Endless Scaling, Peculiar Difficulty Modifiers, and Internal Progression

[Synpai]

This thread will discuss/attempt to improve upon systems in Warframe that can be better implemented with "End Game" in mind (some of them are a bit out there, but I'm sure there's parts to enjoy for most).

I enjoyed The Sacrifice, but currently content/progression is us waiting for DE to throw fish onto our plate; I'd rather them give us a way to fish (metaphorically speaking).

(I wasn’t able to finish this post before Elite Alerts were teased, but yes...that’s a step in the right direction)

 

Umbra and Internal Warframe Progression

Spoiler

I understand that each Umbra Warframe (assuming DE will stick to wanting to do more) will have to have a story surrounding them, but I don’t feel that players should have to wait for that story to come to get the Umbra version of a frame.

Long story short, Umbra feels like something that could’ve used a system that allowed players to work for and build Umbra Warframes at some pace determined by DE. In other words some type of internal progression system for Warframe variants. 

For example, farming materials for umbra schematics and ritual materials and having to pass all of the mastery tests with a single warframe in order to unlock the umbra version of your Warframe (Not exactly those steps, but somewhere in that ballpark; Limited to one Umbra warframe every few weeks). Quests could be added later to introduce the lore behind them along with accompanying mods or something.

 

Okay, I know it's a stretch, but I feel we could use this on some level...

This along with some of the other ideas come with a major caveat of mastery overload since the pace would no longer be based on what was getting released. I'm not necessarily against Umbra polarities, but I'd rather have something.....involving more effort that didn't result in trivializing Umbra frames (I ranked my non-umbra Inaros to 30 twice GG I can fit all the mods) or .001% drop chances (WTS Umbra Forma 1,000,000 ). It's a tough act to balance.

 

(Elite) Sanctuary Onslaught, Scanning, Vandal Weapons and Simaris Standing

Spoiler

My first thought was"rewards suck," but I understand why the rewards are the way they are to some extent; however I feel that Onslaught could’ve added an alternative to gaining Simaris syndicate standing and SCANS:

1. A chance to scan enemies on kill (possibly a scanner augment for Sanctuary Onslaught)
2. Possibly an increase to Simaris standing gains the longer you last
3. More enemy diversity (Wild Kavats, Inaros Rock enemies, Vomvalysts (maybe Elite only), Basically non-boss enemies; mini-bosses should be fine)
4. Chance to spawn Sythesis targets (adds Standing and Efficiency on scan, removes efficiency on kill;That way nukes have to throw caution to the wind)
5. Generic Vandal Blueprint - 3 rare vandal materials + 1 Corpus Weapon : a way for players to farm and eventually craft Vandal variants of Corpus weaponry (Similar to Zaw Gilding, stats are increased a certain way for Vandal and another for Wraith. This is me going out on a limb again, but...)

 

Infested Weapon Progression and Helminth

Spoiler

Infested seem to keep getting the short stick in terms of weapon progression.

Screams in Embolist

Helminth could’ve given us the answer to unlock infested mutations (some special abilities or literally some way to power up infested weapons) even if they don't get variants necessarily. 

I.e: Extracting the cyst then feeding it (with certain enemy kills) or combining it with resources to create an enhanced cyst then combining that with an infested weapon at Helminth to give it a Mutation (up to X times): stat bonus and/or random bonus ability/improving its innate ability.

 

Peculiar Mods/ Dragon Keys as Artificial Difficulty Modifiers (no longer gear or mods)

Spoiler

Peculiar mods have pinched a nerve of mine because they’re showered in glitter and stamped with “They’re Just For Fun” when they could’ve been so much more. Fun isn’t mutually exclusive territory.

One of the references used was to The Bane from Borderlands 2, but that weapon wasn’t annoying just to be goofy and annoying. Along with basically making the player run in place, it had a high magazine size, near pinpoint starting accuracy along with being one of (if not THE) highest damaging SMG in the game, stat wise.

