or prematurely forcing it off.
3. A more general way to interact with objects on the opposite plane as you, without depending on Operator mode.

Examples:

1. Sprint + touch a Rift-bound enemy = banish yourself for 15 seconds.
2. Sprint, Slide, and/or Bullet Jump in Rift to resume personal Rift-bound projectiles. Ranged weapon damage that hit Rift-bound enemies during Stasis are stored and dealt when said enemies exit the Rift. Melee weapon damage and ability damage are unchanged.
   • Coincidentally, Slide and Bullet Jump would make beam weapons usable during Stasis.
3. All objects that require the action key to interact will show players the prompt when they go up to them, no matter which dimension they are in. When interacting with objects, players are temporarily forced into the dimension that the object resides in. Once they are done, they return to the Rift if they have Banish or are inside Cataclysm, or vice versa, exit the Rift and return to the Material Plane if not affected by Banish or Cataclysm.
   • If you need a similar example, this is like Ivara using Prowl and shooting alarming weapons, which will break her out of her invisibility, but cloak her again once she stops shooting those loud weapons. The buff from Prowl is not cancelled (unless she uses maneuvers besides rolling), just like Banish's buff will not be cancelled if you're just interacting with objects.

Edited April 2, 2018 by PsiWarp
added example solutions

[ShogunGunshow]

Honestly, his core mechanic is flawed by default. His whole gimmick is removing things from the field of play and only able to be interacted with via his own personal buff. It adds an annoying layer to combat that no-one on your pick-up squad asked for or desired. Unless that is addressed, no amount of 'tweaks' are going to make him welcome. 

 

Like, so what that he can Stasis a group of enemies? There's tons of hard CC in the game that is as good and doesn't make your group hate your very existence. 

[(PSN)VKPButcher]

17 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

On PS4, no one complains if there's a Limbo in their group. I play Limbo all the time and he's fine. When I drop Cataclysm, people know to switch to melee even though I never activated Stasis. It IS a good idea to let people know that Stasis is active if they're in the rift. Maybe an indicator on the upper right that would show up if you're in the rift and time is stopped.

That's the only change Limbo needs. A good qol update. There is no update to bad players like Frost spamming Snow Globe everywhere stopping everyone from shooting things or Inaros spamming his Sandstorm so no one can kill anything. Limbo's no different. He just has a higher learning curve because he requires discretion on all 4 of his powers instead of just 1 or 2.

That's just not true at all. I've seen plenty people complain about him in squad chat or outright leave squad if a Limbo is present. I've seen people straight up leave squad today when I was running a couple alerts with Limbo and not even using abilities (save his passive for sticky situations or revives). Under extreme circumstances I've most definitely complained about him myself though I do try to deal with it unless the player is actively trolling.