Jump to content


PC Member
  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by YagoXiten

  1. 14 hours ago, (PS4)Radehx said:

    Mag can dish out insane damage with the right setup, has effective overshields. She's totally viable for high-level stuff. 

    I'm not against buffs, but if you think she's ineffective at high level stuff, you are playing her wrong.

    Overshields are pretty mediocre.

    She's ineffective at higher levels without equipping specific weapons. Wanting to use something other than a Lanka doesn't mean I'm playing her wrong.

  2. 22 minutes ago, sixmille said:

    Mag is extremely durable. It's probably among the most durable warframes! You can get as much overshield as you'd like, as long as you're not constantly taking 2k hits standing still you'll be fine. I've never ever ran into energy issues with Mag either. Maybe my build is exceptional, or maybe fleeting expertise is doing its job.

    Magnetize doesn't need to scale, that would set a bad precedent. Mag's effective dps is scaling though, with enemy armor and shields. That's the trick. You can completely remove any armor from any high level grineer, and this is huge. The only thing I kind of agree with is that magnetize is a bit messy and it should be less penalizing to use on groups, but that's about it.

    There are 35 Warframes. 20 of them are objectively more durable than Mag: Atlas, Chroma, Equinox, Frost, Gara, Harrow, Hydroid, Inaros, Khora, Mesa, Nekros, Nezha, Nidus, Oberon, Rhino, Saryn, Trinity, Valkyr, Wukong, and Zephyr. Of those who are not obviously above Mag: Ash, Ivara, Loki, and Octavia have reliable invisibility. Limbo has the Rift. This leaves Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Titania, Vauban, and Volt. Whilst there is some room for debate I would place Mag above only Banshee, Ember, Mirage, Titania, and Vauban. Regardless of her exact position, she is somewhere in the bottom third.

    A level 100 Heavy Gunner has 7332 armor. Mag with 100% Ability Strength requires 19 casts of Polarize to remove their armor. If Mag also has Corrosive Projection, she will have to cast Polarize 13 times to remove their armor. If Mag also has Fracturing Crush, she will have to cast Crush 4 times and Polarize once to completely remove their armor. Mag with 200% Ability Strength requires 10 casts of Polarize to remove their armor. If Mag also has Corrosive Projection, she will have to cast Polarize 7 times to remove their armor. If Mag also has Fracturing Crush, she will have to cast Crush once and Polarize 2 times to remove their armor.

  3. 2 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

    i use max range and efficiency on my mag build.. the bubbles get up to DOTs of 5k with just a second of firing Mara Detron or Lanka or Supra Vandal, then explodes for 100k+ in a huge area when it eventually expires.. the bubble is big enough you can stand in it to immunize yourself to damage, the energy costs overall are low enough you can use crush to stun enemies that are hitting you long enough to cast Magnatize while also giving you tons of over shields. I can use this in extremely high content because i can almost totally remove any ability of enemies to hit me, so i dont even bother with defense mods. i often sit in the bubble and spam pull after all the mobs inside it initally are dead.

    this is one of 3 builds i have.

    i also have a Anti boss build that is more duration and Power Str, again focusing on Magnatize. the Damage bonus is huge and i can one shot the Raptor in Sorites. this one has Redirection and Vitality.

    the last build is a higher power, Medium range (no overextended) build that focuses on Using crush and Polarize as a Nuke Combo... basically this is a Hydron Spam style build.


    i have noticed that you dont really need much duration to make her effective... in fact faster Magnatize bubbles allow for quick creation of Bubble nuking. ideally you want around 90% or so because Polarize is then at least as big as Crush and Magnatize lasts long enough to really killing anything in its borders. building for max duration on her is utterly pointless.


    People think she has only recently gotten good, but even before her last update i was loving my newly obtained Mag Prime and had been loving my non Potatoed Hydron build with normal Mag...



    In short... she is one of the LEAST in need of any kind of rework... in fact she is kind of OP when used right.

    ok look my point is not that i wouldnt love some more buffs to mag, honestly i have my own ideas.. but i think she is one of the most awesome frames in this game when played right and would rather see that attention focused on Wukong or Vauban, or another frame that cannot at all get to that point... Even Atlas has a really good build that can be used to fly around nuking the map while invulnerable, healing and buffing his armor in the process..


    1 hour ago, Anthraxicus said:

    My only problem with Mag is how the limited range of weapons that work with Magnetize aren't actually working as intended. Weapons that should be shredding enemies to pieces are hitting only once and the rest of the potential damage is completely wasted.

    Magnetize is currently an incredibly complicated ability. Because whilst the absorption works, more or less, like I edited into the OP, it also builds adds damage to the explosion based upon how long enemies sit in it and how many enemies do so. This is part of the reason that the high range and high duration build is so popular, and why people are telling me that she scales fine. Yes, she's reaching millions of damage because you either A. Use a meta weapon which charges it to absurd numbers very quickly or B. Gather a dozen enemies and have them sit in the bubble for days which charges it to absurd numbers. It's not that I'm not aware of this. It's that I'd like some consistency and reward for using other weapons and for moving through missions at a faster pace.

    It's counter-intuitive that she forces you to sit and baby sit each Magnetize bubble when Warframe is such a fast paced game. From the ability's description, etc., it seems like it should work similar to Nyx's Absorb or Equinox's Maim. Do a bunch of damage to a few enemies really quick, then blow it up to kill everything else and move on. But that is not what it does. Instead, it reaches astronomically high values if you sit there...not killing things? There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want to do. I don't seek to change that. It's fun sometimes. But I think there's a lot to be gained from having the ability charge without being forced to not kill enemies or use a meta weapon. There are plenty of Warframes that can gather, debuff, and nuke enemies easier and with less prep time. She's forced to be a one trick pony reliant upon specific weapons.

    I'm also all to aware of the fact that Mag's Magnetize has changed its physics and damage calculations under the hood at least a handful of times now. I'd really like her to be tweaked so that her damage can remain consistent and predictable from here on out instead of this mess which is prone to breaking something every other patch.

  4. 3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

    Saying trim isn't supposed to be a dps frame is like saying nova shouldn't be a tank frame or rhino shouldn't be used for stealth or that Octavia shouldn't fill every role.  It is nonsensical arbitrary b.s..  The developers taking away a viable technique in whole represents a clear message from de: never experiment or invest because as soon as you succeed we will take it away and male or worthless, only play exactly as we want you to play, so shut up, give is your money and gtfo. That's the problem I have with this.  It's not about the loss of investment, all investments are risky, but to have the entire thing kaboshed entirely especially when there are lots of solutions on the table that aren't that, it sends a clear message of f the vets who take time to experiment and be creative. It's a problematic cancer and it's not limited to trinity, the same thing was done to Loki and others.  DE simply does not care, they are thoughtless, careless, and don't give a crap about players who invest heavily in their game and that's a very clear message being sent.  That's the problem.  I personally expected a nerf, and suggested several viable solutions, all of which were subsequently ignored in favor of screwing everyone that bothered to play with this very interestingly modded build.   For that I believe DE expects and rightly deserves all the salt they get for it.

    I don't know. I've never had DE take away any of the builds or fun things I've found to do. Probably because they aren't reproducible with a macro and don't trivialize content that DE clearly intended to be a challenge.

  5. On 2018-06-06 at 2:45 PM, NezuHimeSama said:

    Bullets being able to proc isn't exactly a suitable solution to enemies not receiving any meaningful damage. The issue is that the edge of the damagesphere provides protection and deals minimal damage. The obvious solution is to reduce the protection area to alleviate this, ensuring that any protected enemies are receiving substantial enough damage from the ability it's self. Alternatively, it could just be a large bubble that mirrors any damage that contacts it to enemies in the sphere without altering projectile paths, but I think DE doesn't want to throw away all the work they put into the eyecandy of the ability.

