TheGodofWiFi
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Posts posted by TheGodofWiFi
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On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:
Honestly you shouldve also tested it with primary fury. It has shorter range, but its damage scales so much better due to having a jerry-rigged bloodrush (glad set on helios) and having such high crit AND status
It has the same range, it's just that Serene Storm is wider in it's spread. So EB is more precise, but SS has a wider cone. You don't actually need Bloodrush to be completely honest, because the status carries it all the way into late late game.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:Everyone seems toforget tanking doesnt just include DR or free invincibility.
What Flitz is specifcally referring to is how much damage one frame can face tank stat wise, not gameplay wise. This is becuase he's trying to prove Baruuk's Desolate Hands is an awesome ability. I know that tanking can mean more than just having DR, but thats not what Flitz is focusing on.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:Can proc 6 effects so CO on my baruuk build clears well, but of course no other exalted needs my occur
Exactly. No other Exalted weapon requires this sort of effort and it's not even worth it.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:The argument could be made that a timer is the incorrect way to reimplement DH. Honestly I dont have issues with how DH works by disarming enemies, and I dont really find daggers hitting enemies as an issue, since I usually run enough strength to have 17 daggers.
The problem is though is that you do not have any control over the daggers and they have insane range unless you purposely cripple Baruuk by building for negative range. It's not neccesarily disarming enemies I don't like, it's just that it does it incredibly slowly and as a result is really clunky to use. If it was changed so that the daggers only seek enemies once you recast Desolate Hands a second time, a timer would be neccesary, otherwise you could just run around with a permanent 90% damage reduction, which isn't very balanced. As for allies I don't think they should be getting any of the daggers at all. Gara already provides a far superior form of damage reduction to allies. It's an example of Baruuk trying to do too much with one ability.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:You shouldnt activate DH with the idea “oh boy im gonna disarm those enemies really good”, as its main purpose is damage reduction
Yea I know. It's just that the disarm would be a lot more useful if we had more control over the daggers and would make it a worthwhile side-salad to the main damage reduction.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:Ive had it happen before, but its rare enough that its a non-issue.
Its still just a problem with the AI though and it doesn't mean enemy input abilities are bad, which vFlitz is claiming they are.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:Enemies target based on “threat level.” That means for whatever reason the kavat was more dangerous then the wukong 😂
Well I mean, my cat can get pretty scary if he hasn't been fed at the right time haha. Give me an ancient war machine any day over that.
On 2019-09-04 at 7:18 PM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:Its usable, but needs some QoL touch ups and help.
Couldn't agree more.
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23 hours ago, vFlitz said:
Even so, at this rate it will take years for that kind of environments to make up for the majority of the game where we tend to actually most of our missions.
Doesn’t matter. The newer frames are being made to work better in open worlds.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:You can literally hop into simulacrum and check how much faster it crosses that 20m range, and how much more you can angle away from an enemy and still hit him.
The range is a cone unlike Exalted Blade which does give it a better spread, but the speed is basically the same. I took two clips of EB and DW side by side which I will be turning into a gif later.
Some major differences between them though are;
Exalted Blade does more damage and has more status.
Exalted Blade does not require a combo counter to be good.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:You're nitpicking, but okay. Tanking is a form of survivability, and it's exactly what I meant by that.
Its not being nitpicky, you said survivability, which is not synonymous with tankiness. In the umbrella term it falls under that label, but as demonstrated a tank might not necessarily be the best at surviving.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Baruuk tanks better than Wukong because of his extreme amounts of damage reduction.
On paper, Baruuk tanks better than Wukong. In game, he does not due to his incredibly poor mechanics. And in game function is where the final judgement is made as to whether a frame is good or not.
Baruuk was judged to be inferior.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:And why would we be excluding that? Abilities don't work in a vacuum.
Because we’re going by how much an Exalted frame can handle and how much damage it can do on its own.
If the frame abilities are good, the weapons aren’t need. Excalibur and Wukong can handle endgame just fine with their abilities and Exalted weapons.
Baruuk can’t.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:fodder can be killed at that level with Desert Wind no problem. It's only the heavies with high armor that it's too slow against.
False. I took Baruuk into the simulacrum with 250% power strength and the level 150 Corrupted Lancers took far more time to kill than it would have done had I been using Excal or Wukong.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Desolate Hands is a DR ability with a side bonus of minor CC. Comparing them by CC potential is silly. Apples and oranges.
And you have just pointed out why Desolate Hands has issues once again; its trying to be too many things at once and not dedicating itself towards one specific purpose, which is exactly why its a bad ability.
Loki’s Disarm focuses only on disarming and his invisibility keeps him alive. Gara’s Storm focuses on keeping her and others she chooses alive at the same time.
Baruuk is trying to do both of these frames jobs at once, with one ability and he really does not need too. Its way too much and it suffers for it. Its not silly to point out that CC is simply not need on that ability.
It’s not comparing apples to oranges, its pointing out that the orange is trying to be an apple and a strawberry alongside being an orange.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:I'm saying that in most cases it makes little difference for you if your CC is 20s or 30s long.
Bear in mind you are complaining that a 40 second timer is not enough for a reworked Desolate Hands.
It absolutely makes a difference if the ability is 20s or 30s. That ten seconds in a game as fast paced as this is a gift. He more duration your CC has the better it is.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Especially when in this particular case it's interrupted when enemies take any sort of damage.
Thats what happens with all sleep abilities apart from the fact that with Ivara and Equinox’s they wake up once 50% of their current health is depleted.
It’s compensation for the ability having such a huge range. Although I do admit the slow effect is annoying it would be great if it was an instant sleep.
It’s still an amazing CC ability though as it puts enemies into sleep for a long time and it gives you time to have some free shots.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:That's still shorter than I have to recast DH most of the time in its current state.
Yea because its permanent. Obviously a timer is going to shorter compared to that.
By timing standards, its a pretty nice amount of time to have damage reduction and you can get by fine with that.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:As I've been saying, the way the daggers are sent out one by one works exactly like a timer counting down,
And is another reason why it is terrible. It takes a full 15 seconds to disarm 15 enemies. That is straight up awful.
Having a real, good timer in which you can cast the ability before it runs out and all the daggers fly off at once, would be a lot better.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:even if the enemies that got disarmed were of no importance, you still lose some restraint.
A pitiful amount compared to the amount of restraint you could loose if all the enemies where disarmed at once, which would be a decent chunk, therefore making it easier to work with his four.
You see how these changes would make his synergy better as opposed to worse?
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Thing is, it really isn't necessary for him to have an easy time surviving.
According to the rest of the player-base, thats not exactly true.
People don’t want pre-rework Wukong, but they don’t want to have an anti-synergetic frame thats clunky to use either. There is a fine balance and Baruuk does not meet it.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Defy is 100% reliant on enemy input.
So are a lot of popular tanks like Rhino, Nezha, Chroma and Inaros.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Sometimes you can stand in the middle of a group of enemies and they just aren't interested in attacking you because they'd rather stare at your kavat instead.
Please post an example of this. One because it sounds hilarious as hel that enemies can be distracted by a cute kitty so much that they don’t shoot at the ancient bio-mechanical war-machine that is sitting in the middle of them.
Two, because it doesn’t happen.
This is pure hyperbole.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:That does make it rather clunky and unreliable.
No it doesn’t. If all the enemies prefer cooing at your cat than paying attention to you, despite you being in their faces then thats a problem with the AI, not the ability. This is probably one of the funniest attempts at making an ability seem bad I have ever seen haha.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:DH is just tap of a button and you're back to full protection near instantly.
Which you immediately start to loose due to enemies around you. Defy never looses its buff like that.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:If things get hectic and you get too distracted to keep track, you'll have a larger window to notice you're taking more damage
Dude, you’re using the concentration thing again. Thats not a real defence/argument as a players concentration has absolutely zero bearing on whether or not an ability is good. Just because you don’t like timers because it requires you to pay that little bit more attention to your abilities, doesn’t mean it is bad.
Stop putting this forward. Personal Concentration levels are utterly irrelevant in judging an abilities usefulness.
If I’m using Gara and I did not notice my Splinter timer run out due to me not paying attention and subsequently dying, that doesn’t mean the ability sucks. At all. No one would take you seriously if you used that as criticism.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:With a timer, the effect would just drop entirely and you'd most likely die.
Not if you actually concentrate and use his other abilities like Lull and then recast DH, therefore creating more synergy between abilities.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:Yeah, I'm just not seeing it. It does its job well and other than the interaction with Elude, it has no notable drawbacks to speak of
Apart from the ones that have been listed and you demonstrated.
Desolate Hands suffers from the same poor design as his other abilities in many ways. It tried to do too much all at once, its clunky and annoying to use and it could be so much better.
