Updating Valkyr

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I like its design as a exalted ability, i can deal with it having high cost but that the cost beein justified by a reduction other frames do better for less energy, that it disqualifies as the panic button it is supposed to be by requiring you to specificly build for it, that is bad design.

 

i can agree with this point. maybe it is just an old mechanic that needs to be updated. once hysteria got the exalted treatment they should have pulled the invincibility from it to bring it inline with all the other exalted modes that dont offer invincibility. it would still come out ahead since it offers something those dont. passive lifesteal.

Edited April 27, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i can agree with this point. maybe it is just an old mechanic that needs to be updated. once hysteria got the exalted treatment they should have pulled the invincibility from it to bring it inline with all the other exalted modes that dont offer invincibility. it would still come out ahead since it offers something those dont. passive lifesteal.

Thing is that you wouldn't need to change that much to make it a completely different and rather perfect ability.

Unlocking the health bar and adding a treshold would work just perfect.

She could store the extra damage below the treshold similar to how QT does migrate damage onto energy. Everything over 100% health could reduce the damage.  The functionality would still justify the cost, she would gain a little controll over her mortality, she would still suffer from high cost outside of battle (cause, berserker) and adding a damage buff to the counter would fit her berserker theme too... Optionally, it could start healing over 0% stored damage (so damage and energy management would remain balanced). The healing could eather stay to be per hit or migrated to her channeling.

It doesn't need to be another generic exalted ability, what it needs to do is life up to its design if you ask me.

Edited April 27, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

14 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

just like i cant take anyone seriously who needs a crutch like invincibility to survive.

That's hilarious.  You assume something of me just because i'm against it.  That's a weak argument.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

So I guess because my first reply to this thread was unsatisfactory I guess i'll explain my position so people don't fall pray to looking more silly and making assumptions about people they don't know.

Valkyr fits her current melee theme perfectly.  Her 1 is a mobility tool and can drag enemies to her for ground finishers.  Her war cry has some soft cc potential but it boosts her melee lethality (via faster attacks) and survival via extra armor.  and this benefits allies as well.  Her paralysis ability is more soft cc and opens enemies to finishers.  And hysteria is a perfect burst ability for damage and survival.  Her passive also enables her to be punished less for being knocked around.  Which is in line with her being a melee based frame.

Basically every rework/update thread about valkyr want to change her NOT because she needs to be changed but because they WANT something to change with her.  And that's my issue.  I have no problem with people wanting more from her.  My problem is people think she deserves to be changed and should be based on their wants.

"her lifesteal in her 4 is irrelevant/redundant/doesn't make sense."  It does if it's considered a panic button.  DE's last change to shorten your time in the ability seems in line with that logic.  "it stops being useful after a few hits." and?  You don't stay in it for long periods of time.  You pop it to top yourself off/kill a deadly enemy/revive someone and then you exit it.

"other exalted weapons don't have invincibility why should she?"  Because she's got no range.  Mesa has auto aim range out to far distances.  And while she doesn't have direct invincibility she gets 90% DR and continual hard CC via jamming guns near her.  Excalibur's 4 has range as well. And auto parries shots in front of him for 80%? damage reduction.  Beyond that he also has hard CC via radial blind.  Titania.  Has range.  is harder to hit due to her size and speed.  the butterflies are cc because enemies shoot those first and the butterflies will attack enemies distracting them.  On top of that her lantern and spell bound are both hard cc.

Valkyr has no range.  She's got no hard CC.  She needs invincibility to not die.  You can absolutely give her 90% DR.  that's still not enough when you have no way to cc in a decent sized area to reduce the incoming damage.  (not to mention there are units that can rip her out of her 4 at range)

"Her armor/health are irrelevant."  Again no.  Because she doesn't sit in her 4.  Her high health and armor value is what makes it so she's not insta gibbed in higher content.  It allows her to take 2-3 shots in the open to pop hysteria.  or it at least lests her scoot into cover to pop her hysteria.