 

I completely understand that this came from a place of pure intention and am in no way trying to bash. I just think peculiars could have been fun AND useful merging with Dragon Keys to make “Simulations” (Artificial Difficulty Modifiers) that don’t require a mod slot (Even if it's artificial difficulty...I think it'd add more gameplay options and "challenge" that doesn't result in taking off mods). Something akin to Big head mode in Gears of War: both whimsical, advantageous (easier to shoot enemies) and challenging (Your head is easier to shoot; cover loses some value because your head pokes over) such that:

Please don’t crucify me based on the nonsense below, these are just quick examples. Focus more on the concept rather than my direct implementation. I’m a strong believer of play-testing to balance over taking theories and rolling with em. I don’t imagine if one simulation gives a buff that it should nullify another’s negative necessarily. 

I would like to think that the enemy effects would stack up to four times (maybe some of them able to be maxed when solo), increasing the difficulty and chaos as more teammates engage in the challenge.

Peculiar Growth Simulation: Affects both player and enemies (growths reduce accuracy); 
Peculiar Bloom Simulation: Critical hits deal more damage but a portion of the damage is stored in flowers spawned on enemies and dealt over time; enemies are more likely to crit the player
Peculiar Bleeding Simulation: Player’s health is reduced; Player Loses health over time.  Player gains resistance to toxin and slash damage, increased shield regeneration and capacity, and regenerates health for a few seconds after kills.
Peculiar Speed Simulation: Player sprint speed increased (don't worry it's not a max strength speed); Enemies have a chance to receive the effect of shocking speed.
Peculiar Decaying Simulation: Player trades shields for improved health and armor; Enemies have improved elemental resistances against the player.
Peculiar Extinguished Simulation: Player receives less total damage, but gains increased critical chance and ignores a percentage of armor. All enemies gain increased physical resistance (or armor) against the player.
Peculiar Hobbled Simulation: Player moves at a slower speed (can't sprint), but gains increased damage and a constant cold aura that slows enemies in radius.
Peculiar Nesting Doll Simulation:  Enemies have a chance to spawn more enemies when killed by a player with this active.
Peculiar Orbital Simulation:  The player is occasionally targeted by Orbital Strikes (only damages people with it active).
Peculiar Blind-Fight Simulation:  The player is periodically (at random) surrounded by darkness.
(Team) Peculiar Onslaught Simulation: Enemies are bountiful, but drops less items and affinity (Improved while mode set to solo).
(Team) Peculiar Eximus Simulation: Eximus enemies are bountiful, be sure of your footing!
(Team) Peculiar Fissure Simulation: Rift caution! Enemies may become corrupted, collecting 10 void traces has a chance to trigger a void buff or bonus relic mission award (resets once the buff ends).

Note: It’s not necessary that ALL of the modifiers be “game changing,” but I think it would be better to separate them from mods and gear slots regardless. Also it's possible that some of them may need the entire team to engage in to take effect to prevent trolling, but I think if it's a %chance or increase a single person bursting in your match increasing spawns, eximus units or chance of a rift by "25%" shouldn't be the end of the world or run. 
 

 

Kuva Survival and Scaling of Endless Missions

Spoiler

I think this could be fixed as easy as adding a “Flood Survival” or “ Kuva Onslaught” variant; however, I’d like to see some form of fissure endless interval bonuses be transferred to all endless modes.

 

It's saddening that Kuva farming only feels rewarding if my Kavat finally feels like activating the correct charm buff. It’s easier to manage when fishing and general resource farm because you tend to stick to them for so long you’ll eventually get the benefit (plus you can catch fish normally and just time bait usage and such to capitalize whereas Kuva is waiting around and praying to RNG to happen before the siphon is full). 

Equally I would like to see “generic wraith blueprints (combines 3 rare materials + 1 Grineer weapon to make a wraith variant)” be a reward for some Kuva Endgame  (some parts dropped by Guardians, others from specific mission types, etc.) to allow for Grineer weapon progression. (It's me...jumping one legged out on the limb)

 

The Void's New Purpose as a Bi-Weekly Challenge Tower

Spoiler

After Fissure missions were released, Void became too befitting a name for the place once home to players (Though I suppose The Argon Crystal would be more accurate). I’m not saying in anyway that I want to return to what it once was.

Perhaps we can turn the void into a “Challenge Tower” of sorts that give rewards similar to the Elite Alerts (now that it exists I have a good reference lol). Then add some Bi-weekly Leaderboards to hand out various relic trophies to the Top X clans so that that one clan can start filing their shelves with golden void trophies and rest easy flexing on us all.

