[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[MasaJin]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

I respectfully disagree, and have stated my suggested changes that accomplish the same goals that DE wants to move toward

Yeah seems we are

The people who love dps/dont care vs those who want better functionality and synergy 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

To reiterate, these are my suggested changes and why.

I've built 3 different saryns and tested 15 builds in 2 hour survivals, ESO, and a few other mission types including sorties using her as a caster, as a debuffer, and as a supported dps using spectres. The times I've went into pugs I was either top damage and kills or choked out by teammates. I did ask, and the times I was top damage my teammates just let me do what I wanted.

   ●Spores

Make spore spread regardless of circumstance. (Probably keep death by spore at 1/2 to 1/4 range). It just didn't feel right when spores kill an enemy you just can't get to in time and you don't have the energy to cast miasma to spread them, but there's literally an enemy touching his elbow that doesn't get infected. This along with another change later helps saryn be more fun, consistent, and follows the theme of plague-spreader as well as fixing the damage drop mechanic to be more bearable(because you truly messed up if you can't get this going).

Change the damage mechanic to only apply built up damage in full to spores spread by saryn herself(guns, melees, and abilities of the original caster), and only half the damage built up to spores spread by allies in any way except spores

Spores that spread by themselves deal base damage, but still build up damage stacks. This is to compensate the levels of damage that saryn shoves down enemies throats. 

Make spores have an allotment of "slots" on an enemy based on how many saryn's there are in a squad. There's around 10 slots per enemy atm, but only one saryn's spores can be on them at any point in time, and currently(to my knowledge) only 3 of that saryn's spores can be on that enemy. Fixes saryns choking each other out. 

When multiple spores from multiple saryn's spread by spore death, all instances of that spore deal base damage. 

Don't remove spores from enemies when saryn dies, just reset the damage. It feels better if they still keep the spores.

No other changes from current spores mechanics. Not even the drain. 

   ●Molt.

Combine the augment with it and make her heal base. Make the augment strip status changes from saryn. Frees up a generally put "required" mod. Makes it an optional one. Call it revolting molt or something. 

It does feel a bit odd to be attacked when using this though. Maybe make saryn invincible for a second(nothing modifies this) when casting to move out of the way? It's a thought.

No other changes

   ●Toxic lash. 

Give some kind of energy refund because saryn is energy hungry on all but like 4~5 build variations and it would alleviate that to an astonishing degree even if it was just one energy. It would reward actually using toxic lash. Reason being as many times it was said in this very thread, "just use her miasma to spread spores and kill enemies" isn't fun. It's not diversified gameplay.

Ignis wouldn't feel like it's the best option for spores when you have little energy on most builds

No other changes

   ●Miasma. (They reduced the cost of it because she WAS ACTUALLY having energy issues and made this the Avenue by which people spread spores)

To keep people from spamming it constantly, make it have 10 base damage, but double its damage every second it's active after cast initial cast and reset if it's recast.

10 damage at start, then 20, then 40 etc.

Make base duration 8 seconds.

Changes can be made later if it's too powerful, or too weak. I personally like feeling powerful but having that "you have to wait" caveat to the ability. 

No other changes

 

 

These suggested changes are from my experience and have drawn conclusions from that. I've tested quite a bit and found I don't like her current mechanics. I think the stated mechanics would suit her better.

If you agree feel free to upvote, like, whatever so DE sees this. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname
Clarifications

[MasaJin]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

To reiterate, these are my suggested changes and why.

I've built 3 different saryns and tested 15 builds in 2 hour survivals, ESO, and a few other mission types including sorties using her as a caster, as a debuffer, and as a supported dps using spectres. The times I've went into pugs I was either top damage and kills or choked out by teammates. I did ask, and the times I was top damage my teammates just let me do what I wanted.

