Hostig games by players has to go

[FashionFrame]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

I disagree. Imagine a Warframe where anyone can leave after a bounty, ESO wave, etc. without forcing the rest of the squad to sit through a host migration. Imagine always being able to reliably use abilities like Nova's wormhole when playing public instead of passing right through it due to lag. Dedicated servers would greatly improve the experience and with DE moving towards larger open areas like PoE and Venus I'd certainly welcome it.

But again, super expensive. 

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, FashionFrame said:

I'd love to see you actually provide those numbers, because I'm not seeing it. Sometimes we just gotta see proof. 

Why? It is common knowledge among the majority of gamers and has been for years. Concurrent numbers are simply 1/10th to 1/20th out of the actual active playerbase. There is nothing odd with it, every game follows the same simple maths.

And regarding the dedicated server thing. Yes it may be costly, that isnt what I'm pointing at. My point is that P2P is trash, rubbish, garbage if you have the option to have dedicated servers. P2P will never be better for gaming. It may be alot cheaper for DE, but it is still total crap to have to put up with it.

And for the people throwing out the whole "use the ping limit". It doesnt work. Mine has been set from everywhere from the standard 300(?) down to 50, I still end up in games where the host has a far higher ping than the limit set. And even when you end up in games that should be smooth (250ms or so) the nature of P2P #*!%s you in the ass compared to dedicated servers. 

I played WoW for close to 8 years on the US servers even though I live in Sweden, never did I experience lag in that game as I do here. I usually sat around 250ms in WoW and it was barely noticable, but here in WF, even a ping of 100-150ms is noticable and feels laggy. This due to how P2P works.

So there are several flaws with P2P.

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[BattlingBacon]

On 2018-08-09 at 3:13 AM, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

If you don't want to get into sessions with high ping, limit the matchmaking search function to lower ping, below 250-300. 

In case anyone doesn't know how to do this:

Escape --> Options --> Gameplay (2nd Tab) --> Matchmaking Ping Limit

[FashionFrame]

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And regarding the dedicated server thing. Yes it may be costly, that isnt what I'm pointing at. My point is that P2P is trash, rubbish, garbage if you have the option to have dedicated servers. P2P will never be better for gaming. It may be alot cheaper for DE, but it is still total crap to have to put up with it.

" we have systems provided to help get the best out of p2p, so use them." Maybe I need to reiterate that. Use recruiting, change matchmaking ping, invite friends, or just simply go SOLO. DE has these to help with your p2p problems. Again....use them. Because this won't be changing any time soon.

And yeah, glad you agree, it's cheaper. Which is why DE won't be using it. Especially when this is a 4 player game, and again, not some big multi-million MMO open world. And I don't see DE putting an insane amount of resources to turn Warframe into one of those. So if you truly are right about the numbers being MUCH higher than steam and others show, then why bother changing it? Seems they're doing just fine without all that fancy, expensive nonsense.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, FashionFrame said:

" we have systems provided to help get the best out of p2p, so use them." Maybe I need to reiterate that. Use recruiting, change matchmaking ping, invite friends, or just simply go SOLO. DE has these to help with your p2p problems. Again....use them. Because this won't be changing any time soon.

And yeah, glad you agree, it's cheaper. Which is why DE won't be using it. Especially when this is a 4 player game, and again, not some big multi-million MMO open world. And I don't see DE putting an insane amount of resources to turn Warframe into one of those. So if you truly are right about the numbers being MUCH higher than steam and others show, then why bother changing it? Seems they're doing just fine without all that fancy, expensive nonsense.

Well with the number of players that WF has there is nothing stopping them from actually adding dedicated servers. As this is a F2P game with microtransactions it pulls in far more revenue than many games that do actually have dedicated servers already. That is a known fact, F2P (or B2P) with microtransactions are far bigger income sources than say a sub based game. So with the current numbers if you compare them to even MMOs there is really nothing stopping DE from adding dedicated servers.