Normal Void Tower:

• Level 40-50;
• 3 random missions +1 “boss” wave 
• Random sortie modifiers that reset every 2 weeks

Elite Void Tower:

• Level 80-100 
• 3 random missions + 1 boss wave (x2; so 8 random missions total and a boss wave every 4th)
• Even more random sortie modifiers that reset every 2 weeks

 

Extra: Improving Air Support & Arch Weapon Integration

Spoiler

That feels like so long ago...and a lot of integration has happened since the launch of PoE; however:

1. Arch-Guns and Melees still feel like they’re being shafted in general play. Railjack may bring back their usefulness (by making them usable in a game mode lol), but we already have a precedent for oversized weapons...why not let us call in our Arch guns or Melees as a temporary air support buff.  It could add an alternative to leveling them (not to mention the “Cool Factor”). Part of me wants them to be scaled down in damage to be equippable in base game because they’re so interesting to it hurts (Sometimes I just wanna Bash Regor with his own hands ya know?).
2. More importantly: For the love of all things holy and just...could Air Support not be tied to what ship I’m bringing!?!?!? I have so many cool ship skins and I’m just sitting on the Liset because I enjoy having the air support for sortie spy (and I frequently forget to change ships because the interior is the same lol)

 

Extra: Using the Simulacrum for beta tests

Spoiler

• Simulacrum could be an extension of the dev branch or host new/experimental changes to weapons and warframes to get feedback earlier in the development cycle
• Simulacrum should provide the player "unlimited" capacity to attempt various builds

 

TL;DR/ Summary*:

• Umbra could've been introduced as internal Warframe progression allowing players to "Umbra" Warframes (with the specific quests being introduced later for lore and mods)
• Sanctuary Onslaught could've brought alternative to Simaris reputation gain, more enemy diversity (such as Wild Kavats, Vomvalysts/Sentient, Rock Golems, and other non-boss enemies), and scanning (chance for enemies to be scanned on kills/chance to spawn Sythesis targets).
• Helminth could've been used for infested weapon progression; a method to extract and create an enhanced cyst then combining that with an infested weapon at Helminth to give it a Mutation (up to X times): stat bonus and/or random bonus ability/improving its innate ability.
• Peculiars could have been fun AND useful merging with Dragon Keys to make “Simulations” (Difficulty Modifiers) that don’t require a mod or gear slot. I.E: Peculiar Bloom Simulation: Critical hits deal more damage but a portion of the damage is stored in flowers spawned on enemies and dealt over time (considered a status); enemies are more likely to crit the player (under the same effect).
• Kuva Survival (along with other endless modes) could utilize Fissure Interval Bonuses. There could be permanent "Kuva Flood Survival" or "Kuva (Flood) Onslaught" variants for higher level players to get higher awards.
• The Void could be a Bi Weekly tower challenge with Leaderboards (for trophies), boss waves, and sortie modifiers on top of Elite Alert style rewards.
• Landing Craft Air-Support should be separated from which landing craft is used; Arch-Guns and Melees could be added to an Air Support or scaled down in power to be easier to level and useable in base gameplay.
• Vandal (ESO) and Wraith ("Flood Survival" or "Flood Onslaught") could be made to be internal weapon progression each with differing and defined stat changes; essentially "Vandal and Wraith Gilding"
  • Primaries/Secondaries: Generic Blueprint + Generic Barrel  + Generic Stock + Generic Reciever + Corpus or Grineer weapon to make a Vandal and Wraith upgrade respectively
  • Melees: Generic Blueprint + Blades/Gauntlet/Handle/Guard (whatever's relevant to the melee but equal total parts for them all)

* I didn't think I would have to point this out, but the TL;DR/Summary is exactly that....a summary. There is reasoning, notes and discussion that you are missing out on by relying on these Spark Notes.

EDIT:

On another note: Normal weapon/warframe progression irks me in that you spend so much time putting in levels and forma that if you want to achieve a new build you sometimes have to build a whole duplicate weapon (less commonly)/warframe (more commonly). Like why do we have Config slots and swap polarity options when they don't really do anything useful. I'd much rather spend money on config slots that let me actually re-polarize my already invested forma for a different build than continue to pump forma into duplicates.

I think Blade n Soul is a good example of the type of weapon progression I'd like to have (minus the feeding weapons to level) where a player can start off with any weapon but reach the same level of content in the end.

 

Whew....I finally got it all down......be gentle...