I honestly don’t know why you think this is good argument. You’re basically promoting less synergy when that is precisely Baruuk’s problem.
23 hours ago, vFlitz said:but when you see that it's just an alternative way for the ability to run out naturally, it's not that bad imo.
Simply looking at it like that doesn’t mean everyone will think “Oh okay this ability is fine” because they evidently have not. Its poorly designed way of making the daggers run out and a true timer would suit the ability for better.
You haven’t provided any strong arguments as to why the ability has no issues and instead have only highlighted how good some changes would do it. I mean you used your own personal attention span and a non-existent situation in which enemies are more interested in your cat than you try and make enemy input tank abilities look bad, as your defence points.
Its not a convincing argument.
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1 hour ago, vFlitz said:
Sure, let me know when most of the game is actually like that.
Its starting to be and that is a clear focus with the new Duvuri open world and the incredibly spaced out Sentient ship tileset. Not to mention Railjack. Thats the direction the game is going. The tight corridors and claustrophobic environments while slowly be phased out over time in favour of more open tiles.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:Of course, lets ignore the fact that Desert Wind's waves are about 5 times as big and fast.
Slightly bigger, not faster. That also doesn’t suddenly make the ability better evidentially. Distance wise it is the same.
Ask anyone which Exalted ability they’d rather take.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:Nope. Wrong on both accounts. No one who has any idea what they're talking about when it comes to frame survivability would say that.
Okay you’re officially moving the goalposts now. We are discussing tanking, survivability is another matter entirely. They are not synonymous. Tanking is about how much damage you can take. Survivability is how good you are at surviving. For example, Desolate Hands is a tank ability, Elude is a survivability type power.
If we go by survivability, Limbo is the king, hands down. All he has to do is go into his Rift and he is immune to everything but nullifiers.
You have blatantly confused tankiness with survivability here.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:No, the fodder won't live long enough to protect the Nox for long. That's the point.
At level 150. You just said yourself Baruuk struggles at level 80. That high level, the frame won’t be killing anything fast. We’re excluding guns and normal melee in this scenario.
Put Excalibur in front of Nox and accompanying mob and he takes care of it just fine. A Baruuk, not so.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:No, the fodder won't live long enough to protect the Nox for long. That's the point.
False. You stated that the scaling was the issue as to why Baruuk’s DH doesn’t function well as opposed to its poor design.
Loki completely disproves that. Loki’s Disarm doesn’t need to give allies a damage reduction, simply for two reasons;
1. The Radial Disarm is useful enough on its own.
2. He’s not trying to copy another frame. He’s focusing on what makes him a standout.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:What I was saying there is that duration is strictly inferior for the way the ability is managed.
So you’re saying that the current way of one dagger floating off at a time without your control is better than having a timer that allows you to keep all your daggers.
How exactly does that work?
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:So they're popular because timers are good, not because of the other things they offer? Good to know, I had no idea.
Changing the goalposts again.
You said the ability would be inferior as you would actually have to pay attention to the timer, otherwise you die. I was using Gara and Mesa as an example of how 90% damage reduction abilities can be very easily managed with a timer.
Deliberately trying to misrepresent what I’m saying helps no one.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:For real though, don't try to imply correlations that don't exist.
They do exist and you provided them for me by talking about how timers are “bad”.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:Doesn't mean timers are good or comfortable.
It also doesn’t mean timers are bad. The reason why we have timers on certain abilities is because they would be very OP without them, which means other methods of balancing would be made which could render them as useless as Desolate Hands.
Timers are far more comfortable than what Desolate Hands is right now. The whole reason for a timer would be so that the ability is not overpowered. Like you said; you can’t give a frame a permanent 90% DR buff. Its not balanced. The timer would be a compromise to having more control over the daggers but loosing the ability to have them float around you permanently, which they do right now.
Gara can refresh hers and Mesa cannot. Your point is what exactly? That a timer is useless if it can’t be refreshed? Again this is provably untrue with faithful Loki.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:For correction when a positioning mistake makes your Lull cast useless because of line of sight.
The enemies that come into the line of sight are affected by Lull as well even if they were not in line of sight during the initial casting.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:And yes, the fog has some uses, but much range, increasing duration past a certain point falls off in usefulness here.
CC never falls off in usefulness. That is fact. It is the only thing that can stand up the games scaling. Its the king of end-game even though its no longer the meta.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:And a defensive ability on a timer would incentivize far more duration than that.
Not if the defensive ability requires just a decent investment in power duration to be good. Like say 20-25 seconds at base. You’d only need a small investment of duration to make the ability perfect to use while also not making Lull last too long.
For example, Mesa’s Shatter Shield has a 25 second base duration at max rank. Add on a Primed Continuity and you’re looking at a pretty nice 38.75 seconds. Thats nearly two thirds of a minute. A pretty decent amount of time if you ask me. And thats just with one mod.
Lull lets 7.75 seconds with one Primed Continuity. This can also be tweaked to make it last less as well. This is the whole reason why this thread exists; to make Baruuk’s kit better.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:What I meant is, when you recast Desolate Hands, which you currently do to refresh your dagger count, all the daggers your currently have should be instantly sent out to disarm nearby enemies instead of simply being replaced. That's a simple but helpful change, and it gives him a more proactive option for the disarm, which fixes the lack of control issue that seems to be your main problem with it.
My issue is not just with the fact that you can’t send the daggers out all at once, its the fact that the daggers currently seek enemies/allies of their own accord when they come into range and you have no control over that.
Like I have been saying since the beginning; the daggers never seek out enemies randomly on their own anymore and stay with you. They should only seek enemies when the timer runs or you cast the ability before it does, whereupon all of the daggers will fly off at once.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:Thought an 'or' was pertaining to something else than it actually was, my bad.
That’s fine. I’m guilty of misreading sometimes. Everyone does it.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:Which is a kinda S#&$ty way to build him, because you gut all your utility and every way to get restraint down
Exactly. A stone-cold example of Baruuk’s Anti-synergy. You end up making the job harder so you can survive better.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:It's really not. To name a few, t's more effective and less clunky than new Defy, less effective but far more reliable than Shatter Shield, superior in literally every way to Null Star before it got bandaided with an augment.
The new Defy is pretty straightforward. Press a button and get extra armour that stays with you for a good while. Don’t see how that means its more clunky than Desolate Hands because that is just not true. You have full control over Defy, you do not have that with DH.
DH is more reliable in the fact that it can be refreshed. Nothing else. Loki and Mesa still are far more effective and more frequently used than Baruuk for that reason. They can’t refresh their two core abilities but that doesn’t mean the are inferior to DH.
Null Star I’ll give you that one as it disarms enemies rather than applying a pitiful 200 slash proc.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:Sure it might not be as good as Warding Halo or Splinter Storm, but point is that it's easily on par with all the good defensive abilities.
Stat wise you are correct. Mechanics wise it really really isn’t.
The daggers having a mind of their own just makes the ability an absolute annoyance, far more so than unreshreshable tank abilities. The grand majority would rather take a Mesa or a Loki over Baruuk any day, simply because they are more reliable in their mechanics and are easier to manage as a result.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:What really matters is that 90% DR. That is what people use the ability for. Switching it to be duration based is a nerf to that purpose and Baruuk's modding as a whole.
The purpose is to keep you alive. A timer has no effect on that concept. Desolate Hands being tweaked to make it duration based and have the daggers stay with you would be a massive benefit to his overall tankiness and reliability. You can already refresh it as well.
Also DH wouldn’t just be the one ability getting looked at. This is what we’ve been talking about, Baruuk’s whole kit would be looked at. Desolate Hands is not the only ability that suffers from anti-synergy/poor design.
1 hour ago, vFlitz said:And the reason is that Elude is a wasted ability slot, Desert Wind can't be accessed immediately when the mission starts like other exalteds and it requires a lot of ability juggling to maintain, so people expect it to be amazing in any kind of content after all that effort but then it turns out it isn't. Also Lull is practically forced to be a spammed restraint dump instead of a cc skill that it's designed as, and its delayed activation is hardly satisfying when current meta is all about annihilating everything instantly. Then people go back to playing Mesa or Saryn and annihilate everything instantly at the press of a button, instead of jumping through a dozen hoops to have subpar results with Baruuk.
You’re saying Baruuk is designed poorly which I obviously agree with. But you don’t seem to recognise that Desolate Hands is also included in the reasons as to why people don’t play Baruuk.
Its as much of a problem as the other three abilities are. Changing it would not nerf Baruuk at all, but rather buff him and make him that little bit more attractive to the crowd. Then his other abilities would need work to and then he could actually become a meta frame.