   ●Spores

Make spore spread regardless of circumstance. Probably keep death by spore at 1/2 to 1/4 range. It just didn't feel right when spores kill an enemy you just can't get to in time and you don't have the energy to cast miasma to spread them, but there's literally an enemy touching his elbow that doesn't get infected. This along with another change later helps saryn be more fun, consistent, and follows the theme of plague-spreader as well as fixing the damage drop mechanic to be more bearable(because you truly messed up if you can't get this going).

Change the damage mechanic to only apply built up damage in full to spores spread by saryn herself(guns, melees, and abilities of the original caster), and only half the damage built up to spores spread by allies in any way except spores

Spores that spread by themselves deal base damage, but still build up damage stacks. This is to compensate the levels of damage that saryn shoves down enemies throats. 

Make spores have an allotment of "slots" on an enemy based on how many saryn's there are in a squad. There's around 10 slots per enemy atm, but only one saryn's spores can be on them at any point in time, and currently(to my knowledge) only 3 of that saryn's spores can be on that enemy. Fixes saryns choking each other out. 

When multiple spores from multiple saryn's spread by spore death, all instances of that spore deal base damage. 

Don't remove spores from enemies when saryn dies, just reset the damage. It feels better if they still keep the spores.

No other changes from current spores mechanics. Not even the drain. 

   ●Molt.

Combine the augment with it and make her heal base. Make the augment strip status changes from saryn. Frees up a generally put "required" mod. Makes it an optional one. Call it revolting molt or something. 

It does feel a bit odd to be attacked when using this though. Maybe make saryn invincible for a second(nothing modifies this) when casting to move out of the way? It's a thought.

No other changes

   ●Toxic lash. 

Give some kind of energy refund because saryn is energy hungry on all but like 4~5 build variations and it would alleviate that to an astonishing degree even if it was just one energy. It would reward actually using toxic lash. Reason being as many times it was said in this very thread, "just use her miasma to spread spores and kill enemies" isn't fun. It's not diversified gameplay.

Ignis wouldn't feel like it's the best option for spores when you have little energy on most builds

No other changes

   ●Miasma. (They reduced the cost of it because she WAS ACTUALLY having energy issues and made this the Avenue by which people spread spores)

To keep people from spamming it constantly, make it have 10 base damage, but double its damage every second it's active after cast initial cast and reset if it's recast.

10 damage at start, then 20, then 40 etc.

Make base duration 8 seconds.

Changes can be made later if it's too powerful, or too weak. I personally like feeling powerful but having that "you have to wait" caveat to the ability. 

No other changes

 

 

These suggested changes are from my experience and have drawn conclusions from that. I've tested quite a bit and found I don't like her current mechanics. I think the stated mechanics would suit her better.

If you agree feel free to upvote, like, whatever so DE sees this. 

I do like those changes but i also like the taking of status effects from molt it has saved my life a good bit of times 

How about the augment be more aggro drag or some of it lingers on saryn for extra armor but the duration and/or health gets decreased

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

42 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

I do like those changes but i also like the taking of status effects from molt it has saved my life a good bit of times 

How about the augment be more aggro drag or some of it lingers on saryn for extra armor but the duration and/or health gets decreased

Fair points, however in almost all but 3 builds of saryn I had the augment and those 3 did not work out so well, whereas I didn't get status procs on me nearly as often as when I needed health. 

That's just my experience though. If they change it the way I have in that text, nothing really changes for you except having one second of invincibility(non-modifiable for balance) to get out the line of fire in the first scenario. 

The second where they combine the health regen and status removal plus give the augment an altogether different effect I have no idea on. Not because it's a bad idea, but it's hard to quantify with how saryn works currently and with my suggested changes. 

Again, it's not a bad suggestion, I just can't picture it currently

[DjKaplis]

Although your suggested changes are interesting some of them seem quite complex from coding perspective (like the many spore spreading and damage application conditions) and could make her perform worse (which was one of problems 2.0 that Pablo pointed out that her spore spreading mechanics were lowering game performance). And they aren't needed. (Tho before this rework I also said that the rework wasn't needed but still am happy with the results 😄 )

And 1/2 or 1/4 spore range - no. After adjusting to her new spores I'd rather stick to current system.