Edited December 18, 2018 by Synpai

[Synpai]

Bump. For I should not post threads at 5 am.

[Nerf_SupYo]

Quote

Sanctuary Onslaught could've brought alternative to Simaris reputation gain, more enemy diversity (such as Wild Kavats, Vomvalysts/Sentient, Rock Golems, and other non-boss enemies), and scanning (chance for enemies to be scanned on kills/chance to spawn Sythesis targets).

And potentially something cool along the lines of simiaris having blended/mutated enemies you'd previously scanned into a new one for you to...then scan again (repetitive i know but follow me) to unlock those enemies in the game itself. If that makes sense.

Which it might not.

[Synpai]

3 hours ago, ghandibots said:

And potentially something cool along the lines of simiaris having blended/mutated enemies you'd previously scanned into a new one for you to...then scan again (repetitive i know but follow me) to unlock those enemies in the game itself. If that makes sense.

Which it might not.

It makes sense.

Hybrid models come into a bit of an issue.

The thing about wraith/vandal/ umbra is that they tend to just be texture and stat changes, much easier to implement (but a pain in the arse to balance)

[Nerf_SupYo]

15 hours ago, Synpai said:

It makes sense.

Hybrid models come into a bit of an issue.

The thing about wraith/vandal/ umbra is that they tend to just be texture and stat changes, much easier to implement (but a pain in the arse to balance)

Right, and we've had enough of the Grineer Lancer becoming the Kuva Lancer nonsense.

[Synpai]

On 2018-08-20 at 9:20 AM, ghandibots said:

Right, and we've had enough of the Grineer Lancer becoming the Kuva Lancer nonsense.

I actually wish there were a few enemies like Kuva Guardians in normal gameplay...of course if switching to operator was better off-host

[Synpai]

On 2018-08-19 at 5:04 AM, Synpai said:

rest easy flexing on us all.

@Voltage

[CosmicHermitCrab]

I hope after all this effort, DE will copy some of your ideas without credit. 😛

That's what usually happens, if they listen and agree at all.

In the meantime, speed running for the win!!!

Edited August 29, 2018 by CrystalSpark

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

@Voltage

I have no idea where to start because there are so many points going on at once, but I have one comment to make.

Elite Onslaught introducing enemies that are from past events for codex scans is a really good idea. This includes Nightwatch enemies, Inaros Rock enemies, Artificier, Acolytes (yes, Misery too), etc.

[Talonflight]

I dont normally like a lot of ideas that get thrown around here, but these are all pretty solid ideas. +1 from me, I hope DE see's this.

I especially like the idea of "guilding" weapons into Wraith/Vandal/Prisma variants, etc.

[Synpai]

7 hours ago, Voltage said:

I have no idea where to start because there are so many points going on at once, but I have one comment to make.

Elite Onslaught introducing enemies that are from past events for codex scans is a really good idea. This includes Nightwatch enemies, Inaros Rock enemies, Artificier, Acolytes (yes, Misery too), etc.

It would make onslaught so much more interesting and worthwhile x.x Just give us a mass of chaos in enemy types and kill squads lmfao.

 

6 hours ago, Talonflight said:

I dont normally like a lot of ideas that get thrown around here, but these are all pretty solid ideas. +1 from me, I hope DE see's this.

Imma do my best to keep it afloat!

[Nerf_SupYo]

Elite onslaught with enemies based on scans done (ie different players in different squads will see different enemies) AND the lvl scaling based on MR possibly? The general idea makes sense and doesn't (seem) like it would be too hard to implement.

[Synpai]

16 hours ago, ghandibots said:

Elite onslaught with enemies based on scans done (ie different players in different squads will see different enemies) AND the lvl scaling based on MR possibly? The general idea makes sense and doesn't (seem) like it would be too hard to implement.

Well I think it should just be pure random for all non-boss enemies. Basically the entire Sanctuary catalog since someone, somewhere, in some timeline, should have scanned them. That would mean it's still different for people in different squads and still gives vets a way to scan that doesn't involve replaying the game. 

MR scaling shouldn't be hard to implement necessarily, but that would mean scaling based on the average of MRs or something in that vein (since you have 4 people). Which means you can get weird instances where losing a player sometimes makes it harder. You could say scale off the highest MR but even that causes problems since PUGs would give you no idea what level content to prepare for, basically means you're always prepared for +MR 25 content even if it's only +MR 12. I think what you're looking for is where having Peculiar Simulations would come into play through all aspects of gamelay, including (E)SO. 

