Synoid Gammacor Does Not Need Changes, It Is Already Balanced

[Vargras]

Well, since you dont see a problem with your argument, I have nothing more to say.

I do find it insightful though to see how some people will stick to an argument just because they feel they are right.

 

DE devs should consider a balance overhaul, including broken frame abilities, weapons balance, enemies balance etc.

There are dozens of weapons similar to the sgammacor and even more powerful. DPS values dont matter.

Your argument was "Molecular Prime makes everything take more damage so why not nerf all guns?"

 

Apples and oranges. I mentioned an ability because it shores up a weakness, I.E. the Gammacor's range. You mentioned an ability in a completely different situation, that of improving a weapon's strengths. Different situations.

 

Come on people the game evolves and stop asking for nerfs. Why does it really matter to you that this gun is better than others? Why do you guys take other people using something for you guys to hate on it. I like the grammacor, not because of the damage, but because it is a cool looking weapon and really looks nice on a lot of warframes. The fact that it actually is good is one reason it is on my higher tier loadouts. You want this nerfed, because it seems to ruin your version of fun. Sure it is easy to get if you have the platinum, but not every player in the game is made of the stuff. For a new player to actually get this gun they need to play for at least a month and rank up a few times.

Because it's boring when one weapon trumps all others so easily. Players have seriously quit this game because they picked up a strong weapon (formerly Boltor Prime, now this), used it for a bit, and then went "Now what?". Why bother using anything else when you've already had the best there is?

 

The timesink you mentioned is irrelevant, given that you can simply trade for the syndicate weapons. A player can hit MR2, spend a bit of platinum, and get the gun for themselves, with no time spent actually earning rep.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Vargras

[ZoneDymo]

1. Dont attack me as a player personally. I dont even know what you mean by "people like me", nor do i care to.

2. I DONT use it, I prefer the Vaykor Marelok as i find Health-Tanking to be more effective

3. You are STILL not factoring the TIME IT TAKES to get this weapon!

 

Its for ENDGAME PLAYERS, or people who bought a TON of plat and want to buy it straight on the market. And if you DONT have deep pockets you need MS 3, and to then proceed to farm 372000 points of affinity from nothing.

 

Unless you are already above MS 15, and can quickly gain access to high-tier daily missions, this is shoving a HUGE grind gate in your face for a powerful weapon.

 

 

Take the Dragon Nikana for instance, which boasts one of the highest single-strike channeling DPS in the game.

You need to be MS 4 to gain the base Nikana, get invited into a clan with it, grind argon

Then level up to MS 8 to gain access to the blue print for the Dragon, and grind some more argon.

 

You cant say things that are locked behind progress barriers as being too overpowered. The hell was the point of climbing the mountain if its just a useless piece of gear up top?

 

Sorry for the confusion but just because I was the next person inline to reply to this topic (behind you) does not mean It was addressed to you.

If it was then I would have quoted your message first, mine was a response to the creator of the topic.

 

ill reply to what you say anyway though,

One big thing you need to realize is that this "endgame" does not live in a vacuum.

I said it many times, if this is truly a purely endgame weapon, then restrain it to the endgame.

 

99.9% of this game is not this endgame stuff you are talking about, alerts and invasions are not in this endgame category yet they are there for all to do.

Taking something like the SG to them is a complete and utter joke.

Also like I mentioned, Vor appearing on Tier 4 whatever dies in literally 2 seconds, before his speech is over from the SG.

And that is pretty much as endgame as it gets.

 

Also, you are making huge jumps, there is a TON of space between overpowered and useless.

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Your argument was "Molecular Prime makes everything take more damage so why not nerf all guns?"

 

Apples and oranges. I mentioned an ability because it shores up a weakness, I.E. the Gammacor's range. You mentioned an ability in a completely different situation, that of improving a weapon's strengths. Different situations.

 

Because it's boring when one weapon trumps all others so easily. Players have seriously quit this game because they picked up a strong weapon (formerly Boltor Prime, now this), used it for a bit, and then went "Now what?". Why bother using anything else when you've already had the best there is?