    You can always recast the ability after it detonates, but since that would be the augment, you could just continue to use the ability as normal. The explosion area is actually larger than the bubble area atm, and if we're only talking about enemies not being present in the core(protected area) then it still deals with the surrounding enemies just fine. Want it to also kill another group? Well, it's a 50base energy ability with a base casting speed of around a second. Cast another, pump it full of damage, and watch it burst like a firecracker.


    You mentioned a 15m radius. Mag's pull currently has a range of 25m base. At rank 0, it has a range of 15m base. Having that kind of range is important, since the largest threats are enemies far away from mag. Having it pull to where you point is fine(I also liked someone's previously suggested idea of having a stronger fling by holding the button down for a half second charge) but the 15m range and 5m pull just isn't really helping mag. This ability needs to stop movement of enemies within a large area in front of mag because she squish.

    Magnetic is actually better than people give it credit for. It's one of the worst procs in the game when used against enemies to be sure, but it's not completely useless, and just 100% eliminating corpus shields makes an entire sortie condition completely irrelevant, something Shield Polarize previously did, and it was nerfed into the ground because of it. A: It's OP AF, even if it's only OP AF against a single (most of a) faction, B: I don't think DE wants to make enemy shields even more irrelevant, and C, toxin shouldn't be bypassing shields. It's a nifty but ultimately imbalanced mechanic that, while I love it and abuse the S#&$ out of it, should be removed/replaced/reworked. 

    Trinity and Harrow are not Mag, Zenurik and energy restores don't bypass channeling gimpery or synergize with Arcane Energize, and 75% energy base is only 18.75 energy on an efficiency build. There's no good reason to make Mag spawn energy orbs for the party so easily. If anything, enemies killed by Crush should have a additional 1/10(or less) chance to drop an energy orb, to be more in line with Broberon's smite, but even that would probably be abused AF and get nerfed in a day.

    Stripping all armour in one go would make armour stripping builds irrelevant, and if it doesn't, suddenly stagger is S#&$e. Never mind mixed factions. Keep it on the augment where it belongs. I believe the shortest stagger is about a second long, actually. And, % of base armour has problems with inconsistent armour stripping that would make the stagger a problem as well, and stripping all armour in one go is OP.

    I don't see how puncture is any more thematic than cold, but tbqh, both would be dumb theme wise. What we really need is a rework of magnetic procs to make them make sense to use on enemies that aren't already-squishy corpus.

    Right, so I should probably explain what I mean by 'properly absorbs damage from all weapons'.

    From what I can tell Magnetize currently only tracks damage instances that actually hit an enemy within it. Shooting the sphere with no enemies inside does not add damage. Shooting at the sphere whilst enemies are inside it, but not in the center, will not add damage unless they collide with a shot left trapped in the field. If a single shot manages to strike enemies multiple times it will add damage to Magnetize multiple times. If an enemy is attacked with a weapon which has multishot and the target dies to the first pellet, then subsequent pellets will not add damage as the target died before they hit.

    All of this together means that the properties of Mag's weapons and the health of Mag's target affect the damage dealt by Magnetize in an absurd manner.

    Two weapons which have the same DPS and time to kill can add dramatically different values to Magnetize. This is particularly significant when you compare high rate of fire but low damage weaponry, such assault rifles, and high damage but low rate of fire weapons such as snipers. They may both kill a target in a single shot, but only the sniper will contribute significantly to the damage absorbed by Magnetize. Status weapons are affected by this even more, as not only are they typically high rate of fire but low damage weapons, they also tend to rely upon the Corrosive status which does not actually deal damage.

    I want to fix this.

    Ideally by making it so that Magnetize tracks the damage type and damage dealt to the sphere itself, rather than the raw damage dealt to enemies inside of the sphere. This would still allow projectile weapons to damage enemies multiple times. It would not, however, allow a single Lanka shot to increase Magnetize's damage for every time it hits an enemy. This is not a nerf, though it may seem like it at first glance, because the damage type dealt by Magnetize's damage over time will be able to ignore 75% of a target's alloy armor with Radiation damage or 75% of a target's ferrite armor with Corrosive damage, on top of the expected 1.75x damage increase in both cases.

    I'll be adding this to the OP.

    In addition, I have added an explanation for why I 'reduced' the radius to 15m to the OP. I also buffed the pull distance--it was so low was due to me being unable to properly account for things like momentum and the specifics of Warframe's physics engine. The intention was always to have it pull targets somewhere around 3/4 of the way to the targeted point. That should be more clear now.


    As far as the Magnetic status goes:

    A level 1 Detron Crewman has 150 shields and 60 health. A ratio of 2.5 shields : 1 health.

    A level 100 Detron Crewman has 11,176 shields and 8880 health. A ratio of 1.25 shields: 1 health.

    It stays at that ratio after that, I believe. At any rate, this actually makes the Magnetic status worse at higher levels than you might think! Toxin damage has ignored shields for more than five years, and I don't think that will ever change. Furthermore, Polarize was not nerfed because it removed enemies' entire shields. It was nerfed because, in addition to doing that, it also did that much damage in a massive area around it for each target hit. It allowed you to, more or less, instantly kill all Corpus or Corrupted enemies of any level in a massive area.

    I don't think it's a problem for Mag to have access to some energy restoration. The probability of Mag generating an Energy Orb in 4 casts is only 68.4%. There's still a 31.6% chance she spawns no Energy Orbs after spending 300 Energy. Even if you increase her Strength to 200% and have 175% Efficiency, she still has a 25% chance to drop zero Energy Orbs in 2 casts. The only time this is actually a net gain of Energy for Mag is if you're running one or multiple Arcane Energize(s) and a very specific build designed to generate said orbs. Sure, it works through channeled abilities, but there are other frames such as Atlas, Hydroid, Ivara, and Nekros that can increase the chance that enemies drop Energy Orbs in a much more effective manner. This is an extremely minor thing. Oberon's Reckoning generating Health Orbs upon killing an enemy is an entirely pointless feature, outside of the lowest level missions where Health and Energy management is not a concern. It's highly unlikely that Reckoning will deal the killing blow, and even if it does, it is only a 50% chance.

    On 2018-06-07 at 7:34 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

    On the survivability point, wow! She's just as durable (slightly more durable actually) than every other caster!

    I actually use negative or neutral strength and still come out getting the most kills in Kuva a lot of the time with my Mag.

    Forced synergy? Not really. Not at all actually. Just go for chokepoints on the map and lock them down.

    What MP said, sounds like you've barely touched the Frame and went on a rant because you don't like her.

    It isn't a Mag only problem, but I never said it was exclusive to her, either. All frames should be able to take a hit or two in high level missions without being killed. We shouldn't need to permanently stun enemies to survive.


    On 2018-06-06 at 3:42 PM, Ajwf said:


    I a good reason to run Fleeting Expertise. You cannot give me a justification that I'll accept for a 60% cut of your ability duration on Mag. There's no good reason. 

    I personally don't like having to run Magnetized Discharge and Streamline, so I find the negative duration helpful for Magnetize in many mission types. Pull and Crush are unaffected, and Polarize still has a massive range with relatively little duration. It depends upon the situation, really.