 

I have also tested her in starchart, kuva floods, PoE, sorties, ESO and few hour solo and team survivals and I disagree with you that she doesn't feel interactive or fun, on the contrary, all her abilities work great and in synergy now, all have their specciffic purposes and situations to be used in and she feels great to play.

Edited June 13, 2018 by DjKaplis

[(PSN)Radehx]

14 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Saryn is perfect now. 

This. You simply have to adapt your play style a bit and don't be an idiot by trying to spam all her abilities at once against enemies that don't require that much damage. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

This. You simply have to adapt your play style a bit and don't be an idiot by trying to spam all her abilities at once against enemies that don't require that much damage. 

We told you about that insulting thing. You negate your argument when you do that

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Just now, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

We told you about that insulting thing. You negate your argument when you do that

Seriously though... Two types of people play saryn.

People who play saryn well and change their playstyle as needed.

Idiots who just spam the same thing over and over.... Usually also being carried through a mission. 

[DjKaplis]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Seriously though... Two types of people play saryn.

People who play saryn well and change their playstyle as needed.

Idiots who just spam the same thing over and over.... Usually also being carried through a mission. 

Agree.

Yea, and that hasn't actually changed. There were such clueless people during her 2.0 version too. I remember quite many times seeing Saryn 2.0 just casting Molt and then continuously casting spores on it over and over again till their Molt had probably like 30 spores on it before spreading those (which, explaining for other clueless people reading this, of course didn't work as enemies can always have only 3 spores on them).

Either learn or consider playing another warframe. ("this is just your opinion" - there are many people who probably understand Saryn even better than I do saying the same thing that I am - she was and is even more amazing now)

Edited June 13, 2018 by DjKaplis

[(PSN)Radehx]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

We told you about that insulting thing. You negate your argument when you do that

Pointing out that not adapting isn't clever isn't being rude, it's being factual. This goes for pretty much everything in life if you are unwilling to adapt. Clearly there are a whole bunch of people who have no problem whatsoever adapting to the changes and in fact like them. 

It's simple, Saryn works perfectly fine at all levels as long as you adapt. Don't like the playstyle? Move on...because your criticism isn't objective given the frame works perfectly at all levels. If you don't like the taste of Coke, don't drink Coke...it doesn't make Coke a bad drink.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

21 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Agree.

Yea, and that hasn't actually changed. There were such clueless people during her 2.0 version too. I remember quite many times seeing Saryn 2.0 just casting Molt and then continuously casting spores on it over and over again till their Molt had probably like 30 spores on it before spreading those (which, explaining for other clueless people reading this, of course didn't work as enemies can always have only 3 spores on them).

Either learn or consider playing another warframe. ("this is just your opinion" - there are many people who probably understand Saryn even better than I do saying the same thing that I am - she was and is even more amazing now)

I agree, she is so very good now.. And i love what they did with toxic lash..

So fun just tryin different weapon combinations.

[DjKaplis]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I agree, she is so very good now.. And i love what they did with toxic lash..

So fun just tryin different weapon combinations.

Yea, that for sure was one of best changes for her, she now makes every weapon better with that ability.

(and some people on this feedback thread were saying that toxic lash isn't worth using.. 😄 )

[(PSN)Radehx]

7 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Yea, that for sure was one of best changes for her, she now makes every weapon better with that ability.

(and some people on this feedback thread were saying that toxic lash isn't worth using.. 😄 )

You can get reliable slash, toxin AND viral procs with her...all going around armor. Even if you ignore her other abilities, that's so effective. A viral Zarr with Hunter Munitions for examples is totally nuts. 