[Synpai]

On 2018-08-29 at 9:27 AM, CrystalSpark said:

I hope after all this effort, DE will copy some of your ideas without credit. 😛

Bahahaha! They used to actually try to write down names of who they got the idea from, but I think that just became too much of a hassle 

[Synpai]

@NovaTronX what do you think about this?

[Synpai]

FINALLY ARCHWING ON LAND HYPE

[ZoeyCrimson]

Bump the post and this awesome man ❤️

I would love WF Devs to pay attention to this!

[(PSN)TheNotorious91]

Congrats on this, well done! These things (I'm no programmer... but:) seem easy enough to implement, they're variations on already in-game modes. I'm especially a fan of the ESO/ gilded wraith+vandal/ Kuva ideas.

Really hope they see this. Credit to you!

[Synpai]

16 hours ago, (PS4)TheNotorious91 said:

Congrats on this, well done! These things (I'm no programmer... but:) seem easy enough to implement, they're variations on already in-game modes. I'm especially a fan of the ESO/ gilded wraith+vandal/ Kuva ideas.

Really hope they see this. Credit to you!

 

18 hours ago, KitsuneZoey said:

Bump the post and this awesome man ❤️

I would love WF Devs to pay attention to this!

Thanks! I code in some of my free time so most of the time I consider ease of implementation, but I do love to go out on limbs and push design, live on the edge a little.

[Teridax68]

There's a lot to this that I agree with:

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Umbra could've been introduced as internal Warframe progression allowing players to "Umbra" Warframes (with the specific quests being introduced later for lore and mods)

I completely agree with this. In general, I think different iterations of the same frame or weapon should simply be skins to the frame/weapon in question, rather than a wholly new entity with more stats. This could be retroactively done with Excal Umbra, and beyond that I much prefer the idea of awakening the warframes that I have, rather than abandoning the frames I've played for literal hundreds of hours, and put Forma and Focus lenses into, for something else that does marginally more. This, in turn, I think could fit better into what we saw in The Second Dream, and could be a new way of having us rediscover our frames, instead of being just one extra layer of slight power creep and repackaged content.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Sanctuary Onslaught could've brought alternative to Simaris reputation gain, more enemy diversity (such as Wild Kavats, Vomvalysts/Sentient, Rock Golems, and other non-boss enemies), and scanning (chance for enemies to be scanned on kills/chance to spawn Sythesis targets).

This I also agree with. If nothing else, it'd be nice and would make sense to gain standing with Simaris by conducting that sort of research for him, and I also agree that there's room for a lot more variation in Sanctuary Onslaught, particularly since it's a mode we're encouraged to grind repeatedly.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Helminth could've been used for infested weapon progression; a method to extract and create an enhanced cyst then combining that with an infested weapon at Helminth to give it a Mutation (up to X times): stat bonus and/or random bonus ability/improving its innate ability.

This I don't really agree with, mainly because I dislike the idea of giving weapons stat-ups. I'd much rather have sidegrades than upgrades, and in the case of Infested weapons, I think we just need more of them, rather than a whole new system.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Peculiars could have been fun AND useful merging with Dragon Keys to make “Simulations” (Difficulty Modifiers) that don’t require a mod or gear slot. I.E: Peculiar Bloom Simulation: Critical hits deal more damage but a portion of the damage is stored in flowers spawned on enemies and dealt over time (considered a status); enemies are more likely to crit the player (under the same effect).

I very much like the core idea behind this. Ultimately, I think difficulty should be a matter of player choice, and while I personally dislike the current model for difficulty, i.e. just raising enemy stats, I think it'd be much better for balance if the game didn't have to worry about making difficult content for everyone, and instead gave players the option to set their own difficulty: even something as simple as an item that'd reduce the damage you'd deal by X% and increase the damage you'd take by Y% could already easily replicate enemy levels as we have them now.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Kuva Survival (along with other endless modes) could utilize Fissure Interval Bonuses. There could be permanent "Kuva Flood Survival" or "Kuva (Flood) Onslaught" variants for higher level players to get higher awards.

