Please. Make. Rage-mode, Warframe only, (non-operator)

[SpicyDinosaur]

1 hour ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Okey to be clear: I have used it. I have maxed out all focus trees... to the point where I have literally, many millions uninvested. It is not possible for me to be anymore powerful. As an operator. In the game. As it stands.

Furthermore: had this maxing out process made me an in-game living god clearing the map with the push of a button, I'm sure I would still not enjoy the operator.

Why?

It has no synergy/team work, with other players, unlike Warframes.

It has little to no finesse, unlike Warframes.

It breaks in-game immersion, unlike Warframes.

It is redundant/unnecessary, (only you are forced into using it,) unlike Warframes.

It has no place in the game, except where it has been forced into gameplay, unlike Warframes.

If Warframes were giant mechs, or super Gundam Mobile Suits, or Evangelions and we pooped out of them, to run around as little moon-wizards. I guess I could see some reason for that, but they are not, and there is no practical/good reason. But I digress, forget any reasoned, coherent thoughts as to why operator's are simply silly. It's their gameplay that makes them lessen Warframe as a game.  The operator was the last thing, a game that needed to work on its in game combat needed.    

Yea it wasn't like there was a whole quest involving operators and explaining why things are as they are and....you know we are space ninjas with super powers, right?

 

Your opinion isn't the only one out there, nor do you need to insult others for their opinion.

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, StabbyTentacles said:

It has no synergy/team work, with other players, unlike Warframes.

It has little to no finesse, unlike Warframes.

It breaks in-game immersion, unlike Warframes.

It is redundant/unnecessary, (only you are forced into using it,) unlike Warframes.

It has no place in the game, except where it has been forced into gameplay, unlike Warframes.

1. this is a valid criticism, I would stand behind it except that there are minor valid exceptions: unairu wisps in eidolons, energy dash for team mates, affinity range bonus to affect others, extra channeling damage to take down certain heavies fast, void mode sniping, survival life support use, dashing through lasers to finish a botched sortie stealth for a team mate... stuff like that makes it so there is "some" synergy, but arguably the reward doesn't feel like it's worth the lengthy investment.  I would however agree it would be nice to see greater synergy elsewhere to provide more game play options.

2.  This is something I can sorta agree sorta not agree with.  No sliding really inhibits operator movement and feels very unnatural, but extensive dashing with maxed trees can allow you to cross PoE faster than you can in an itzal.  So, sorta yes, sorta no.  Just adding sliding for the mobility factor, even if it wasn't as good as a WF, would be a welcome change.

3. I'd argue operators are completely immersive to game lore, I think the better term might be that it breaks the flow and pacing of the game because of the animation for transference length.  Speeding up the time it takes to get out would be a welcome change, while reentry, especially through operator destruction could remain the same or even have additional penalties in the latter case and still make the mode feel better to play.

4. I can't agree with that.  The difference between having maxed out focus and not is quite substantial to game play.  Free energy being just the most obvious and easy example, but other things exist to discredit this position.  Try this experiment:  deactivate all nodes... see how it changes how you play.  If it doesn't change how you play that's probably because you haven't learned to use your operator with your frame.  Admittedly I'm not even that good with my operator, I've seen videos where people use their operator seamlessly to be an unstoppable powerhouse in conjunction with their frames.  One in particular rings a bell in my mind of a volt bouncing in and out of operator in many hours of endless solo survival, I tried looking for it but I couldn't find it.  That guy knew how to use his operator hella good, bouncing in and out mid air doing crazy flips and dashes and mobility stuff that I wouldn't even attempt.  I guess what I'm saying is, if you choose not to use it and get good with it, that's fine, but that's a choice, in many cases there are people that do and become endlessly more powerful as a result.

5.  Absolutely disagree.  With a good operator set up I now have the freedom to bring ANY frame to a sortie spy and can use my operator to do the stealth portion of the mission.  This gives players the ability to play any frame they want rather than be (sorta) forced into a stealth frame.  You aren't forced to use a stealth frame since you can technically complete any stealth with any frame but stealth frames save a lot of time... operators arguably make stealth the easiest possible.  The closest thing to them is ivara with her augment, but even then operators travel faster and through lasers with dash, so, I have to call absolute BS here.  This allows me to take nidus to a sortie stealth and not feel like I'm either slowing things down or leeching.

All in all I agree that operators could use substantial tweaks to make them better, and I'd like to see that happen, but I can't take that so far as to mean they are garbage and should be removed from the game, that seems hyperbolic.  Additionally some people enjoy the challenge of doing stuff like operator only content, and that's a valid way to play too.  Granted those players are likely a very small minority, but why take that away from them as a possibility?