I tend to view Valkyr as a polar opposite of Mesa. as in her abilities compliment her ultimate.  Though there are 2 key differences.  Mesa is about constantly using her 4.  and since that plants her firmly in place she needs all the help she can get via cc and DR.  While with Valkyr she's more about melee in general.  and since melee is stronk as is she doesn't need to sit in her 4.  and thus doesn't need AOE hard cc.

This isn't to say i'm against Valkyr receiving tweaks.  As long as they make sense.

[GPrime96]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

So I guess because my first reply to this thread was unsatisfactory I guess i'll explain my position so people don't fall pray to looking more silly and making assumptions about people they don't know.

Valkyr fits her current melee theme perfectly.  Her 1 is a mobility tool and can drag enemies to her for ground finishers.  Her war cry has some soft cc potential but it boosts her melee lethality (via faster attacks) and survival via extra armor.  and this benefits allies as well.  Her paralysis ability is more soft cc and opens enemies to finishers.  And hysteria is a perfect burst ability for damage and survival.  Her passive also enables her to be punished less for being knocked around.  Which is in line with her being a melee based frame.

Basically every rework/update thread about valkyr want to change her NOT because she needs to be changed but because they WANT something to change with her.  And that's my issue.  I have no problem with people wanting more from her.  My problem is people think she deserves to be changed and should be based on their wants.

"her lifesteal in her 4 is irrelevant/redundant/doesn't make sense."  It does if it's considered a panic button.  DE's last change to shorten your time in the ability seems in line with that logic.  "it stops being useful after a few hits." and?  You don't stay in it for long periods of time.  You pop it to top yourself off/kill a deadly enemy/revive someone and then you exit it.

"other exalted weapons don't have invincibility why should she?"  Because she's got no range.  Mesa has auto aim range out to far distances.  And while she doesn't have direct invincibility she gets 90% DR and continual hard CC via jamming guns near her.  Excalibur's 4 has range as well. And auto parries shots in front of him for 80%? damage reduction.  Beyond that he also has hard CC via radial blind.  Titania.  Has range.  is harder to hit due to her size and speed.  the butterflies are cc because enemies shoot those first and the butterflies will attack enemies distracting them.  On top of that her lantern and spell bound are both hard cc.

Valkyr has no range.  She's got no hard CC.  She needs invincibility to not die.  You can absolutely give her 90% DR.  that's still not enough when you have no way to cc in a decent sized area to reduce the incoming damage.  (not to mention there are units that can rip her out of her 4 at range)

"Her armor/health are irrelevant."  Again no.  Because she doesn't sit in her 4.  Her high health and armor value is what makes it so she's not insta gibbed in higher content.  It allows her to take 2-3 shots in the open to pop hysteria.  or it at least lests her scoot into cover to pop her hysteria.

I tend to view Valkyr as a polar opposite of Mesa. as in her abilities compliment her ultimate.  Though there are 2 key differences.  Mesa is about constantly using her 4.  and since that plants her firmly in place she needs all the help she can get via cc and DR.  While with Valkyr she's more about melee in general.  and since melee is stronk as is she doesn't need to sit in her 4.  and thus doesn't need AOE hard cc.

This isn't to say i'm against Valkyr receiving tweaks.  As long as they make sense.

100% Agree with you.

[TotallyLagging]

Doubling her health is about the most boring way to approach her 4 and won't do much to make her anymore useful or exciting to play. 

 

Updating Hysteria's combos and the ability to mod it separately would be a good start. It sucks that I have to sacrifice my melee slot as a stat stick for the considerably less fluid Hysteria combos. 