This sounds good. I haven't played much Kuva Survival, but having the option to raise the stakes for better rewards I think is something most people can get behind.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

The Void could be a Bi Weekly tower challenge with Leaderboards (for trophies), boss waves, and sortie modifiers on top of Elite Alert style rewards.

I like the sound of this. This would be a completely new mission type, but I think there's room for plenty more higher-end challenges for players to run, and leaderboards could encourage competition and repeat play without even needing to add that many other rewards.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Landing Craft Air-Support should be separated from which landing craft is used; Arch-Guns and Melees could be added to an Air Support or scaled down in power to be easier to level and useable in base gameplay.

Agree fully on this one. I think one of the golden rules of game design that have emerged over the past few years, and not just for Warframe, is to avoid forcing people to make cosmetic choices when they're making gameplay choices, and vice versa. When I'm picking a landing craft, I'm basically choosing how I want to look on the loading screen, not whichever item I want to deploy on the ground that doesn't even bring up my landing craft's visuals. 

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

 

• Vandal (ESO) and Wraith ("Flood Survival" or "Flood Onslaught") could be made to be internal weapon progression each with differing and defined stat changes; essentially "Vandal and Wraith Gilding"
  • Primaries/Secondaries: Generic Blueprint + Generic Barrel  + Generic Stock + Generic Reciever + Corpus or Grineer weapon to make a Vandal and Wraith upgrade respectively
  • Melees: Generic Blueprint + Blades/Gauntlet/Handle/Guard (whatever's relevant to the melee but equal total parts for them all)

As with infesting weapons, I'd rather avoid internal weapon progression in the form of just more stats. If a weapon is underperforming, it could just use a buff. In the case of variations of the same weapon such as Vandal, Wraith, Prisma, Dex, even Syndicate and Prime, I personally feel they should just be skins for the base weapon, and could do with improvements to allow for better customization to their scheme.

On 2018-08-19 at 10:04 AM, Synpai said:

Whew....I finally got it all down......be gentle...

These are some really good ideas, congrats on putting them all down to writing in this thread!

[Synpai]

30 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This I don't really agree with, mainly because I dislike the idea of giving weapons stat-ups. I'd much rather have sidegrades than upgrades, and in the case of Infested weapons, I think we just need more of them, rather than a whole new system.

I agree we do need more, but considering how long the embolist and synapse have been around I have no idea what DE intend to do with infested weapons in terms of braton->braton primed. There's something just....joyful to the idea of working to make your weapon better as opposed to "We got Dual Toxocyst primed guys time to throw the normal away and get the power creep"

So to clarify what I'm looking for is away to take infested weapons like the Dual Toxocyst and merely take steps to make them better (primed, vandal and wraith variants start to make some of these weapons look like toys than something you can invest in, both stat wise and unique ability wise),not make new weapons or necessarily stat increases (Because they could just buff them like you said although I think that takes some of the feeling of investment if that makes any sense). The "Mutation" process could also yield in the dual toxocysts' frenzy buff lasting longer with each mutation (to a cap) or the Caustacyst's goo dealing more damage or covering a larger radius.

47 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Agree fully on this one. I think one of the golden rules of game design that have emerged over the past few years, and not just for Warframe, is to avoid forcing people to make cosmetic choices when they're making gameplay choices, and vice versa. When I'm picking a landing craft, I'm basically choosing how I want to look on the loading screen, not whichever item I want to deploy on the ground that doesn't even bring up my landing craft's visuals. 

Surprising how long it takes them to fully eradicate old principles like rare kavat ability mods dropping when you get the ability when you build the pet

 

49 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

As with infesting weapons, I'd rather avoid internal weapon progression in the form of just more stats. If a weapon is underperforming, it could just use a buff. In the case of variations of the same weapon such as Vandal, Wraith, Prisma, Dex, even Syndicate and Prime, I personally feel they should just be skins for the base weapon, and could do with improvements to allow for better customization to their scheme.

I think that base weapons should actually be linked to all of their variants. The variants should act as "side grades" (Tigris and Sybaris are probably the closest to this) 

I.E(this is hard to do textually lol): 

                  Dex Sybaris

Sybaris ->  Sybaris Primed

                   Prisma Sybaris (not real but go with it)

The Primed Sybaris bolsters the more balanced IPS, status and crit, the Dex: higher slash and crit at the cost of lower status a slight increased delay between shots, the prisma: higher puncture and leans more toward status than crit with a slightly decreased delay between shots. Where each of the Sybari share polarities and you're merely selecting which "form/evolution" to use. To counteract the decreased forma usage we could then buy config slots that let us re-polarize.