  6. 44 minutes ago, Ajwf said:

    Man, Mag got an absolute gift from DE with these last changes and people still complain like she's some garbage frame. There's a lot of stuff here that I think is honestly stupid to ask for because Mag doesn't need to be Loki/Octavia powerful, and her design is only getting more powerful in the general warframe meta as a large-scale area wiping/control frame. 

    The fact of the matter is Counter Pulse is currently one of the best augments in the game. Having a 4-second full disarm on almost every corpus minus melees, all grineer minus non-shield melees (and no infested...) is really insane. And then there's the fact that the ability, at a good duration, will seriously room-wipe all enemies of their weapons. It's finally worth using on it's own, and that means you get the shards for the magnetize bubbles you already spam. 

    Mag already has some of the best weapon synergies in the game, be it with the Supra Vandal, the Zennistar, the Drakgoon, the Zarr, and some of the weird projectile shotguns. These weapons (exception Zennistar, Supra) are basically worthless on their own but with Mag become insane killing machines off her 2, capable of shredding enemies at any level within magnetize. 

    And while overshields normally aren't worth it, I don't ever see people complaining sporting 2000 overshields like a damn Harrow blessed with perfect aim. They aren't hard to get, they gave her proper survivability for using her 4, they're actually pretty manageable to gain back.

    If anything, I think some of her older augments need some QOL updates. Her Magnetize Discharge disarming enemies at a 50% chance on explosion helps exactly no one. 50% base, and affected by ability strength? I'm sorry, but ability strength is normally the one stat Mag can forgo and not feel bad about losing. You normally want a combination of range (1 pull area, 2 size, 4 area, 3 base size?), duration (2 length of time, 3 area covered, which is the big one) and efficiency. So you're basically at a coin flip for a disarm for each enemy. 200% Strength is not a build I've ever seen on Mag. The only other utility thing strength does for Mag is increase overshields on Crush and tbh that's not needed if you're using crush correctly. You normally gain 200 shields per tick over 3 ticks on most casts. Fracturing Crush is cool for stripping armor but the finishing CC (can't move for like 7 seconds) is useless because those enemies can still fire. I'd prefer a reduced fire rate or something to preventing movement in a game where we're so hyper mobile. 

    Like I find it hard to believe people are complaining about Mag herself given the state she was in prior to this rework. She's workable at any level and, with experience, incredibly strong. That's so much more than can be said for half the frames in this game. Lest we get too close to the sun and end up like Ember. Some of these criticisms would be cool to see (% armor strip on 3) but again, we're already close to the sun with how dominate she can be especially off her counter pulse augment. 

    I understand that Mag's in a much better state now than she was before--but just because something is good doesn't mean that it is wrong to want it to be great. She can still be improved quite a bit without being top tier or anywhere near overpowered. 🙂

    If not exactly the changes in the OP, I think we can all agree on this much:

    • Pull should allow us greater precision in corralling enemies.
    • Pull's Energy Orb generation mechanic shouldn't require her to kill the target.
    • Magnetize's damage should scale better with the damage dealt by Pull/Polarize/Crush and the damage dealt by weapons that lack obvious synergy with the ability.
    • Magnetize needs some sort of QoL changes to make it less difficult to use with projectile weapons.
    • Magnetize should, in some way, have manual detonation.
    • Polarize's armor reduction needs to scale far better than it does.
    • Crush and Fracturing Crush need to be less redundant with Polarize and Counter Pulse since both abilities deal damage, remove armor, restore shields, and CC enemies.
  7. 13 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

    The issue with magnetize is that enemies in front of magnetize can't be hit with hitscan weapons, and enemies on the edge of magnetize can only be hit with projectile weapons if the projectile passes through the enemy to get to the center of magnetize.

    Like I said before, make the magnetize absorbtion area smaller(30~50% the size or so?) than the damage area and fix the hitscan bug, and magnetize will be fine. No further changes needed. It does plenty of damage, it just doesn't do it to enemies at the edge of the bubble, but if you can attack those enemies normally anyway, it doesn't matter. Simple fix, mechanically it's very similar to an existing ability(amesha), there's no reason this shouldn't solve everything without any major changes. Bonus points if the augment, instead of requiring reactivation to explode a bubble, causes the bubble to instantly(no slow shrink) burst as soon as no enemies occupy the space in the core(the part that absorbs bullets, as apposed to the damage area)

    Crush detonating magnetize is a pretty big deal, and not a great idea. It removes the defensive property of camping inside the magnetize bubble, forces you to detonate all magnetize to activate crush, and it's not necessary to fix magnetize.

    For the pull suggestion, the issue is that pull is mag's fastest CC ability for a reason. It's a defensive move meant to quickly incapacitate immediate threats to take the heat off mag so she can use the rest of her kit. The only issues it has are not working through walls, and greedy pull not pulling resources for the party. The proposed changes not only break this functionality(and it's important for squishy mag to have this!) but the other suggestions are honestly kind of OP.


    Adding a stagger to base polarize is also unnecessary and undesirable as it would slow down enemy movement, which is the opposite of what you want in a defense mission, aka where the expanding bubble actually functions best. Leave it for the augment. I think the amour reduction should be a % of armor, though, and the damage should be a fixed value not capped by armor or shields. Enemies just explode for X damage on being hit(maybe 300 base? something low) after having their armor/shields reduced by Y %(25%*str?) since it currently doesn't scale to high level enemies, which is where armor stripping is needed in the first place.


    Also, imo, change fracturing crush to cause a cold proc on the final tick rather than "stopping enemy movement", as the brief slow will have a much better effect on the CC viability of Crush. The armor reduction is honestly stupid, and should be shifted over to a more effective polarize, but eh. Maybe make it boost allied damage to affected enemies by 20%*power str.

    But, those are pretty minor issues compared to bullet attract being worse than ever.

    Since that Magnetize issue is an obvious bug or oversight I didn't feel like addressing it, but I did add it to the OP. Adjusting the size of Magnetize is a controversial change, which is why I didn't suggest it. It might not need considerable buffs, but the suggestion does improve projectile weapons being unable to hit things inside of the bubble without altering the physics because of the status chance and damage type changes. The only other way it is really affected is allowing Crush and Pull to increase its damage which should really be the case already since it is a drop in the bucket compared to a single Lanka/Tigris Prime shot. I get where you're coming from with Crush affecting Magnetize's detonation, but like I said standing inside of Magnetize bubbles used to be a reliable defense and is now a good way to get yourself killed. I'd honestly prefer Magnetize to just be recastable as a base function, but a lot of Mag players don't want that. I know I wouldn't want the augment to detonate automatically after killing all the enemies inside,  since I may have enough duration remaining on it to detonate it on another group later (Unless that's what the Augment does AND the ability can be detonated manually as a base function).

    I don't think the Pull cast paradigm changes affect its defensive use at all. It is virtually instant to mouse vaguely in front of you or at your feet and get the same benefit of current Pull. It having the Magnetic status certainly isn't OP.  Shields are already irrelevant because Toxin damage ignores them, and there're a dozen weapons that can apply that effect just as easily like the Synoid Simulor. It creating Energy Orbs 25% of the time after spending 75 Energy is nothing compared to Trinity or Harrow or Zenurik or Large Energy Restores.

    Polarize having a stagger shouldn't slow down defense missions because the only enemies that have no shields or armor are the Infested and some Corrupted units. You'd only trigger the stagger on enemies that you've already removed all the shields and armor off of, which means you've already used the ability and hit with its expansion at least once. Besides, a stagger only slows enemies down by about a half of a second. Polarize affecting base armor is more or less the same thing as affecting a percentage of total armor. The percentage just differs depending upon the enemy type. A Lancer has 100 base armor, and a Corrupted Bombard has 500 base armor. Polarize with 40% Strength would remove all of the armor off of a Lancer, but only remove 20% of a Bombard's armor. Polarize with >=200% Strength would remove all of the armor off of almost everything.