Servers arent that expensive unless you live in backwater US states/towns or 2nd/3rd world countries, even in some of those bandwidth is cheap. It also comes down to more than bandwidth when you run it P2P, it also comes down to hardware. And that can vary a great deal, making people with good connections bad hosts just the same.

The question just comes down to if it is needed. Well in its current state, no, not really since it is a 4 player game. However, if they plan on adding bigger and bigger content that requires better performance then yes, it would be needed. That or simply fixing their matchmaking which isnt working well atm as I said earlier. The ping limit does barely nothing. The things you mention arent actually a solution to the problem, they are bandaids if even that.

 

[FashionFrame]

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well with the number of players that WF has there is nothing stopping them from actually adding dedicated servers. As this is a F2P game with microtransactions it pulls in far more revenue than many games that do actually have dedicated servers already. That is a known fact, F2P (or B2P) with microtransactions are far bigger income sources than say a sub based game. So with the current numbers if you compare them to even MMOs there is really nothing stopping DE from adding dedicated servers.

Servers arent that expensive unless you live in backwater US states/towns or 2nd/3rd world countries, even in some of those bandwidth is cheap. It also comes down to more than bandwidth when you run it P2P, it also comes down to hardware. And that can vary a great deal, making people with good connections bad hosts just the same.

The question just comes down to if it is needed. Well in its current state, no, not really since it is a 4 player game. However, if they plan on adding bigger and bigger content that requires better performance then yes, it would be needed. That or simply fixing their matchmaking which isnt working well atm as I said earlier. The ping limit does barely nothing. The things you mention arent actually a solution to the problem, they are bandaids if even that.

 

Idk, Silverbones clearly states at page 4 that it is indeed costly. Here's a copy paste:

Secondly, let me give you a little bit of what I know. In my day job, I am a SysAdmin for another large video game publisher, and I can tell you this without any hesitation, dedicated servers are not just expensive, they are E X P E N S I V E.

Literally, millions of dollars of network infrastructure are needed to cover games with such large player bases, and on top of that, you have to double up that infrastructure to allow for redundancy. You then multiply that by having to rent datacenters all over the world, and you can see how this cost can quickly become overwhelming.

Edit: This does also not take into account the rental costs that are paid month-to-month for hosting said services. Costs vary of course, but they can total to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to maintain said infrastructure.

It is not about saving a few bucks here and there, dedicated servers for worldwide players can incur costs that would quickly wipe out most small development studios.

----

They might not be a solution, but it's still saving DE money, and those band-aids are there for you, either you like to bleed out or not. Won't change the fact DE really just doesn't want to put in crazy amounts of resources into dedicated servers. Just not worth it. Especially when they're still gaining huge amounts of popularity just fine without them.

Edited August 10, 2018 by FashionFrame

[SneakyErvin]

17 minutes ago, FashionFrame said:

Idk, Silverbones clearly states at page 4 that it is indeed costly. Here's a copy paste:

Secondly, let me give you a little bit of what I know. In my day job, I am a SysAdmin for another large video game publisher, and I can tell you this without any hesitation, dedicated servers are not just expensive, they are E X P E N S I V E.

Literally, millions of dollars of network infrastructure are needed to cover games with such large player bases, and on top of that, you have to double up that infrastructure to allow for redundancy. You then multiply that by having to rent datacenters all over the world, and you can see how this cost can quickly become overwhelming.

Edit: This does also not take into account the rental costs that are paid month-to-month for hosting said services. Costs vary of course, but they can total to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to maintain said infrastructure.

It is not about saving a few bucks here and there, dedicated servers for worldwide players can incur costs that would quickly wipe out most small development studios.

----

They might not be a solution, but it's still saving DE money, and those band-aids are there for you, either you like to bleed out or not. Won't change the fact DE really just doesn't want to put in crazy amounts of resources into dedicated servers. Just not worth it. Especially when they're still gaining huge amounts of popularity just fine without them.