 

The timesink you mentioned is irrelevant, given that you can simply trade for the syndicate weapons. A player can hit MR2, spend a bit of platinum, and get the gun for themselves, with no time spent actually earning rep.

Right then. Keep arguing.

[ZoneDymo]

Guys I just really don't like it when my partners spam 4 and kill everything. Guys I just really don't like it when my partners hold down mouse and kill people. Guys I just really don't like my partners getting any kills that I don't. Guys I just really want this game to focus on me and nerf everything I say needs to be nerfed. Guys I just really want a challenge without playing solo. Guys I just really refuse to play on higher level nodes where these OP things are useless. Guys I just really want this nerfed before raids come out and everything is to hard. Guys I just really hate when my precious OP gun from a year ago is suddenly useless compared to something else. Guys guys guys guys all I really know how to do is complain.

 

Come on people the game evolves and stop asking for nerfs. Why does it really matter to you that this gun is better than others? Why do you guys take other people using something for you guys to hate on it. I like the grammacor, not because of the damage, but because it is a cool looking weapon and really looks nice on a lot of warframes. The fact that it actually is good is one reason it is on my higher tier loadouts. You want this nerfed, because it seems to ruin your version of fun. Sure it is easy to get if you have the platinum, but not every player in the game is made of the stuff. For a new player to actually get this gun they need to play for at least a month and rank up a few times.

 

We will just glance over that useless ignorant first part and move on to the second.

The game evolves... yeah evolves means change, nerfing is changing soooooo yeah what?

 

Why does it matter that this gun is better than others has to be addressed in 2 ways.

Nr1. I feel every gun should be able to be modded to a more or less equal end level, if you cannot then why keep those weapons in?

Its sad as hell imo that the Lato is not a viable weapon to use fairly quickly, I think mods should scale higher for low tier weapons so that in the end all weapons are more or less on equal footing.

This will promote variety for vets (instead of all having Soma/Boltor Prime + SG) and it will keep weapons from being redundant and thus being wasted.

Nr2. Its not that its better, its that it is ungodly game breaking, nothing lasts more then a second against it unless you take that 0.001% of the game that is 50 minutes of Tier 4 survival in the void.

How can that ever be the point of the game, and if it is, why are their not much more weapons like it, like for example the other Syndicate weapons.

 

The time it takes one to get it is hardly a valid argument, would you be ok with a weapon that will win you the match whatever it is the second it starts as long as it takes someone about a year to get it?  because let me tell you, if you are, as soon as people have it, this game is not a game anymore.

 

Why do we like warframe? im sure you actually want to fight enemies right? not just point at them for a second and you are done with it.

[Twilight053]

The only reason I disagree with this is that how this weapon outclasses bows, the supposed 1v1 weapon.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Twilight053

[--MZez--]

gammacor is good dont touch it

[(PSN)TheArrowOfGod]

What is wrong with your brain? Why are you asking for a NERF? Why are you complaing about something that tips the scales in YOUR favor?

[Davoodoo]

Everytime is see such thread im reassured of 1 thing, that mentioned item is truly op.

 

Without even reading post i can say that this is another attempt to justify high output with drawbacks.

 

In this case op will probably try to justify gammacor dps with the fact that range is low.

But 25m is more than range most encounters in game take place, heavy gunners become accurate at around 20m, fusion moas cant hit anything further than 5m, lancers dont toss grenades past 20m.

 

Even if we indeed agree that range is low(it isnt) then shotguns have dmg falloff which start at lower range yet they arent given huge dps due to fact that they are close ranged.

 

1 drawback aint enough to justify x2 dps.

[Ordel]

Seems this thread is devolving into a flame war quite quickly. Here's my .02.

 

The SGamma has high damage. That's nothing new.

Short range (although relatively high for lasers), VERY ammo efficient, base magnetic dmg. Blah blah statistics.

 

What makes this weapon reign supreme is two main points.