    I actually originally had Fracturing Crush changed to a Cold proc, but it was redundant with new Magnetized Discharge and I felt it wasn't as fitting for her thematic as a generic Puncture proc. Both are good, since they add some additional utility and reduce the damage enemies deal.

  8. 38 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

    Your suggestions to magnetize don't address the issue of it protecting enemies inside of it, and generally being a pain to work with, as well as generally not being necessary to it's function.

    In fact, in general, these changes are pretty damn significant, and far more than "just QoL tweaks and bug fixes".

    I also didn't see any mention of the hitscan magnetize bug.

    My changes to Pull's cast paradigm are significant, but the basic idea is just to let Mag have actual control over where enemies get sent. You could fix that without changing the cast paradigm, which is what most people want. I thought about that and realized Mag doesn't always want to pull enemies to her since standing inside her own Magnetize bubble is likely to get her killed thanks to the physics changes a few patches ago.

    As for Magnetize, by giving it a status chance, making its damage over time type match the damage it absorbs, and making it actually behave consistently and absorb the damage dealt from all weapons (as in please fix the bugs that seem to show up every other patch) it will fix Magnetize being a griefing tool. It will end up like Hydroid's Undertow where you can easily kill the things inside by shooting at it, at least for the enemies actually in the field. There's not much to be done about it blocking hallways except making it so that Mag is the only one who can contribute to it or making its range static both of which would feel terrible. It can be a little annoying, but Frost and Limbo are far worse than Mag in that regard, anyways.

    What's significant about the other changes? You can do literally everything that you could before, but are infinitely more flexible and reliable.

  9. 14 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

    @MagPrime I SUMMON THEE!

    Though I am surprised you weren't already here.

    As for the OP, I agree that much of the synergy is forced, and that there can be difficulty in modding her, the only change I think is really needed is your change to Pull. As it stands now, Pull is just a ragdoll with a vague force vector that isn't useful for anything but emergency CC (and limited in that). The only other change I can think of is to increase the pull strength of Magnetize, so that enemies can't animation-lock their way out of it.


    Don't get me wrong, there are a few builds I like on her. But I'd really like to not have to put in so much work and change my loadout or run specific weapons just to keep my damage and CC consistent across the various factions. I really hate losing a mod slot to Magnetized Discharge because its CC is strictly worse than Counter Pulse or Crush, but I'd like to control when Magnetize goes off. I know a lot of Mag players don't like Magnetized Discharge because they don't want to accidentally detonate Magnetize, which is fair and thus why I suggested adding that effect to Crush and making the Magnetize augment do what it currently does but in a way that's less redundant with Counter Pulse.

    The big change is making Polarize strip armor without having to spam it or Fracturing Crush. Everything else is just QoL tweaks and bug fixes. Nothing here is all that crazy. I like Mag as she is, but I'm also not so biased that I can't see where she could easily be improved.

  10. 14 hours ago, AdvisorZ said:

    So, what I have just read:
    "Mag does not bring damage" - Of course. I destroy with her help 150 (+/-) levels of any faction. Yes. No damage.
    "Mag does not survive" - Sure. She was upgraded, added shields from the Ultimate (including for teammates), and slightly reduced cast time. Augmented "Disarmament" with manual disconnection of the dome.
    Yes. All what not stand still  and does not receive damage - Rino Trinity Chroma Nidus - , while drinking tea, all badly survives. To spit on "to move in battle," "modes of vitality," "mechanics of abilities and their adaptation." Yes. 

    " Mag badly controls opponents ". Of course. Can hurl opponents with the first ability as much as she wants (not to mention the fact that this ability was exposed to nerf). She can keep the opponent with her fourth ability as much as she wants, plus, with the augment - control gets even better.  Yes. She is a "very bad" crowd controller.

    So, what did I see? Nothing new. Again, whining, which has already hurt many frames (and will still harm, more than once, in future updates). 

    "I cant deal damage by playing for Mag, I cant survive by playing for Mag, I cant do anything, by playing for Mag. So - I order you to spit on the players and do as I said !! Change Mag, because I do not know how to play for Mag!". 

    Dude, if you do not know how, that's your personal problem. But whining and complaining that: "Ah, a bad frame., Change!" - no one needs. You will only spoil everything. Or learn, or leave the frame alone, and do not spoil the pleasure of other players. 

    The only thing useful in the entire monologue is: Words about 100% status, for the 1st and 4th abilities. 25% chance to pull the sphere of energy out of the opponent. Replacement of passive ability (or increase the radius of attraction). That's all. 

    Everything other in this monologue - personal fantasies about "unicorns, rainbow, invulnerability and mass destruction with one click" (you need to another universe, sir) who have already done enough bad things.

    Mag like everything is not perfect. But she is excellent, as she is. And she does not need any changes and "vanilla" ideas.  (Only those little ones that I mentioned).


    P.S I have one personal request, DE. If you read this. Please, never, do not change Mag, she's good! Never.

    The only things suggested here that are anywhere near controversial are changes to Pull's cast paradigm and making Crush detonate Magnetize. The former is almost strictly an improvement. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to actually control where Pull pulls things. The latter, well, Crush sans Fracturing Crush is objectively one of the least effective powers in the game. I made it do potentially massive damage if you take the time to set it up. The rest is just quality of life changes or slight numerical tweaks to offset the significant buffs. No one proposed dramatic and radical changes to her identity. She loses absolutely nothing.

    It isn't hard to tackle level 150 enemies. It isn't hard to parkour, and no matter how good you are at it you will eventually eat a Bombard rocket or have a Nullifier snipe you out of Bullet Jump. It isn't hard to mod Corrosive Projection, use status weapons with Corrosive damage or use Radiation/Hunter's Munitions on a crit weapon. You aren't better than me or anyone else for doing those things. But we can do better than expect every almost every single Warframe to run those things in every single mission to make up for their frame's innate lack of scaling, and we certainly shouldn't be doing that whilst spamming CC abilities like Counter Pulse whilst crouched behind a chest high wall because losing track of a single enemy for a quarter of a second means instant death. Warframe is a fast paced horde shooter. You aren't special because you manage to play Mag in high level missions like you're Nathan Drake.

    Threads like these exist because a lot of us would rather play a better game than meet someone's narrow preconceptions of 'playing better'.

  11. 41 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

    pretty much. the only thing mag needs really is a better passive.

    The new kit is infinitely better than the old kit, sure. But Saryn 2.0 was better than Saryn 1.0 and better than Mag currently is and they still went through the effort to release Saryn 3.0. There is almost always going to room for improvement.

    Why should we settle for Magnetize bubbles we can't control without an Augment? Why should we settle for Fracturing Crush / Polarize being unable to strip armor when Ash, Oberon, Saryn, Banshee, and Hydroid can easily do that and more than the rest of Mag's kit with less effort? Why should we have to use a Lanka or other projectile weapon for Magnetize to even properly absorb damage? Why should Polarize have a faction it does absolutely nothing against? Why should Crush cost more energy, deal less damage and have less range and less CC than Polarize when the only thing it does slightly better is generate overshields if you have a dozen enemies nearby and are already maxed or near maxed out on shields?

    Mag might not need work as much as some other frames like Ember or Vauban, but she's nowhere near as effective or as well designed as Atlas, Banshee, Equinox, Harrow, Hydroid, Inaros, Khora, Limbo, Loki, Nekros, Nezha, Nidus, Nova, Oberon, Octavia, Rhino, Saryn, Valkyr, or Volt.