[EinheriarJudith]

38 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

~snip~

i just simply disagree. she doesnt need invincibility to not die. even without hysteria the amount of damage she eats is more than any of the frames who dont have 90+ damage reduction.

when DE made it into an exalted mode it should have had its invincibility pulled. all the balance changes made to it was because they didnt want people staying in it due to being immune to death. they would not have had to made those changes in the first place if they removed its invulnerability. like CoolD2108 said you have to mod for it which effectively removes it as a panic skill. they can change any other aspect of her to not need invincibility but thats not what some people want to talk about. they want to keep a mechanic in a skill that doesn't belong.

reliance of invincibility to live is a problem i wholeheartedly wish DE would turn theirs eyes to and really give it thought. i made no assumption about you btw but you seem to have proven why i said it to be correct with "She needs invincibility to not die" which is incorrect. many people in the first place just use hysteria's healing mechanic and now since DE gave us the ability to res people like limbo in the rift by using our operators, "its good at reviving" is irrelevant.

Edited April 27, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[EinheriarJudith]

9 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

Doubling her health is about the most boring way to approach her 4 and won't do much to make her anymore useful or exciting to play. 

 

Updating Hysteria's combos and the ability to mod it separately would be a good start. It sucks that I have to sacrifice my melee slot as a stat stick for the considerably less fluid Hysteria combos. 

you have the ability to mod it. it uses equipped melee's mods.

[GPrime96]

5 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i just simple disagree. she doesnt need invincibility to not die. even without hysteria the amount of damage she eats is more than any of the frames who dont have 90+ damage reduction.

In the Lower Levels.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

In the Lower Levels.

incorrect. she cannot be one shot by anything really till you hit the high 100s. didnt know 100+ was low lvl

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[GPrime96]

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

incorrect. she cannot be one shot by anything really till you hit the high 100s.

High 100 (lvl 150+) is the level where she can get one shot in MOT.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, VPrime96 said:

High 100 (lvl 150+) is the level where she can get one shot in MOT.

lmao mot. sorry but few people play that node and its damage mult is x3 like nightmare. that isnt anywhere else that has endless. try again.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i just simply disagree. she doesnt need invincibility to not die. even without hysteria the amount of damage she eats is more than any of the frames who dont have 90+ damage reduction.

when DE made it into an exalted mode it should have had its invincibility pulled. all the balance changes made to it was because they didnt want people staying in it due to being immune to death. they would not have had to made those changes in the first place if they removed its invulnerability. like CoolD2108 said you have to mod for it which effectively removes it as a panic skill. they can change any other aspect of her to not need invincibility but thats not what some people want to talk about. they want to keep a mechanic in a skill that doesn't belong.

reliance of invincibility to live is a problem i wholeheartedly wish DE would turn theirs eyes to and really give it thought. i made no assumption about you btw but you seem to have proven why i said it to be correct with "She needs invincibility to not die" which is incorrect. many people in the first place just use hysteria's healing mechanic and now since DE gave us the ability to res people like limbo in the rift by using our operators, "its good at reviving" is irrelevant.

She's got no range or cc to reduce the damage coming at her.  her health+ armor alone is not enough to make her survive against high leveled enemies.  Giving her 90% DR would be helpful against those specific enemies but it wouldn't be enough because she doesn't have any other way of reducing damage.  If you look at any tank based frame they get DR and some kind of CC.  There are 3 main methods of surviving in high end.  Buckets of damage in an aoe, CC in an aoe, or unique survival abilities.  All frames have one of these things to help them manage higher content.

Valkyr has damage.  But only on a single target. (or if you must get technical a small aoe with her slide attack)  Valkyr has CC.  but it's soft cc.  and it's in a very small aoe.  and a unique survival ability.  ala invincibility.  If she is going to lose the one thing that keeps her from being paper ripped in 2 in relevant high end content she needs a massive buff elsewhere.  I.E massive AOE cc.  If you seriously believe DR alone with her current kit will help her live then i'm not sure what to tell you.  And the removal of invincibility on her kit seems born from a personal issue and not an actual design issue.  I've had this discussion before.  And while I value and respect it I don't give it grounds enough worth debating over.  at least on it's own.

