[(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback]

Reflection and Mortal Conduct are both still channeling mods.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

saying earned only is both implying that trading is not going to be involved and confirming. What I meant was DE IMPLIED that ephemera would be only obtainable through non currency means. Earning them. that's earning them. Flat out buying is not earning.

Do not bend my words when my point is clear.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

I know about duplicate ephemera, someone already brought that up. If an ephemera is meant to be worn by those who earned it and said they they are EARNED ONLY then having some plat to purchase that ephemera is enough to earn such a thing. Don't make it sound like I don't think about players like that, I have friends that play the game that are in that exact situation, I also have ones who have several.

1 hour ago, HeartPurity said:

it is astonishing how people can be so jealous and selfish, you only got 1 ephemera but how about some who got duplicate ephemeras? If I got no use over a duplicate one, why dont sell it to others who have hunted down 30 lich but yet to get a single ephemera? Think wide. 

Jealousy, yes I have that, I'm admitting to that. Selfish? No. This has nothing to do with me being selfish this is about DE lying and me wanting them to hold true to their word.

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

I brought up grendel missions because they did require thought, and we're rewarded without RNG. 

They were not rewarding, they gave you the part after an excruciating amount of time with no fun involved. Everything you did in the game had no impact in the game for that mission. If you consider that a challenge, then you're insane because all that farming you did making the perfect build means nothing. arcanes, operator, focus, mods, all gone. Again though not related so I'm stopping there. Stop bringing up a mission to acquire a warframe in a discussion about ephemera trading. I see where you're going with it, and you can say it without having to rope in grendel's missions.

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

Let's not forget it is a cosmetic.  This is a perfect place for trade / platinum to come into play.

DE did the right thing and your getting mad!  I can't believe the nerve of people.  This has zero effect on your game, nothing, except maybe being able to sell a duplicate since you were very lucky to get one to begin with.  

Cosmetic yes, perfect for plat yes, but DE implied this wouldn't be paid and I want to hold them to that. If their word means nothing on an official stream to deliver information, why would I put my trust in anything they say ever during said streams. If DE never said they would be earnable only, we wouldn't be having this conversation because I wouldn't have posted this.

DE did not do the right thing, unless you consider doubling back on promises the right thing. Yes, this is a free to play game... A free to play game with prime access, tennogen, contests, normal microtransactions, and more. DE does not need the extra money and I certainly don't feel like they deserve it as of late. I would be more lenient if the system was more polished and full but the lich update was in the works for 2 years and they just tagged another cosmetic AFTER monetizing a massive bundle in the market and dropping Melee 3.0 with forma galore. I refuse to believe DE needed more financial gain.

Also yes, these do have an affect on gameplay. Players farm for it, that's an effect. Players will use it on warframes and get to look better, something else. The more value that ephemera has the more often they will use it and the more they appreciate the fashion they have made which keeps them in the game longer and makes for a happier player. Cosmetic have affects on gameplay, but it takes place in the mind, not on the screen.

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

IF emphermas were awarded based on skill or some sort of challenge / accomplishment, then I agree don't trade.  Since it is blind luck, DE did the right thing to reduce grind. 

   At least I can half agree with you on this, I did not make this clear with the original post and that's on me, i'm sorry. I'd much rather the RNG be taken out and as players have suggested make it guaranteed after a set amount of lich or challenges. I'm all for that because it gives the feeling of progression and you can see yourself getting closer to that goal. But even if it is luck I do not want them to be traded because DE said they were earned only and I doubt DE will ever listen to that feedback even if it's fair and justified. The challenge at present is testing your patience and luck which is still a challenge however dumb and unfair lady luck is.
   They have just allowed players who have done nothing to be on the same level as players who killed dozens of lich. Yeah, players that kill dozens without one ephemera are deserving of this trade mechanic. It's technically deserved but again still not earned. It's bought. Another issue is the option for trading this ephemera is open to ALL PLAYERS, including those who don't deserve it and more than likely it will go to whoever is willing to pay the higher price, and that will be the players that dislike grinding and chances are those players haven't killed one or two lich.
   Blind luck or not it still fits, however twisted that fit is, the definition of earned to an extent because you obtain it through grinding OR luck. Not money. I was not 100% pleased with how the ephemeral rewards were handled before. Just like how some players still prefer keys to relics and how they enjoyed the dozens of primes and skill over higher chances for 1 prime. I prefer the old non tradeable ephemera to what we have now which just adds to trade chat's virulent tendencies.