  12. Her survivability is laughable. Her synergy is forced and ineffective. Her energy costs are astronomical. Her damage is irrelevant without abusing specific weapon loadouts or massive investments in Ability Strength. Her crowd control is lackluster without her Augments--Counter Pulse almost strictly outclasses Fracturing Crush and Magnetized Discharge in that regard, but at least one of those still ends up being mandatory depending upon what mission you're in. She requires Ability Duration for Polarize's range and to use two of those Augments but doing so makes Magnetize unwieldy. You're also almost always forced to run Fleeting Expertise unless you somehow manage to make do with Zenurik and Streamline.

    Detailed Explanation:



    Let's go through a usual bout of modding Mag.

    We put on Vitality so that we don't bleed out all over that pretty tile after taking a few Slash procs or fighting Venomous Eximi. Next we throw on Counter Pulse so that we don't die to stray Bombard rockets or get ambushed by a Detron Crewman. We'll throw on Fleeting Expertise so we can actually use our powers and Primed Continuity so we can actually use Polarize. So far, so good, right?

    Well, that's where things get frustrating. Overextended seems like a nice fit for Pull, Magnetize, and Crush--but if we do that our Magnetize bubbles are more of a hinderance than anything on small tilesets, and since Blind Rage is out of the question with these energy costs we end up having to run Intensify AND Transient Fortitude if we want to use Magnetize with a weapon other than the Lanka. And this is before we've even talked about armor.

    Maybe just Stretch, then? Sadly, the base explosion range on Magnetize is 15m and Crush is 18m, so that isn't enough most of the time. We can add Augur Reach, but now we're down to 2 mod slots. If the mission is against Grineer or Corrupted, we need to run Fracturing Crush to deal with their armor. Crush's cast time is abhorrent, so we run Natural Talent...And then we still don't have any Strength to actually deal with their armor. 

    Maybe we take out Augur Reach and slot in Transient Fortitude? Now our Duration on Counter Pulse is barely longer than our reload speed with half of the weapons in the game. Maybe just Intensify? Sure, that seems ok.

    And then we go into a Sortie and our powers do no damage because Polarize affects total armor. We can cast Polarize and then Crush two or three times in a row and finish with another Polarize...But now we've spent all of our energy and six seconds doing nothing more than stripping them of their armor.

    And then we die, because some Bombard behind us and just outside of Crush's range got out of Counter Pulse. Back to the drawing board.

    And all I can think is: Why? Mag has a combo!

    In theory, at least. You use Crush to lock them down, Polarize to weaken their defenses, Pull to round them up, and Magnetize to blow them away.

    Except that isn't what happens. You have to cast Polarize first so you don't die in Crush's animation. Then you cast Pull to group them up and...they all go flying randomly behind you across the room. (That, or you only hit the Corrupted/Ancient Healer because its aura protects everything around it from Pull's CC.) Then you cast Magnetize and start filling that poor guy full of holes, waiting for the big bang. And then it never comes because you kill everything in the room and then Magnetize dies off with a whimper. You can fix some of these issues with modding, but it's ultimately like trying to patch a major hull breach when you're already on a sinking ship. You constantly find at least one or two major issues that you cannot seem to get rid of.


    If not exactly the changes below, I think we can all agree on this much:

    • Mag's Energy usage needs toned down. [Remember that this is caused, primarily, by her dependence upon Polarize and Fracturing Crush to deal with enemy scaling. And to a lesser extent by her dependence upon spamming her two most expensive abilities for the shields they generate.]
    • Pull should allow us greater precision in corralling enemies.
    • Pull's Energy Orb generation mechanic shouldn't require her to kill the target.
    • Magnetize's damage should scale better with the damage dealt by Pull/Polarize/Crush and the damage dealt by weapons that lack obvious synergy with the ability.
    • Magnetize needs some sort of QoL changes to make it less difficult to use with projectile weapons.
    • Magnetize should, in some way, have manual detonation.
    • Polarize's armor reduction needs to scale far better than it does.
    • Crush and Fracturing Crush need to be less redundant with Polarize and Counter Pulse since both abilities deal damage, remove armor, restore shields, and CC enemies.

    My Suggestions:

    Pull: No longer pulls enemies wildly towards Mag. Instead, Mag pulls all enemies within 15/20m (affected by Ability Range) of the point her reticle is aiming at a distance of 15m (affected by Ability Range) towards said point. This works like Hydroid's Tempest Barrage and has infinite cast range. Furthermore, keep in mind that Pull is currently either a hemisphere or a cone, though it is extremely difficult to prove for certain it is one or the other. If it is a cone, then a 15m radius sphere is very similar in volume. If it is a hemisphere, as seems more likely, then a 20m radius sphere is similar in volume. In other words, please ignore that the range has 'gone down'. It has not--it has merely been redistributed. Damage reduced to 100 (affected by Ability Strength). Damage multiplier on Magnetized targets changed to 4x (affected by Ability Strength) and this damage is now absorbed by Magnetize. The first time Pull is used on an enemy directly targeted by Magnetize there is a 25% chance (affected by Ability Strength) to spawn an Energy Orb. Pull now has a 100% chance to apply the Magnetic Status.

    • Augment - Greedy Pull: Unchanged

    Magnetize: The damage dealt by Magnetize's damage over time effect is now based upon the greatest absorbed damage type. Magnetize's damage over time now has a 20% Status Chance (affected by Ability Strength). Magnetize now properly absorbs the damage dealt from all weapons. Magnetize no longer has bizarre targeting interactions with hitscan weapons.

    • Augment - Magnetized Discharge: No longer has a chance to disarm enemies. Instead, enemies are slowed by 60% (affected by Ability Strength, cannot exceed 80%) for 6 seconds (affected by Ability Duration). Magnetize can still be manually detonated with this augment.

    From what I can tell Magnetize currently only tracks damage instances that actually hit an enemy within it. Shooting the sphere with no enemies inside does not add damage. Shooting at the sphere whilst enemies are inside it, but not in the center, will not add damage unless they collide with a shot left trapped in the field. If a single shot manages to strike enemies multiple times it will add damage to Magnetize multiple times. If an enemy is attacked with a weapon which has multishot and the target dies to the first pellet, then subsequent pellets will not add damage as the target died before they hit.

    All of this together means that the properties of Mag's weapons and the health of Mag's target affect the damage dealt by Magnetize in an absurd manner.

    Two weapons which have the same DPS and time to kill can add dramatically different values to Magnetize. This is particularly significant when you compare high rate of fire but low damage weaponry, such assault rifles, and high damage but low rate of fire weapons such as snipers. They may both kill a target in a single shot, but only the sniper will contribute significantly to the damage absorbed by Magnetize. Status weapons are affected by this even more, as not only are they typically high rate of fire but low damage weapons, they also tend to rely upon the Corrosive status which does not actually deal damage.

    I want to fix this.

    Ideally by making it so that Magnetize tracks the damage type and damage dealt to the sphere itself, rather than the raw damage dealt to enemies inside of the sphere. This would still allow projectile weapons to damage enemies multiple times. It would not, however, allow a single Lanka shot to increase Magnetize's damage for every time it hits an enemy. This is not a nerf, though it may seem like it at first glance, because the damage type dealt by Magnetize's damage over time will be able to ignore 75% of a target's alloy armor with Radiation damage or 75% of a target's ferrite armor with Corrosive damage, on top of the expected 1.75x damage increase in both cases.

