Losing Hope - Feedback

[Eivy]

First off I love Warframe, I have for years, but here I am about to take another long break because of these frustrations.

Formas:
 Please fix the forma process, maybe stop making us re-level the item after every forma. An initial re-level to be able to forma could be fine, but past that is a waste of time. I feel this way especially because you guys nerf bat or change item after item frame after frame, making my hours of work worthless. This is the KEY thing that makes me leave. I keep feeling like Im wasting my time and getting nowhere for it. Also you guys need to address insane builds from the time you find it if you're going to nerf it or not. Stop waiting until everyone builds it to nerf it. The longer you let these things sit, the more people think you aren't going to care.
  If you cant do that, make formas more easily available. Make more alerts with them, make them easier to get in sorties than me getting those stupid endo sculptures over and over. I dont think Ive ever gotten the forma in sorties. 
  If you cant do that make the crafting time less, its insanity to have to wait so long just to be able to polarize, and then want to bang my head on the wall leveling it over and over again.
  This process was fine when there was a lot less content. Now there are more than enough guns, frames, content, that this doesnt need to be a thing anymore. Sorties, Focus, Relics, Syndicates, POE (soon venus), Onslaught, Alerts, Invasions, Fashion frame >.> 

Keeping this process alive, is in part why people keep making optimal clearing builds, we do this because we dont want to take hours re-leveling things. I want to be able to experience Warframe. I want to be able to have fun. This isn't fun. 

Pets:
 Less of an issue, but I think all pets should have some kind of command process. Obviously not exact to Khora, but I do feel I should be able to tell my pet where to attack, or where to stay, defensive, offensive, passive.
I also feel it should be safe to have a Sentinel and Pet at the same time. If you have to nerf setinel damage and their weapon damage I doubt people will care too much as it usually barely makes a difference, and let them be a choice of buff. Carrier - Ammo, Helios - Scans, Status Removal, maybe have some that increase armor, energy, health, weapon damage, etc.. Then the kavat/kubrow = damage, thus they wouldnt care on Sentinel damage loss, and everyone could have a vacuum instead of choosing between running around the map looking at the floor for loot all the time, or using a sentinel.

Pet skills should be passive on them not mods, or there needs to be a Kavat prime Collar like the Kavasa asap.

Archwing:
It needs love. I had hope for plains, but all it ended up good for is quickly getting across the map, so that was disappointing. You guys have a HUGE opportunity to make archwing cool, but for whatever reason, you dont. Maybe a map in the future where youd use it in air to get to certain ships, could hop off it, then the ship is a tileset, at the end you can use a launcher to head back out, or back to the ship. Also it is way too slow in water. More tilesets would be amazing too.

PoE:
Explain to me again why the water has to be so friggin annoying on plains but no where else? And also why cant my archwing deal with the water there? Even if you make an item we can farm for that makes us immune to the water issue, that would be great. Past that I generally love plains, I think its a step in the right direction.

Im just frustrated yet again because I think of my time in warframe and so much of it was re-leveling. Thats such a waste considering the content out, and I also feel its less noob friendly. I couldnt imagine starting fresh, I get burnt out as it is.

Thank you for your time.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Eivy

[DarthBane1]

[peterc3]

13 minutes ago, Eivy said:

If you cant do that, make formas more easily available.

They are trivial to find, as it is. There are known places with a 100% drop rate for built ones and BPs are very common off Relics. 

14 minutes ago, Eivy said:

I also feel it should be safe to have a Sentinel and Pet at the same time.

Feelings are entirely irrelevant when it comes to game design and balance.

16 minutes ago, Eivy said:

Pet skills should be passive on them not mods

This would then need some system to set priorities. Something that is already covered by the mods staying mods.

17 minutes ago, Eivy said:

waiting until everyone builds it to nerf it

This is my biggest issue here. They don't trap people. They fix their game. If they had perfect foresight and the ability to make perfect code, then sure, you'd have a point. They don't and they have to wait to see how something works before being able to see if it fits with how they want their game to flow.

[Eivy]

11 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

They are trivial to find, as it is. There are known places with a 100% drop rate for built ones and BPs are very common off Relics. 

Feelings are entirely irrelevant when it comes to game design and balance.

This would then need some system to set priorities. Something that is already covered by the mods staying mods.