At the end of it all, Baruuk needs a good going-over by DE. To be honest he really does feel like a frame that DE hastily threw together and then forgot about, which is the mentality reflected within the community. He’s the new poster-child for being an apprentice at everything but a master of nothing. Trying to cover too many fronts at once just means he has no actual identity of his own and as such is a confused mess of abilities that try and do multiple things at once but end up failing at all of them.
All of Baruuk’s abilities need to be given another look.
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2 hours ago, vFlitz said:
Doesn't mean you should go overboard with it either, as anything past a certain amount will be wasted in 90% of locations in the game.
Investing in a really good CC ability is not going overboard. A lot of our new locations are now large open areas. You can tell with the new Gas City tileset that DE are making the mission areas less tight and more spread out.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:You're exaggerating now. Truth is, in the level range that it works it's probably the best exalted weapon. Clears entire rooms of enemies so fast that it might as well be a nuke.
I’m not exaggerating at all, unlike you. Excalibur’s Exalted Blade has the same range. They both have Exalted weapons that send out energy, only Excals is far better and less clunky.
Serene Storm can clear out trash like no tomorrow, but that can be said of any frame. You are definitely exaggerating there.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:level 80 armored heavies are still no problem
He squeezes by that level and unlike the other user who falsely claims he can “one-shot up to level 100”, he is having a much harder time than say Wukong or Excalibur.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:Doubly so as out of all frames with exalteds, Baruuk is the tankiest one.
This is debatable. Wukong is probably the tankiest Exalted frame right now with the right build.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:Inaros is a poor example anyway, he's popular for his abnormal base stats, not his incredibly bland abilities.
His abilities enhance his stats and yes he is popular for both his stats and abilities. He’s the best tank in the game and a popular choice for people who like that gameplay.
You see absolutely no one complaining about him and he is played frequently by high-level players.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:But high priority targets that take more effort to kill definitely will get disarmed. Take a level 150 nox eximus for example, and you'll see what a difference disarming makes for your experience in fighting one.
I never ever once said that disarming is not a good ability. I am saying Baruuk’s disarm is completely random and annoying compared to Loki’s, which is far far far superior.
That 150 level Nox will usually be surrounded by a number of fodder and your daggers simply do not prioritise enemies based on their type. They are random. So that Nox could get a lot of shots off before one of the daggers actually goes for him, which means you’ll be dead.
Compare Baruuk’s DH to Loki’s RD and there is zero guesses as to which is better.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:but that's an issue with Desert Wind or Warframe's enemy scaling, rather than with Desolate.
Not at all. Like I said; Loki’s Disarm serves him beautifully and is a very good and easy to use ability. It is also a “hit once and forget for a bit” ability which you are apparently not a fan of.
Desolate Hands has issues.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:And just how in the world having it be duration-based would work better? You said it yourself, the daggers only go one at a time.
You seem to have completely misunderstood my post. I am suggesting that the daggers fly off all at once instead of one at a time, once the duration is over. That gives Baruuk a little breathing space to recast the ability again.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:A timer is also more difficult to keep track of, getting distracted once at the wrong moment can easily kill you.
Other frames for more popular than Baruuk like Gara and Mesa have timers on their tank abilities and they somehow manage just fine.
This is a completely hollow argument as well because a players level of concentration is entirely irrelevant to whether or not an ability is good.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:Even on Lull, being prevented from recasting for longer is annoying
The fog will continually put any enemy aware of Baruuk to sleep, so I don’t see why you’d need to recast Lull when one is already out.
I took two builds one of low duration and one of high duration. I found the latter to be more useful in late game personally as the enemies sleep for longer and the field is more useful.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:As for the second option, like I said, that should be added to recasting the ability in its current state, not as replacement to how it works otherwise.
Thats entirely pointless though. Why would you want a slow gradual disarm that takes one second between every individual enemy when the daggers could fly off all at once? It makes zero sense.
You either wait 15 seconds to disarm 15 enemies or you could just disarm them all in one instant. The former is just a headache and not useful at all as by the time you’ve finished disarming those enemies, more will have shown up and are already taking shots at your now less tanky Baruuk.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:You can't just give a frame a permanent 90% DR ability that requires no upkeep and be like 'oh, you can do something more with it, but you really don't have to'.
I have not ever suggested that Baruuk should have a permanent 90% damage reduction. Again you seem yo have completely misunderstood what I am saying. I said his daggers have a timer, which will eventually cause the daggers to fly away from you all at once when the end is reach or when you recast the ability early, as in before the timer runs out.
Also just for the record, you do know that building for extremely low range gives Baruuk exactly what you just described; a permanent 90% damage reduction buff that requires little to no upkeep thanks to the negative range and positive strength.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:It'd also get in the way of the team synergy of giving the daggers to other players.
How would it? Unlike now you’d actually have control over who receives the daggers and when.
This is also another case of Baruuk trying to be another frame. Gara can already cast her Splinter Storm on other players (along with a lot of other things), giving them a full 90% damage reduction and she doesn’t have to wait patiently for each shard of glass to transfer over either. IMO the daggers should not be given to players full stop. Baruuk needs to stop focusing so much on trying to cover every other frames ground and actually focus on making a niche for himself, because he currently has none.
He already has good team synergy by providing a really good CC ability.
2 hours ago, vFlitz said:So really, Desolate Hands is fine they way it works now. Stop trying to fix what ain't broken
It really is not fine the way it is as evidenced in-game. It is clunky, anti-synergetic and is just plain inferior to other abilities of its type. DH suffers from trying to be three abilities at once and consequently is worse than all of them.
Tweaking the ability so as to allow you to keep the daggers until the timer runs out or you recast the ability before it does, upon which the daggers fly off all at the same time as opposed to one at a time, is a far better state than what it is right now.
There is a reason why Baruuk is one the rarest frames to ever see outside of Hydron where people are just levelling him as MR fodder.
He is not in a good place. His kit needs to be looked at. All of it.
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1 hour ago, devildevil21 said:
You believe baruuk is weak, you "supposedly" tried him out in high level missions and found him weak. I tried him out in high level missions and didn't find him weak at all.
There is no debate about his fourth being incredibly weak at high levels, his first being rendered useless by his second and third and his third being annoying to use as well as less effective than other disarm powers. Also there is no “supposed” about my playing him at high level. Its the whole reason I made this thread to begin with because I can see Baruuk’s potential.
1 hour ago, devildevil21 said:He is a jack of all trades master of none, which for some people means "WEAK", for me means "OP" because no matter the situation I'm thrown at, I can resolve it with baruuk.
We’ve done this before; a frame that tries to do everything is a frame that focuses on nothing and ends being inferior to everything its trying to emulate. Oberon used to have this problem before he got tweaked.
Baruuk can resolve low to mid level content alright, as can most frames. High level content is where he struggles and is outclassed easily by frames better designed then he is.
Baruuk is most certainly not OP. Most frames in the game can handle whatever situation is thrown at them and some do it a lot better than others. Baruuk is not part of the latter category. He’s in the category of being an inferior version of things we already have and consequently does not get used.
1 hour ago, devildevil21 said:He is fine the way he is
No he is not. This isn’t something you can say with confidence. He is not a popular or commonly used frame and his abilities were poorly designed as they conflict with each other, are inferior versions of powers we’ve already seen and are just straight up useless at high level in the case of his fourth.
1 hour ago, devildevil21 said:but if you want to overpower the warframe, then go ahead.
The changes proposed would not overpower Baruuk in any way. It would actually fix his anti-synergy and poor mechanics.
1 hour ago, devildevil21 said:Don't forget that OP jacks of all trades master of none will become the fotm classes in every game, which will happen to baruuk if DE decides to increasse his effectiveness.
This is false.
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35 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:
Uhm, I don't really think baruuk is weak. He is just underrated.
He’s not underrated. He is weak in terms of mechanics, certain abilities and synergy. Everything he does other frames can do simply much better and with much less hassle. There’s no illusion of him being some hidden gem. He’s not in a good spot and not very well designed. Pre-rework Wukong is where I’d put him at right now.
35 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:Putting it simple, with this build you can reach 360º with his first skill
Which requires you to be doing nothing in order for it to work and like other users have said; Elude suffers directly as a result of his other abilities which put enemies to sleep and disarm them.
It also doesn’t help against splash damage, which a lot of enemies have.
35 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:you got lots of range to with his 3rd skill to disarm every enemy on the whole world
You are really overselling Desolate Hands. Twelve enemies is hardly what many would call “the whole world” and Loki can disarm a lot more enemies than that, plus he can do it instantly, whereas the daggers only fly off one at a time with a period of at least one second between each dagger. That is not fast at all and enemies will be getting more shots off at you long before they are all disarmed.