   I once farmed a nova prime system for 6 months in the derelect, I am one such person who understands what a cruel mistress lady luck is. Yet all throughout those 6 months I did not give up. I farmed and farmed and eventually I got my hands on that thing. Not once did I complain to DE or post on the forums about how dumb the drop rates were because it was a common drop. Why would I complain, I had bad luck and was too stubborn to go to trade chat. Pride bound me to farming that item, so yes I recognize more than most some items are a pain in the rear to grind out due to RNG. Yet I'd take RNG achievements over trading any day of the week. This is my opinion, nobody has to agree and nobody has to care but this is my view and no matter how much someone laughs at me, slanders me,

1 hour ago, Educated_Beast said:

Shame on you for being hateful. 

shames me,

1 hour ago, HeartPurity said:

it is astonishing how people can be so jealous and selfish

calls me sinful and selfish,

10 hours ago, Kenmei said:

To me it looks like you are a bit jealous and selfish, you want these to be only for yourself.

misunderstands me and pushes me down,

On 2019-11-14 at 7:16 PM, peterc3 said:

You might want to take another look at what you wrote, because the judgement is pretty apparent.

or misunderstand and or lies about me

It does not reduce the validity of my statement and it wont stop me from posting about what I think and believe in. DE lied and went back on their word and I, a player, am unhappy with that. I may be one person but I want to have my say in the game. And nobody is going to hold me down from that. Unless I get strikes for breaking the rules, then I deserve it.

I wont comment again on these posts nor do I intend to make myself look like a saint and the victim here. Hell I openly admitted I am jealous and envious of players having something I do not. I am simply stating the things stated above are pointless. They do not add to the conversation and are there purely to degrade me and make you feel better. You can do that because I expected stuff like this, I said that in my original post. So again, I won't comment again, feel free to continue but it will get you nowhere.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

1 minute ago, Xaero said:

Still, isn't it going back on their words about ephemeras?

yes it is, but those are prime accessories which have a pass. Trying to find a flaw in someones argument when it's obviously not meant to be included doesn't do anything for you. I shouldn't have to clarify why certain ephemera are not included in the argument.

It's either you're messing with me, or are incredibly dense and I'm inclined to pick option one.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

 

3 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Then what about Corposant Prime Ephemera?

2 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

If were going to talk about the prime, lotus, fae, or easter ephemera these are special occasional ephemera. You should get that by just looking at them. I am not speaking about those ephemera being a challenge, those were never made or meant to feel like you earned them. They are purely for enjoyment and seasonal fun like candy canes, mustaches, and antlers.

these ephemera aren't included. You don't earn them you pay for them or they're just outright given. If I said "corposant ephemera should be able to be earned" then i'd be dumb. I might as well be saying all prime accessories should be able to be earned in game which would horrible for DE. When I'm talking about ephemera being earnable, ones for special occasions do not count becuase they're either for fun or to promote an event. Every company does this and it's nothing new and I've got no issues with that.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

6 minutes ago, Xaero said:

They've failed at that point. Almost all ephemeras are earned by rng and luck, you can get an ephemera on your first try or never get it at all.

   Whether they failed or not at making them trophies or not does not mean they can go back on what they said they would do with it. And that's not correct. Stalker took me a year, I got him, it took me days to get the charge ephemera to spawn, other ephemeras are the same. You can get them if you don't give up.

12 minutes ago, Kenmei said:

I am fine with everything you're saying except one thing: If there are some people that don't 'feel the excitement of getting something (they) want', why are you so adamant of them being unable to get that by other means, like trading?

   I am not against there being a secondary option, actually didn't state that, so sorry that's my fault. Sorry if I gave you the wrong idea. As an example, poor but an example, say DE gave you currency for killing or converting a lich. Use that currency to get an ephemera oh your choice, i'd be fine with that. But simply handing players a lich with an ephemera attached like a seal to mail, that's not right. I welcome secondary options to get what you want, systems like that token idea give the idea of progression and that's what DE did with vitus essence and the blood ephemera. You could watch yourself climb to get that ephemera instead of praying and hoping. Or this.

1 hour ago, Nichivo said:

In fact they should set a number of ESO runs for someone and flat out give them the Ephemera after they hit the required number. I'm generous 100 would be my idea, but even 500 would be better than, scratching off a scratch ticket ever 20 minutes 1200 plus times and hoping for a RNG lottery win.

   These options are perfectly fine as long as players actually obtain the ephemera without a shortcut involving platinum containing some grinding to get it.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

2 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I am still going to disagree, because as we all know, (Sheer Luck and Earned do not equate.) Simply none of them have been earned except Naberus, and Bleeding from the Arbiters.

That's fine, just a mismatch of what were defining the word "earned" to mean in this context. If i were to use the actual term of earned, i'd say you're right that those are the only ones that fit what you're making earned out to be.

Again, not saying you're wrong, you're right. Depending on the context of "earned" means we are both right and both wrong. one more in the traditional sense and one in the more literal sense.

2 minutes ago, Kenmei said:

Man, what is wrong with you?

Grendel's missions were great NO

I did those missions solo, and I had to think of what to bring to the mission and also to play cautiously so I wouldn't waste my revives. The fact that the grendel parts are a mission end reward and not rng also made it feel great, because you know you did something good and got rewarded for it. Were those missions near impossible? Not really, a lot of people have suggested a lot of builds that make it somewhat easy, but they at least were challenging enough.