My interpretation based on what you've said so far is that you haven't take the time to get good with your operator and this is as bad as someone claiming that such and such gun sucks when they haven't learned to mod properly for it... it's an argument from ignorance and that paints a wrongfully bad picture.

I'm not saying operators couldn't be better, but I am saying I think you're spewing undo hate on them.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[AvaloN1101]

6 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You can decide what is fun for you, you cannot decide what is fun for everyone and the condescension of your post is not welcome, please refrain from that in the future.  It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to put down someone's opinion as inferior.

Additionally, you put my post in a hyperbolic narrative that misrepresents it, also not appreciated.  Perhaps don't comment on my stuff until you cam engage without rhetorical attack please and thank you.

It seems I hit a nerve because you are twisting what I said to suit your own argument.

"That... doesn't sound like fun." "If you like to be lazy and take it easy, then cool beans. You do that." I was under the impression these were my opinions. Take it or leave it. And regardless, unless there is some crazy, intense button-mashing I'm not aware of when clearing Defense waves with Saryn, then it still retains a basic truth that I added my own opinion to. 

Your post essentially described your own process of finding certain mechanics not fun, then you improve yourself and get strong gear and then it became fun. You then suggested to the OP to do what you did to have the same fun; "Simple solution? Up your arsenal." So which of us here is trying to force our own view of "fun" on another? And which of us is putting someone else down for their opinion? Here's a clue: it's the same person.

Let me be a bit more clear, I wasn't trying to offend anyone. On the contrary, that was just me trying to add my own little bit of personal humor into a post, to lighten up the mood. It seemed things were getting geared towards a useless argument instead of a constructive debate. If I did offend anyone, then I do apologize. 

If you got salty at something I said, then it's your own problem to deal with. Even if there was a bit of exaggeration here and there, calling it a 'hyperbolic narrative' is more of your own point-of-view of it, no? 

Try being a bit more flexible, a bit more objective. Nit-picking words and finding insults and personal attacks in everything isn't fun, it's stressful, I know this better than most. This is the internet, lots of misconceptions happen. I'm just here to have fun. 

[AvaloN1101]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Yea it wasn't like there was a whole quest involving operators and explaining why things are as they are and....you know we are space ninjas with super powers, right?

 

Your opinion isn't the only one out there, nor do you need to insult others for their opinion.

I can agree that OP was a little heavy-handed in his wording in a few posts, but I don't really see where he is insulting anyone? It's all just opinion. I can agree with some points and disagree with others. But I'm not seeing where he's being insulting?

[StabbyTentacles]

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Absolutely disagree.  With a good operator set up I now have the freedom to bring ANY frame to a sortie spy and can use my operator to do the stealth portion of the mission.  This gives players the ability to play any frame they want rather than be (sorta) forced into a stealth frame.  You aren't forced to use a stealth frame since you can technically complete any stealth with any frame but stealth frames save a lot of time... operators arguably make stealth the easiest possible.  The closest thing to them is ivara with her augment, but even then operators travel faster and through lasers with dash, so, I have to call absolute BS here.  This allows me to take nidus to a sortie stealth and not feel like I'm either slowing things down or leeching.

And... now being able to take ANY frame to any mission, is kinda the point. There are a total of 57 Warframes consisting of both original models and special variants. But for the sake of arguement lets say 20+ frames. And now, you need only 1. Seems a little shortsighted? Impractical? Nonfunctional? Unworkable?

Why have 20+?

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

operators arguably make stealth the easiest possible.

Indeed.

9 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

This allows me to take nidus to a sortie stealth

You do see the other side of this assessment?

In broad strokes, being able to do everything with any frame kinda undermines the entire game. Why even bother using a stealth frame? I'm really not trying to harsh your buzz; I do see the short term up side. 

10 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Your opinion isn't the only one out there, nor do you need to insult others for their opinion.

I read this just now, think its relevant...

8 hours ago, AvaloN1101 said:

It seems I hit a nerve because you are twisting what I said to suit your own argument. acrimony.

So take a walk, smell some flowers or something...

10 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

My interpretation based on what you've said so far is that you haven't take the time to get good with your operator and this is as bad as someone claiming that such and such gun sucks when they haven't learned to mod properly for it... it's an argument from ignorance and that paints a wrongfully bad picture.

I can see how you thought this, and while to a degree you may be right. I have now had years of using it, I am 'good' with it. And while it has a great many flaws re it's current in-game experience. It has even greater failings when examined to even the slightest (most superficial) degree. 

