Sword Alone! Or, Sword Go Home? Or, Have Sword Get Boned?

[Janzer]

I'm not so sure many people would care or agree with my mentality of Warframe at the moment, but here it is.

 

DE is pushing me away from melee, which is the majority of the reason of why I play the game. I have a very low want to play since update 15 and its subsequent releases because of this.

 

When other people talk about leaving the game, they're doing so because they're complaining about not being able to roflstomp with an already overpowered weapon/frame/power. Or they're complaining because their favorite way to exploit the game has been taken from them.

 

I'm not saying I'm quitting the game or that I'll dramatically exit, that's just dumb. I'm just offering up my perspective as a melee fighter.

 

I'm talking about pure melee mechanics, and the amount of skill it takes to survive without relying on constant abilities to fight even level 40+ enemies. If the game is basically saying I need to rely on powers to be viable, ok, I can understand that. But if I'm relying on powers to be viable, where's the melee fun in that?

 

Give me some melee developing love please!

 

Combine some of those utility mods that are many, or make them part of a focus / path that you can work to through forma'ing your frame.

 

If you forma a frame, maybe "melee path" could be an option for focus, where you get innate utility skills such as:

- increased Knockdown Resistance / Recovery

- increased Stamina Max / Regeneration

- decreased Elemental / Status Effect damage

 

The sad thing is I'm not even asking for BUFFS!!!

 

I'm not saying, well the melee path should increase weapon attack speed or weapon damage based on a focus. I'm just saying:  You're killing melee only as an option DE. We shouldn't have to rely only only 1 or 2 frames that can potentially go melee only. The frames just aren't balance for any real types any more. Saying one frame is a "caster" means nothing when that frame has a standard energy pool compared to another frame that isn't a caster and yet has much higher energy pool (Volt vs Ash / Loki Prime for example).

 

Where people are complaining about not being able to Ult spam an entire level in order to play at their 2 hour survival missions with level 100+ enemies (exaggeration but close), I'm just saying give me some option to even hang out and be viable surviving against the higher level enemies, without needing to resort to Valk's god mode or Trinity's invuln mode.

 

Disable my abilities if I go melee only if you want, I don't really use them when I'm in melee anyways, but just give me increased damage reduction so I can at least live long enough to kill a durn level 70 enemy without relying on abilities to get it done. Because if all I'm doing is using abilities, where's the melee fun in that?

 

There are other ways to give melee only users a boost, such as melee only armor which would give increased stats for damage and status reduction at the cost of disabling, or reducing greatly the effect, any abilities due to the heavy shielding!

 

There are other ideas too, but that's where I'm stopping today. I guess I'll have to hit up Dark Souls for my melee skill fix for the time being, until things have adjusted some in Warframe. Once again, no dramatic "f this game i've put so many hours into and its a waste", just a shared view of where I am with melee in Warframe at this point in time.

 

Maybe melee only isn't really something they consider to be a play style that should be viable. If that were the case, they probably shouldn't have offered up that idea numerous times throughout it's history of development.

[DellSalami]

Don't see the problem with melee really. Don't rely on pure damage, try for status instead, take the Bo Prime for example. Thing still is amazing.

[S.T.M.P.D]

Word. I believe in a theory called the trimuvirate of murder: that guns, abilites, and meelee should have equal power. But given how many people defend the P42W-BoltorPrimeRhinoStomp method of gameplay, I doubt we'll be seeing fixes anytime soon.

[NaniteCircuit]

I'm pretty much pure melee and a solo-er, and I haven't forma-d ANYTHING at all and can easily survive for up to 30 minutes in T3 Survival with my Skana Prime. (Which isn't that great a weapon anyway.)

Melee in this game is very strategy based. You need to know when to attack, retreat, use powers, how to prioritize targets, and, the most important part, when jumping into a mob of enemies always have an exit strategy for if things go south.

 

Knowing your stance's strengths and weaknesses is also very important.

Edit- My go to frame is Ash. Smoke Screen synchronizes great with Berserker Builds.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Vattira

[Edgedemon]

I'm talking about pure melee mechanics, and the amount of skill it takes to survive without relying on constant abilities to fight even level 40+ enemies. If the game is basically saying I need to rely on powers to be viable, ok, I can understand that. But if I'm relying on powers to be viable, where's the melee fun in that?

those aren't mutually exclusive unless you intentionally make them, Banshee Silence gives a stun arund you that makes entering melee way easier, Saryn can power up her melee damage directly, most people see valkyr only for Hysteria but you can play melee pretty well with war cry only, and then you get the augment mods that give elemental damage to all weapons including melee.