I am not going to speak about grendel missions here. if you want to see my reasons for despising those missions go to watch brozimes stream. or go to feedback and find my post. Either way you'll get the point.

3 minutes ago, Kenmei said:

To me it looks like you are a bit jealous and selfish, you want these to be only for yourself.

To you yes, that doesn't mean you're right. I can definitely be jealous but I am not selfish in wanting these only for myself. I want DE to keep true to their word and I take issue with the option to buy something when it should be earned. I don't care if DE says one thing then does another, becuase they kept true to it being earned *again depending on what Rebecca's context was* up until now. This change would have been recent and there was no reason to change it.

5 minutes ago, Kenmei said:

These new lich ephemeras now have a 10% spawn rate. Are they challenging to get? Not in the slightest, it's pure luck.

You get Corposant Ephemera by buying it with real money. Is it a challenge? Is it rewarding? I don't know man...

If were going to talk about the prime, lotus, fae, or easter ephemera these are special occasional ephemera. You should get that by just looking at them. I am not speaking about those ephemera being a challenge, those were never made or meant to feel like you earned them. They are purely for enjoyment and seasonal fun like candy canes, mustaches, and antlers.Challenging yes, because it tests your patience and determination and/or your luck. Earning them through that is the challenge.

if you don't feel the excitement of getting something you want, then that's a you thing. Plenty of grind players live for that excitement. It's no tyreals might, and I don't get this excited over an ephemera but it should get the point across.

Spoiler

 

 

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

2 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

I completely disagree with you out of principal. With the exception of the Halloween Bat Ephemera, none of them have been a challenge or earned. Even Blazing Step is nothing but raw luck. It took me over 1200 runs to get Blazing Step. I took one of my sons with me, on his first ESO run ever, and he got Blazing Step on that run. He did not earn Blazing Step, and neither did I. If they want to first fix the bad RNG mechanic that equates to blind luck for ephemera, only then would I agree. 

In fact they should set a number of ESO runs for someone and flat out give them the Ephemera after they hit the required number. I'm generous 100 would be my idea, but even 500 would be better than, scratching off a scratch ticket ever 20 minutes 1200 plus times and hoping for a RNG lottery win.

Nope unless they get rid of RNG somehow equating to something earned, or a challenge. Having them be traded is less offensive, even though I don't agree with most things being traded anyway(mainly rivens). 

   I'm not oblivious to people's struggles getting certain items, I myself have been subject to stupid drop rates and farmed 6 months straight just praying for an item which was meant to be common. RNG is bitter sweet but if DE switched ephemera to being like you said a set number i'd be elated with that change. But I don't say anything on it because I doubt they'd ever consider that. But the issue here is the ability to trade ephemera to players when DE said they are earned only. They are no longer earned only and even within ESO, however twisted that drop rate and sheer chance may be, is earned and not bought.

   By earned I mean obtained through grinding or luck, or in your suggestion a reward, not bought with a premium currency and I believe that's what DE Rebecca meant at the time when she said earned only. Unobtainable through premium currency, which is not what we have now.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

3 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

You didn't accomplish some great feat.  You are an entitled cry baby.  Go find a safe spot and cry away.  

This has nothing to do with entitlement and i try to make that exceptionally clear. 

15 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

   I'm really sorry to say this, it's going to sound extremely biased as it's coming from someone with a vengeful ephemera already. I know that reduces my credibility but I need to put that out there for honesty sake.

 

13 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

I am not saying they are unworthy, I said luck or grind and either way they earn it. I am of course jealous of these people, envious even but i will not take that from them. One of my friends even got his first try. I am not degrading them in any way...

If they somehow happen across an ephemera, fantastic for them. I'm happy for them, round of applause. They earned it, literally. They played the chance and got an ephemera. I have NEVER said that any MR 2 players with smoking body ephemera don't deserve that ephemera. it's RNG. I may be envious, and jealous, and want to strangle the devs, but that's just it. I was jealous of someone having something I did not, and it kept me farming stalker until I just so recently procured one for myself last week. That took a year and it felt great

   If I were entitled, I wouldn't like players like said MR 2 players running around with an ephemera I don't have and i'd complain about that. But instead I'm complaining that DE is going back on their word, and has made these cosmetics, which they said would be earned only, can be sold and traded for premium currency. If they never said they would be Earned Only, I wouldn't be complaining right now.

8 minutes ago, Educated_Beast said:

Going through grendal mission was something worthy of earning a unique cosmetic. 

Why exactly are you roping grendel's missions into this? That has nothing to do with ephemera trading and I'm well aware already how terrible those missions are.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

5 hours ago, NeutuoS said:

Blazing Step Ephemera: 1.01% drop chance on rotation C <- RNG
Lich Ephemera: 10% <- RNG

And as everyone knows RNG reward:
Player A can get it 1st try
Player B can try 1.000 times and still do not get it

What do you admire in RNG?

