Abilities

[-SMG-Demiroach]

I think that abilities use should be made to sync with movement controls, where you have a singular button to ready abilities, and execute them with the use of movement/combat controls, for instance using a 1st ability requires the ability ready button, and the left mouse, simplifies controls in my opinion.

I think that we also need mod slots for ability augments, with multiple ability changes, we still suffer from meta builds, most builds are still centered around singular abilities, and those abilities become meta in game, and while there is always a rework of an ability that satisfies some players, it trouble's others, multiple augments of one ability can solve that, and having seperate mod slots, to change abilities will see a rise in less used frames or diverging builds. 

[Omega-Shadowblade]

I don't see how making another step to using abilities simplifies anything. Especially the idea of tying it to movement.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

1 minute ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I don't see how making another step to using abilities simplifies anything. Especially the idea of tying it to movement.

It's not another step, it's elimination of the 1234 keys. It's the integration of using abilities in already established movement and combat keys. For example, let's take excal, we use ab shortened from ability button. Left mouse + ab = slash dash, shift+ ab = radial blind, ctrl+ ab = radial have, melee + ab = exhalted. At the minimum it doesn't have to change, a setting for alternate ability keys could be implemented, so very little coding is required. 

[Omega-Shadowblade]

With all due respect, thats still arguably worse than the 1234 button system. Especially since most of those buttons have other uses. Such a design would be horribly entangling during combat. Not to mention you'd have to be holding down a new dedicated button which in turn means keeping your hands away from movement or aiming capability. With the current system all it takes is a split second to tap a button and return instead of attempting two buttons. In addition tying it to already used buttons may mean interference especially with the shooting button being involved. I'm sorry, but this idea just isn't practical.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

4 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

With all due respect, thats still arguably worse than the 1234 button system. Especially since most of those buttons have other uses. Such a design would be horribly entangling during combat. Not to mention you'd have to be holding down a new dedicated button which in turn means keeping your hands away from movement or aiming capability. With the current system all it takes is a split second to tap a button and return instead of attempting two buttons. In addition tying it to already used buttons may mean interference especially with the shooting button being involved. I'm sorry, but this idea just isn't practical.

I think it's just a matter of perspective and acclimatization, much like the new UI, it may seem impractical to you but with enough experience, I think movement, reaction speed and ability use speed would not only be more engaging but streamlined and practical. Besides, as I said, a option to enable it or not would make transition easier. 

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, -SMG-Demiroach said:

I think it's just a matter of perspective and acclimatization, much like the new UI, it may seem impractical to you but with enough experience, I think movement, reaction speed and ability use speed would not only be more engaging but streamlined and practical. Besides, as I said, a option to enable it or not would make transition easier. 

Look I'm sorry but as a person who is interested in game development as a career, your suggestion makes me cringe because I can see the results of the overlap and its really bad, there is a lot of potential for wasted energy and unintended movement. Its jarring. Experience is NOT the issue here. Also I cannot see this as streamlined in any way. Current power use is streamlined.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

2 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Look I'm sorry but as a person who is interested in game development as a career, your suggestion makes me cringe because I can see the results of the overlap and its really bad, there is a lot of potential for wasted energy and unintended movement. Its jarring. Experience is NOT the issue here. Also I cannot see this as streamlined in any way. Current power use is streamlined.

Well, as a guy that does coding and map design, not that it matters, since I gameplay and experience as a good origin to take ideas from. I see it differently, not to undermine you, but I see it as a evolution in ability use and movement dynamics. There are multiple ways to implement this, and my idea without having a whole Warframe ability 2.0 I see it as the easiest way to implement this. All in all, I'd prefer to see most ability use get reduced to a somewhat passive direction in the same way limbos dash works moving away slightly from energy use meta in game to a gameplay orientated abilities.

[Modeaus]

32 minutes ago, -SMG-Demiroach said:

It's not another step, it's elimination of the 1234 keys. It's the integration of using abilities in already established movement and combat keys. For example, let's take excal, we use ab shortened from ability button. Left mouse + ab = slash dash, shift+ ab = radial blind, ctrl+ ab = radial have, melee + ab = exhalted. At the minimum it doesn't have to change, a setting for alternate ability keys could be implemented, so very little coding is required. 