Or you can use a weapon you consider "fun, but not that effective" and with Toxic Lash, it's suddenly a "good" weapon. Just opens up so many more weapon combos. Jat Kittag is a great example. Fun weapon, but impact damage isn't all that great. Add Toxic Lash and it's suddenly a lot better without you having to really change your build. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[DjKaplis]

Toxic lash even works on Redeemer now 😄 At her 2.0 for some reason it didn't work even though Redeemer is a melee weapon.

[(PSN)Radehx]

14 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

Toxic lash even works on Redeemer now 😄 At her 2.0 for some reason it didn't work even though Redeemer is a melee weapon.

Works with Glaive Prime explosions too which is godly. It's my current go-to melee weapon rigged for viral/radiation/slash because the easiest combo makes the Glaive circle you 3 times at decent damage...giving you 360 damage without a whip (great for spreading spores!)...and the explosion damage is nuts. You can push this even further with Saryn given corrosive procs. Hell, top it off with a Zakti and that Glaive hits like a truck.

I get slash/toxin/viral/rad procs with Saryn...in a single frame, without even using spores or the Zakti 😄

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Seriously though... Two types of people play saryn.

People who play saryn well and change their playstyle as needed.

Idiots who just spam the same thing over and over.... Usually also being carried through a mission. 

And the third who insults people.

I can't understand you if all you're going to do is insult people. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

2 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Although your suggested changes are interesting some of them seem quite complex from coding perspective (like the many spore spreading and damage application conditions) and could make her perform worse (which was one of problems 2.0 that Pablo pointed out that her spore spreading mechanics were lowering game performance). And they aren't needed. (Tho before this rework I also said that the rework wasn't needed but still am happy with the results 😄 )

And 1/2 or 1/4 spore range - no. After adjusting to her new spores I'd rather stick to current system.

 

I have also tested her in starchart, kuva floods, PoE, sorties, ESO and few hour solo and team survivals and I disagree with you that she doesn't feel interactive or fun, on the contrary, all her abilities work great and in synergy now, all have their specciffic purposes and situations to be used in and she feels great to play.

The range part I wasn't clear on. I need to elaborate on that then. Much appreciated.

The actual range of that lowered range only applies to spores that spread by themselves. 

And yes it's complicated, but that's why it's suggestions and feedback. I can't code for them, but I can at least give suggestions for the saryn that I want.

In fairness, I can't see myself playing as her anymore because to me she went from consistent frame to inconsistent frame, and inconsistent frames just feel bad to me. It's why I don't play quite a few of them(titania for one)

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Works with Glaive Prime explosions too which is godly. It's my current go-to melee weapon rigged for viral/radiation/slash because the easiest combo makes the Glaive circle you 3 times at decent damage...giving you 360 damage without a whip (great for spreading spores!)...and the explosion damage is nuts. You can push this even further with Saryn given corrosive procs. Hell, top it off with a Zakti and that Glaive hits like a truck.

I get slash/toxin/viral/rad procs with Saryn...in a single frame, without even using spores or the Zakti 😄

Indeed, just crazy good! I love toxic lash and synapse... Get corrosive, slash from hunter munitions, and toxic... Just melts everything even more than it did..

Couple that with nukor or akbronco prime  top it off with dual ether CO build and the corpses of ur enemies litter the battlefield 😁

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

Pointing out that not adapting isn't clever isn't being rude, it's being factual. This goes for pretty much everything in life if you are unwilling to adapt. Clearly there are a whole bunch of people who have no problem whatsoever adapting to the changes and in fact like them. 

It's simple, Saryn works perfectly fine at all levels as long as you adapt. Don't like the playstyle? Move on...because your criticism isn't objective given the frame works perfectly at all levels. If you don't like the taste of Coke, don't drink Coke...it doesn't make Coke a bad drink.

Here's where your factual evidence falls off.

I have 3 saryns and have tested 15 different builds with differing playstyles each with this rework in many different mission types. 