You absolutely do not need to mod for it.I have 3 seperate builds.  All of which use hysteria fine.  None of which had me have to invest into hysteria.  My "for speed" build completely ignores range.  amps up the speed of my swings and gives me survival mods.  it's a warcry build.  And then I have a more team focused warcry build which considers range for my allies.  both builds use eternal war.  Last build is a build around her paralysis augment.  While you could absolutely make a hysteria build for buckets of damage it's not needed.  She does good enough damage through slide attacks/finishers and the combo multiplier.  The only point of speccing into buckets of damage for it is to front load damage at the start to nuke a high leveled boss.

You've done nothing to explain why it "doesn't belong."  She does need it with her current kit.  To deny this simply means you don't understand her kit.  In both of my eternal war builds I'm killing lots of enemies fast yes.  But Enemies respawn and I get shot in the back.  I am forced to go into her 4 to not only top up but clear the room of any major threat.  Then I can leave it.  I don't see why limbo is relevant to this discussion.  Me stating it can be used to revive someone is just to state a use it has.

You can disagree about her reliance on it.  But the fundemantles of the game prove you wrong.  She's got no other method of survival.  All other frames wether they can take a shot or not have some way of effecting the room they're in with cc or at least have the ability to kill most enemies in the room in an aoe fashion.  Valkyr being a single target frame with no range and no CC forces her to have such a strong thing of invincibility.  If you want that gone she's going to need compensation.  and DR+ life steal isn't enough.  And at that point we're talking about changing the frames very being.  To which I don't agree with and don't find needed.

[EinheriarJudith]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

~snip~

again. hysteria is an exalted mode. no other exalted mode has invincibility. wukong is another frame which people will straight up tell you his best skill is defy (invincibility).

there are things like life strike, healing return, hysteria itself has its own life steal. a person could completely forgo using hysteria with just using healing melee and warcry which they already do. she can easily survive without invincibility. and adding damage reduction on top of the amount of armor she already has would just be ridiculous especially since she can heal with hysteria or healing melee.

dont need to mod for it? last i checked hysteria's damage output is based of equipped melee's mod because you know... people complained it was weak? and it was till they exalted it.

we wont be agreeing here which is fine. invincibility is a crutch.

Edited April 27, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

again. hysteria is an exalted mode. no other exalted mode has invincibility. wukong is another frame which people will straight up tell you his best skill is defy (invincibility).

there are things like life strike, healing return, hysteria itself has its own life steal. a person could completely forgo using hysteria with just using healing melee. she can easily survive without invincibility. and adding damage reduction on top of the amount of armor she already has would just be ridiculous especially since she can heal with hysteria or healing melee.

dont need to mod for it? last i checked hysteria's damage output is based of equipped melee's mod because you know... people complained it was weak? and it was till they exalted it.

we wont be agreeing here which is fine. invincibility is a crutch.

And as I so helpfully pointed out all other frames that have an exalted mode have some kind of CC on top of DR AND range.  Which you seem to consistently ignore as if those are not factors at all in why Valkyr is at where she's at.

Life strike isn't enough on her melee when enemies start bursting for insane damage.  Apparently you don't fight against high level enemies.  My point is that you can spec for other things in her build and take a stat stick and she's fine.  Usually when someone says "mod for it" they're referring to the warframe itself.  And as i've tried to point out I don't need to add buckets of power strength to make it an effective killing tool at high levels.

I don't know how you can say it's a crutch but then turn around and say she doesn't need to crutch on it.  But i'm done arguing.  You seem to think that DR alone is enough.  despite her not having the benefits other exalted weapons have.  That's your problem.

[EinheriarJudith]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Apparently you don't fight against high level enemies. 

keep your assumptions to a minimum please.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

She's got no range or cc to reduce the damage coming at her. 

Prolonged Paralysis? Paralysis by itself? There's also her sheer armor you can build for too. Oh and Warcry slows enemys on activation.

And beein oneshot is also relative. You're dead once it deactivates no matter what if the damage exceeds a treshold. So it's not like you can not be oneshot with hysteria. That you don't die immediatly but much rather have to be revived with zero energy after a delay is closer to the truth.