   I do not admire the RNG itself, i'm talking about the reward. It was hard for some players to get thus is holds value. I'm well aware just how harsh RNG can be on players and I'm still saying I'd rather have them set back even if it punishes me, a player who used to play the lich system and will now ignore it because of these trading changes.

   I saw a player with the trickster ephemera shortly after release and I thought man I want that item it looks awesome and it'd be hard to get. I'm going to farm that after I get the flame ephemera. Now I won't care to ever get it because it lost all the weight that ephemera held. I wont hold it in high regard because they could have just skipped the grind.

5 hours ago, magnakoji said:

They gave away an ephemera simply for watching a stream. There never was any real value to them other than what you yourself perceive them to have. They are cosmetics and ultimately mean nothing.

The new changes with the lich are good because it allows people to work together for those items, it becomes cooperative, which is what the game has been about from the beginning.

   I'm still slightly tired from waking up, so I'm drawing a blank on the stream. If you're talking about the tennocon ephemera that doesn't count. Even if you're talking about another stream that doesn't matter too much because it's not like I'm going to get upset someone gets a prime access for watching. or platinum. That doesn't mean the ephemera were open to trade with other players. Maybe these meant nothing to you but they were something to some players and so did DE's word. Why shouldn't I expect a company to keep their word.

   The new lich changes maybe are good at face value, sure they "allow more players to have access to them" but in reality they were no less obtainable than any other ephemera in the game. If you farmed for it, you would get it eventually get it. Now that grind can be overshadowed with plat in mere moments and your trophy means nothing.
   Saying players working together to gain these new ephemera is 100% false, it's the exact opposite. What's cooperative about 1 player ignoring a system DE want's played, and another exploiting that players laziness for plat. The fact that trade is involved? If this were true many other items would be open for trade like stalkers weapons. There are reasons why trade isn't allowed on some items, it's because it lets players skip the grind themselves.
   Stalker's ephemera is at 5% chance yet DE kept it there. His is much harder to get than any vengeful ephemera so by your logic his should also have a higher drop chance and be tradeable to "make it more available" to more players who just don't care to grind in a grinding game.

   Lastly DE said this cosmetic would be earned only and they went back on that, why are you ignoring that. Thus I thought ephemera were a reward to go after if you wanted them because it's not like those with ephemera could be shown up by a player with $100. These were meant to be rare rewards of skill or luck and that was the appeal of it for me and some other players. Now DE is letting players sell them for plat when they didn't need to.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

For you.

Many, many, many, other people don't derive their enjoyment of things based on how many other people are excluded from said thing. You aren't having your super exclusive time with the ephemera taken away, others are being allowed to enjoy it more than they were, from this point forward.

They are not excluded from said thing. They just don't want to go find the ephemera like others had to. It's not "super exclusive" and I don't care about my time with it. I wanted to make that clear but I know I can't convince everyone about that because many players simply don't have the ability to trust people on what they're saying despite it sometimes being the truth.

I'm all for allowing other players to enjoy the ephemera, that's why I'm not complaining about the 10%, i'm unsure about it due to the increased grind, but i'm not complaining. My issue stands with DE taking back what they said was going to happen and wasted time on ephemera farming. I'm 100% aware that stuff changes in the game, but DE has always been about respecting player's time and effort. Some players farmed literally hundreds of hours for these and don't have all of them but now money is king yet again.

4 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

You might want to take another look at what you wrote, because the judgement is pretty apparent.

If i'm judging people, quote me, where did I say that at any point I am judging players based off their ephemeras. I said jealous and envious. 

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

When this update rolled out a plethora of people rolled their very first Lich and quite a few of them got an Ephemera right out of the gate are you saying those people are unworthy? Are they not an achievement because those people didn't kill the prerequisite number of Liches, whatever that is?

That is a fact that is true for every Ephemera save for possibly those that launched(?) with the arbitration Store. 

Someone is always going to stroll haphazardly into an Ephemera with little effort and someone is alwyas going to grind their butt off trying to get one never to be blessed with what they seek. There is no rhyme or reason to them and as such they represent nothing. They are no more a sing of a players status or commitment to the game than any of the Warframes, Mesa for example could be a terrible grind someone could easily run that mission dozens of times and never get all her blueprints, someone else can walk away with the full set in three runs. Who cares which Mesa tried harder they both got to the same point because of luck, be it good or bad.

I am not saying they are unworthy, I said luck or grind and either way they earn it. I am of course jealous of these people, envious even but i will not take that from them. One of my friends even got his first try. I am not degrading them in any way, but to sell them is to not only devalue the ephemera and give players an easy out of the grind in both weapons and ephemera, but makes DE into liars. I don't want to say that but it's true from where I stand.