So let's say your action key is Q, we'll remap the gear wheel. You're using EB which is 'hold Q + mash E' (or F maybe? I remap things). You're facing a hall of enemies and see fire coming straight at you. You need to dodge. But you're out of fingers! Unless you're crazy dexterous you can't get your middle finger to A or D while also pressing Q & E with your ring and index. So you need to release both EB & melee to roll or dodge instead of simply strafing.   

Your idea may work for fire and forget skills but will be terrible for anything active. Also single hand casts which can be done while moving will break because you'll probably need a movement key for a cast. 

There are games that this works well with as the skills are tied to the combat and the current movement. I've played a few MMOs that do this. I don't think it will work for WF tho. 

[-SMG-Demiroach]

24 minutes ago, Modeaus said:

So let's say your action key is Q, we'll remap the gear wheel. You're using EB which is 'hold Q + mash E' (or F maybe? I remap things). You're facing a hall of enemies and see fire coming straight at you. You need to dodge. But you're out of fingers! Unless you're crazy dexterous you can't get your middle finger to A or D while also pressing Q & E with your ring and index. So you need to release both EB & melee to roll or dodge instead of simply strafing.   

Your idea may work for fire and forget skills but will be terrible for anything active. Also single hand casts which can be done while moving will break because you'll probably need a movement key for a cast. 

There are games that this works well with as the skills are tied to the combat and the current movement. I've played a few MMOs that do this. I don't think it will work for WF tho. 

Okay, let's ask how is pressing q different from pressing 1, but let's also say that instead of mapping 4 keys, we map 1 key, or how about the already built in alternative casting system we already have that holds abilities until cast? The only drawback is acclimatization. With Warframe players having high reaction and movement skills, it would be unfair to say that that we lack the ability to refrain from mistakes in general, which by the way I and many other veterans still do in the heat of the moment because of the current mapping.

[Modeaus]

I actually forgot that we have the ability to preselect a power and then use it with a quick key. You know why I forgot about that? Because I've never used it. You need to scroll your mouse wheel, check the UI to see what's selected, then press whatever the key is. Or you could just hit 1-4 and do what you need with a single key press.   

Pressing Q is different from pressing 1 because with your suggestion I would also need to hit another key to activate the skill. When I press 1 my skill fires. Immediately. Not to mention that if the extra key I need is shift and I'm already sprinting I need to stop sprinting to cast. And then because I use the combi sprint/roll option will I roll or cast or both? 

We haven't even got into ghosting for people who don't have a good keyboard. I remember before I bought this G710+ I couldn't cast when doing certain actions. That would be worse the more keys you need to press.  

I accept what you're saying about us as players adapting and I'm sure we would. But why? What's the benefit of this suggested system over simply hitting a number key? Would you suggest this in any MMO with a skill bar? Or any shooter with weapons bound to number keys? Why is it appropriate or beneficial here?

[-SMG-Demiroach]

28 minutes ago, Modeaus said:

I actually forgot that we have the ability to preselect a power and then use it with a quick key. You know why I forgot about that? Because I've never used it. You need to scroll your mouse wheel, check the UI to see what's selected, then press whatever the key is. Or you could just hit 1-4 and do what you need with a single key press.   

Pressing Q is different from pressing 1 because with your suggestion I would also need to hit another key to activate the skill. When I press 1 my skill fires. Immediately. Not to mention that if the extra key I need is shift and I'm already sprinting I need to stop sprinting to cast. And then because I use the combi sprint/roll option will I roll or cast or both? 

We haven't even got into ghosting for people who don't have a good keyboard. I remember before I bought this G710+ I couldn't cast when doing certain actions. That would be worse the more keys you need to press.  

I accept what you're saying about us as players adapting and I'm sure we would. But why? What's the benefit of this suggested system over simply hitting a number key? Would you suggest this in any MMO with a skill bar? Or any shooter with weapons bound to number keys? Why is it appropriate or beneficial here?

