Remove conclave add open pvp already

[Nighttide77]

19 hours ago, Triplinster said:

-snip-

Wow...quite a large and organized, response.  I've seen you fight and how you go all out, so kudos to you and your style.

However, I'm basing my statements in comparison to games that have succeeded, failed, and fallen out of popularity after some success.  Lawbreakers was going to be a great game with all the fast-paced action Conclave has, but with a different flavor.  But it never kept up because the average person could not keep up (this is not to say that Lawbreakers was a bad game...in fact it is quite a delight if it fits your style).  Fortnite B.R. is the most popular game in the world right now.  Why?  I believe it is because it caters to the average person with little age boundary.  There certainly are players that have excellent aim and/or building skill, but even an average person with an RPG or other easy guns could pose a very decent threat to an expert.

Conclave has gone the way of Lawbreakers, not of the casual.  We can make it easier for players to get gear through Conclave, balance the weapons further, add a server browser, add new and more variants...but that will never garner a large crowd unless it's easy enough for the average IQ person to play.  Imagine an average shooter trying to hit another average player who resorts to just bunny hopping and bullet jump spamming.  Neither would win, they would call it cheese/broken, and if it doesn't fit their taste they would never come back.

I don't want to nitpick parts of your post or anything because in the end we may both be right or wrong and have no way to truly test our thesis' unless we developed a game or had a sociological study with funds.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Nighttide77

[Triplinster]

6 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

Conclave has gone the way of Lawbreakers, not of the casual.  We can make it easier for players to get gear through Conclave, balance the weapons further, add a server browser, add new and more variants...but that will never garner a large crowd unless it's easy enough for the average IQ person to play.  Imagine an average shooter trying to hit another average player who resorts to just bunny hopping and bullet jump spamming.  Neither would win, they would call it cheese/broken, and if it doesn't fit their taste they would never come back.

I get you now. You're talking about "skill floor" (making it easier for lesser skilled players to get in on the action and become part of the game's active playerbase).
 

6 hours ago, Nighttide77 said:

I don't want to nitpick parts of your post or anything because in the end we may both be right or wrong and have no way to truly test our thesis' unless we developed a game or had a sociological study with funds.

And yea, you're right.

But honestly, we need people to discuss about core issues. Not things like "Remove bullet jump, make it FPS, add parkour timer or increase/decrease TTK" (You didn't say it and I know you don't mean it, but others do when talking about skill floor).

Things I believe people should discuss about instead of the things I mentioned above

1. Is it worth reducing skill floor?

2. Who are the "target audience" now, who should be the target audience? what's "Ideal" "target audience" who we should focus on for PVP?

3. Should PVP be similar to PVE? (most players believe that DE has tried to make PVP familiar to PVE, hence why we cannot change it's core mechanics like parkour, parkour stamina, firerate/reload speed combat etc which come from PVE).

4. Warframe PVP is considered to be "Unique" in the PVP market. Should Warframe PVP lose it's uniqueness and change for whatever's most attractive to the widest audience?

5. Will PVE playerbase ever accept Warframe PVP truly? Should DE try to make it as acceptable as possible for as much of the PVE players as possible?

6. Is Warframe PVP even worth developing/working on for the devs? If not, at what level is it possible to be kept at (Constant development, slow development or just simple upkeep/maintenance/bugfixing or complete removal).

I believe after we discuss the answers to these questions, then we can all align by the most agreeable answer and discuss on how it's possible to push conclave in that direction. 

[Dusteon]

16 minutes ago, Triplinster said:

1. Is it worth reducing skill floor?

2. Who are the "target audience" now, who should be the target audience? what's "Ideal" "target audience" who we should focus on for PVP?

3. Should PVP be similar to PVE? (most players believe that DE has tried to make PVP familiar to PVE, hence why we cannot change it's core mechanics like parkour, parkour stamina, firerate/reload speed combat etc which come from PVE).

4. Warframe PVP is considered to be "Unique" in the PVP market. Should Warframe PVP lose it's uniqueness and change for whatever's most attractive to the widest audience?

5. Will PVE playerbase ever accept Warframe PVP truly? Should DE try to make it as acceptable as possible for as much of the PVE players as possible?

6. Is Warframe PVP even worth developing/working on for the devs? If not, at what level is it possible to be kept at (Constant development, slow development or just simple upkeep/maintenance/bugfixing or complete removal).

I believe after we discuss the answers to these questions, then we can all align by the most agreeable answer and discuss on how it's possible to push conclave in that direction. 