DH is also supposed to be one of his primary tank abilities, but it really is not a good choice as the daggers fly off instantly with a high range build.
35 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:you'll have an insane high DPS exalted weapon to add on top of your overloaded build already.
You’re overselling Serene Storm now. It is one of the worst exalted abilities we have in the game. For clearing out trash, its great, but any frame can clear out trash. For mid content, it really really struggles and for high level content it is practically useless against the high armour values.
You can make a case for the weapon being good if you accompany it with an armour stripping weapon, but thats a symptom of how Exalted weapons used to work; forcing you to use certain weapons which you might not like in order to get maximum efficiency out of an ability. There is a reason DE made Exalted weapons their own thing.
Serene Storm cannot hold a candle to Chromatic Blade or Iron Staff.
The weapon has pitifully low status chance and the waves from Serene Storm do not count towards the combo counter. It’s rag-dolling mechanics also work against it as in order to build a combo you have to physically hit the enemy with the fists themselves, but that is impossible as they go flying after the first hit.
35 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:Baruuk is many things, but weak isn't one of them. He's underrated and many people don't even give him a chance to shine.
Speaking as someone who spent a decent while running Baruuk, I can say I have given him a chance to shine and my conclusion is that he is weak right now due his mechanics.
Many others have given him a try and found him lacking. That is why you do not see Baruuk’s common in the star chart, in any sort of request in recruitment chat and high level content. He is simply inferior to a lot of other frames.
35 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:But baruuk is perfect the way he is. 24/7 immunity with sleep and disarm and damage reduction and a really powerful exalted weapon (if built properly). Can't ask for much else, to be trully honest.
He most definitely is not perfect. You are really trying hard to make an awkward frame seem good.
Everything Baruuk can do looks good in writing, but in-game he falls down. Other frames do his job easier and with less hassle and their kits synergise with each other, whereas Baruuk’s does not.
He needs looking at one way or another.
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6 hours ago, vFlitz said:
That's just not true. Elude benefits from range, yes, but as an ability it doesn't contribute anything other than easy restraint dump when there's a high firerate enemy around. Lull's benefit from high range will be limited due to line of sight requirement. Desolate Hands it affects negatively, and changes nothing for Desert Wind.
Lull is probably one of the best CC’s of its types in-game only surpassed by Equinox, as the range is insane. Yes line of site is required, but that doesn’t mean you should not invest in it.
Thats exactly the reason why I suggested Desolate Hands getting tweaked, since building for range means it gets rendered useless.
Elude and Lull are his two main abilities due to the fact they way Baruuk is designed, it actively encourages you to no use his 4 or his 3 really.
7 hours ago, vFlitz said:On the other hand, Strength highly benefits his better abilities which are 3 and 4
Investing in strength for Serene Storm is absolutely pointless as it is one of the worst Exalted weapons we have right now in terms of mechanics and stats. Worthless status chance means that it won’t be stripping armour anytime soon and that is what many players will be encountering in high level missions. Its damage levels are abysmal due to the waves not counting towards the combo counter, so you can’t get a decent stack going nor is it feasible to try and get in close to enemy because the minute you hit the attack button, they go flying. You’ll be lucky if you can get more than two hits on the same enemy unless there are backed up against a wall.
Desolate Hands is really the only ability that benefits from a strength investment, but again, you both have little to no control over it and now your other two abilities are not as useful. Elude might as well be thrown in the trash at that point and Lull won’t have the same CC level (Yes I know CC is no longer the meta due to no real rewarding endless missions or raids, but it is still king in terms of scaling).
7 hours ago, vFlitz said:Without the daggers flying off Desolate Hands would be just an 'activate and forget' ability
There are many frames out there with “activate and forget” abilities and they are still popular, like Inaros. Wukong got his Defy reworked because it was a press and forget ability, but one that was boring and basically the only thing useful in his kit.
You can have this type of ability done right. Like say adding a timer.
7 hours ago, vFlitz said:While I'll admit that the minor tweak of sending out the remaining daggers on ability recast instead of them just vanishing would be welcome, Desolate Hands really doesn't need any changes beyond that.
The daggers automatically flying off is incredibly annoying and does not benefit the player. Before you say “it disarms enemies how is that not beneficial?”, the daggers do not out all at once, they go one at a time. This incredibly slow and not beneficial in a practical sense when you are surrounded by enemies and you have to patiently wait until they are disarmed.
Having the daggers be permanently surrounding the player until either a timer runs out (like Mesa’s Shatter Shield, or Gara’s Splinter Storm) or the player casts the ability early upon which the daggers fly off all at once towards the nearest group of enemies, would far more useful than the current state it is now, in which they just fly off randomly.
Elude is very anti-synergy of course, but I view DH and Serene Storm to be on the same priority level.
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7 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:
Chief among his biggest issues are the many anti-synergies in his kit. Why use elude when you have 4 instances of DR, why use his 3 when you have elude, why does elude make your 3 range double, reducing its effectiveness, why does your three disarm targets, making it harder for elude to dodge projectiles (kinda hard to dodge projectiles when all enemies have melee), why does your 4 reflect projectiles hit, if you want them to hit you to get elude restraint proc, etc.
This is something I mentioned before; his kit is fighting itself.
7 hours ago, vFlitz said:Desolate Hands is fine
I disagree. You have virtually zero control over it beyond the initial casting. Baruuk is normally built for range as that is what the majority of his powers benefit from but that renders the daggers entirely useless as they fly off the minute you cast them. Tweaking the ability so the daggers stay with you until cast again would really make the ability good.
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5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:
Damage reduction stacks. You’re pretty much just asking for a nerf to Baruuks tackiness when what he needs is a buff to his 4s damage capabilities.
Sure in technical terms this would be a nerf to Baruuk's tankiness, however doesn't need anymore than his Desolate Hands to be tanky, if they were tweaked so they don't fly off immediately. Add Adaptation onto him and you truly are laughing. He needs more than just tweaks to his 4s damage. His kit doesn't synergise well at the moment. Like I said; while saying he doesn't need that many ways of reducing damage sounds silly on paper, in practical terms it's not. Look at pre-rework Wukong. He had one of, if not the best tank ability in-game. Yet he was hardly ever played, kind of the position Baruuk is now in. So while tankiness is always a nice thing to see on paper, it doesn't always work out when implemented.
The damage reduction from his passive and his 4 are flimsy to use and just not as good as one ability that gives you flat 90% damage reduction. This is another exmaple of how his kit seems to be fighting itself. Fully draining your Restraint gives you 50% damage and Serene Storm with decent strength gives you 40%, but then when you use his 4 his Restraint goes back up so you loose that DR over time. The daggers are not help either as they keep flying off the moment you cast them.
Like I said; there are other frames who can achieve what Baruuk does only in far less time and doesn't have to almost fight their own kit to do so. Baruuk is a very contradictory frame in the fact that a lot of his kit/mechanics relies on either not using them or you making some of them useless in order to properly get some use out of the others. So its not just his 4 that needs looking at.
2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:here is too much overlap in his kit when it comes to defenses
Exactly. It's not like having abilities based on defence doesn't work, its just that they are designed in such a way that makes them conflict with the others. Like you said, why use his 1 (which requires enemy fire) when you have his 2 which can put enemies to sleep. It's contradictory.
2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:his 3 imo should have about 4 daggers that are defense only that do not fly out to enemies or allies (this same thing need to happen to nova)
I'm more of the mind for freeing up Baruuk's passive so that it can give us a different buff instead of something that Desolate Hands already gives us. It would make Baruuk have a bit more variety.
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Firstly this is not a rework I'm suggesting, just some QoL tweaks.
Baruuk is one of the Warframes you very rarely see running around in random missions, which is a shame, because his concept is very interesting. It's just the implementation of some of his powers is really not that great. Desolate Hands does not synergise well with the rest of his kit as it directly suffers as a result of you building for his first two abilities; Elude and Lull. Right now you either build for range or build for strength with negative range. The former high-range build renders Desolate Hands useless as a player defense power as it means the trigger distance for a dagger to fly off onto and enemy/ally is extremely far, especially when you have Elude active. The latter negative range build in-turn renders Elude and Lull a virtually useless as they require decent range to be effective.
Desert Wind also is not a very good exalted weapon due to the energy waves not counting towards the combo counter. Since it's doubtful Baruuk will get something like Excalibur's Chromatic Blade augment, this means that Desert Wind is just not very good as the ragdoll effect works directly against building a combo counter.
His kit needs tweaks in order to put Baruuk in a decent place, because right now he is another victim of being less useful than a lot of other frames that can do his job and he is rarely used/seen outside of dedicated XP farms like Hydron as a result.