    Polarize: Polarize now briefly staggers enemies that have neither armor nor shields. Polarize's damage changed to 250 (affected by Ability Strength) and Polarize's shield restoration is changed to 500 (affected by Ability Strength). Polarize's armor reduction now applies to base armor as opposed to total armor. The shards created by Polarize now add 100 (affected by Ability Strength) damage to Magnetize.

    • Augment - Counter Pulse: Unchanged

    Crush: Crush now causes all instances of Magnetize within range to detonate, and its damage is absorbed by Magnetize.

    • Augment - Fracturing Crush: No longer reduces enemy armor. Instead, all enemies are affected by the Puncture Status and cannot move for 8 seconds (affected by Ability Duration).



    This satisfies every bullet point listed above. In addition: Mag has substantially greater flexibility in her modding as her base abilities are improved and her Augments diversified, her survivability has improved, and her crowd control options are more differentiated. A large amount of Ability Duration no longer hinders your ability to detonate Magnetize and/or no longer mandates an Augment. Ability Strength is now more beneficial to Mag, but is still not required. Ability Efficiency is improved as a  Mag no longer has to cast Crush and Polarize multiple times in a row for Magnetize to scale against armored enemies. Ability Range is just as powerful as it is now, but Mag players running low Range should enjoy still being able to use Pull to round up far away foes. Melee Mag players should enjoy using Condition Overload with the Puncture procs from Fracturing Crush and the Magnetic proc from Pull.

  13. On 2018-06-03 at 12:41 PM, Torrempesta said:

    What part of "Maybe it wasn't clear to me" you don't get?

    Motorfirebox just answered my question. You posted a link that maybe (you don't know it) I already consulted.
    And now you are making this whole thread toxic for the sake of it.

    I'll agree they were condescending and should not have been. I'll apologize on their behalf. That said, whilst it does not justify their behavior, there is an explanation for it: Threads like these are spam. They do not provide feedback. They are easily answered via the Wiki or resources available in game such as the Simulacrum. In Players Helping Players, this is fine. Learning is a good thing! But this is not the correct forum for that. And even if it were, I'm fairly certain this has probably been answered elsewhere. The forum does have a search feature.

  14. Its base damage per second is slightly lower with the listed changes, but its supplemental stats have been significantly buffed. Its increased fire rate will likely be a slight nerf to its presently amazing ammo economy, but that's minor and actually kind of hard to gauge. The descriptions for the new ramping effect and the .5 ammo per trace mechanic seems, to me at least, to suggest that continuous fire weapons will only consume ammo when you actually hit a target, similar to the way the Panthera's alt-fire functions now. At any rate, all you've done here, OP, is make a knee-jerk dramatization of the changes without proper context or even waiting to test them out. Which seems silly, since they explicitly said in the Dev Workshop thread that the changes are difficult to articulate or gauge on paper.

  15. 1 hour ago, Devin90 said:

    Undertow is just a bad concept for an ability.

    You sit there.

    As a puddle.

    I don't care if it's effective or not, this is not engaging gameplay.

    Previously, yes. That was all it did.

    Now, however, it does so much more. And it is, believe it or not, engaging gameplay. In all honesty, it is probably one of the BEST designed abilities in the entire game.


    5 hours ago, EpicBred said:


    No. There is a big difference between those two abilities. You cant stay in nyxs 4 as long as you want. Enemies drain your energy so fast you just cant keep it up, its a panic ability. You get punished for staying in it for too long (no energy). But hydroid players get rewarded for staying in puddle. Youre invincible and can instakill with easily managable energy drain. See, I can just not use puddle and jump around to not get hit, but why would I do that? I have better results if I just use puddle, im encouraged to press 3 and stay in there. Am I encouraged for staying in nyxs 4? No, I get punished.


    This is so blatantly hyperbolic it is disgusting.

    Do you know why the cost of Nyx's Absorb increases based upon the amount of damage Nyx takes? Because once upon a time you could sit on top of a Defense objective in Absorb and render the target invulnerable, as well as store up a nuke large enough to destroy a large area of enemies of almost any level instantly.

    Undertow is nowhere near that degree of abusive. Yes, you can typically sustain it indefinitely and potentially kill enemies of almost any level with it, but this is not advantageous in the vast majority of cases. Why? Let me count the reasons.

    1. Most enemies can be killed far more easily by simply shooting them. This is generally only false in the case of enemies with an extremely high level. And, for the record, DE has stated explicitly on numerous occasions that the game is not balanced around such enemies.
    2. Most mission objectives force you to move far more than you are capable of in Undertow.
    3. Undertow cannot effectively deal with Nullifiers, Ancient Healers/Ancient Disruptors, heavily armored Grineeer, or the adaptive defenses of the Sentient.
    4. Hydroid cannot provide invulnerability for his team or his mission objectives.
    5. Hydroid cannot interact with consoles, mission objectives, or collect loot or restore Energy.

    And even if Hydroid IS rewarded for sitting in Undertow, so what?

    The person playing Hydroid is still going to have to actively be pressing buttons to use it.  After all, I promise you, enemies aren't just going to run into it at every opportunity, and you cannot always pull an enemy to their watery grave. For example, sometimes they are behind cover, or sometimes they are a Nullifier, or are protected by a Nullifier. Seeing as how Hydroid has to leave Undertow to move or collect loot, at some point he is going to be vulnerable. And this is going to happen far more frequently than it does for Wukong. In all honesty, i's going to happen exactly the same way that it happens for Rhino's Iron Skin and Nezha's Warding Halo. More frequently, in fact, because most people are going to be incentivized to move, even if they do not have to. And we're not out here with our pitchforks screaming about how broken they are. And I guarantee you they can kill enemies as fast as or even faster than Hydroid can with Undertow. All they would have to do is take any Slash melee weapon and equip Enduring Affliction, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush, and Drifting Contact, since that particular combo allows infinitely scaling Finisher damage with an infinite duration. And UNLIKE Undertow, that particular cheese combo can be done with a MACRO.

    In all honesty, Undertow is probably less abusive than a Frost sitting on top of the Defense objective and spamming his Snow Globe, which CAN be maintained 100% indefinitely and DOES provide his team and his objective with nigh invulnerability. It might not deal damage on its own, but it's not as though there aren't plenty of ways in this game to deal a disgusting amount of damage without any sort of thought. You know. Like melee Slide spam, or the Staticor, or the Ignis, or World on Fire, or Resonating Quake...

    And what about the GOOD gameplay that Hydroid has as a result of Undertow? You can effectively take cover in plain sight to reload or heal or regain your shields. You can narrowly avoid the shots that you otherwise would have failed to dodge. You can gather your enemies into a cluster for you to mow down. You can isolate and control specific targets. You can toggle it briefly to knock down enemies and open them up to Finishers. You can use it to assess your surroundings before you proceed. You can use it to avoid detection in Spy missions. You can use it to prevent Tidal Surge from splattering you into a wall.

    There are far more things that you can do, and that you can do better, if you only use Undertow to augment what you are doing, rather than attempting to replace what you are doing with it.

    If you don't want to sit and kill everything whilst being invulnerable, I suggest you start playing Hydroid and stop playing Ember, and go to somewhere other than Mercury.


  16. 2 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

    Not sure of what the point of like everything except the last two paragraphs was, as i already established that tempest barrage is a superior move.  I said they could be used for different functions. Not that i find tentacle swarm better, or that i had no idea what the word "radius" meant.