This is my biggest issue here. They don't trap people. They fix their game. If they had perfect foresight and the ability to make perfect code, then sure, you'd have a point. They don't and they have to wait to see how something works before being able to see if it fits with how they want their game to flow.

Ok I honestly dont know where has 100% rate, I will look into that. BPs arent that common for me, seriously. When they do pop up, it usually happens when there is something else I need. RNG for a necessary item like this is dumb, plus the crafting time.

Feelings arent irrelevant when I put money in this game and have supported it for 5 years. The balance honestly wouldnt be that bad anyways, minor buffs and a vacuum hurts nothing. It allows people to enjoy pets and not have to stare at the darn floor. 

I dont care that much about the skill mods but considering how much capacity some of the pet mods take, and the mod space given.. Even when I have my pet formad 5 or 6 times, there are still mods I cant have maxed or Im out of capacity. So maybe that would be another option, maybe they can lower the capacity of some of these mods. [edit] also the more I forma, the more limited my choices in mods is, especially since between all configs it keeps the same polarities.

They do trap people with this. They take way too long to address issues, look how long it took them about the melee in the wall. It isnt hard for them to state they are aware of a certain build, and a nerf may be coming, that way people know better than to build for that. They know they have balance issues.. and then they made rivens. So I have no sympathies for them there.
 The Castanas thing for example has been out for a while, and had forum posts with barely any response about it. So people will probably keep building it, until they decide to nerf it in a month or two. This has been a process for YEARS. It gets frustrating as hell. Again, I would care less about this if I didnt have to repolarize and relevel things each time they do this.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Eivy

[Augnier_Calyenin]

True, forma takes way too long and always having to re-level a weapon over and over to forma it is extremely annoying. Least they can do is let forma take 12 hours to make. But they don't care at all. They make the game how they want it to be and couldn't care less about what users want. If we get what we want they won't be able to make money. Want a lot of forma very quickly? Too bad, buy it with plat in the market. Want forma to build faster? Use plat to rush it. That's what they want.

[seprent]

3 minutes ago, Eivy said:

Ok I honestly dont know where has 100% rate, I will look into that. BPs arent that common for me, seriously. When they do pop up, it usually happens when there is something else I need. RNG for a necessary item like this is dumb, plus the crafting time.

i make it a rule of thumb to keep around 60+ forma Bps and as for how i get them Lith relics i cant remember which one but one of them has like 2 on the drop table keep on building at almost all times you wont notice the slight dip into resources but you always have at-least 1 on hand 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

There are known places with a 100% drop rate for built ones

Really? The rare container in Octavia's puzzle room doesn't drop forma every time. Unless there's some other place...

[peterc3]

7 minutes ago, Eivy said:

It isnt hard for them to state they are aware of a certain build, and a nerf may be coming

Let me step in and say something, here. They are aware of everything people do in this game. A nerf could come to literally everything and anything you use now or will use in the future. This is why the game is called a beta. Everything is subject to change and you play this game with the explicit acknowledgement that this is the case.

They do not have infinite people with infinite time and resources to fix every problem at once. They prioritize. Does it break the game completely? High priority. Is there a damage formula that's off but isn't really hurting anything? Low priority. Does said damage formula being off trivialize a new piece of content? Low priority bug becomes high priority.

Edited May 18, 2018 by peterc3

[Eivy]

Just now, peterc3 said:

Let me step in and say something, here. They are aware of everything people do in this game. A nerf could come to literally everything and anything you use now or will use in the future. This is why the game is called a beta. Everything is subject to change and you play this game with the explicit acknowledgement that this is the case.

They do not have infinite people with infinite time and resources to fix every problem at once. They prioritize. Does it break the game completely? High priority. Is there a damage formula that's off but ins't really hurting anything? Low priority. Does said damage formula being off trivialize a new piece of content? Low priority bug becomes high priority.

Yes and trust me I get that, I understand priorities.. but it ends up making people leave. Its wasted efforts over and over. As for it being called "beta" Its been in "beta" for years and years. Them calling it "beta" is just to save their own butts. 

[LSG501]

14 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This is my biggest issue here. They don't trap people. They fix their game. If they had perfect foresight and the ability to make perfect code, then sure, you'd have a point. They don't and they have to wait to see how something works before being able to see if it fits with how they want their game to flow. 