My suggestons for tweaking Desolate Hands and Desert Wind/Serene Storm inparticular would respectively be;
- Tweak DH so that the daggers do not automatically fly off onto enemies/allies and instead make it so that the daggers stay with the player until the ability is cast again, upon which the daggers will then fly off all at once to the nearest group of enemies/allies.
- Tweak Serene Storm so that the waves count towards the combo counter or sacrifice some crit chance to buff up the status, so the waves at least have status build potential. Both options would increase Serene Storms usefullness as an exalted weapon.
I would also add a few tweaks to both his Restraint passive and an extra one to Serene Storm;
- Increase the amount of Restraint lost when using abilities as right now it is too slow even when using all three of his abilities.
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Remove the 50% damage Reduction on Restraint and the 40% damage reduction on Serene Storm. This is to compensate for having more control over the daggers which already give you enough damage reduction at a cap of 90% with nine daggers which is easy to achieve with a small amount of power strength.
- Baruuk simply does not need to have so many different ways of reducing damage. That sounds like a silly thing to say on paper, but in practical terms it really is not. All Baruuk needs is for his Desolate Hands to be tweaked so he has more control over them and you don't need anything else. A flat 90% damage reduction on one ability is good enough. Having too many ways of reducing damage ironically means he ends up being more of a hassle than other frames with the same damage reduction capability.
- Replace the damage reduction on the Restraint passive with a melee attack speed and/or reload speed buff perhaps. This would also go with his theme of becoming more agitated as his Restraint goes down.
These are just some QoL tweaks that would make Baruuk more attractive to use IMO. The concept of pacafist Monk who is actually a John Wick style badass fighter is an awesome one and Baruuk should live up to it, but right now he really doesn't. As the old saying goes; other frames can do his job but a lot better. With these changes, his Desolate Hands would synergise with the rest of his kit, Serene Storm would be a more useful exalted weapon and his Restraint would be able to offer us a different buff as opposed the same one that two (one if these tweaks were implemented) abilities already do.
Baruuk has a lot of potential, but right now he is just another forgotten frame.
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11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:
Hence I explained why.
You gave me your opinion. The fact you try to explain to me what it is I mean by my own words is astounding.
12 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:Says the person misrepresenting the argument?
So its now been reduced to a "No you!" argument has it. What a truly intellectual discussion.
12 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:The complaint is about the players inability to participate, that's it, you can say that it's because of Saryn's playstyle, but that is you deciding to represent the argument in that manner, which is not how it has been presented to us.
Misinterpretation was it. I seem to remember Saryn being specifically mentioned by the OP in both his thread title and the following fluff text in a manner of complaint against the playstyle as he feels it made his own playstyle redundant. He's mentioning Saryn specfically, but his reasons can be applied to a lot of other in the game as well. I don't doubt you saw it differently, since you seem to be seeing everything completely differently to what was written.
15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:They would have a similar complaint if, in a mobile defence, someone turned off the AI and nothing left it's spawn room.
Strawman. The complaint against not being able to participate in a mission because another player is making you feel unneccesary, is not the same thing at all to AI being turned off.
17 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:Oh, we've reached victim blaming have we? How delightful.
This tactic only applies to situations in which the person did not knowingly and purposely place themselves in that situation. Sorite's very cleary show high levels and handicaps, which is more than enough of sign that those missions are difficult and only recommended for those who have decent gear and have played the game for a bit.
I'd advise against trying to use the argumentum ad passiones approach as it is a fallacy. Yes, I am going to say someone who goes into a high-level mission should not be surprised when they find players with appropriate gear there.
22 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:That's the sodding point, they're a new player. How many times must this fact be repeated to you? You don't seem to have grasped this yet, which is exactly what I have been trying to communicate to you. You are seeing this from the perspective of a veteran player, and something within you is completely resistant to attempting otherwise no matter how much you claim to have done.
Again, you're somehow telling me what I feel despite you not knowing me or my gaming experience in the slightest. I've already pointed out to you; this the only time this player has encountered a high level nuke frame, of which there are many. Other times he has been fine. Now that he has encountered end-game, he suddenly wants to stop. I encountered the same thing when I was new, as do all new players. Others do not complain at all about there being players who might have access to builds that make them feel unneccesary to the mission success and do you know what, that is fine. That is what defines a high-level player. They can take the game all on their own if they wished. That is the level you naturally progress to when you play the game. Even other high level players outclass each other in certain missions/scenarios.
The point is that one new player has had his first encounter with a high-level player and he found it boring because he felt like he didn't contribute. This doesn't mean he couldn't contribute, it just meant it wasn't as easy as it would if he was running with say another player at his level. He is specifcally asking for a nerf to Saryn in this thread. You only have to read the title grasp the basic of what is being asked here.
28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:Exactly. And when you can't kill anything then the game has no point, yes?
The thing is; you can. The Saryn was not simply removing enemies before they even spawn. It didn't turn off enemy spawning and just sat there listening to music. Like I keep saying; enemies do not spawn in just one room unless all other players are in that room. The spawn spots do not revolve around the host. If a player moves into another room away from their squad, enemies will spawn there. That is a fact.
So stop acting like this Saryn had the OP's hands completely tied.
31 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:Why is something so powerful allowed to exist when it invalidates the entire point of playing the game?
Because it doesn't. The same way how other room-clearing weapons/frames don't invalidate the game. If that really was the view of DE, then I highly doubt we'd have any AOE killing abilities at all. We'd have single target damage abilities and AOE CC only. Again, you are acting like Saryn is the one frame anyone will ever need and that no one else can match her, which is factually untrue.
33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:Remind me why your experience with the game is the default experience that everyone should adhere to?
If this is not the defintion of hypocrisy/irony then I do not know what is.
34 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:Now I don't have too much experience with MMO's
Then you can't claim that the situation in which low-level players are not as powerful as high-level players does not happen. We're going to end up trading anecdotes all day if this continues.
38 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:I thought it was Saryn's playstyle? How can the entire complaint be about feeling unnecessary, or rather being unable to do anything at all, but actually be about Saryn's playstyle as you love to keep talking about? In order to be about Saryn's playstyle the entire complaint cannot be about being made irrelevant and unable to play.
Because at this moment, the OP came across a high-level Saryn and specifcally pointed her out. The reasons why he viewed her as broken are reasons that can be applied to the vast majorty of frames and weaponry acorss the board. His entire complaint was regarding the end-game Saryn playstyle of wiping enemies clean off the map, making him feel irrelevant. You keep trying to turn my words on me as if I somehow contradicted myself. Stop with the cheap tactics and focus on the actual argument.
42 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:They are not accurate representations of the OP's post.
According to you. Unless you are the OP himself then everything you say is completely your opinion. My examples are not strawmen as I have explained already, because they use the logic the OP is presenting within his thread and initial responses; which is that if there is something that makes other people feel redundant or annoy them in some way, it needs to go. If we follow that line of logic, then nothing in Warframe is viable to be kept the way it is, apart from the already crap weapons/abilities.
45 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:The whole reason the OP felt redundant and were unable to play the game is because the balance of the game is utterly broken.
Have you played any video game outside of Warframe by any chance? Once you reach top level in a game, it naturally becomes a lot easier. This applies to nearly all types of mainstream games. Warframe's core scaling is indeed more skewed than most, but that still doesn't suddenly justify nerfs to frames that can actually counter-balance that. The enemies scale infinitely and only a small amount of frames can keep up with them for a good amount of time and even less indefintely.
Saryn is not a stopper for others gameplay like Limbo was before his rework. She is not impeding anyones ability to kill at all. If we count as "killing them before I can" as impeding others gameplay, then we might as well just make Warframe a singleplayer game.
Also, as much I hate to tell you, but Warframe is at a stage where the scaling will not be fixed. So you can either compalin about that or move on.
55 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:What is the point you are attempting to make here? Because you aren't making one, you're just proving my point. Our builds are too powerful, not just on Saryn, but on a wide variety of frames.
My point is that you can't fix that. Nerfing all of our frames will not fix the issues present at Warframes core. It will just make the game less enjoyable for people who are having fun. Just because you think killing things easily isn't fun doesn't mean everyone else does and you quite clearly do not like that aspect of the game. It's very clear that you are bitter about the state of Warframe and thats okay. Expecting everything to be nerfed as knee-jerk reaction to the fact that we can't do much about it is not only immature, but also not a very smart viewpoint.
58 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:And yet it is.
You are wrong. The "if the shoe was on the other foot" has been used to spur many an action in the real world, point out hypocrisies and bias and is a valid question to ask. It is not illogical or irrational. You simply refusing to answer is similar to that of a slimey politician who doesn't want to answer a difficult question because he knows the answer he will give just prove his double-standard.