    I also never said that they were the same as bastille and vortex.  I said to think of it "like" those moves. As in, area denial duration based cc,  with the other still serving a functional purpose. Its also strange how you said that bastille has a way larger range than tempest barrage... Its 10 meters at base... which means it hits 25 meters with max range. Which is the exact range a max range tempest barrage can hit as you yourself established in the same post. 

    As far as tentacle swarm. I've already stated the ways i use it that i dont use tempest barrage. It works for me. True, i dont HAVE to use it, but it makes my games easier when i do. 

    I look at them as two sides of the same coin. vauban enables great gunplay and "ok" melee play for your team through cc. Hydroid enables great melee and "ok" gunplay through cc. 

    You are not using them for different functions. You are using them for different but arbitrary reasons. That is to say Tempest Barrage is so much better that the only reason you are not casting it instead is because you do not want to. And there is a huge difference.

    Bastille is considerably larger than Vortex. I was not talking about it being larger than Tempest Barrage. The point is to highlight how there are far more differences, which also happen to be significant and useful, between Bastille and Vortex than there are between Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm.



    4 hours ago, LSG501 said:

    Then why even put it on there... that type of gameplay is the most lazy approach you can have in this game.

    Agreed. But, at the very least, it differentiates Hydroid's 1 and 4.

  17. 15 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

    I think this is just a personal bias against the playstyle of cc frames?  I mean, i get it, they are all essentially area denial, duration based cc, but to me, they all serve a different purpose. 

    Tempest barrage, i pretty much just spam on cast cooldown. Tentacle swarm, I use on timer cooldown., either spread out just to slow down incoming waves, or i bunch them together to lock down an area that i'm not constantly barraging. 

    Basically, i use tempest barrage for engage and for safety, and tentacle swarm to stall Now you CAN use tempest barrage to stall, but it being locked at 10 meters with 1/4 of the duration makes it less effective at indirectly stalling enemies. Like you cant just passively cast tempest barrage while focusing on a group in front of you, and cc enemies all around you. You can with tentacle swarm. 

    The range of Tempest Barrage is misleading.

    Four times each second, Tempest Barrage chooses a random point within 10m of the targeted location and causes an explosion that deals damage and knocks down all enemies within 5m.

    If a missile were to land directly at the cast point of Tempest Barrage, it would not stun every enemy in the 10m area. With maximum range, however, a missile that were to land directly at the cast point of Tempest Barrage would damage and knock down all enemies within 12.5m, which is actually an area larger than the initial 10m targeting range.

    As a result, Tempest Barrage has the ability to stun anything within a ~14 to ~25m Radius of your cast location, with Power Range affecting not just the total area it can affect, but also the reliability with which it does so.

    Yes, this is a smaller area than a maximized Power Range Tentacle Swarm cast with a full charge, and it does not last as long. But with that said, unlike Tentacle Swarm, Tempest Barrage costs less Energy, does not have a target cap,  does not make it as difficult to hit affected targets, can be recast an unlimited number of times, does not interrupt your animations, can damage enemies inside of Undertow, and is less dependent upon enemy spawn patterns and terrain to retain its efficacy over its full duration.

    Unless you have a desperate need to target random enemies that are out of line of sight and are far beyond Tempest Barrage's effective radius, anything you can do with Tentacle Swarm you can do by casting Tempest Barrage.

    The only real practical benefit Tentacle Swarm has that Tempest Barrage does not is that it lasts longer, but since half of its duration ends up wasted if enemies change their spawn patterns, this is solved by merely turning around to hit 1 twice as often as you would to hit 4.


    All this isn't to say that Tentacle Swarm is unusable. It's every bit as usable as Well of Life is on Trinity. It does do things. It just does what it does almost strictly worse than another ability that the same frame has easier access to.

    This is NOT the same as Bastille / Vortex, because whilst those two abilities do overlap in that they are both area denial abilities, Bastille has substantially more range, is not as reliable due to its target cap, allows Vauban and his squad to easily score headshots, and Vortex is reliable, makes it difficult if not impossible to score headshots, forcibly relocates enemies, and combos with things such as the Gas status condition or the Pox Secondary Weapon in a way that Bastille does not. For the enemies it may not make much of a difference, but for the player, the choice behind pressing 3 or 4 is often huge. It often is moot as to which one is chosen, but there are also plenty of circumstances where there is an actual mechanical reason to choose one over the other.

    Don't get me wrong. I use Tentacle Swarm. But every time I do, I'm aware that the only reason I have to do so is because I want to, and not because it actually does something significant that Tempest Barrage could not.

  18. 2 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

    I'm a hardcore hydroid enthusiast, and while it does have very legitimate usage as a way to maintain stealth damage multipliers it certainly isnt as attractive a move as tempest barrage. But its still has its uses, depending on what kind of cc you prefer. . Think of it like vaubans bastille vs vortex

    I dont feel hydroid needs any more large buffs than he has honesty, as he's a frame with 4 cc moves as it is, armor shredding, tons of melee damage potential, and a scaling damage invincibility move.

    The only changes i can see being balanced here is 3, with 5 suffering from the same redundancy thats being complained about. The rest being either overpowered or useless. 

    I'm aware of Tentacle Swarm's interaction with Stealth Multipliers, but  I tend to avoid talking about it. Most of the time, Stealth Multipliers are unreliable, reliable but gimmicky, or hilariously overpowered. DE also has a habit of changing them, often without any sort of announcement, whether they mean to or not.

    That aside, though, I think Bastille versus Vortex isn't the best comparison. Whilst those two abilities are somewhat redundant, (and should honestly also be looked at as a result) they still are far more different in their usage than Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm.

    I do not feel as though Hydroid needs buffs, either. But he does need some differentiation between his first and his fourth abilities, and if that means he gets a small buff, I am totally on board.

    16 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

    What if tentacle swarm worked like nidus' virulence? The fungal growth ability?

    Virulence steals energy from each enemy it strikes

    So allow the tentacles to do something like this and maybe even have little crab minions scurrying around.

    Tidal surge and undertow would be the same ability 

    Tempest barrage would be the second ability

    And a water canon for his one. 


    And i vote for a small tidal surge on every ground slam with the chance of the tentacle, not only the tentacle.

    Hydroid has already been reworked, and DE is not going to radically change his powers. I do not want them to radically change his powers, and I doubt the old school Hydroid fans do, either.

    I just want Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm to function in some role that is not (better) accomplished by Tempest Barrage, which is what this thread is about.

  19. 53 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

    Do you not know how much some of us hate being in squads with an ember player that knows no other way of playing than pressing 4 as soon as they start the level.....


    Honestly all tentacle swarm needs in my opinion is faster charging (or removing it completely so it's like the old version) and more damage

    Duh? That's why it is the last thing on the list.

    The only reason I even suggested it is because, quite frankly, at least it would then be functionally different from Tempest Barrage. As it is now, they might as well be the same button. And in all honesty, Tempest Barrage usually does the job better.

    Tentacle Swarm has the same issue that Well of Life has. Redundancy. 
    That's the problem.

    A lot of us are aware of that and want to feel like hitting the button does something that our other powers cannot.

  20. First off: Thank you DE, for all of your amazing work on Hydroid's revamp.

    That said, there's just one major issue that still remains.

    Tentacle Swarm has no significant tactical usage, as it is too functionally similar to Tempest Barrage. They are both somewhat unreliable powers that disable enemies and deal damage in a specific area. This would be fine if it weren't for the fact that both of these abilities are in on the same Warframe.