Well as I said it can be toggled, the aim as I mentioned is to have a system that integrates abilities in a way that will eventually allow us to get rid of energy as a meta in-game, in the same way limbo uses dash, I see this as a future evolution, but it will be difficult to implement. Remember that I suggest certain actions means certain applications of abilities, for instance, radial have and radial blind break movement, so applying the movement restriction as a excuse to say the whole ability change is broken is misunderstanding it and misleading it in a way, at the very least it's not looking at the implementation on warframes, not to mention most warframe abilities work in a similar fashion towards each other in terms of ability placement. Besides doing something like holding shift first then pressing the ability button does not detract from the movement dynamics. And u are correct, the reason we in general don't use the casting toggle, is because of speed, my suggestion only serves to make it easier for the guys that don't have the octopus fingers I do, the movement curve is high, ever try explaining to even other Mr 25 members all the ways to ju nost jump for range? Or dynamically using abilities reactionary, for movement and evasion? Besides, channeling might fall away, or can be integrated in many ways. How often have you either pressed the wrong numbered key, or failed to press an ability because fingers were just not nimble enough?

Edited July 19, 2018 by -SMG-Demiroach

[peterc3]

20 minutes ago, -SMG-Demiroach said:

the aim as I mentioned is to have a system that integrates abilities in a way that will eventually allow us to get rid of energy as a meta in-game

Wait, what?

Limbo's entire schtick is the Rift. Given the properties of the Rift, it makes sense to replace his roll with it, serving as damage reduction. How do you do this to nearly any other ability on any other frame?

The idea that your ability to set up macros to replace energy is a good goal for the game is laughable.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

7 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Wait, what?

Limbo's entire schtick is the Rift. Given the properties of the Rift, it makes sense to replace his roll with it, serving as damage reduction. How do you do this to nearly any other ability on any other frame?

The idea that your ability to set up macros to replace energy is a good goal for the game is laughable.

I think you misread something, I never said anything about macros, the end game I see for instance in eliminating  energy using skills for instance is a charge attack that does a slash dash move. I'm not sure why you find it laughable when you only need a little bit of creativity, afterall DE and the community are quite creative in this regard. I could think up tons of different, practical ways this would work, and the idea I put forward is not just on a whim, I have thought it through.

[peterc3]

13 minutes ago, -SMG-Demiroach said:

I think you misread something, I never said anything about macros, the end game I see for instance in eliminating  energy using skills for instance is a charge attack that does a slash dash move. I'm not sure why you find it laughable when you only need a little bit of creativity, afterall DE and the community are quite creative in this regard. I could think up tons of different, practical ways this would work, and the idea I put forward is not just on a whim, I have thought it through.

You've thought through removing the only limiting factor in spamming abilities in the game? Ignoring that melee already has charge moves in favor of having basic mechanics work differently on certain frames?

Doing something is not sufficient a cost for having access to abilities, at least not at the power level they are currently at. You're describing a fundamentally different gameplay and flow.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

Just now, peterc3 said:

You've thought through removing the only limiting factor in spamming abilities in the game? Ignoring that melee already has charge moves in favor of having basic mechanics work differently on certain frames?

Doing something is not sufficient a cost for having access to abilities, at least not at the power level they are currently at. You're describing a fundamentally different gameplay and flow.

I'm not thinking of limiting spamming abilities, but integrating abilities in combat to avoid single ability focus, attaching them to animations, charge and other mechanisms means that instead of spamming slash dash, you'd charge to dash, and what I'm describing is not a slowdown of the game but an increase in the synchronization with abilities towards Warframe, and I doubt it will change the flow, but gameplay change is essentially what I'm after. You are also forgetting that melee will be changed, and the fact that even charge attacks will be changed, while even channeling may or may not be taken out completely. If you are saying that you don't want the game to be changed, you should be aware how much everything has already changed in terms of mechanics to gameplay, my initial idea is what I think would be a good way to synchronise abilities, what we are talking about now is how I think about what Warframe can be in the future.

[PoisonHD]

Honestly, I've seen some terrible suggestions here, but this is among the worst. This would completely break the movement system by having to hold movement keys and an action key in order to cast abilities. If holding the ability activator, and the one or two other cast buttons overrides movement, that interrupts the entire flow of combat. If it does both, it makes it so you can't precisely aim your skills because they will be conflicting with each other. Having the ability triggers being separate from movement buttons would just be the same as now with an extra button, so there's no point in arguing that.