Edited April 27, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[GPrime96]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Prolonged Paralysis? Paralysis by itself?

Prolonged Paralysis is her best type of CC but Paralysis by itself is more of a CC Finisher setup. When you build her for Eternal War, you would have the normal Paralysis but when you build her for Prolonged Paralysis, you can create ground finishers and attack enemies while they are floating towards you. She got CC but it's more of a Short CC instead of like Nidus Larva, Mesa's Shooting Gallery, Excalibur's Blind.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Prolonged Paralysis? Paralysis by itself? There's also her sheer armor you can build for too. Oh and Warcry slows enemys on activation.

And beein oneshot is also relative. You're dead once it deactivates no matter what if the damage exceeds a treshold. So it's not like you can not be oneshot with hysteria. That you don't die immediatly but much rather have to be revived with zero energy after a delay is closer to the truth.

Paralysis on it's own is only a cone AOE and doesn't pull people to her.  further more the stun time on it alone is not great.  Warcry does slow enemies yes.  But not a big enough AOE. and there is no way to transfer it's effect like some other abilities can with their effects.  You can't rely on the slow either if you run eternal war because melee kills keep adding to the abilities time and since you can't recast for the effect alone it's not reliable cc.

Prolonged paralysis is indeed decent cc.  But she doesn't start with it.  If her base ability behaved as such sure you'd have bested my argument.  But as I mentioned with all other exalted weapons they have cc and DR naturally along side range.  Normal paralysis is soft cc at best in a very small aoe.  and I already explained why warcry's slow isn't good cc in this very reply.

I do have a build with lots of armor for her selfish warcry build.  I still end up relying on going into hysteria to top up health wise or deal with major threats when i'm surrounded.  So I still end up crutching on the invincibility.

Far as I'm aware the only way you can get one shot with hysteria is if you deactivate the ability near the enemies that you built the threshold from.  Because i've built damage up to ohk levels and dropped my ability near enemies that didn't contribute to the damage I have and it didn't hurt me.  You can basically ignore the AOE of that anyway if you don't spec for range.  Which you rarely need to do as valkyr to begin with.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

 

Far as I'm aware the only way you can get one shot with hysteria is if you deactivate the ability near the enemies that you built the threshold from.  Because i've built damage up to ohk levels and dropped my ability near enemies that didn't contribute to the damage I have and it didn't hurt me.  You can basically ignore the AOE of that anyway if you don't spec for range.  Which you rarely need to do as valkyr to begin with.

Nope. It's quite literally any enemy nearby with LoS...nearby beein a 20m radius at max and 5m at min. Wiki:

Valkyr emits an aura with a radius of 5 meters around her while Hysteria is active, and 30% of the total damage she ignores is stored. If any enemies within this aura have line-of-sight of Valkyr when Hysteria is deactivated, Valkyr will be dealt 25% of all stored damage as Impact damage.

• The aura will continue to grow up to 20 meters and each kill reduces it by 1 meter. It cannot be reduced below 5 meters under any circumstances.

- Remember the importance of building for the panic button? This only adds to it. Chance is that by the time you're gonna have to rely on it, you're boned if you did not and that both enemy quanity and spawning will make avoiding the damage rather difficult.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Nope. It's quite literally any enemy nearby with LoS...nearby beein a 20m radius at max and 5m at min. Wiki:

Valkyr emits an aura with a radius of 5 meters around her while Hysteria is active, and 30% of the total damage she ignores is stored. If any enemies within this aura have line-of-sight of Valkyr when Hysteria is deactivated, Valkyr will be dealt 25% of all stored damage as Impact damage.

• The aura will continue to grow up to 20 meters and each kill reduces it by 1 meter. It cannot be reduced below 5 meters under any circumstances.

- Remember the importance of building for the panic button? This only adds to it. Chance is that by the time you're gonna have to rely on it, you're boned if you did not and that both enemy quanity and spawning will make avoiding the damage rather difficult.

huh..Guess i'm just remembering the situations wrong then.