Weapons should contribute to that RPG feeling in warframe;

Stick->Wooden Sword->Steel Sword-> (Kill Dragon) Dragon Sword -> ETC.

                                                                (Kill Wyvern) Wyvern Sword

 

Staff->..........................................................-> Master Polearm

If they buff weapons and provide no variants it's like starting with a wooden stick that just suddenly got patched to be as good as the [some tier] of weapon.

Staff                                                              ->Buffed Staff  

Lance ->.......................................................->Master Polearm

I know the qualms against stat progression, but it's kind of needed to some extent IMO. SOME weapons do need buffs of some kind, but some just need a path to variants that surpass their state. 

Spoiler

 

 

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

I agree we do need more, but considering how long the embolist and synapse have been around I have no idea what DE intend to do with infested weapons in terms of braton->braton primed. There's something just....joyful to the idea of working to make your weapon better as opposed to "We got Dual Toxocyst primed guys time to throw the normal away and get the power creep"

I know the qualms against stat progression, but it's kind of needed to some extent IMO. SOME weapons do need buffs of some kind, but some just need a path to variants that surpass their state. 

I think that kind of reasoning works for most games, but not Warframe. Warframe is not a game where you start out as a whelp in rags and ascend to demigod status later on. You are a demigod from the very beginning, and every weapon you touch is one you can use to devastating effect. The game currently does feature a whole lot of vertical power progression, but that system has only worked to the game's detriment, splitting the game along two extremes where one is locked out of content they statistically have no real chance of participating in, and where the other is faced with an in-game universe that utterly fails to challenge them. Because of this, I do not think it is a good idea to implement a progression curve where weapons become purely stronger, which I think also means that there should never be a weapon that's just a better version of another.

However, if there's something I agree with here, it's that I think there genuinely is value to customizing one's weapons to tailor them to one's playstyle, even if I don't think it should be a pure upgrade process. To take the example of the Dual Toxocyst, if one really wanted to, say, increase its headshot bonuses, even if it meant sacrificing something else, like base damage, that should be an option given to the player. I too enjoy the process of customizing weapons and making them one's own, I just think that too often this gets confused with making a weapon statistically stronger: I agree with you that, as players progress and commit to a weapon, they should be able to fine-tune it to such a degree that they truly feel like an extension of the player's will. That is something I'd support, but I do not think that is incompatible with a model in which all weapons are placed on the same level of power, and remain bound to that standard, with all changes featuring some sort of tradeoff. In fact, I feel such a system would be much more interesting, because that would mean that instead of weapons fitting under some linear progression path, there'd be a far larger number of equally good permutations for any given weapon, each of which could conform much more to the tastes and playstyles of each individual player.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Teridax68

[Synpai]

15 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think that kind of reasoning works for most games, but not Warframe. Warframe is not a game where you start out as a whelp in rags and ascend to demigod status later on. You are a demigod from the very beginning, and every weapon you touch is one you can use to devastating effect. The game currently does feature a whole lot of vertical power progression, but that system has only worked to the game's detriment, splitting the game along two extremes where one is locked out of content they statistically have no real chance of participating in, and where the other is faced with an in-game universe that utterly fails to challenge them.

Agreed. I think we're both somewhat on the same page.

Progression in warframe is a skewed mess. You can easily buy frames and mods to become a god almost out the gate with the exception of some MR restricted frames and weapons.But this is sinking into a discussion that involves a rework of enemy behavior, meaningful damage, cooperation and weapons. There's no real consistency.

Akfuris, terrible -> Dex Furis, a little less terrible.

Tigris, Good -> Any Tigris variant, Jesus holy WHY.

Lenz...Better than most weapons with variants.

I'm looking for weapons to even out, but we can't pretend that the precedent for variants exists. Reminds me of pokemon that have no evolution, leveling them up, using them doesn't quite have the same feeling in comparison to the others you encounter.

When you go from Brakk to a variant it does get overall stronger, but it typically changes in some fashion; equally when you get another variant that too should be at the same level as the other but different. You can't just make the Brakk on the same level as the Pyrana Prime. It doesn't feel right. Now making the "Brakk Wraith" on the same level as the Pyrana Prime: A-OKAY.