I don't like the way she plays now. 

Secondly. address how my suggested changes would change your playstyle

[(PSN)Radehx]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Here's where your factual evidence falls off.

I have 3 saryns and have tested 15 different builds with differing playstyles each with this rework in many different mission types. 

I don't like the way she plays now. 

Secondly. address how my suggested changes would change your playstyle

I don't have the slightest issue spreading spores, so it's an unnecessary change imo and making DE consider range nerfs is the very last thing I want.

If you don't like her play style, that's not the issue of the frame of a reflection of whether it is good/bad. It comes down to your subjective taste, and that's not a good reason to adjust frames. I don't particularly like playing as Mesa, but that doesn't make her a bad frame or mean her mechanics are bad.

I run the same 133/100/175/(214+25) setup for ALL levels and in terms of weapons, all of them work now for all reasonable star chart content. I never run out of energy, ever. I always do enough (scaling!!) damage and never have issues spreading spores at levels that warrant their use. I have zero issues when it comes to dodging damage either because Molt is super reliable now. And I'm apparently not the only one without any issues. 

She's much less of a spammer now which is great and you can finally use so many more weapons with her effectively. She's overall much more versatile. You simply have to spend time in the sim to really figure out the new synergies and how to use which abilities when. I've tested her against pretty much all game modes too from low level missions on earth all the way up to multi-hour MOT runs. 

She's awesome now and can deal with all content effectively. If you consider spore spreading an issue, you are simply using spores in the wrong spots.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)Radehx

[DjKaplis]

Hmm, saying that you personally don't like how her abilities function now, I can understand. We are probably just looking for different things when we play. 

As for me she truly feels amazing right now.

(Titania is another matter, she feels fun but can't deny that she currently has many problems that need fixing, I hope they adress these in her rework)

Edited June 13, 2018 by DjKaplis

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

I don't have the slightest issue spreading spores, so it's an unnecessary change imo and making DE consider range nerfs is the very last thing I want.

If you don't like her play style, that's not the issue of the frame of a reflection of whether it is good/bad. It comes down to your subjective taste, and that's not a good reason to adjust frames. I don't particularly like playing as Mesa, but that doesn't make her a bad frame or mean her mechanics are bad.

I run the same 133/100/175/(214+25) setup for ALL levels and in terms of weapons, all of them work now for all reasonable star chart content. I never run out of energy, ever. I always do enough (scaling!!) damage and never have issues spreading spores at levels that warrant their use. I have zero issues when it comes to dodging damage either because Molt is super reliable now. And I'm apparently not the only one without any issues. 

She's much less of a spammer now which is great and you can finally use so many more weapons with her effectively. She's overall much more versatile.

So effectively nothing changes when applied with my changes. Cool

[(PSN)Radehx]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

So effectively nothing changes when applied with my changes. Cool

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't want DE to do another "balance" run by going over her range...because that can backfire easily as previous "balancing" shows. 

And my other point still stands: The issue you list isn't an issue, it's you using spores in the wrong spots...and you keep on ignoring this gameplay issue on your end.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

1 minute ago, DjKaplis said:

Hmm, saying that you personally don't like how her abilities function now, I can understand. We are probably just looking for different things when we play. 

As for me she truly feels amazing right now.

(Titania is another matrer, she feels fun but can't deny that she currently has many problems that need fixing, I hope they adress these in her rework)

That's fair enough, and if you like saryn as is, that's fine. I encourage you to play as her

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Just now, (PS4)Radehx said:

No, that's not what I said. I said I don't want DE to do another "balance" run by going over her range...because that can backfire easily as previous "balancing" shows. 

And my other point still stands: The issue you list isn't an issue, it's you using spores in the wrong spots...and you keep on ignoring this gameplay issue on your end.

If you look closer at my suggested changes, you'll realize why nothing changes for you.

Specifically, death by spores range is reduced only. 

Effectively nothing changes for you otherwise