 

If you forma a frame, maybe "melee path" could be an option for focus, where you get innate utility skills such as:

- increased Knockdown Resistance / Recovery

- increased Stamina Max / Regeneration

- decreased Elemental / Status Effect damage

you can already use mods for that.  if you don't want to rely on powers you don't need to focus on power strength, duration or range, and can mod yourself for those stats.

 

Disable my abilities if I go melee only if you want, I don't really use them when I'm in melee anyways, but just give me increased damage reduction so I can at least live long enough to kill a durn level 70 enemy without relying on abilities to get it done. Because if all I'm doing is using abilities, where's the melee fun in that?

same case you are using as counter example you shouldn't see lvl 70+ enemies unless you are in a 1 hour long survival, so there is no need to balance towards that

[fatpig84]

Loki can cheese melee pretty easily (invisibility and disarm + cunning decoy placement makes for easy melee food)

Like wise for Ash. (Smoke screen and teleport, yes teleport helps Ash a lot in melee).

 

Excalibur.. well he used too as well.

Edited December 18, 2014 by fatpig84

[Pie_mastyr]

id like blocking to not drain stamina based on damage, that alone could really help with melee's problems

[Naftal]

I don't really have problem with playing melee only.

 

Melee swings, blocking, front flipping etc. already gives CC immunity. I don't understand why we'd need knockdown resistance or duration reduce. Stamina is basically worthless for other than blocking, which isn't really needed much than for split seconds in certain situations.

[Janzer]

I'm pretty much pure melee and a solo-er, and I haven't forma-d ANYTHING at all and can easily survive for up to 30 minutes in T3 Survival with my Skana Prime. (Which isn't that great a weapon anyway.)

Melee in this game is very strategy based. You need to know when to attack, retreat, use powers, how to prioritize targets, and, the most important part, when jumping into a mob of enemies always have an exit strategy for if things go south.

 

Knowing your stance's strengths and weaknesses is also very important.

 

Skana Prime, the one with the nice Syndicate mod? The thing about comments like these is anyone that makes them, doesn't talk about their actual setup.

 

I can't validate what you're saying based on not know, well anything about what you're doing. What I do is on youtube. People can see my setups. I livestream. People can see me solo melee only without ability usage or a god mode frame.

 

So I won't be responding to these types of comments that haphazardly through out scenarios without any information as to what you're doing to survive.

 

Solo melee players know that O2 is always an issue in survivals. Always. The faster you kill, the better. Trying to simplify the situation with your comment doesn't make it invalidate all of the experience I've had for almost 2 years of playing this game.

 

Link us to a vid, let's see what you're doing, your build, etc. Then we have some grounds for "nullifying" my request.

[SandwitchPrime]

Word. I believe in a theory called the trimuvirate of murder: that guns, abilites, and meelee should have equal power. But given how many people defend the P42W-BoltorPrimeRhinoStomp method of gameplay, I doubt we'll be seeing fixes anytime soon.

if guns abilities and melee have equal power, only one of them will be needed.what's the point of using melee when your guns have the same power?

[Janzer]

those aren't mutually exclusive unless you intentionally make them, Banshee Silence gives a stun arund you that makes entering melee way easier, Saryn can power up her melee damage directly, most people see valkyr only for Hysteria but you can play melee pretty well with war cry only, and then you get the augment mods that give elemental damage to all weapons including melee.

 

you can already use mods for that.  if you don't want to rely on powers you don't need to focus on power strength, duration or range, and can mod yourself for those stats.

 

same case you are using as counter example you shouldn't see lvl 70+ enemies unless you are in a 1 hour long survival, so there is no need to balance towards that

 

It's true, some frames can combo in powers really well with melee, but lack the survivability because they're squishy. Banshee is great for melee because of that stun, especially on a map that has a high ceiling. But she's still going to have the same issues that all other frames will with stamina, bleed procs, overlapping ancient auras.

 

 

I can use mods, absolutely. You're not actually offering a viewpoint that comes from melee only survivors where we have too many mods that we need, but can't use them. Stamina, knockdown, energy (for lifestrike), status effect reduction, and element reduction. Too many cooks.

 

I'm using the example of a level 70 as an exaggeration. I honestly have problems with even level 60. This doesn't invalidate my entire request.

[Janzer]

Loki can cheese melee pretty easily (invisibility and disarm + cunning decoy placement makes for easy melee food)

Like wise for Ash. (Smoke screen and teleport, yes teleport helps Ash a lot in melee).

 

Excalibur.. well he used too as well.