The problem isn't so much DE 'fixing' frames, it's the time it takes them to do it, sometimes it's so long after release that many people have come to like a particular playstyle with said frames.  Then we get situations like gara where they took away the main selling point of gara's fourth ability because they decided it was overpowered after it was released (and purchased by many for plat) instead of realising it could be used like we used it in internal testing... seriously we can't play the game 'that' much differently to the internal testers...

 

Mind you I often feel, more so of late, that DE's 'vision' for the game isn't the same as how the game actually ends up being played by the players...hence why there is often such a disconnect between what we want to see fixed and what we actually get from DE

 

[(PSN)gta4biosmka]

Why can't we use Argon crystal to rush the crafting time ?

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Eivy said:

Yes and trust me I get that, I understand priorities.. but it ends up making people leave. Its wasted efforts over and over. As for it being called "beta" Its been in "beta" for years and years. Them calling it "beta" is just to save their own butts. 

well then what would they call it then? and personally like i watch the prime time and dev streams i cant remember the last time i heard any of them say beta they just call it warframe

[seprent]

Just now, (PS4)gta4biosmka said:

Why can't we use Argon crystal to rush the crafting time ?

how does solidified void radiation help speed up the build time of a shotgun?

[peterc3]

1 minute ago, Eivy said:

Yes and trust me I get that, I understand priorities.. but it ends up making people leave. Its wasted efforts over and over. As for it being called "beta" Its been in "beta" for years and years. Them calling it "beta" is just to save their own butts. 

No, no you don't get it. If you got it, you wouldn't have made this thread. If people are leaving because their fave is changed, then good riddance. 

Betas do not have a time limit. Shockingly, game development takes a long time. Save themselves from what? Developers put the beta label on their own software. There is not Grand Beta Tribunal that puts the mark on those pieces of software they deem legit. There are no laws against betas running too long.

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

The problem isn't so much DE 'fixing' frames, it's the time it takes them to do it, sometimes it's so long after release that many people have come to like a particular playstyle with said frames. 

So if something accidentally gets into the main build that is pushed, they can never change it if the problem remains too long?

[Eivy]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

The problem isn't so much DE 'fixing' frames, it's the time it takes them to do it, sometimes it's so long after release that many people have come to like a particular playstyle with said frames.  Then we get situations like gara where they took away the main selling point of gara's fourth ability because they decided it was overpowered after it was released (and purchased by many for plat) instead of realising it could be used like we used it in internal testing... seriously we can't play the game 'that' much differently to the internal testers...

 

Mind you I often feel, more so of late, that DE's 'vision' for the game isn't the same as how the game actually ends up being played by the players...hence why there is often such a disconnect between what we want to see fixed and what we actually get from DE

 

Yes! Exactly. It eventually makes me feel disheartened, and yes again, when people are paying RL cash for some of these frames and then they get changed its also very annoying. 

I only even post this because I do love this game so much, but after a while it feels like a chore with no pay off. I have started to wait to see what they are going to change next, instead of excited for new content. 

[Eivy]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

No, no you don't get it. If you got it, you wouldn't have made this thread. If people are leaving because their fave is changed, then good riddance. 

So if something accidentally gets into the main build that is pushed, they can never change it if the problem remains too long?

-Yes, yes I do get it. And its not all about the fave changed... 

-No one is saying that, its just the fact it happens over and over, that those of us who have played a long time get fed up with it eventually. If they are having issues balancing so much, stop adding new frames, weapons, and rivens/mods until the initial problem is solved. Instead they rush out content, people spend RL cash on some of it, even HUNDREDS on prime releases, to eventually lose what they liked about the item initially. Its annoying and it happens way too much. 

[(PSN)Raygun_X_]

41 minutes ago, Eivy said:

First off I love Warframe, I have for years, but here I am about to take another long break because of these frustrations.

Formas:
 Please fix the forma process, maybe stop making us re-level the item after every forma. An initial re-level to be able to forma could be fine, but past that is a waste of time. I feel this way especially because you guys nerf bat or change item after item frame after frame, making my hours of work worthless. This is the KEY thing that makes me leave. I keep feeling like Im wasting my time and getting nowhere for it. Also you guys need to address insane builds from the time you find it if you're going to nerf it or not. Stop waiting until everyone builds it to nerf it. The longer you let these things sit, the more people think you aren't going to care.
  If you cant do that, make formas more easily available. Make more alerts with them, make them easier to get in sorties than me getting those stupid endo sculptures over and over. I dont think Ive ever gotten the forma in sorties. 
  If you cant do that make the crafting time less, its insanity to have to wait so long just to be able to polarize, and then want to bang my head on the wall leveling it over and over again.
  This process was fine when there was a lot less content. Now there are more than enough guns, frames, content, that this doesnt need to be a thing anymore. Sorties, Focus, Relics, Syndicates, POE (soon venus), Onslaught, Alerts, Invasions, Fashion frame >.> 

Keeping this process alive, is in part why people keep making optimal clearing builds, we do this because we dont want to take hours re-leveling things. I want to be able to experience Warframe. I want to be able to have fun. This isn't fun. 