I know I'm not really a part of Conclave's community and more of a weird bystander who plays Conclave, but figured I'd discuss some of my thoughts on these.

1 + 2. Target audience currently is people seeking an extremely challenging, unique PvP experience. The skill ceiling is thus insanely high, and as a by product the skill floor is likewise very high. I think the 'best' target audience for Conclave growth would be people seeking a challenging, unique PvP experience but not necessarily requiring the weeks and months of grinding to even start enjoying the gamemode. To that end I think reducing the skill floor is fine to lower the barrier of entry, as long as it does not reduce the skill ceiling by too much.

3. PvP should probably remain similar to PvE, which means someone hopping into Conclave has some standard of what to expect from warframes + weapons. It helps that someone just joining can see Inaros and still know he's a tanky health only frame, or that shotguns are close range face melters, or that when Valkyr screams you don't want to be nearby. This helps lower the amount of new things a player has to learn/relearn when trying Conclave.

4. I don't know. Conclave right now is very niche, and even with changes will either remain niche or mess with what the current community wants. I'd love to play a more generalist, active version of Conclave, but if it comes at the expense of current Conclave that doesn't seem worth it.

5. Conclave is like Archwing, or that one Uranus Sealab Defense tile. It's something most players ignore and try to avoid if at all possible. I don't think there's any reasonable way to change that since it's been like that for so long and the things that make Conclave unique are also what turn most people off of it.

6. No, not really. The community for it is incredibly small, and there's basically no player gain from spending time developing it. It can stay at basic maintenance/upkeep since those don't require much effort and keep it working for that community, but it's not reasonable for them to spend the time to develop it since so few players use it.

Again, I'm just kind of a weird outsider who plays Conclave so my response is a lot less useful but I hope it helps.

[Triplinster]

17 minutes ago, Dusteon said:

I know I'm not really a part of Conclave's community and more of a weird bystander who plays Conclave, but figured I'd discuss some of my thoughts on these

There's no bubble for discussion. As long as people talk/discuss with some decent understanding/experience of the game mode It's cool (ok maybe it's a bubble compared to pure PVE only but hey it's a very big bubble anyone can freely enter, like not hard small bubble, you get what I mean).

Your response was very useful.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Triplinster

[racooperii]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎28 at 1:03 PM, (XB1)Karolus XII said:

>There's plenty of games with open PvP already

While I do think this concept applied to Warframe is stupid, I think your line of thinking is worse. It's like saying that there are plenty of sports with balls already so lets take the ball out of soccer.

That analogy makes no sense, theres Already a Ball in Soccer but there isn't open PvP in Warframe. Rethink it and try again.

[Gnohme]

The small maps have led to more restrictive gameplay imo, I'm not too fond of the movement speeds present in the current version of conclave.

[Drejzer]

Conclave is somewhat fun as long as some "God" doesn't join the "mortals" to wipe the floor, walls, and ceilings with them.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Drejzer

[nerfinator6]

On 2018-04-24 at 7:15 AM, Zhoyzu said:

PVP never belonged in WF and it still doesnt. be glad with what you have

I'm not glad. It sucks.

You have the people who play conclave for hours on end who don't want anything changed because they're too busy with their superiority complex.

Then you have everyone else.

[Tachmag]

5 hours ago, nerfinator6 said:

I'm not glad. It sucks.

You have the people who play conclave for hours on end who don't want anything changed because they're too busy with their superiority complex.

Then you have everyone else.

Everyone else expects a watered down PvP experience that allows everyone to succeed without investing a single second in PvP.

Here's the thing: the main draw of Warframe is its whole power theme. You play as a roid soldier who just kills an entire room in mere seconds without much input from the player. 

On the other hand, you have Conclave. A place where if you have to earn every single kill you desire to achieve and requires constant effort from the player in order to succeed. 

The two gamemodes are separate. And you cannot make them ever converge because the average PvE player is far below the average PvP player in terms of skill and PvP tactics without changing PvP completely. While doing the previously mentioned might seem like a good idea, you need to understand that DE does not catter PvP to PvE players. They catter PvP to PvP players. And it should be like that.

 

[(XBOX)SN41L3Y]

... Just no. Warframe's PVE is so great because of the way it works, with insane mobility and S#&$ but that also breaks it for pvp. I dont know how you've managed to enjoy conclave enough that you want it brought into the majority of the game, but i assure you very few people would enjoy this change