 

Exactly. How great is it of a challenge to be...invisible...the entire time. These are tricks. I want some skill added in. I want the ability to not bleed proc to death because I am going toe to toe with a heavy and getting eaten up by the ranged gun fire. I want to be able to slide away from enemies, not stumble because I have no stamina. I want to be able to get up off the friggin ground like a Tenno, not an old man, after a knockdown from one of many enemies that offer knockdowns now!

if guns abilities and melee have equal power, only one of them will be needed.what's the point of using melee when your guns have the same power?

 

Ask that to DE. They're the ones that gave the idea in our heads that Sword Alone was a play style available. They offered up Melee 2.0. Now we just need some more attention again.

[Hybridon]

Tbh, my biggest grudge is the lack of a better combo timer, you lose it all too quick, making it unviable to reach the next target in time.

 

Along with that, melee bullet blocking is scaled on damage, and not on number of shots, making late game melee harder and unrewarding for all the risk of going up close.

[Janzer]

I don't really have problem with playing melee only.

 

Melee swings, blocking, front flipping etc. already gives CC immunity. I don't understand why we'd need knockdown resistance or duration reduce. Stamina is basically worthless for other than blocking, which isn't really needed much than for split seconds in certain situations.

 

If you don't understand why we need knockdown resist/recovery that isn't in the form of FOUR mods, then you don't play melee only very much. Stamina is essential for quick movement and blocking, and blocking with stamina drain currently isn't viable.

Tbh, my biggest grudge is the lack of a better combo timer, you lose it all too quick, making it unviable to reach the next target in time.

 

Along with that, melee bullet blocking is scaled on damage, and not on number of shots, making late game melee harder and unrewarding for all the risk of going up close.

 

Increasing the combo timer but also increasing the multiplier would really help. And yes, stamina blocking drain is pretty trash and has been for awhile.

[Janzer]

Don't see the problem with melee really. Don't rely on pure damage, try for status instead, take the Bo Prime for example. Thing still is amazing.

 

Ok, you're not offering anything useful here. You're assuming that I'm a rank 1 mastery with no experience in the game? I know how to status mod. It isn't worthwhile having a weapon that can do damage when you're going to get toxin aura killed. It isn't worth it when you have overlapping ancient auras that make infested invulnerable, etc. and so forth.

[Gravalite]

Well. The melee elemental mods are long overdue for a buff, but I've found that the Serro is amazing for status, specially with lasting sting on it. Mod for radiation and toxic and as much status chance you can get.

Only gripe I have really about the melee only gameplay is dealing with grineer door traps and that the parry system is horribly done.

Edit: I'd like to add that the door traps can be taken out when melee only but it is a bit tedious.

Edited December 18, 2014 by -CdG-Grav

[Riot_Inducer]

Loki can cheese melee pretty easily (invisibility and disarm + cunning decoy placement makes for easy melee food)

Like wise for Ash. (Smoke screen and teleport, yes teleport helps Ash a lot in melee).

 

Excalibur.. well he used too as well.

I've started playing Ash more lately and I must say teleport is a massively underrated ability, teleport > parry/finisher with a good melee weapon is devastating to even the toughest heavies.

 

 

id like blocking to not drain stamina based on damage, that alone could really help with melee's problems

Agreed, the stamina drain for trying to block at higher levels will instantly drain your stamina even if you build for it effectively making blocking a useless tactic at high levels where you want to be using blocking *more* to be mitigating the higher damage output of enemies while you close to melee range.

 

More on topic I think melee is overall alright now especially with the inclusion of air melee that makes engaging flying enemies easier and also increases 3 dimensional mobility better overall. But there are certainly a few things that should be improved imo.

 

As mentioned earlier Stamina drain with blocking for one is a major issue preventing melee only being viable at all levels.

 

Channeling also needs some revision imo, channeling builds simply don't work at all with high attack speed weapons

 

The hit multiplier timer is pretty good as is but should really be able to be modded for more time so melee heavy builds can maintain multipliers easier while moving between groups 

[Rakshal]

I'm gonna suggest something radical here. Remove stamina from everything but blocking and then balance how much stamina it takes to block. Stamina seems so pointless for everything else but blocking in my opinion. As for balancing blocking, I think instead of it being damage based it should be how heavy your weapon is. Daggers would use low amounts of stamina while a two-handed sword would use the most amount of stamina, and the sword and shield would use the least amount of stamina.

 

Next DE NEEDS to get rid of stacking auras (this includes both ancients and eximuses). Those staking auras are way to overpowered.

[ensignvidiot]

I do not see any problem with the current melee system.

 

You can use it to supplement your build (i.e. take a decent melee weapon as a support to the rest of your kit).