I'll use your gun analogy.

Let's give the operator a new gun, one that shoots like a Quanta, only it is now melting everything, everything, why use any other gun in the game? 

And if you do, you know you're now short changing yourself. Yes you can still use all those other weapons, and yes some of them are far more fun to use. But as far as getting stuff done, you really only have the one option.

Making the game easier/simple is kinda counter productive. Yes, you can now run a 7 hour survival solo, but why?

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, StabbyTentacles said:

 

1) Why have 20+?

2) You do see the other side of this assessment?

In broad strokes, being able to do everything with any frame kinda undermines the entire game. Why even bother using a stealth frame? I'm really not trying to harsh your buzz; I do see the short term up side. 

3)

Let's give the operator a new gun, one that shoots like a Quanta, only it is now melting everything, everything, why use any other gun in the game? 

And if you do, you know you're now short changing yourself. Yes you can still use all those other weapons, and yes some of them are far more fun to use. But as far as getting stuff done, you really only have the one option.

Making the game easier/simple is kinda counter productive. Yes, you can now run a 7 hour survival solo, but why?

1) because MR, because completion, because variety/fun, because more trades per day is more plat, because whatever, you decide your own reasons to play the game man, I'm not here to convince you how to have fun, because while you can bring anything, it doesn't make it optimal, because while you could bring something optimal it might be more challenging/fun not too...  yeah, this argument is bad imho.

2) I see your argument and while you see this as a detriment, I see it as a boon.  Giving players more options and choices works out to the benefit of the player and the benefit of DE's wallet.  If you don't like a particular thing, don't use it, as you've chosen not to, but taking away options is always bad practice.  Where as you see something detrimental, I, DE, and many other players see it as a net positive.  I can understand "I don't like operators so I don't use them" as a valid criticism, but I can't abide "No, people should only be able to play the way I LIKE TO PLAY!" that's never a good argument.  You have the option to play how you want.  And of all the times operators are forced on you it's for what?  15 minutes total game time out of 1000s of hours of play?  give me a break.  That's barely enough to consider learning how to use it.  I can't agree with your assessment here.

3) The reason to choose a different weapon is because you want to.  If you don't want to you don't have to.  You know what I run with most of the time?  Nidus, Kohm with god riven and maiming atterax with a stupid riven on my akstilletto prime for nullie bubbles... why do I run that meta most of the time?  Because I value efficiency.  I don't have to use anything else unless I feel like it, and generally I'd rather get sh*t done, because unless I'm running a daily sortie, I'm either helping out my clan, or collecting stuff to give away in my clan because I already have all the stuffs...  You and others however, may prefer some sort of enhanced challenge... that's fine, you can choose to do that.  Don't run that meta.  Complaining that you don't have an option when you do have the option is disingenuous.  What you're really complaining about is that the game isn't perfectly balanced, and sorry, not sorry, it' ain't ever gonna be.  There are too many variables.  Ultimately the argument falls flat because your'e complaining you don't have a choice when you realistically do.  If you don't want to run meta, you don't have to.  If you don't like pugs, you don't have to use them.  If you only want to play your way YOU HAVE THAT OPTION... but what you don't get to do is force everyone to play the way YOU WANT.  That's not cool, and even proposing it is crappy.  Taking away options from players is always a bad thing.  Increasing balance, generally a good thing, but at no point is taking away options OK, I will never back that kind of extremist BS.  My harshest criticisms of DE have been when they flat out removed something rather than balanced it reasonably.

In total you've been forced to play maybe 15 min of operators to complete the story mode.  Outside of that, every instance of operator usage was a choice you made, including eidolons since they aren't necessary content, nor do you have to use your operator (you can let your team do that for you and leech) to complete them.  So, sorry not sorry you had to spend 15 whole minutes using a game mode you didn't like out of a 3000 hour game that is free.  I can't even pretend to feel sympathetic here.

Additionally if your complaint is there was something about a 3000 hour game that was free that you didn't like... well join the club!  Literally nobody has zero criticisms of DE after 1000 hours in game time, but it's up to us to recognize responsibly that DE isn't here to cater to one individual, they are here to cater to a diverse global audience, and they do a pretty fine job of it most of the time (as long as it isn't launch day for a new patch).  Because there is a handful of things you don't like in 1000s of hours of content that you get for free, I'd call that a win.  You're not going to like everything and not all content is made to cater to you and your play style, so maybe, consider that if a feature isn't for you, that maybe it's not supposed to be and that's not only OK, it's to be reasonably expected.