If they somehow happen across an ephemera, fantastic for them. I'm happy for them, round of applause. They earned it, literally. They played the chance and got an ephemera. I have NEVER said that any MR 2 players with smoking body ephemera don't deserve that ephemera. it's RNG. I may be envious, and jealous, and want to strangle the devs, but that's just it. I was jealous of someone having something I did not, and it kept me farming stalker until I just so recently procured one for myself last week. That took a year and it felt great. Will you get that rush when you see someone with a vengeful ephemera? no. You see and think, cool. Not OH THAT'S SO AWESOME I want that so badly, i'm going to go farm for it right now. You'll buy it and skip the grind all together.

9 minutes ago, Oreades said:

If you want to grind for your Ephemera by yourself and place value on that grind then by all means feel free, but you are a fool if you look at someone else Ephemera and assume anything about them based off of it. 

I won't place that on me because it means nothing at all, I'm just going to ignore the ephemera all together now. You don't get to show off a rare fashion frame, you don't get to say "hey look I got an awesome ephemera drop it took me 13 tied but I got it!" because your friend or this random dude will say "why didn't you just buy it?" It cripples the value of it. Again, I don't judge people based off that ephemera, I'd be an idiot to. For the third time, it's just envy and not the bad kind either. I joked with some new players about it and had a good laugh, I didn't feel bad because it's RNG, they earned it by chance, not but skipping the content which makes it valuable in the first place.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

9 minutes ago, Oreades said:

-snip-

Can you say that a random low ranked new player who has only killed one lich deserves an ephemera over those who have hunted over 30 lich since release for the exact same goal?

Rebecca said they would be earned only, meaning you can't buy them. Trading for plat is the same thing as buying, just not with DE involved. This is not earned only. If you earned more than one good for you, but some of us never get more than one and if you've got more than 1 vengeful, then that's on you for hunting the same progenitor over and over. You knew that if the lich spawned with the same ephemera it would be useless to you, so you went after it for the weapon.

Yes they are based off RNG, they don't hold a candle to Skull Badges and I even said that in one of my posts. But the fact remains it is earned through luck or grinding. They are achievements no matter what way you look at them. Not the best, but still an achievement that is now tradeable. By that measure they did go back on their word.

Comparing oberon and an ephemera aren't possible. Oberon is a warframe, he is progression in the game. A reward you hunt for to get a character. It has a substantial impact on gameplay for you and others. Ephemera are not the same. They have an impact on gameplay, yes, but minor in comparison to an entire character. Ephemera as an achievement makes sense because you're only meant to be rewarded with that achievement once. It's not like you're meant to repeat mastery rank 1 for 7 rank 1 achievements. that makes no sense.

[I Hate The Vengeful Ephemera Trade]

I posted this in the feedback for the update, but I'll post it in another thread just to hopefully make it somewhat more noticeable because I want to push this out there. 

   I'm really sorry to say this, it's going to sound extremely biased as it's coming from someone with a vengeful ephemera already. I know that reduces my credibility but I need to put that out there for honesty sake. I am furious and saddened at the ability to trade lich for ephemera and I'm calling BS on this change, I HATE it. Laugh if you want but I have reason. DE just took back something critical, I remember what DE said. DE pitched ephemera to us on devstream #123 as "trophies" or "achievements".They are meant to show you earned something, to prove to others you did something remarkable and went through some challenge to get these "trophies".

DE Rebecca Devstream #123 41:05 "We have a new school of cosmetics coming that are going to be for launch and probably quite some time after launch- they are going to be earned only, they are things you can get by playing sortie, in arbitration stores, in the ESO, and among other things, some upcoming content will have it dropping. So you can only earn these and only players that are capable of  earning them will be able to use them."

   Now... you're letting players sell the ephemera? I'm somewhat on the fence about that increase to 10% but this feelsnot just dirty and monitized, but completely goes against what ephemera were introduced as. You went back on your word AGAIN DE. Or were you always intending on making ephemera traceable just to make more money and lied to me, to us? This even disrespects the players that farmed hours, days, even a full week to gather several ephemera. You just devalued all that time spent. 

   I admired players for having an ephemera I wanted, now I don't. They probably bought it. I had pride in my charge ephemera. Now I don't. I used to grind lich for the ephemera *and feedback*. Now I don't. Why do any of that when I can trade for one. This may be a positive change in many players eyes, but this not only killed the only value the lich had for me, which isn't even content, but also deeply wounded by trust that you'll ever provide us with exclusives and achievements ever again.

   I want this change reverse. At least to the point where ephemeras can't be traded but maybe lich still can? But I know it won't happen and I'm just going to get laughed at for even suggesting this. I hope this gets heard in the flood of comments because I am not letting this go.

[Throwing and Charge Attack Buffs Please?]