1) Its' damage is overcompensated. It has a short range, yeah. Its damage should be proportional. This thing destroys anything it comes across.

2) Its' ammo efficiency is above where it should be IMO.

 

Now, I've been toying with this thing for like, a week. Lv. 30, potato'd, no formae on it. It doesn't even need it.

Lv. 70 void enemies. Destroyed. Only exception being the gunner which takes around 4-5 seconds for me to kill since I run the SG with a radiation build.

Most of the tiles (ceres being an exception, the only one that comes to mind, earth I guess counts aswell) are very close-quartered. These tiles were built around navigational complexity, not for open space. That contributes to the reason why snipers aren't favored, aswell. But that's for another thread.

That means that the SG's range is of little concern. That's bad. The TTK for this thing is off the charts. Now I understand that it's a single-target laser beam weapon. The TTK for it SHOULD be quick and simple. And I would be okay with this, if it were limited by ammo. This thing loses, like, 1 unit per second AT LEAST. Lasers shouldn't be both high in damage and high in efficiency. It's one or the other, or you could bring in a third limiting factor.

 

Warframe has this continual "make 100 weapons, but if you want to not die use these 10" motif in its' weapon designs. The SG is the newest addition.

 

I firmly believe that no weapon is OP; rather, some weapons are left unchecked in their benefits. (thank you based notionphil)

Edited February 24, 2015 by Ordel

[Vargras]

Right then. Keep arguing.

No rebuttal? No refuting what I said?

 

Hardly surprising. Shows you didn't have much to stand on.

[HandsomeSorcerer]

No rebuttal? No refuting what I said?

 

Hardly surprising. Shows you didn't have much to stand on.

Scathing...

[HibikiGanaha]

It's really not that short, though. Not only that, but as mentioned before, Volt's Electric Shield completely removes any range limitations on it.

 

You say the range is the gun's weakness, and thus what keeps it balanced, and yet that limitation can be completely removed. It's no longer balanced, it's broken (and it's what the Spectra and Flux Rifle wish they could be like).

Volt's shield adding a buff to guns does not mean the gun needs a nerf.  Frame abilities shouldn't factor into a gun change.  Banshee already gives 14.2x damage bonus to guns, this doesn't mean guns should be balanced around banshee.

 

 

OP, the "limited" range of 25m is the only thing stopping the Synoid Gammacor from being more unbalanced than it already is.  It deals tremendous damage even unforma'd (the basic non-syndicate Gammacor was already pretty lethal before this was released!) and 25m is more than enough in most ssituations.  Bear in mind that the Gammacor is not supposed to be a long range sniper type weapon and the range limitation fits with the other laser/electric guns in the game.

 

Please consider that in comparison to any similar weapon (Flux Rifle, Synapse, Amprex, Spectra etc), it gets the benefit of being at the top of its range class whilst also dealing the highest damage by a massive margin.  Poor old Flux Rifle by comparison can match the 25m but essentially deals half the damage and has poorer ammo efficiency. 

 

Personally, I'm all for either a nerf of the Synoid Gammor to at least bring it closer to other top end weapons (rather than surpassing them by such a wide margin) OR the other syndicate weapons should received buffs to make them a bit more comparable. 

25m isn't really that far, and I disagree that it is more than enough in most situations.  In the screenshots from kiste, you can't shoot anyone on the bridge below.  When they get up the stairs, they are already shooting at you.  At the other terminal, if you try to defend against the enemies that zipline towards you, they start shooting you before the gammacor can reach them to do damage.  Even void defense has the long hallway that enemies march down, that has to be at least 70m from the pod to the door.  Most defense tiles have >25m line of sight with the enemy; the only tile I can think of that doesn't have this is the Eris defense tile.  I wouldn't even take it to T4E if Saryn miasma/Excal jav didn't stun bombards.

 

I agree, the gun does massive, single target damage, but only while in range of the enemy.  The amprex can out-damage the gammacor since it's an aoe weapon.