If you want to have a shot at making a real difference, propose some actual solutions.

Instead of crapping on and complaining about operators, maybe make a thread with your suggestions on how to make it better.

I know for a fact I've made suggestions and I'm a fairly newer player (less than a year), and a few months later they are in a patch or announced at tennocon.  This has happened probably half a dozen times.  They don't ever acknowledge me of course, because they can't to avoid having to pay me anything for potential intellectual property and such because i'm not an employee, and while they may have been doing that stuff anyway, it's likely at least one of those ideas might have been pushed for in one of my idea threads.

If you have good ideas, why wouldn't DE listen and make the game better?  Be productive by using constructive criticism, rather than just bagging on operators and whining that they suck.  We all get it bro, operators could be a lot more awesome, and probably should be, but lets hear your ideas in a new thread where people can openly debate the merits and flaws of those ideas.  Plus you'll have to test that out, see if it holds up to community criticism.  If it does and a lot of people like your idea, maybe DE will take notice and put it in a future patch, or if they don't, maybe they have a good reason not to, but at least then you're part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[StabbyTentacles]

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

If you have good ideas, why wouldn't DE listen and make the game better?

Do you even Warframe? Only 1 guy gets to have idea's, and that's Stevo McStevesteve. No insult, no put-down, just a pretty obvious observation.

Hence we have Operator's. And if/when Stevo McStevesteve gets bored with them, they will meet the same fate as all game assets he's grown bored with.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Be productive by using constructive criticism, rather than just bagging on operators and whining that they suck.

I have, you have failed to see any of it when throwing statements such as this about, but, enjoy insulting me, if that's your thing. 

I have said quite a bit about Operator's and why they're redundant, and don't belong in the game. This is not only my perspective/viewpoint.

I have not called for them to be removed, as I understand some like them, (While other's might even be a little fixated on them.) I have only asked that they not be pushed into areas they do not belong. Pretty clearly constructive criticism. I have then been asked why they are not my favourite thing in the world, where I have then responded thus.

4 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

If you want to have a shot at making a real difference, propose some actual solutions.

Quote

Make them optional, and give player's far greater customization. In appearance, and gameplay.

You want/enjoy Operating, well operate your a😈 off, hit the maximum Operator option.

You find Operating is not for you, hit the minimum Operator option. 

Its hard to see how this 'solution' wasn't already seen. Of course it was. But the decision was made to push them onto players. I'm not a huge fan of that. You might be. 

I consider they should have been made optional. Like all other aspects of the game. 

If they were complete spellbinding lightening in a bottle, then everybody would've used them... 

I'll say once again, I have only asked that they not be pushed into areas they do not belong. Pretty clearly constructive criticism.

 

 

[Klokwerkaos]

9 hours ago, StabbyTentacles said:

Do you even Warframe? Only 1 guy gets to have idea's, and that's Stevo McStevesteve. No insult, no put-down, just a pretty obvious observation.

Hence we have Operator's. And if/when Stevo McStevesteve gets bored with them, they will meet the same fate as all game assets he's grown bored with.

I have, you have failed to see any of it when throwing statements such as this about, but, enjoy insulting me, if that's your thing. 

I have said quite a bit about Operator's and why they're redundant, and don't belong in the game. This is not only my perspective/viewpoint.

I have not called for them to be removed, as I understand some like them, (While other's might even be a little fixated on them.) I have only asked that they not be pushed into areas they do not belong. Pretty clearly constructive criticism. I have then been asked why they are not my favourite thing in the world, where I have then responded thus.

Its hard to see how this 'solution' wasn't already seen. Of course it was. But the decision was made to push them onto players. I'm not a huge fan of that. You might be. 

I consider they should have been made optional. Like all other aspects of the game. 

If they were complete spellbinding lightening in a bottle, then everybody would've used them... 

I'll say once again, I have only asked that they not be pushed into areas they do not belong. Pretty clearly constructive criticism.

 

 

Criticizing your post arguments is not the same thing as personally attacking you even if you personally feel that way, this mistake is often referred to as confirmation bias, or in some cases, disingenious behavior.

What I will say is that what you and I have as benchmarks to clear for what constitutes constructive criticism is very different and with that I see no reason to engage you further as I don't expect anything good to come from further interactions.

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[-.SP.-G43riel]

On 2018-08-13 at 8:42 PM, StabbyTentacles said:

To clarify. There is: plenty, a deluge, an avalanche, of operator content

where? are we playing really the same game? Operator is used only either during Quests or in Eidolon Hunts
your statement makes no sense