We just dont know which state DE servers are in atm. There is a big chance that the network infrastructure is already there due to login servers etc. This is already an online game, the only thing is that the matchmaking is P2P. We are already playing on dedicated DE servers whenever we enter a relay or cetus, so their network infrastructure already goes beyond the basic login service. So we know that DE can already host several hundreds of player per instance on their servers, several thousands per server when you add up all the relay/cetus instances during Baro or massive PoE events.

So the step to dedicated servers for missions isnt that far away.

[FashionFrame]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We just dont know which state DE servers are in atm. There is a big chance that the network infrastructure is already there due to login servers etc. This is already an online game, the only thing is that the matchmaking is P2P. We are already playing on dedicated DE servers whenever we enter a relay or cetus, so their network infrastructure already goes beyond the basic login service. So we know that DE can already host several hundreds of player per instance on their servers, several thousands per server when you add up all the relay/cetus instances during Baro or massive PoE events.

So the step to dedicated servers for missions isnt that far away.

Guess we'll see in the long run, but I honestly could only see DE doing it if we had some massive player connection game modes, of like......50+ people in one game

[midtarget]

On August 9, 2018 at 1:18 AM, Kerthis said:

Oh please dont even try to defend this situation. First guy is basically saying its my fault coz I didnt make my own premade group and I dare to go to random group finder. This is DE problem coz this settings are by deafult. What your're saying is Im suppose to mittigate that problem by myself which is ridiculous.

Is it really that hard to grasp the idea that you can log onto the developer's architecture that handles all of the game sessions and it is possible by maintaining one mega server for all clinets? Jeez most modern multiplayer games do just that. And yet here we have real archaic solution.

From this we can clearly see you have no idea how servers work, your idea would cause immense lag to anyone outside of Canada and result in massive server shutdowns whenever a hotfix rolls around, essentially limiting all play sessions to 20 minutes or less. It is also needlessly expensive to the point that modern AAA titles can't even pay for it.

 

You're calling the newest variant of online gaming that can function on its own, thereby stopping multiple problems with open world MMO games archaic. P2P is newer than the server system, and solves most of its problems at the cost of uneven connection.

Edited August 10, 2018 by midtarget

[midtarget]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

We just dont know which state DE servers are in atm. There is a big chance that the network infrastructure is already there due to login servers etc. This is already an online game, the only thing is that the matchmaking is P2P. We are already playing on dedicated DE servers whenever we enter a relay or cetus, so their network infrastructure already goes beyond the basic login service. So we know that DE can already host several hundreds of player per instance on their servers, several thousands per server when you add up all the relay/cetus instances during Baro or massive PoE events.

So the step to dedicated servers for missions isnt that far away.

Yes DE can host dedicated servers.

Dedicated servers that are laggy, can't host proper AI, can't use weapons, doesn't render parkour animations, and are stationary models.

Yes, dedicated servers are far away, it's not as simple as: Buy server, connect server to Internet, say "this is our server" there are numerous problems with dedicated servers that would completely sink DE into massive debt after the first month.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, midtarget said:

From this we can clearly see you have no idea how servers work, your idea would cause immense lag to anyone outside of Canada and result in massive server shutdowns whenever a hotfix rolls around, essentially limiting all play sessions to 20 minutes or less. It is also needlessly expensive to the point that modern AAA titles can't even pay for it.

You're calling the newest variant of online gaming that can function on its own, thereby stopping multiple problems with open world MMO games archaic. P2P is newer than the server system, and solves most of its problems at the cost of uneven connection.

That isnt true one bit. None of it is. There would be no issue with servers placed in Canada only, other games have done it, far smaller studios have done it while still being F2P. A dedicated server solves most of the issues connected to P2P. The game simply needs servers big enough to host their players. The size of the game really doesnt matter because you've have a far larger revenue on a big game than a small, so servers are covered in either case.

Marvel Heroes, Neverwinter, STO, CO, ESO, GW2, D3, OW, BDO, ArcheAge, ToR and so on have all done it perfectly fine with dedicated servers since release. Some with and some without regional servers. There has never been issues with latency. edit: Heck even Epic and their Fortnite has dedicated servers set up for far more players than there is in WF, and the part with most players is 100% free to play.