If this was a thread on nerfing Wukong simply because one player has been made to feel redunant because a decent Wukong has used the frame effectively, you wouldn't be in the OP's corner, that much is certain.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:You attempted to manipulate me into an argument designed solely to expose bias instead of refuting my points, and when I saw right through it and slapped your wrist for it you have the gall to attack my integrity? How utterly pathetic.
I refuted your pointsand exposed your bias. Considering you're opting for outright insults as well as comical descriptions of you "slapping my wrist" it appears I have hit a nerve, since you know that I'm speaking truth.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:How are you supposed to go to another area when there are several defence maps small enough that Saryn can cover the entire tile with a few well placed Spores? How are you supposed to go to another area in an Exterminate when a Saryn simply enters the room and kills everything before moving onto the next room?
Regarding the first part of this clip, I will say that I have yet to see a map small enough were every single enemy is covered in spores. This type of thinking can also be applied to other nuke frames too.
As for the second part, that can be apllied to literally any weapon or any frame with AOE damage capability in the game, so its redundant.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:It's anything but dishonest. It's how generally how games are designed.
Its not how Warframe is designed. You are trying to act like other game mechanics are relevant in this discussion. They are not, So that's another useless argument.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:As I have said, and explained, numerous times now you are completely failing to see it from the perspective of a new player, no matter how much you claim otherwise.
What you mean is I am failing to adhere to MrRixter's new player experience as being the universal one, which it isn't. Also, again I'll point back to this;
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:Good for you. Remind me why your experience is the default experience that we should all adhere to?
You really did not do well with this one.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:Guess what? New players don't know that.
They will, if they continue to play and not give up after encountering one end-game player whom they will likely not see again ever. I mean that's how my experience was anyway. Oh but I forget; my experience doesn't matter.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:Are you serious right now? Of course it's counter intuitive. When you start a new game and see that there's a point to defend, you jolly well defend that point.
And you don't need to all be shoulder to shoulder in order to do that. I know, a shocking sugestion indeed.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:Probably because you are a long term player playing with other long term players.
Nope. Some new players I encounter don't always stick to me when I run a mission especially if they get bored because I'm killing a lot of enemies, likewise with other high-levels. Only when a waypoint is placed do we all come together. I can keep countering these hollow arguemtns of yours with my own if you'd like.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:It's entirely within expectation to assume that a new player might spend more time sticking close to teammates and objectives.
Never said it wasn't a reasonable assumption that new players would stick to other players. But then that kind of defeats the complaint does it not. For if the new players manage to get over the forbidden, madness-inducing, traumatising knowledge that high-level players are more powerful than new players, then they will learn pretty quickly that you don't have to stick to your objectives, which means you can just have fun by finding enemies to kill, of which there will be many if you bother to look for them.
Also once again, I'd like to remind you that this is all based on random encounters, something that your average stranger has less say over than the next. It's really not such a crime to point out that you cannot expect random people to do what you want. This applies in games and in real life. Want to be completely sure that you don't encounter the type of player you don't like? Build a squad with a two minute trip the recruitment tab. Done.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:Also yes, I regularly find missions in which people stay relatively close together. In fact I'd say that happens quite regularly.
I don't encounter those kind of squads. Shall we trade more anecdotes?
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:Unless you literally mean "close together at all times" which is a fairly dishonest argument.
That's your argument not mine. You act like everyone always sticks together like that and I'm pointing out how that is impossible because we'd be having a lot more complaints if that was the case.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:No, I'm acting like the OP's complaint is valid when seen from the eyes of a new player, instead of deserving of ridicule. Something you're seemingly incapable of doing.
You're acting like the OP's experience is a universal one when it is not. There are not daily threads asking for something to be done about certain frames and weapons by new players, which just disproves this ridiculous viewpoint you insist is the truth.
You are looking at it both as if Rixter is the default reaction for every new player and acting as if any disagreement automaitcally means "you are against new players". You also neglect to factor in the fact that Rixter was in an end-game mission, where you would antrually find end-game players. Please stop being dishonest.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:I'm acting like the balance of the game is pure and utter garbage, and that upon being faced with assumingly their display of it, submitting a complaint about it is an entirely reasonable thing to do.
So you're wasting time compalining about something that everyone has known for years and very little can be done about.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:I'm acting like everyone should have the potential to have an enjoyable experience
They do. Pretending they don't is a lost cause. You have fully stopped caring about the details of Rixter's situation and are instead trying to make it out like new players are so helpless against the tide of the veterans.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:And I'm doing all this because I want you to actually open your eyes and see it from a perspective that isn't your own.
Again this an example of how can't grasp the concept of still not agreeing with someone despite knowing the scenario they are going through. "Seeing from a different perspective" does not mean "Must agree with me".
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:My argument comes from the fact that you're blatantly not seeing it from their point of view. It's honestly that simple.
I.e; I disagree with the OP.
So yes you are arguing that I cannot disagree with Rixter, when I very much can and will.
I have been in his position, I have seen high-level players making a mockery of missions that I used to find hard. I chose to look at it one way, he chose another. That is the simple truth here.
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:You don't, my argument is fine but thank you anyway.
I very clearly do since you are so convicined of your righteousness. Perhaps learning that "trying to put yourself in his shoes" does not equal "agreeing with the opposing party".
1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:You'll have wasted all that time, and no one wants to waste time, right?
I always find it quite funny when someone talks about wasting time after having invested quite a lot of it. Yes I'm wasting my time, just like everyone else is in different ways.
My view is not the same as Rixter's. You need to recognise that. I have seen it from his perspective, as I have been there myself (like we all have) and I disagree with the way he has responded to it. Considering how flimsy your responses have been and how hostile you have become it's clear you simply refuse to acknowledge that someone can understand and still disagree. A pity.
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1 hour ago, HugintheCrow said:
Probably their mary sue oc.
They're probably referring to Natah's brother, who shows up at the end of the New War trailer.
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From all the lore gathered from the Sacrifice and various other quests, the Sentient's motivation seems to be a mix of revenge for the killings during the Old War and to keep us humanoids from "ruining" other worlds and systems.
Ballas mentioned the world ruining aspect specifically during the recordings, saying that the Sentient's knew that humanity would eventually ruin any world it touched. You know the standard "humans are bad" argument.
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22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:
You aren't, and I must stress how important I believe it to be that you do.
I am. You simply telling me I am not does not mean its true. I was a new player once as we all were so I know what that perspective is.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:They aren't complaining about the Saryn's playstyle, necessarily, but rather the complete lack of playstyle on their end.
Which is caused by the Saryn's playstyle plus his own lack of effort. Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent the argument?
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:If you are unable to take part in a mission then you have no playstyle, and that is absolutely worth complaining about.
Again, you can take part in the mission, if you actually put in the effort. Moving away from players you find annoying or better yet, not going into public high-level missions were high-level players use builds that wipe enemies clean in a matter of seconds. You don't get to complain when you put yourself in that situation in the first place. I still can't believe this ridiculous line of thinking is that people think they can somehow complain when going into public matches.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:For some people power is the point of the game, where clicking a button and killing an army is the greatest thrill there is. Please don't be so narrow minded as to believe that this is the only point however, because for others that's utterly boring and goes against the very reason they play video games.
Oh please. That is the whole point of Warframe. The main content you get are weapons and mods which make weapons better. If a player wants to purposely handicap themselves by not using mods on their weapons or frames, they have no right to complain about others who do. The whole point of this game is to kill enemies.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:It is not, because once again you are failing to see this from a new players perspective, it is new player logic and you are completely failing to see it that way. What else are they supposed to think upon seeing a map cleared with a flick of the wrist beyond "whats the point in using anything else"?
I encountered players like that when I first started. I didn't immediately go "Oh this is so boring, whats the point in me doing anything when there are other players who can just kill everything on the map" because that is the logic that will stop you playing most online games with power levels. In most MMO type games, you will always have high-level players who can wipe the map clean. You don't walk into a new online game, and immediately start complaining about the high-level players because you feel like they make the game boring because they are naturally clearing all the content before you can. Bear in mind the OP also said this was one mission that he was bored in. One. And it was a high-level mission.
When I was new and I saw an Excalibur nuking the map with it's old Radial Javelin, I didn't think it made the mission boring, I didn't think "Oh whats the point". Every new players experience is completely different. You also do not see every single new player complaining about this sort of thing. If so the forum would be flooded with this kind of rubbish.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:The entire game revolves around killing things, DPS is obviously king, so if you're new and see a DPS frame that DPS's so hard that no one else gets to play, you're obviously going to think "what's the point in using anything else?".