Or you can create a Sword Alone build on a Frame, and on the weapon.

 

Constitution/Fortitude/Handspring to counter knockdown spam

Deeper Stamina pool to let you stab and block things longer

Deep energy pool for channeling

 

And then you look at the melee weapon and decide between pure damage, elemental damage, channeling damage, speed/crit/range, specialty builds (like around life-strike), or some combination thereof.

 

Like the rest of the game, it takes a bit of modding love to make any particular Sword Alone build/weapon shine (though some are indeed easier than others)

 

Getting a prime version of your favorite gripstyle will help, and there is the option to build for a syndicate weapon... as 1000 AoE Damage with a 100% proc is a rather nice boon to have during melee storms.

 

Taking frames that are more geared towards melee combat can make the whole melee 2.0 system shine so much more.

 

Valkyr/hysteria builds, along with warcry builds.

Loki - Invisibility bonus damage + Moshpits

Ash - Melee combo counter is a great lead in to bladestorm

Rhino - Can take insane amount of punishment, Roar makes melee a lot more deadly

Mirage - same as rhino, when eclipse is utilized to its fullest extent

Excalibur/Banshee - Blind/Silence are deadly openers to melee

Vauban - Magic Vortex + Channeling combos = Game over

Volt - Speed is the fastest killer in the origin system

Saryn - high health, and contagion multiplies damage done

 

And so on.

There are several options already inside the game to allow you to get the most out of stabbing enemies to death. What i have outlined here is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I feel with all of the tools available to us currently, Melee 2.0 and sword alone are very viable and do not need fixing at all.

All they DO need, is more combo branches for Rare Stances.

 

...Im sad Bleeding Willow only has 2

[Naftal]

If you don't understand why we need knockdown resist/recovery that isn't in the form of FOUR mods, then you don't play melee only very much. Stamina is essential for quick movement and blocking, and blocking with stamina drain currently isn't viable.

Eh, did you even read what I said, I gave plenty of options on how to not get knocked down without mods. Melee swings, front flips, blocking, casting abilities etc. make you immune to knockdown.

 

Stamina isn't needed for quick movement because you can start sliding when you have 1 stamina to start the sprint.

[Racercowboy]

With a good melee loadout you can wreck face, it just takes more effort. Although I could see why guns and powers are favored more versus melee, being that they are far, far less restricted. Not only can they reach out and touch things from a safe distance, they can do obscene amounts of damage that most (not all) melee weapons will never see and do it faster. They don't have to worry about timing to achieve combos, some of which are needed to obtain maximum damage. Melee uses up a lot of energy to achieve it's damage potential, while guns can be modded to never run out of ammo. So, why run up to someone and risk taking damage when you can just shoot them from a long distance safely and kill them?

 

In my opinion, it's not so much that melee is to weak, but the other options are too strong. We want three strong options, not two overpowering options and one strong option.

 

On another note, I am utterly shocked that no one has mentioned anything about trinity being a melee friendly frame. She has:

 

-The ability to keep up energy forever via energy vampire for unlimited channeling and not just for herself.

-The ability to ignored a ton of CC with link.

-The ability to shrug of a ton of damage with link and blessing.

 

Trinity can essentially charge in and melee away without regard to anything. I'd certainly put her as one of the top, if not the top, melee frame in the game.

[fatpig84]

Trinity is a strong defensive tank, but defensive tanks scales the worst for melee because melee as a whole is already lacking in damage. 

 

Without extreme damage modifiers like a stealth multiplier, a melee trinity will have issues killing things fast later.

Edited December 19, 2014 by fatpig84

[Janzer]

Eh, did you even read what I said, I gave plenty of options on how to not get knocked down without mods. Melee swings, front flips, blocking, casting abilities etc. make you immune to knockdown.

 

Stamina isn't needed for quick movement because you can start sliding when you have 1 stamina to start the sprint.

 

I absolutely read what you said. As a pretty hardcore melee player I know of attacking while a knockdown is going to occur, which does NOT guarantee knockdown resistance. It's a chance, but it's no guarantee. Blocking also is no guarantee of a knockdown resist at all, and blocking while your in range isn't always an option. Front flipping is fine, when you have the option for it.

 

I brought up the mod cards because it's a fact that we have 4 mod cards to combat knockdown effects. It's a valid point because it's in the game.

 

You're basically trying to negate the point of stamina in the game and it's negative drain by things that are not reliable enough. Stamina is absolutely a problem when you're swinging at enemies in a crowd, if you play in high enough levels with enough spawns, that you won't have any stamina at all after attacking to flit away with all the time.