[HanShotFirst]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:54 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

you misunderstood. im talking about a replacement for the invincibility. show me where i said i was having trouble. infact her exalted weapons damage is crazy. but when you call a frame a berserker damage goes up defense goes down but i guess  you didnt catch that.....

Oh. So you're not having trouble. Hysteria's exalted weapons damage is crazy. But you'd like it to be "severly boosted"?

Yeah, how could I possibly get the impression you were having difficulty killing things?

[HanShotFirst]

On 4/27/2018 at 4:54 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Hysteria

The wiki entry. Sorry btw, missed the second reduction. It is closer to 92% since:

Valkyr emits an aura with a radius of 5 meters around her while Hysteria is active, and 30% of the total damage she ignores is stored. If any enemies within this aura have line-of-sight of Valkyr when Hysteria is deactivated, Valkyr will be dealt 25% of all stored damage as Impact damage.

So much rather then beein invulnerable you're getting a damage reduction that stores 30% of the damage and then unleashes 25% on you if you are not ...essencially outside of battle when it ends. 

This ^^^^^^ stored damage is ignored by your healing. Any other frame with a 90% reduction would be able to heal it perfectly fine in higher levels, Valkyr isn't. On her low health pool, you might as well use a sentinel with medi ray. It doesn't make much of a differerence whether or not it heals you.

I like its design as a exalted ability, i can deal with it having high cost but that the cost beein justified by a reduction other frames do better for less energy, that it disqualifies as the panic button it is supposed to be by requiring you to specificly build for it, that is bad design.

 

Honestly, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill re: stored damage. It can easily be negated by simply breaking line of sight. Short of that, if your mortality is genuinely at risk on deactivation... I rather suspect you would have died even sooner without the invincibility. 

I also think it's kinda unreasonable that you'd expect better results from a re-design without having to specifically build for it. It sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb HanShotFirst:

Honestly, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill re: stored damage. It can easily be negated by simply breaking line of sight. Short of that, if your mortality is genuinely at risk on deactivation... I rather suspect you would have died even sooner without the invincibility. 

I also think it's kinda unreasonable that you'd expect better results from a re-design without having to specifically build for it. It sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too.

If it was re designed, i could tollerate building for it. But for something people consider a panic button to set a prefix that you have to build for it is pure and utter bs.

You can have playstyles dictate builds, Main abilities, kits. Literally anythings makes sense building for except for something that is supposed to be used at last resort. Except for something that is not supposed to be used. I mean really, does it make sense to you that something you are NOT supposed to use forces you to abandon a weapon AND you frames build for it? Only so you get...what exactly? A little life steal you could easily manage with a single mod? A reduction with a chance for invulnerability if, and only if you flee from battle? Like you couldn't flee from battle in the first place...

Hysteria does have quite the requirements and cost for how little it does, whether you see it as mountain or not. And even then, it is rather weak compared to a build that's focusing on her stats, Cc and melee.

Edited April 28, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Vohim]

guess i ll copy paste my hysteria suggestion from another thread:

Aura continually grows  till a max size (15-20?), however  aura now generates threat drawing enemy aggro, life steal and kills reduce  backed up damage

Hysteria drains 1% HP per second  to offset the new  aura

Hysteria attacks: give em longer range  Wider Cleaving attacks  on her base E swipes  thus have them be  slower but able to  tag at least 3 targets  while the R held key attacks are single  target high dps attack (AKA Leave as is)

Status:bump it to 15% as enemies scale  up damage starts relying on slash procs and finishers so  being able to hit about 50% status chance with a couple mods  should keep damage from falling off entirely

or scrap status and mixed damage  and give Hysteria True/Finisher  damage

 

also dont ya even think about changing the passive,  valkyr is all about momentum  the 50% knockdown recovery passive + 160% stagger recovery mod make her unstoppable

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Retepzednem