No you're not because Saryn is not the be-all-end-all damage frame and one would know that had they just continued playing the game and interacting with the community. This is why the OP is not going to have a very good time if this is the first instance he encounters something that is end-game level. Anything that has room-clearing potential - which a lot of frames/weapons have - will potentially make him feel redundant, in which case what do we do? A lot of frames can be built to nuke entire maps.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:Hell, I wouldn't blame them for thinking, "what's the point in me even being here?", which evidently they did, hence the cup of tea.
Again, this can apply to any new player who encounters a high-level player with appropriate gear who has been playing for years. Not every new player thinks this way and just because I disagree with the OP doesn't suddenly mean I have never been a new player myself. We were all new once.
That is why I referenced other weapons, because they count just as much as a powerful frame does. Should we listen to every new player who says that they got bored because an end-game player in an end-game mission was making them feel redundant?
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:Are strawmen, as they are complaints about item 'x' being better than their newbie item 'y'.
No it wasn't. The OP's entire complaint centres around being made to feel uneccesary. As you already said, this can apply to any frame/weapon thats been properly modded and leveled. They were not strawmen as just pointed that out in a different way. The whole reason OP feels redundant, is because he encountered someone who clearly has an end-game level set-up which does not need the help of other players. But that was because of their mods. If OP encountered a Saryn who was the exact same level as him in the game and didn't have access to end-game resources/mods, that Saryn would not be able to do as much as the end-game version. Likewise if he encountered a high-level Saryn with high-level mods and builds - and actually tried to move away from the other player - I doubt he'd have trouble contributing to the mission at all.
It was also not a strawman as your capability to kill things is the main contribution you feel to a mission. If the OP just goes around seeing all these weapons and frames that can kill things quicker than he can, thus not giving him a sense of purpose in the mission, then what's to stop him from doing exactly what I said; asking for more nerfs.
Also, did you not forget the "whats the point in using anything else" complaint, which is clearly referencing how he thinks one item is indeed better than the "newbie" gear he currently has.
Stop trying to twist my argument into something its not.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:That is not the argument that the OP has presented, as a reminder the OP's argument is "Item 'x' invalidated my role in the mission by leaving me nothing to do, this is a bad thing",
Yes and that was because OP felt invalidated because he felt 'item x' was indeed better than what he currently had. The "whats the point in using anything else" complaint also shows that. You are trying to act like I fabricted stuff he wasn't saying when it very clearly was. Any properly modded item in the game is better than what he currently has and thus has the potential to make him feel invalidated, since they can clear mobs quite easily.
He is compaining that he has nothing to do. So if a max range Equinox comes running through, that will also have the same result. Same with a Mesa, an Excalibur, a max range staff Wukong, an Ember and really any frame/weapon with instantaneous room clearing potential.
That is the argument OP has presented. "If it invalidates me, it should have something done about it."
You are the one fabricting arguments here, by acting like what I said was not what the OP was saying at all.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:I'll wait until there's an actual thread about Wukong's staff being overpowered and ruining the game for someone before commenting on such a scenario.
Exactly the reponse I expected.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:That just won't fly, and I strongly suggest you rethink such tactics in the future.
Well it worked as you simply just refused to answer the question because it's hypothetical, which is not a valid dismissal in real life and in the game. It just shows you have little integrity.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:You're suggesting that a player who is new to the game should know better than to actually play the objective, and should, in the interest of actually enjoying themself, run away from whatever objective they actually have to perform?
If the objective is killing, which it always is; yes. If a player is annoying you, move to another room. If the OP feels invalidated because he isn't contributing by killing things, then go to another area of the map and make enemies spawn there. How is this such an incredibly hard (and apparantly abhorrent) concept to grasp? If your objective involves defence, then simply let the Saryn handle one area while you go to another. If the objective is survival, go to another area of the map. If the objective is exterminate etc etc etc.
Yet act like players absolutely must stick together and missions/objectives can only be completed that way. This is completely dishonest way of arguing, as the objective does not have to be sacrificed in order to have fun. Please do not try and spin that kind of tale because it just doesn't apply.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:The idea that you have to actually run away from your teammates in order to actually do anything is completely counter intuitive to anyone joining the game and believing it's a co-operative shooter.
Just because you put distance between you and your random teamates that you do not and never will know, doesn't suddenly mean it's counter-intuitive. It's still a co-op shooter, even if you are not playing in the exact same vicinity. If you just sit there picking your nose and making cups of tea while the others do everything for you then you have nothing to complain about. You won't find any random squad in this game where all players are in the same area in close proximity at all times. It just does not happen. Players will go off and do their own thing regardless of whether you have room-cleaning gear or not. Just because you are in a seperate room from your teamates does not suddenly mean it's counter-intuitive. A lot of people like to rush ahead and kill everything before everyone else does. Yes that has happened to me, both recent and when I was new. I never called for a nerf to whatever gear that player was using to wipe the enemies from existence as there was always still a chance for me to contribute to the mission myself.
I still get really annoyed when I find an Ash in my missions and do my absolute best to avoid him while still in the mission, does that suddenly mean the game is counter-intuitive? Of course not.
You act like everyone in this game is supposed to be 100% satisfied in their own unique ways and players can never find annoyance in one-another ever, which is universally impossible. Even if everyone had the exact same gear from the moment they start till the moment they finish, you would still find someone with something to complain about. It's the exact same with any MMO type game. You will not find a game in which players work together 100% of time and are completely content with each other. Please don't try and tell that you have not once ever found yourself moving away from a certain player in your squad because you find them irratating.
22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:I'm strongly strongly suggesting you reevaluate how you're perceiving this, because your response shows that you're seeing it 100% from the eyes of a veteran player, not a new player.
I would also offer some counter-advice; remember that just because someone disagree's does not suddenly mean that they have not been in the same position as others. Just because I do not agree with you or the OP doesn't suddenly mean I am not seeing from their perspective. MrRixter does not set the criteria of "the new player viewpoint". I was in his position years ago, I only looked at and went about it in a different way. I never complained, I never asked for nerfs.
I do not have to agree with OP in order to be counted as "seeing it from a new players perspective". He is not me and I have a completely different personality/viewpoint to him both now and back when I was a new player. I have looked at how he views it and I say it is incredibly closed-minded, lazy and selfish.
Never thought I'd have to tell you that you might need to rethink your arguments.
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1 hour ago, Corvid said:
When people talk cover systems, they are usually
Again you're arguing with opinions, not facts. Just because something is mentioned more commonly than something else, does not mean the less common example does not fit into the same category. Cover mechanics are defined as having some kind of interaction between the cover and the avater. This does not mean you 100% must have your back velcroed to a chest-high wall for it be counted.
COD game's allow you to lean and when in certain postions, aiming when near the edge of a wall will automatically make you stand up and not aiming down ironsights will move behind the cover again. That counts. Gears of War was not the first to have cover mechanics and nor did it invalidate different iterations of it. Soldier of Fortune for example had leaning cover system.
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37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:
You're completely and utterly failing to see it from the point of view of the other player, and it's absolutely impossible to have a reasoned discussion until you can.
I am seeing from their perspective. This is a new player, who has seen a player who has clearly been playing longer than them and has access to mods/resources they do not have yet and is actively making use of them and they do not like it because they find it makes the mission boring. Bear in mind this is one mission and the only mission they have found boring in their opinion. I am not being selfish by pointing out how you can't just expect people to stop using the gear they have worked hard to make, simply because you find it boring. The thing that makes this post extra rich is that MrRixter was in a Sortie at the time he encountered this Saryn.
37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:To them it's not, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her."
It's instead, "You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as boring as her."
And that somehow isn't the most selfish thing you have ever heard? Just because someone finds a certain playstyle boring, doesn't suddenly give them the right to demand a nerf. And yes he is failing to see the point in being powerful as that is the kind of build you can get once you reach the level of veteran.
37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:From this new players perspective, what is the point in getting a support frame like Trinity when Saryn nukes everything without support? What is the point in getting a tanky frame like Chroma when Saryn nukes everything, there's nothing to shoot you?
If you or indeed the OP truly think like that, then it's pretty laughable. By this logic, why is everyone not using Saryn? Why isn't everyone not using Inaros? I mean if all you need is either of those two, then why are people not running around with them all the time. That is the true signal that something is broken. You play certain frames because you find them fun, it's not just about efficiency, although that is a big part.
The point is to get mods to make your frame of choice, just as viable as those two and yes, there are frames who can rival Saryn. Both in the fact they cost less to make a massive nuke build and because they in some cases like Equinox can be far easier to use as they don't even require spamming. Hit one button and there you go. With the right build, certain frames can wipe the floor with enemies. Saryn is not unique in that regard at all.
37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:They didn't say that they were bored because other things kill better, that's standard fare for a video game, they were bored because something (Saryn) killed everything.