Basically it should be:

Sybaris......................->Sybaris Variants

             Tigris.............->Tigris Variants

                           Lenz->Lenz Variants

 

Different starting points and MR restriction ("progression") but the same end. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points, but I don't think it necessarily plausible without removing all variants from the game when instead they could rebalance and make sure the weapons and variants are on the same end but serve different purpose.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, Synpai said:

When you go from Brakk to a variant it does get overall stronger, but it typically changes in some fashion; equally when you get another variant that too should be at the same level as the other but different. You can't just make the Brakk on the same level as the Pyrana Prime. It doesn't feel right. Now making the "Brakk Wraith" on the same level as the Pyrana Prime: A-OKAY.

I don't really see why that can't be the case. What you're basically asking for is for some weapons to be intentionally made inferior to others, on the grounds that it "doesn't feel right" to have them be on the same power level. All of this, in a world where the most powerful entities in the known universe are magical space children, and where even the daintiest of pea-shooter weapons can make enemies literally explode.

1 minute ago, Synpai said:

Different starting points and MR restriction ("progression") but the same end. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points, but I don't think it necessarily plausible without removing all variants from the game when instead they could rebalance and make sure the weapons and variants are on the same end but serve different purpose.

This is fair, and I think we're largely in agreement, I just think that a game in which some weapons are designed to be strictly stronger versions of others means that some weapons are doomed to be MR fodder, and as such merely bloat the game in unnecessary ways. I also feel the purpose of variants is already what any modding system should aim to do: if you want to be able to mod the same weapon for crit or status, you should be able to do so directly on the weapon itself, without having to resort to some alternate version that could just as easily be just an additional skin. In practice, it's not that hard to balance weapons to be viable for crit and status either: you just give them either good crit chance or insane crit damage, plus good status chance that can be brought to 100%, or close to it, with a typical status build, and suddenly your weapon can be built in a variety of ways. After that, it's a matter of tweaking the weapon's base damage. No need for Wraith, Vandal or Dex variants to accomplish the same. 

[Synpai]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't really see why that can't be the case. What you're basically asking for is for some weapons to be intentionally made inferior to others, on the grounds that it "doesn't feel right" to have them be on the same power level. All of this, in a world where the most powerful entities in the known universe are magical space children, and where even the daintiest of pea-shooter weapons can make enemies literally explode.

Yes I am in the sense I mentioned before:

If your "Master Spear (pyrana prime)" is doing 300000000 damage.

 

You should not pick up a basic stick (MK-1 Furis) and do that same damage.

That is different than say picking up or crafting/upgrading(preferably) to a "Diamond Stick" that does 300000000 damage.

 

Now that goes out the window if a game doesn't have variant weaponry. DMC for example you have 3 weapon slots with 2-3 separate choices for each I believe. 

0.Sword (static)

1. Fist -or- Axe

2. Chakrams -or- Scythe

3. Pistols -or- Shotgun -or- Cannon Shot Gun

Here the game offers progression through access and abilities as well as offers mechanical and skill difference as difficulty. however the game had this at the foundation (not to mention you really have allll of these choices to swap through at your leisure).

 

1 hour ago, Synpai said:

Sybaris......................->Sybaris Variants

             Tigris.............->Tigris Variants

                           Lenz->Lenz Variants

It would be neat to have it instead be:

Sybaris->Sybaris Variants

Tigris...->Tigris Variants

Lenz....->Lenz Variants

Where base weapons are all in the same power and variants are higher than their original, but at the same level as one another, but then it starts to pose the question why have MR restricted weapons if everything is the same? Why commit to other weapons if you find one you like that gets the job done well?  Fodder still exists in that personal preference is still a factor. Much like in casual pokemon, doesn't matter if magikarp was the strongest pokemon in the game, you won't see me using a derp fish.

The difference here is that in pokemon you have the option to invest in just about any pokemon and make them good in someway.

 

Rivens were supposed to be this, but it's just not the same because they're all % based increases instead of additional mechanics/effects.

So again, they don't need to be stats but a weapon should be able to be upgraded in some way, that's all I'm looking for.

But I feel DE would have a storm on their hands if they just nerfed all base weapons to the same level and removed all variants, or only made variants have different mechanics simply because of how much change one would have to adapt to, it'd be overwhelming.