Pets:
 Less of an issue, but I think all pets should have some kind of command process. Obviously not exact to Khora, but I do feel I should be able to tell my pet where to attack, or where to stay, defensive, offensive, passive.
I also feel it should be safe to have a Sentinel and Pet at the same time. If you have to nerf setinel damage and their weapon damage I doubt people will care too much as it usually barely makes a difference, and let them be a choice of buff. Carrier - Ammo, Helios - Scans, Status Removal, maybe have some that increase armor, energy, health, weapon damage, etc.. Then the kavat/kubrow = damage, thus they wouldnt care on Sentinel damage loss, and everyone could have a vacuum instead of choosing between running around the map looking at the floor for loot all the time, or using a sentinel.

Pet skills should be passive on them not mods, or there needs to be a Kavat prime Collar like the Kavasa asap.

Archwing:
It needs love. I had hope for plains, but all it ended up good for is quickly getting across the map, so that was disappointing. You guys have a HUGE opportunity to make archwing cool, but for whatever reason, you dont. Maybe a map in the future where youd use it in air to get to certain ships, could hop off it, then the ship is a tileset, at the end you can use a launcher to head back out, or back to the ship. Also it is way too slow in water. More tilesets would be amazing too.

PoE:
Explain to me again why the water has to be so friggin annoying on plains but no where else? And also why cant my archwing deal with the water there? Even if you make an item we can farm for that makes us immune to the water issue, that would be great. Past that I generally love plains, I think its a step in the right direction.

Im just frustrated yet again because I think of my time in warframe and so much of it was re-leveling. Thats such a waste considering the content out, and I also feel its less noob friendly. I couldnt imagine starting fresh, I get burnt out as it is.

Thank you for your time.

I've been playing forever and I made a rule a long time ago... Every time I log in I must claim and build a forma.

If you want you can get them pre-built in a bundle of 3 for 35plat in the market... People are always looking for syndacate mods you can sell for 10p each. So on 20 min tops you can get 30p to buy them.

As for releveling... I'm sure you agree there should be a cost to making something more powerful right?

Maybe they can make a kind of forma item that you must level up in a certain way like a task... and use that on a item that doesn't reset it's level. So the cost would be what ever task they give you to level the special forma up.

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

So if something accidentally gets into the main build that is pushed, they can never change it if the problem remains too long? 

If something gets put in accidentally then it should get fixed/removed within days/weeks not months or even years down the line....it's not like it takes players a long time to find these 'problems' that DE's own internal testing constantly seems to miss....  They could also communicate with players as soon as it's been determined by them that changes are needed to fix said problems to help prevent wasted forma and time levelling etc

[peterc3]

Just now, LSG501 said:

If something gets put in accidentally then it should get fixed/removed within days/weeks not months or even years down the line....it's not like it takes players a long time to find these 'problems' that DE's own internal testing constantly seems to miss....  They could also communicate with players as soon as it's been determined by them that changes are needed to fix said problems to help prevent wasted forma and time levelling etc

They can/will change everything that is currently in the game or going to be in the game. That is absolute. That is what people agree to when they make a Warframe account. People buy things in this game with that explicit understanding.

People shouldn't play games that are under active development if they don't want to deal with changes, perhaps even severe changes.

[Eivy]

Just now, (PS4)Raygun_X_ said:

Maybe they can make a kind of forma item that you must level up in a certain way like a task... and use that on a item that doesn't reset it's level. So the cost would be what ever task they give you to level the special forma up.