It isnt only about the bandwidth, it is about the hardware/software aswell that makes dedicated servers a far smoother experience. Latency on dedicated servers isnt near as noticable as they are in peer-to-peer environments. You wouldnt notice the lag at all in the same way as we do now under the P2P system. As I said in a previous post. I played from Sweden on US servers in WoW for close to 8 years, never did I experience lag comparable to this game even with ping that was 100 to 150 higher than here. In WF you notice the lag, you may jump to operator and see your frame just stand there far infront of the camera and nothing happens. You may wanna pop in and out fast just for a buff and nothing actually happens except you popping in and out. Those things are non-exsistant on dedicated servers. And to add to that, I've played several other MMOs on US servers aswell, not only WoW and they've never had latency issues. Just as my brother played WaR with me on EU servers without issues. The benefit of dedicated servers can also be seen in FPS games. There is a huge difference connecting to someone through P2P and joining a dedicated server. Even a local P2P connection can have worse performance than a dedicated server located on another continent.

I also dont think DE would be sunk into any debt. If far smaller companies have survived with dedicated servers and far less revenue there should be no problem for DE. Even if people say "oh but they have so many players" it doesnt matter, because more players = higher revenue. If games with zero revenue gains after the initial purchase can make it, so can DE.

Edited August 11, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Daffan]

On 2018-08-09 at 6:13 PM, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

If you don't want to get into sessions with high ping, limit the matchmaking search function to lower ping, below 250-300. 

Ping is not the problem here.

Upload rates and packet loss all exist as problems.

Ever wondered why you have 200 ping and then when the AI spawn your ping spikes to 700? Yes... a ping limit will totally fix that /s

 

[------Solo------]

58 minutes ago, Daffan said:

Ever wondered why you have 200 ping and then when the AI spawn your ping spikes to 700? Yes... a ping limit will totally fix that /s

Sorry never had 200 ping nor spikes to 700, so i never wondered. Sarcastic boi. 

[Daffan]

On 2018-08-11 at 11:18 PM, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

Sorry never had 200 ping nor spikes to 700, so i never wondered. Sarcastic boi. 

And my point was that ping doesn't mean almost anything in this game so 300 is playable, because the majority is client side. What matters is packet loss and host upload, if they cap out on upload or it messes up, your ping/lag sky rockets no matter what your original ping was.  

 

That's why the ping limit matchmaking tool is not the best answer. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Daffan

[(PSN)thecoolman575]

somethin tells me digital extremes doesnt have that kinda server  money though

also keep in mind how limited servers with no hosts are already digital extreme sadly doesnt have triple A money so i doubt we'll be seeing this in thy future

Edited August 14, 2018 by (PS4)thecoolman575
despacito 7

[CeePee]

Keep in mind that money used on servers would be money taken away from other developments of the game. It's been working fine for 5 years, fundamentally changing the connection system would require dev time on the coding side as well, on top of eating pure cash for servers.

Edited August 14, 2018 by CeePee

[(PSN)KatyPerryIsMine]

i have the ping limit set to 100 which is still insanely high most games work at 30 to 50 at best if the servers are super far from me. Since DE has no dedicated servers even with a 100 ping limit i still get many games where. The enemies moonwalk  doors will not open my shots take forever to register and so on because someone thinks they can play video games on a McDonald wi fi or cheap wi fi. You need a Ethernet cable hooked directly into your pc or console and a speed that is from this decade it is not that hard 25mbps is only 30 bucks a month here i pay for 150mbps so i never have to worry about lag yet in any game that still uses the old outdated P2P system i am forced to be at the mercy of people who do not know how internet works.  If i had a ton of friends that play warframe sure i could group with them sadly i do not a public match should not be a dice roll like DND if i am going to have a fun game or a game where i can hardly play at all it is why i stopped taking bows as they require there to be little to no lag to be not a hair pulling experience.

[kyori]

It’ll hurt DE wallet and they won’t smile to you anymore in devstream or tennocon. So no.