    Here is a concise list of simple suggestions to improve Tentacle Swarm's usefulness provided in the order of my personal preference:

    1. Enemies killed whilst affected by Tentacle Swarm have a chance to drop a Health Orb.
    2. Tentacle Swarm's damage is reduced and changed to Impact, but now has a 15% Critical Chance, a 2.0 Critical Multiplier, a 25% Status Chance, and is affected by melee mods..
    3. Tentacle Swarm's damage now adds to the melee combo counter.
    4. Enemies killed whilst affected by Tentacle Swarm create an additional nearby Tentacle which lasts for the remaining duration or until the ability is recast.
    5. When Tentacle Swarm is recast, the Kraken resurfaces and rapidly travels to the designated position, ensnaring and dragging enemies along its path.
    6. Tentacle Swarm is now a toggled ability that follows Hydroid similar to World on Fire.
  21. 34 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

    The thing is, Oberon's abilities don't fulfill their purpose.

    You know why his 4 has the seemingly random effect of generating health orbs, right? Kubrows/Kavats are revived instantly upon picking one up. The fact that Reckoning requires to deal the killing blow in order to HAVE A CHANCE at creating the orb makes it not fulfill it's purpose. The correct way to buff this ability would have been forcing enemies hit by it for a set duration to have a chance to drop the orb.

    The armor buff is okay at best considering flat armor falls off CONSIDERABLY after 300 armor. A frame with 300 armor has 50% DR. A frame with 600 has 66%.

    His 1 and 3 changes were nothing spectacular,  either. Buffs? Sure, though there have been complaints about the range of his 3. Meaningful? No.

    All this "rework" did was give him a few % more damage reduction and create synergy that contradicts who he is as a frame.

    How SHOULD the rework have been? Instead of flat armor, they should have made it flat DR % similar to Trinity, Mirage, Mesa, etc... and they should have made the health orb generation from his 4 on hit rather than on kill. The issue with his kit is that it lacked scaling at consistency, the changes solved neither.

    Oberon had many issues with his kit which were solved with this rework, and I am baffled as to why people are insisting otherwise. Smite is relatively unchanged and remains a fun and effective ability. Hallowed Ground has a purpose and scales into late game via the Radiation proc--which I remind you is very effective CC, works with Condition Overload, and disables the Ancient Healer aura.  Renewal no longer shuts off prematurely, it is more reliable for his allies, it has synergy with both himself and other Warframes, and it makes him infinitely more durable than he previously was. And finally, Reckoning still acts as a potent nuke on low level missions and a fine panic button source of CC against the toughest of content.

    The only thing that leaves significant room for improvement is the fact that, I agree on Reckoning's Health Orb generation. It is a feature of the ability that becomes rather useless against even mid tier enemies, and completely moot on end game content, not to mention the endlessly scaling challenge runs the community is so fond of.

    Also, in the name of education: Armor has no diminishing returns or falloff. Every 3 points of armor increase your effective health by 1% of your base health.

    With 1000 HP and 300 armor, you can take 2000 damage before being downed. This is an additional 3.33 effective health per each point of armor. With 600 armor, you have 3000 effective health. Once again, this is an additional 3.33 health per each point of armor.

    Since both the health restoration and armor provided by Renewal scale with Power Strength, the durability it provides scales exponentially by investing in the stat. Damage reduction would be stronger, yes, but this is equally as effective in most cases, and more effective for allied Warframes that scale with armor, such as Frost or Rhino or Nezha. This also grants him synergy with allies, such as Trinity, who also grant damage reduction.

  22. 4 hours ago, (PS4)CaptainIMalik said:

    I would like shock to open finishers. 

    I'd like to cast Volt's abilities more, and get more use out of them.

    I do not want to waste hours in finishing animations that won't kill the target when I could just melee something to death in a quarter of the time.

  23. 17 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

    His 3 only has a 25 meter range at base with Limbo as the epicenter. It doesn't instantly effect everything in the rift. Also I think Rift Surge requires line of sight. You'll need to run around and spread the Rift Surge effect before you close your 4.

    25 meters is a huge base range. It goes up to a maximum of 62.5 (which there is very good reason to do so, as Strength is largely irrelevant to Limbo). That's insane. I do not think it requires LoS, though I've yet to test that. And remember that Rift Surge will spread from any enemies that die with the Rift Surge buff. Your suggestion would change very little.

    13 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

    IMO, make Stasis gradually slow enemies and their projectiles to a halt over a few seconds, and adjust the damage formula on Cataclysm.

    Instantly freezing enemies for 74+ seconds is hard CC gone overboard (how are non-nullifier enemies supposed to fight back). 10% of current remaining shields + HP still encourages spamming since you're stripping a percentage of their max shield/HP pools away with each cast, can't get damage better than that bar 1HKO.

    Stasis is fine. Yes, it halts enemies for a very long amount of time, but it also prevents those enemies from being dispatched without being in the Rift, and even then powers and melee damage are the only types of damage that can interact immediately with them. Rift Surge, Banish, and Cataclysm naturally pull more and more enemies into the Rift, whether you intend to or not, and this can make using Stasis a very dangerous game. It is very easy to make a mistake and mismanage it, and even if you use it perfectly, it matters very little. There are far more powerful CC abilities in the game that are far more convenient to use. See: Irradiating Disarm. The issue with CC in this game is not necessarily that it makes us infallible. It is that it makes us infallible and removes all meaningful interaction. In no way shape or form does Stasis remove meaningful player interaction.

  24. 1 hour ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

    I'm glad we have Limbo's power. It makes higher level mission actually be playable from a DPS approach instead of stealth and tanking. His Cataclysm doesn't need a nerf, it just needs a set up. I would like the idea that the Cataclysm damage only be applied to enemies affected by Rift Surge. Non Surged enemies only get the 300 impact damage from rift transition. That's it.

    This, at most, requires Limbo to press 4 3 4 rather than 4 4 and does not fix the fact that it is an incredibly non-interactive way to kill an entire tileset.

    It needs its damage nerfed.

    If it were up to me, I'd change the damage formula such that it does the plane transition damage, then the base damage of Cataclysm, and then does the scaling damage based upon the missing health, rather than the current health, of all units inside. The result would be that Cataclysm would function as a potent nuke to finish off enemies that did not quite die from the imminent damage you set up during your Stasis.

  25. Limbo does not need nerfed.

    Cataclysm does. And just Cataclysm.

    Limbo's Stasis is incredibly powerful, but it is honestly weaker and/or less convenient CC than many of the other forms we have in game already.

    The only way to use it is to drag enemies into the Rift. And to do that, Limbo must end his invulnerability long enough to cast Banish, use Rift Surge and Banish a target that is already in the Rift, or to use Cataclysm and Rift Surge, which will also (whether Cataclysm is detonated manually or ends naturally) end his invulnerability briefly. Those windows where Limbo is in the material plane or where Stasis must be toggled off are more than long enough for him to take damage or even be downed, and the cast time of Stasis is long enough to allow an enemy to fire off an attack. Whilst it will end up paused, it is very possible to allow a Bombard rocket to Red Light Green Light its way to him. Not to mention the fact that Limbo has to constantly be searching for enemies that are not yet in the Rift, and remembering to hit Rift Surge to make sure everything stays in the Rift.

    The worst 'abuse' case of Stasis is that Limbo uses his abilities perfectly and never misses an enemy or loses track of what plane they are in, and he can indefinitely kill enemies without them being able to retaliate, thus ensuring mission success. But does that even matter? Stasis requires Limbo to constantly interact with his surroundings and use all of his powers, and in doing so he has dozens and dozens of opportunities to make mistakes. As a result, Stasis granting Limbo the potential to make missions infallible does not invalidate gameplay. It merely changes the rules of the game. And it does so in a way that is interactive and fun.

  • Create New...