   So shortly after phase 2 launched I went around checking melee weapons and i found that when dual wielding both a secondary and melee weapon, my throws could keep my melee counter. Why was this removed exactly? if anything the glaives should be exempt from this rule or at least have a high starting combo efficiency shouldn't they? I'll be blunt since I usually rant for a whole wall of text. Spending all combo on one throw actively pushes players AWAY from the quirk of the glaive where you can throw a weapon and that also hurts the only dual wield system in the game. That's the entire point of us using throwing weapons over normal variants. If you're going to introduce a new stat then make variety with that stat within weapon classes that deserve it to maybe make these builds viable on some weapons.
   Also yes I said stat, if you put on focus energy you will see that it is actually a stat, it's just hidden when it's at 0%

    Glaives need to be at least 40% and 80% at best. Seriously these things were made to be thrown and the glaives should be a highlight weapon for Phase 2.0 due to their charge mod changes. It's not like we'd be making these weapons much stronger than they were before either because throwing them before didn't remove any combo, at least give us reduction to weapons that are meant to utilize these attacks. I mean you're pretty much forcing players that like throwing weapons to play with sigma and octantis because throwing the shield with that actually generates more combo points than normal attacks, it can be thrown faster, and it can get headshot damage that scales with said combo generated. This is all stuff the glaive needs mods and to spend combo points to achieve.

   Caustacyst / Wolf Sledge / Arca Titron / Sibear / Redeemer / Sarpa / Sancti Magistar and others all deserve innate high efficiency built into them due to their quirk being focused around heavy attacks. The changes to such attacks really hit some of these weapons hard and looking into playing with stats you have would help assist build variety and viability for these weapons again. 

   Please Please don't take this the wrong way and nerf weapons... That would be extremely disappointing.

[DE, the announced "RNG reduction" misses the mark by so much that it hurts]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

Aren't you the one who keep saying DE should make sustainable content? Congrats, you have your sustainable content now

going to have to stop you right there. I have seen this enough times, this is not sustainable content. At best it's semi sustainable content. Sustainable content is something that will remain relevant for months on end. something that can be replayed over and over. At worst a player can run 13 lich and get all the weapons with good bonuses. That's incredibly unlikely but that should scream that this isn't sustainable. Semi based off the time required and chances but not sustainable.

To those of you who complain about the weapon % bonus it's stupid. You're complaining about a BONUS. The base weapon is already a monumental upgrade to the main weapon and DE doesn't need to give you this bonus, it's a bonus for a reason. If you want to grind out a powerful % then that's on you, i'm content with a 30% if I can get it because it's still better than the normal variant.

To those of you who complain about the new drop system, why are you complaining about a positive change. There is no reason to complain about a positive change, maybe, just maybe you'd want to suggest a better system to replace it. Like this guy, he's suggesting what I want too.

2 hours ago, trst said:

Spoiler

 

Then keep asking for an upgrading system to fuse same element weapons to increase the bonus.

But the point of the change had nothing to do with element rolls but for the thing most people complained about which is just getting a copy of every weapon. Also the entire structure of the system is made to be a long term grind, not something you bang out in a week like most updates. You won't ever be getting a max roll bonus quickly which is on par with complaining about not getting god rolls on every Riven.

Also seriously can this "missed the mark" meme stop while it's already dead? Nothing is even being missed people are just moving the goalposts and acting like the changes are meant to apply to something they aren't.

 

 

I'm not saying I dislike duplicates or don't understand that pain, I've got a friend who stopped playing for 2 days because he got 3 ogris in a row and so did tac potato. Obviously it's an issue but complaining about a fix is meaningless. say "Thanks DE, but I'd rather have gotten X fix for Y problem" but screaming "YO slapped me in the face" is nothing but a pointless funny post to get upvotes. Does it suggest a fix, does it inspire creative thought, no.

To those who are getting angry about not being able to influence the roles of the weapons. Well get over it, that's all I can say. Players in other in games deal with this all the time what makes this game any different. You want a special weapon or armor piece in diablo, get ready to get several duplicates with slightly different stats. There is no difference other than what you think the drop rates should be. In this game your voice is louder so you're more willing to speak out, but if you really had an issue with stuff like this then you'd be speaking out in diablo and path of exile. But you won't because you don't see the point or you don't care. Warframe is a grinding game just like the rest, expect duplicates. The fact that they added a system to where you can't get the same weapon twice already improves the chances of you getting the item you want so hush.

Now the trading kuva lich and weapons... that I have an issue with. I'm really hoping that this isn't what gets delivered to us because I'm much more a fan of my own bounty hunting system. Atleast I'm hoping it's limited to clanmates and credits making it separate from normal trading but even then it may turn clan chats into a trade chat and that's an entirely different issue. I'd much rather this change be reversed.

[What is the Worm Queen even doing?! [TWW spoilers]]

   There are good reasons why they are made of nobodies, I actually covered this in one of my concepts as possible lore. But the kuva loch we see are created from nobodies, random low class and light armored grineer. If a lightly armored uneducated male grineer is capable of becoming an emperor capable of ruling over half the system, wouldn't you have some questions about that too? It's also worth noting making them a lich weakens their loyalty to the queens because well they actually help you fight the grineer if you convert them. They are free thinking, and that's a huge danger to the grineer queens. 