 

Melee only play style need more development attention. That's all I'm asking, and you're trying to negate that?

 

I'm not resting my case on a few melee runs. I have run melee only on my Volt, for more than a year. Not exclusively, but I'm pretty much known for doing this by anyone that has seen my gameplay. Why Volt? Because he's a good test frame to work with. He has high shields, high energy pool, and is malleable to what you want to build for.

 

My opinion isn't the end all and be all, but my I'm sharing my experience based on many months/hours.

 

I respect that you feel melee doesn't need any more work. Based on this thread, if I did base my information on a few people that bother with it, it appears that no one has any issue with melee right now.

 

But that still doesn't invalidate all of the hours I've spent testing melee with different frames and just about all melee weapons. Melee is what I do. And right now, based on all the updates added in to combat abilities spammers, melee is suffering due to enemy power creep.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

id like blocking to not drain stamina based on damage, that alone could really help with melee's problems

That's badly needed.

 

 

I absolutely read what you said. As a pretty hardcore melee player I know of attacking while a knockdown is going to occur, which does NOT guarantee knockdown resistance. It's a chance, but it's no guarantee. Blocking also is no guarantee of a knockdown resist at all, and blocking while your in range isn't always an option. Front flipping is fine, when you have the option for it.

 

I brought up the mod cards because it's a fact that we have 4 mod cards to combat knockdown effects. It's a valid point because it's in the game.

 

You're basically trying to negate the point of stamina in the game and it's negative drain by things that are not reliable enough. Stamina is absolutely a problem when you're swinging at enemies in a crowd, if you play in high enough levels with enough spawns, that you won't have any stamina at all after attacking to flit away with all the time.

 

Melee only play style need more development attention. That's all I'm asking, and you're trying to negate that?

 

I'm not resting my case on a few melee runs. I have run melee only on my Volt, for more than a year. Not exclusively, but I'm pretty much known for doing this by anyone that has seen my gameplay. Why Volt? Because he's a good test frame to work with. He has high shields, high energy pool, and is malleable to what you want to build for.

 

My opinion isn't the end all and be all, but my I'm sharing my experience based on many months/hours.

 

I respect that you feel melee doesn't need any more work. Based on this thread, if I did base my information on a few people that bother with it, it appears that no one has any issue with melee right now.

 

But that still doesn't invalidate all of the hours I've spent testing melee with different frames and just about all melee weapons. Melee is what I do. And right now, based on all the updates added in to combat abilities spammers, melee is suffering due to enemy power creep.

I'm really starting to want the DE team to join us on these games so they can see the effect of their weaponry and how their melee system actually works.

Edited December 19, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Janzer]

I do not see any problem with the current melee system.

 

You can use it to supplement your build (i.e. take a decent melee weapon as a support to the rest of your kit).

Or you can create a Sword Alone build on a Frame, and on the weapon.

 

Constitution/Fortitude/Handspring to counter knockdown spam

Deeper Stamina pool to let you stab and block things longer

Deep energy pool for channeling

 

And then you look at the melee weapon and decide between pure damage, elemental damage, channeling damage, speed/crit/range, specialty builds (like around life-strike), or some combination thereof.

 

Like the rest of the game, it takes a bit of modding love to make any particular Sword Alone build/weapon shine (though some are indeed easier than others)

 

Getting a prime version of your favorite gripstyle will help, and there is the option to build for a syndicate weapon... as 1000 AoE Damage with a 100% proc is a rather nice boon to have during melee storms.

 

Taking frames that are more geared towards melee combat can make the whole melee 2.0 system shine so much more.

 

Valkyr/hysteria builds, along with warcry builds.

Loki - Invisibility bonus damage + Moshpits

Ash - Melee combo counter is a great lead in to bladestorm

Rhino - Can take insane amount of punishment, Roar makes melee a lot more deadly

Mirage - same as rhino, when eclipse is utilized to its fullest extent

Excalibur/Banshee - Blind/Silence are deadly openers to melee

Vauban - Magic Vortex + Channeling combos = Game over

Volt - Speed is the fastest killer in the origin system

Saryn - high health, and contagion multiplies damage done

 

And so on.

There are several options already inside the game to allow you to get the most out of stabbing enemies to death. What i have outlined here is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I feel with all of the tools available to us currently, Melee 2.0 and sword alone are very viable and do not need fixing at all.

All they DO need, is more combo branches for Rare Stances.

 

...Im sad Bleeding Willow only has 2

 

This is good information for people that don't melee to know. Thanks for posting it for people that aren't familiar with melee very much, in case they come across this post.