 

I disagree with a nerf to range or damage.  Range nerf would make it feel clunkier and if you reduced the damage, there wouldn't be a reason to take anything other than the marelok (hitscan and long range).

[Ordel]

-snip-

 

I disagree with a nerf to range or damage.  Range nerf would make it feel clunkier and if you reduced the damage, there wouldn't be a reason to take anything other than the marelok (hitscan and long range).

 

Noone ever said we had to reduce the damage so harshly that it falls below the level of other weapons. It just needs its' own playstyle to vary it from the other weapons. The gammacor's should-be playstyle is get up close and dish out damage. Its' issue right now is that it dishes out too much damage at once. If you really needed to keep the damage, you'd need to lower some other aspect of the weapon ie. its' range.

 

Along with that, clunky is a relative term.

[Anatolius]

I do believe that the Synoid Gammocor is rather overpowered

Even with its limited range (extended by mods) the damage output is so strong that I wholeheartedly believe that even in enemy accuracy fire, you will kill them long before they do enough damage to you.

 

I considered it very strong when I could constantly solo T4 survival for up to 40+ minutes with a max number of oxygen pods (this is considering I find a good room and I kill things fast enough to keep up my supply). This was the only weapon I had besides a melee to copter (not sentinals/kubrows).

 

I seriously think it needs an ammo efficiency re balance. I have never used a whole clip. Its too good

 

What is wrong with your brain? Why are you asking for a NERF? Why are you complaing about something that tips the scales in YOUR favor?

Because it gives you (not you directly, people in general) an unrealistic expectation of what weapons should be and when it does not reach that standard you are limited to only a small handful of weapons that are only somewhat close to your new expectation. Which then the enemy difficulty would have to be shifted to compensate for the damage output.

 

So its not the fact its one weapon, its the fact that it changes the perspective of the game and gives all weapons a standard to be reached, one that is too high and inappropriate for this game. Balance allows for players to have a challenge and equal ground while playing. As much as we all (even me) would love to do something easily, easy isnt always fun, when something itsnt fun it becomes tedious .

[taiiat]

all there is to say, is that like a couple other Outlier Weapons - it lacks any weaknesses that actually feel like weaknesses.

the limited Range doesn't matter ~90% of the time, and that's the only thing that's even close to a weakness that it has.

[(PSN)TheArrowOfGod]

I do believe that the Synoid Gammocor is rather overpowered

Even with its limited range (extended by mods) the damage output is so strong that I wholeheartedly believe that even in enemy accuracy fire, you will kill them long before they do enough damage to you.

 

I considered it very strong when I could constantly solo T4 survival for up to 40+ minutes with a max number of oxygen pods (this is considering I find a good room and I kill things fast enough to keep up my supply). This was the only weapon I had besides a melee to copter (not sentinals/kubrows).

 

I seriously think it needs an ammo efficiency re balance. I have never used a whole clip. Its too good

 

Because it gives you (not you directly, people in general) an unrealistic expectation of what weapons should be and when it does not reach that standard you are limited to only a small handful of weapons that are only somewhat close to your new expectation. Which then the enemy difficulty would have to be shifted to compensate for the damage output.

 

So its not the fact its one weapon, its the fact that it changes the perspective of the game and gives all weapons a standard to be reached, one that is too high and inappropriate for this game. Balance allows for players to have a challenge and equal ground while playing. As much as we all (even me) would love to do something easily, easy isnt always fun, when something itsnt fun it becomes tedious .

The Synoid is the only side arm I've ever used over my primary. Any others i only use when I go down. Its about time a side arm can actualy hold it's own. What side arm would you use only in a t4 survival?

[HibikiGanaha]

Everytime is see such thread im reassured of 1 thing, that mentioned item is truly op.

 

Without even reading post i can say that this is another attempt to justify high output with drawbacks.

 

In this case op will probably try to justify gammacor dps with the fact that range is low.

But 25m is more than range most encounters in game take place, heavy gunners become accurate at around 20m, fusion moas cant hit anything further than 5m, lancers dont toss grenades past 20m.