   As for why they wouldn't try this on say tyl regor or any high ranking bosses, that's a huge risk. some of the quotes the grineer guardians say "Glory awaits you in her fortress,... or death." meaning there is some form of kuva rejection and plenty of lich die before they can even become a lich. If this is a thing, giving it to any critical figures like sargus ruk, or tyl regor, not only would it pose a huge power struggle within the grineer and present possibility of a new grineer leader, and I mean leader, you also run the chance of outright death from the rejection. Sure DE could plot armor them, but it'd be more believable if the queen were running experiments on low class and expendable grineer clones to perfect and safely create the tech for higher ranked soldiers.

[Everything about the Kuva Lich system is awful]

      This will be coming from someone who has killed 10 Lich and converted 3 since release. I've played against them at both high and low level areas and know how to both help and kill the lich with both tank and nontank warframes. I recognize the bugs, issues, and toxic behavior coming from them. I want to say i've got experience in the matter but I know others have more, I'm simply saying my piece. I'm not going to say the system is perfect but people are overreacting to this system in some aspects. I see both sides of the argument but I'm saying this system is good enough for me. Not great, it's only just breaks satisfying. This will be a post to show players what the system is actually like, from as much of an unbiased and fair perspective as I can possibly provide. based on my own experience, the information given by content creators, and other posts.

GRIND

Spoiler

   If anyone says that THIS grind is too much, then they're just wrong. I mean that in the most respectful way I can because I get it. My first experience with my first lich was terrible and I won't ever forget her no matter how hard I try. First impressions mean the world especially after a content drought. Players were angry and were critical about everything now but I implore you to give it another change, if not no then once Emperyon releases and further changes are released. Now onto the reasoning.
   One comparison is that this is worse then cetus and this is false. The lich will at bare minimum will take you 1-8 missions to complete if you're extraordinarily lucky. On the flip side of the coin, some lich took over 40ish missions. If one lich takes on average 25-30 missions this cannot be worse then cetus because you get a good weapon at the end of 30 missions and you can do it all without being restrained by a rep cap. Your grind and effort is done within your time and at your own pace to make it feel less like a chore and more like a choice. When has warframe released a luxury like that in recent years? Let me remind you guys that these aren't meant to be short term relationships, the lich is meant to take normal players several days to kill. This was an intended function of the system and they succeeded so I don't see what's wrong here.
   Next the mods will become defiled over time. Yes your mods will break and shatter, that's the point. Unlike with the amps, you wouldn't have a reason to go back to farm the T5 fissures if they had infinite charges. You could say "weapon adapters are there" but you can also get that BP from the syndicates for 75k standing. Certainly they could have made them easier to get but I haven't had an issue with them and from the sounds of it, neither do any of the content creators. RNG is frustrating and prevalent but I haven't had any issues since several corrections have been made including R Relics cannot be stolen by the lich, R Relics can drop from Thralls, and Kuva Floods being fixed. The mods also have 3 charges, so at bare minimum 1 full set of mods can guarantee you 3 lich kills, from which you could get 10-20 relics. Also don't forget that you can dissolve the defiled mods for 500 endo, they're miniature ayatan treasures. The main issue people had on release was that they were too hard to get and RNg was too high if DE was going to monetize the relics and mods fir plat.
   Warframe may be a more casual grind game but grind is still at it's heart. You should expect hours of grind if you want something. You guys think this is an arduous grind? You think this is tough? I farmed nova prime systems for 6 months before relics were added because I wanted nova prime. 6 for months straight. Unlucky, bad design, might even say I'm insane and I probably am. But I was introduced to what grind actually was because of Nova. Other grinding games like Diablo 2 and Path of Exile have harsh grinding curves with exceptionally rare and valuable items that sometimes take players a year or longer to acquire. "Tyrael's Might" being a legendary example. Tell me if there was a primed chamber that had a 0.01% drop chance from 3/3 cracked spy vaults on the kuva fortress, wouldn't you want to try your luck when you've got nothing else to do? I'm not saying make these mods 0.001% chances no that's stupid but what I'm saying is this is a moderate and fair grind.