Right now, there is a freedom of movement while casting abilities, especially if they're one handed.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

14 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

Honestly, I've seen some terrible suggestions here, but this is among the worst. This would completely break the movement system by having to hold movement keys and an action key in order to cast abilities. If holding the ability activator, and the one or two other cast buttons overrides movement, that interrupts the entire flow of combat. If it does both, it makes it so you can't precisely aim your skills because they will be conflicting with each other. Having the ability triggers being separate from movement buttons would just be the same as now with an extra button, so there's no point in arguing that.

Right now, there is a freedom of movement while casting abilities, especially if they're one handed.

Maybe read some of my responses to comments similar to this.

[PoisonHD]

8 minutes ago, -SMG-Demiroach said:

Maybe read some of my responses to comments similar to this.

I did, and they make no sense, and still feels like they're completely interfering with movement, and it's hard to see how you think it is a good idea.

Black Desert Online does sort of the same thing, and you feel like you're railroaded on a specific set of actions and not free to move. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by PoisonHD

[-SMG-Demiroach]

2 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

I did, and they make no sense, and still feels like they're completely interfering with movement.

Black Desert Online does sort of the same thing, and you feel like you're railroaded, not free to move. 

You can't say feels like if it is not implemented yet, I play black desert aswell so I understand, but if you read, I explained that they do not interfere, the only problem is the initial implementation where people will need to adapt, but in my opinion as a person that played Warframe for 5-6 years almost without fail, going through all the changes of the movement system, from the minor almost unnoticed changes, to developing my own acrobatic style through each iteration through nuance not easily achieved, the current system breaks some of extended ability acrobatics, if I don't use a 8 buttoned mouse, or if I have to use octopus fingers to get those abilities. In the end the only way I see this go wrong is with failed execution. Let's take volt, and while holding down left click, to fire your weapon you tap your ability button to fire your first, you let go and your firing of weapon doesn't break either, so now, the only difference is you tapping the ability button instead of pressing 1. Or the second ability, you are holding shift to run, you tap the ability button to activate speed, instead of pressing 2, or activate shield press ctrl and press ability button. Now, one button easily mapped, Vs 4, which give you greater freedom, you assume that there is a break in flow, but there is none.

[Atsia]

I'm with the the others on this, this feels a completely unnecessary drastic change to solve one issue. I think there are much better ways to fix the issue than reworking the mapping and activation of abilities to involve the movement, even if you could acclimate to it. It's much more clear as it is now with one button press than needing a specific movement or prerequisite to then activate the ability.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

38 minutes ago, Atsia said:

I'm with the the others on this, this feels a completely unnecessary drastic change to solve one issue. I think there are much better ways to fix the issue than reworking the mapping and activation of abilities to involve the movement, even if you could acclimate to it. It's much more clear as it is now with one button press than needing a specific movement or prerequisite to then activate the ability.

Well, we have 4 buttons to do this with, and my reasoning is for the evolution of the way we use abilities, technically, we have a few abilities that really integrate with the frames, and they feel forced and disjointed especially with the energy system. Energy, health and ammo pickups are a mechanic that comes from a game before Warframe, with they way this game is evolving, I feel that there is a need to revamp that system. Besides, the playstyle, movement and way we play could be majorly benefitted from the ability button.

[PoisonHD]

1 hour ago, -SMG-Demiroach said:

. Let's take volt, and while holding down left click, to fire your weapon you tap your ability button to fire your first, you let go and your firing of weapon doesn't break either, so now, the only difference is you tapping the ability button instead of pressing 1. Or the second ability, you are holding shift to run, you tap the ability button to activate speed, instead of pressing 2, or activate shield press ctrl and press ability button. Now, one button easily mapped, Vs 4, which give you greater freedom, you assume that there is a break in flow, but there is none.

That is the exact problem, it requires you to be holding specific buttons, and preforming specific actions to use certain abilities. I don't want to be crouched to put an electric shield down, or be sprinting to turn on speed. I don't want to be shooting my weapon to use my first. I want to be able to do them all individually without having to do any specific actions. That is the break in flow, I am required to be preforming specific actions to activate abilities, and have lost my freedom to preform them during any action I wish.

I personally use a Razer Naga, so I have never had issues reaching buttons are having to have octopus fingers, but I know what it feels like to not have one from my MC PvP days with hotkeying, it's not very difficult and just makes more sense to have them separate.