 

Even if we indeed agree that range is low(it isnt) then shotguns have dmg falloff which start at lower range yet they arent given huge dps due to fact that they are close ranged.

 

1 drawback aint enough to justify x2 dps.

You are forgetting scorcher ospreys, railgun moas, anti-moas, detron crewman, bombards, napalms, and eviscerators just to name a few.  If you have the numbers on all of those I would be interested in seeing them.

[Ordel]

The Synoid is the only side arm I've ever used over my primary. Any others i only use when I go down. Its about time a side arm can actualy hold it's own. What side arm would you use only in a t4 survival?

HikouP.

Despair.

Angstrum, but if we're talking about survivability here, nevermind that thought.

Wraith vipes, my babies.

Marelok, any variant.

[Vargras]

The Synoid is the only side arm I've ever used over my primary. Any others i only use when I go down. Its about time a side arm can actualy hold it's own. What side arm would you use only in a t4 survival?

Hikou Prime, Telos AkBolto, and Pyrana, to name a few. AkJagara and AkMagnus are also fun to use.

[Davoodoo]

What is wrong with your brain? Why are you asking for a NERF? Why are you complaing about something that tips the scales in YOUR favor?

Ill tell whats wrong with that thinking, im not sure if you are aware how wow looks like now, its complete balancing nightmare.

 

Warriors basically murder every other melee on aoe, single and cleave fights.

From rangeds we have 2 classes, hunter and druid, both have amazing aoe dmg with decent single target and somewhat okayish cleave.

 

Whats the problem here?? well, ill tell you, 6 out of 10 encounters require good aoe, 2 out of 10 are cleave and only 2 are single target.

Melee is outclasses by rangeds on every fight that doesnt involve cleave, which is 8 out 10 due to ranged simply having comparable aoe and single target dps without having to worry about many of things that melee need to and without losing dps on high mobility phases.

 

Imbalance is so severe that best dps setup is few hunters and balance druids and there are actually guilds which run this setup and faceroll through content which is near impossible for others due to having worse setup.

 

2 classes being exceptionally good made 9 others unviable, to the point where they arent even considered worth taking into raid and that made thousands of ppl reroll their class or quit the game.

 

Thats how big of a deal can balance be, you may see it wont happen in warframe since we dont need to achieve certain standards to enter specific tier of gameplay, but when raids gonna hit live ill assure you that everyone without boltor and synoid will have a hard time finding group.

 

My brain is just fine, so probably is yours, so just try to use it and think about more than yourself and that specific moment.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Vargras]

Ill tell whats wrong with that thinking, im not sure if you are aware how wow looks like now, its complete balancing nightmare.

 

Warriors basically murder every other melee on aoe, single and cleave fights.

From rangeds we have 2 classes, hunter and druid, both have amazing aoe dmg with decent single target and somewhat okayish cleave.

Are you talking about a different game, or what? 'Cause the game you described isn't anything like that.

[HibikiGanaha]

Noone ever said we had to reduce the damage so harshly that it falls below the level of other weapons. It just needs its' own playstyle to vary it from the other weapons. The gammacor's should-be playstyle is get up close and dish out damage. Its' issue right now is that it dishes out too much damage at once. If you really needed to keep the damage, you'd need to lower some other aspect of the weapon ie. its' range.

 

Along with that, clunky is a relative term.

It does 399 sustained and the vaykor marelok does 239.  Seems like a good trade-off for long range in my opinion.  You don't have to take damage from an enemy to do your damage.  If you drop that number any further, marelok becomes the best weapon, no other choice to be made.

[Katinka]

A player can hit MR2, spend a bit of platinum, and get the gun for themselves, with no time spent actually earning rep.

 

The Wiki says it's Mastery Rank 6.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

I use it with ruinious extension and seeker, it's perfectly balanced that way IMO.

[tcooc]

You only stated the downsides of the weapon; you didn't tell us why it was balanced compared to other weapons. Especially weapons that also have limited range.