I already kind of agreed with this if you read it again. I dont mind an initial relevel. Or even if they made each forma level it a bit faster, or have us use something else as well is fine. But having to relevel each weapon and frame 2-5 times to make it viable is a drag and waste. This is especially annoying with Aura polarities, more often than not I have to relevel it for the correct aura ever time. Anything but how the current system is lol

I know you can buy formas, which I have, honestly thats usually what i end up selling prime parts to get. The forma is less of an issue for me, but I can see it being a huge issue for fresh starters. My main issue is the re-leveling... then things getting changed around. 

[LSG501]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

They can/will change everything that is currently in the game or going to be in the game. That is absolute. That is what people agree to when they make a Warframe account. People buy things in this game with that explicit understanding. 

People shouldn't play games that are under active development if they don't want to deal with changes, perhaps even severe changes.

As soon as you start taking money for something, not to mention being active for over 5 years, you can't really use beta as an excuse for constantly needing to 'fix' things because your own internal testing didn't pick up on 'problems'.  The odd thing here and there is understandable but if you need to keep changing stuff all the time then there is an issue with the way you are internally testing the game. 

Also like I said, changes are fine (not that I agree with them all), it's the amount of time taken to implement said changes which is the issue.

[peterc3]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

As soon as you start taking money for something, not to mention being active for over 5 years, you can't really use beta as an excuse for constantly needing to 'fix' things because your own internal testing didn't pick up on 'problems'.  The odd thing here and there is understandable but if you need to keep changing stuff all the time then there is an issue with the way you are internally testing the game. 

Also like I said, changes are fine (not that I agree with them all), it's the amount of time taken to implement said changes which is the issue.

Stop that. Beta is a label for developers to put on their code that means that it is not done. That's it. There are no Beta Laws that preclude charging money. If you buy something in a piece of beta software you are doing so knowing that it is for software/a game that could change at any point.

They keep changing things because we, the players of the game, are exceedingly good at breaking things. They cannot even dream of being able to field a testing group that matches the PC players.

Do you think designing and programming a game is easy? No? Then why do you seem to think these arbitrary time limits are applicable? What is a good amount of time to be able to identify, locate and fix a bug? Should all production stop if a bug is found? Does a weapon clipping badly into another asset mean a new weapon shouldn't come out until it is fixed?

[seprent]

Every thing in this game is subject to change whether we like it or not De vision of the game changes over time 

object permanence does not apply to warframe While a rock will pretty much for ever stay a rock warframe will change over time some good some bad some people wont like it some people will in the end dont get too torn up about if your favorite thing gets changed it was bound to happen

like i love ash, ash gets change, people say ash is going to be trash because cant kill a whole room in a horde shooter he is dead rip ash only mr fodder now i wasted money on this blah blah blah, and i still use ash heavily and clear a whole room one half being stabbed by clones the other half be killing them my self methods change end result stays the same

if you put money in hey your supporting warframe and the devs their only human just because they make a game doesn't make them any different from you or me sitting here talking on the forums im sure all of us slacked on doing something important in school in favor of something else everyone priorities are different from person to person yeah we can do stuff about it but it will probably circle back in a new form that could be better or worse depending on a persons perspective on the matter 

in the end there will be always something for somebody somewhere to complain about 

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

I agree that pets and archwing need work. 

Disagree about formas. Yes it's a mission maxing out a weapon or frame but when it's done I appreciate the effort I put in and the end result. Formas themselves are easy to get hold of. High MR makes formaing things much less painful so there's that added incentive. 

[LSG501]

4 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Stop that. Beta is a label for developers to put on their code that means that it is not done. That's it. There are no Beta Laws that preclude charging money. If you buy something in a piece of beta software you are doing so knowing that it is for software/a game that could change at any point.

They keep changing things because we, the players of the game, are exceedingly good at breaking things. They cannot even dream of being able to field a testing group that matches the PC players.

Do you think designing and programming a game is easy? No? Then why do you seem to think these arbitrary time limits are applicable? What is a good amount of time to be able to identify, locate and fix a bug? Should all production stop if a bug is found? Does a weapon clipping badly into another asset mean a new weapon shouldn't come out until it is fixed?

Actually I don't agree with your view on this game being a beta, this game is no more a beta than world of warcraft and other similar games which also has regular updates.

If the players are so 'good at breaking things' as you say then DE need to change their testing methodology to take this into consideration.... they have a test server so select some of the design council or partners to be beta testers and see how they 'break' a frame before releasing it.

Also you can't go comparing a bug in the code or the clipping on a warframe to the abilities which are given to warframe and how they're balanced, that's just being ridiculous and you know it.