And so can a lot of other frames/weapons in the hands of players who know what they are doing. So it's not a misrepresentation of their argument at all, which is what you are trying to claim. A Mesa in the right hands can kill everything. An Equinox in the right hands can kill everything. An Excalibur in the right hands can kill everything. A lot of frames in this game have the potential to wipe maps clean. The fact this player immediately labels Saryn as OP clearly shows that he will not be having a very good time in the long run.
So my examples do count and are valid. Calling them a "Straw-man" is dishonest.
37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:I killed nothing throughout the entire mission because someone killed everything before I could. I was so bored I got up and made myself a cup of tea.
And like I said, there are plenty of frames and weapons that can do what Saryn does but in different flavours. Say for example, if MrRixter was in a mission with Equinox. He'd still likely complain because she kills everything with her Maim, if not initially, then with her AOE blast. Or perhaps your own Monkey. What if he gets annoyed by how much range Primal Fury has and how much damage it can do? You're zipping around killing things and he's just grumbling. If this was a post about Wukong, I have no doubt you'd not be on the OP's side. And before you say "It's not about Wukong though, it's Saryn" bear in mind that exposes your bias/hypocrisy. You could also be killing enemies before he can with Wukong.
Also, there are always some enemies that spawn in rooms. If you're just sitting there, letting other players kill everything without doing much effort to find some yourself in another part of the map, then you have little ground to stand on. Also, for the record I will remind you that OP went into a Sortie somehow expecting not to encounter high-level players.
37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:No new player goes into a mission with the expectation to actually not be able to play the mission.
You act like Saryn press one button and every enemy everywhere simply dies. You do know that moving to another room makes enemies spawn in said room, so there is always enemies avaliable. They don't just spawn in one location. If the Saryn follows MrRixter into different rooms, then that still doesn't justify a nerf as again; plenty of other frames have that capability as well.
The ironic thing you are making a very strong case against getting powerful mods or maxing out your builds at all since there is no point if new players come in and are not happy with them, since they have the capability to nuke enemies.
24 minutes ago, Cubewano said:Coming into a game and expecting to be able to actually play is about as far from arrogance as one can get. This isn't some vanity piece about "how dare someone be stronger than me", it's a bout a player literally going into a piece of content and being completely cut off being actually able to play due to another player.
The thing is, he isn't. He can easily go into another room and make enemies spawn there, or he can go solo or put together a squad from recruitment, both of which take little to no time at all. Still can't believe people don't know those options exist. If you want to play with randoms, then you simply have to be prepared to roll the dice.
24 minutes ago, Cubewano said:It's honestly awful you are trying to look down on someone for wanting something as basic as being able to actually play the game they are here to play.
I'm looking down on him because it's a very selfish post that boils down to "I'm really bored because these veterans are using their maxed builds, they should be nerfed". There are plenty of ways he can enjoy the game both with a Saryn and without one. Please see to the options I listed above.
Veterans shouldn't have to suffer because new players find that their maxed out builds make a mission boring for them, when there are plenty of workarounds for it. MrRixter is going to have an incredibly hard time when he discovers all the other nuke frames and one-shot, max range weapons.
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2 minutes ago, Corvid said:
(aside from a soft "if you're standing at the edge of a wall and aim, your character will lean out from it" system, which I personally don't count.).
That counts as a cover system by the standards book. If you want to argue, don't use your personal opinions.
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Because this isn't COD.
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Just now, Ver1dian said:
Yep, Saryn can do that. Another 30 or so frames can also do that. Unlike others she is very expensive to get to that point.
Why should Saryn take a hit because some vet didn't care for some newbie's feelings?
I know I wouldn't either on my Nth sortie and I'd still wipe out the map with anything from Inaros with PK zaw to Discharge Volt, so should everything be nerfed?
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Rixter's complaint would hold no weight even if he was reffering to the normal star-chart level missions, but the thing that makes it worth even less is that he very clearly went into a Sortie and somehow didn't expect high-level players to be there or something.
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44 minutes ago, (PS4)Bigboodyjuudy said:
How is she balanced when you have players refusing to play with a Saryn because she nukes everything on the map? Whats your definition of balanced exactly?
You have players refusing to play with others for a variety of reasons. Should we be considering all of them in that case? For example, someone who still insists on leaving a mission when Limbo pops in, evne after it's shown that he actually plays with other people in mind?
Or should we consider those who refuse to play with Equinox because her Maim wipes everything off the map?
Or those those who refuse to play with players who refuse to play with others who use kitguns because they are incredibly powerful and can cut through most enemies like butter?
Or those who refuse to run with a Mesa because her guns make short work of enemies too?
Or new players who enter missions where players with high-level gear - which they have more than likely spent ages building and getting mods for - hang out and the proceed to complain about being bored because the high-level players are unsurprisingly taking on high-level content easier than they are, like the OP is doing?
You see how this sort of thinking is awful and slippery slope? You will never ever satisfy everyone. People will have gripes whatever the reason. Some are genuine, but most are not. This thread is an example of the latter. Should we listen to the OP? I really do not think so.
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On 2019-08-02 at 4:13 PM, MrRixter said:
I'm a fairly new player and today I got matched with a Saryn at my sortie. It was the first time that I felt bored in the game. There was nothing for me to do, everything was dying instantly all over the map so I just went afk and made a cup of tea. Whats the point of me trying to improve my frames and get all the mods, arcanes etc, when a frame exists which can nuke the whole map with no effort at all? I apologise if I'm wrong but from what I saw was a Saryn barely even moving.
I feel quite deflated right now and confused on how something so broken is allowed to exist in the game. Bare in my mind I'm quite new so I'm not aware if there are other broken frames, its just this Saryn was the first one I saw.
You do realise what this post sounds like?
"I'm new and I've just seen a player in one mission who has been playing longer than me and thus is more powerful. But I don't really like that. Nerf it."
That's honestly what your post sounds like. I'm sorry but coming into a game and expecting players who have been playing before you to somehow come back down to your level is not only arrogant, but also very selfish.
The part where you say "whats the point" is the part that I'm struggling with the most. The point is right in front of you; Saryn. You get the mods and arcances so you can one day be as powerful as her. That's the whole point of playing the game. I don't know where you have come from before, but that is how Warframe works. Mods make you extremely powerful and they always have done. The fact you don't see that and instead want to just nerf Saryn because you got bored in one mission and can't see how cool it would be to work towards that Saryn's power level is worrying.
It would only be broken if Saryn was like that from the get-go, but she isn't. And yes, considering your definition of broken, there are plenty of frames/guns out there that would qualify for that label in your eyes.
I mean could you imagine if this is the attitude all new players had when they saw something powerful?
"Wow that gun kills loads of enemies in one shot, but my unmodded MK-Braton can't even kill one in good time. That makes me bored. Nerf it"
"Wow that polearm can sepreate an entire platoon from their bottom halves while my unmodded Skana can't even open a tin-can. I'm bored again. Nerf it."
This is not a good post. At all.
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7 minutes ago, DorkL0rd said:
He has a sort of stupid name, but it's not THAT bad, and he'd played for 2 years without anybody complaining about it. It's a gray area whether it's appropriate or not
Sounds like his name definitely is bad, given how you clearly don't want to mention it. I agree he should be given a chance to change it though. If he did get a chance in the past but refused, well then there isn't much you can do.
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2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:
We don't have Halberds in the game, do we? Also:
We do not have halberds no. Those would be cool to see as well. I don't think DE could at lightsaber-like weapon into the game. Disney isn't sharing any of that pie with anyone but Egregious Arsehats sadly.
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Warframe has a huge variety of weapon types. Probably one of the most varied I have ever personally seen. Yet there are still more weapons that could be added. What weapon types are not currently present in the game that you want added in and why?
The two at the top of my list;
- Chakrams - Basically dual glaives in many ways. If anyone has every played the hidden gem Kingdoms of Amalur, you'll know how awesome these weapons can be. I think they would look/play amazing in Warframe too.
- Dual Greatswords - Ever since Dark Souls 3, I've wanted dual greatswords in Warframe. Wielding two Galatine-sized swords at the same time would be awesome.
Who is currently considered the worst Warframe in the game?
in General Discussion
Posted
Baruuk. He's a frame that doesn't really have an identity of his own, as he's too busy trying to copy everyone else, but failing. His abilities feel like they were designed by four people who never had any contact with each other, as it is simply the worst case of anti-synergy in the game. I mean your first ability is about dodging bullets, but your next two can respectively put enemies to sleep and disarm them. What is the point?
His mechanics are clunky, his Exalted weapon is terrible and he's just an inferior version of a load of different frames. Another example of "student of all, master of none" type of warframe.