WEAPONS

Spoiler

   If we're talking about the weapons, they do echo rivens, but you cannot compare the two. Unlike rivens there's a much better chance you'll obtain the weapon you want due to the limited weapons available and they aren't tradeable. The bonus won't matter too much if it's above 40%. You're talking about a 1-20% loss in damage for minmaxing. You could get unlucky and I feel that, there are moments in which I get weapons with 26% but at that point I've no issue converting them for future content involving Emperyon. Unlike rivens, you're guaranteed to gain something from the lich. If you're after the best of the best guns with 65% then you should know what you're walking into. All other grinding games have this too.
   In regards to the cracker requirement, I haven't dived too deep into that due to weapon slot limitations as i'm tight on platinum, but from the kuva brakk i've claimed and other opinions I can confirm that it's fine as is. I find the 5 forma ridiculous, but I don't find myself tripping in aggravation it either. The only reason I'd ever snap 5 crackers on these is for mastery and that's not something players care for. I'm fine with just 3 or 4 forma. If the weapon had a passive at 5 forma players would feel forced to forma it 5 times right? That's what happened with the paracesis. But the passive/upgrade already took place at rank 0 so you're not forced to cracker it 5 times like the paracesis to get the results you want. It's choice, and that seems to be a highlight of the old blood update... we don't talk about grendel's missions .
   Though the weapons aren't perfect, far from it. There are some heavy bugs like the the ogris and tonkor boasting worse stats then the original weapon. One of my friends got 3 ogris in a row and that really demoralized him. Speaking about that... duplicates. There is a way DE could help players want to get duplicates but they seem to just ignore the suggestion. I've been saying use the Fatal Bullet weapon enhancement system for the weapons but it seems to just be ignored. Thing is if you get a duplicate, then allow players to fuse it, or valance it, into the weapon to enhance the damage bonus putting more value in duplicates, even getting players to say "ah yes I got a "kuva weapon" so I can upgrade my own "kuva weapon".

FIGHTING THE LICH

Spoiler

   Oh boy... I've got issues with this but I'll start with what's expected. The instant death is BS, anyone with a brain can see that. This is by far the most infuriating part of the entire system both when I watch it happen to other players and when it happens to me. Take it from me personally, I was shown off in mogamu's video being executed TWICE because I didn't have the ability to even fight that lich. Of all players I'm one of the most bitter about this. This and it needs to be fixed. An idea I came up with is Kuva Madness Skill Checks, if anyone wants to check that out it's on one of my concept posts along with what the lich could have been. I won't post here because it's already long enough but a way to evade death would be appreciated because it'll mean "you failed so prove your skill or die". This I would understand but a "Press X to Die"  gnaws at me every time I see lich kill me, my friends, and pubs. Nobody enjoys Requiem Roulette. 
   Are they difficult? Are they easy? It's honestly hit or miss depending on where you are in the game and what frame you used. I originally thought they weren't tough but I now see that's because I'm just that capable of killing lich. I've seen entire parties struggle against a LvL 5 lich. Because of this I think we can finally say Warframe has some sort of mid game development. Sure it's amazing we have this but this isn't an endgame enemy or a threat. Were capable of melting lich within seconds if were prepared. It's disappointing LvL 5 was the limit because I was hoping to fight a LvL 65 lich with my friends over christmas for fun, but it became evidently clear that this would remain a dream. I'm sure a higher level cap would be appreciated among the community for harder fights. With that thought we also need a way to opt in and optout of difficult lvl 10-25 lich enemies.
   I'll give it this though, I personally have never felt better running pubs with my favorite frames. Both as Nezha and Banshee I feel critical to my allies because of my supportive capabilities. Public players usually will come up with toxin lich and we all know how that radial team killing mosh pit ends up. But as Nezha I neutralize hallowed ground and smite with firewalker and warding halo. Seriously I've never felt more satisfied about running nezha over rhino. Even titanya would be a close second and that's saying something for warframe diversity. As Banshee I'm capable of enhancing my allies damage to let them melt lich in seconds. I was recently thanked for using banshee because one player couldn't deal with their lich alone. Have I ever felt that happy playing banshee? NOPE playing banshee in pub never felt better and that's a gold star for the lich system for me. Counter play for lich is crucial and fighting an unfair enemy is what we needed to inspire team play. Ever wanted to know what it's like to fight an oberon, nyx, or irradiating disarm loki? Now you do. This is payback and it's not meant to feel fair but that just makes the rush from finally killing the lich makes it that much better because it's not just some lancer.
   Even fighting some other lich I've had a fantastic time. For the first time in ages I felt embarrassed because an AI managed to trick me. YEAH. One one the lich was born from radiation and was granted trickster abilities. My friend's lich decided to create a decoy, ok that's a decoy. Then it switch teleported me, then instantly switched with the decoy again and stood still imitating the decoy. I thought I was attacking the lich for a good 6s before I got grabbed from the rear and thrown off a cliff. Sure it may not happen all too often but if one player can be tricked so can others. 

   Lastly, interacting with the lich is always fun. The quirks and fun male personality makes me hesitant to actually kill my lich sometimes. I actually sacrificed a 59% electric kuva karak because I got too attached to BOPP.

LICH MISSIONS

Spoiler

   These have been really enjoyable for me. Not because of the mission itself no, but because I've been going back to older tiles. When running with my friends I can ignore the grind and joke about every day stuff while fighting LvL 100 enemies daily which is something that hasn't been given to us in ages. The last time I remember chatting it up with my clan and friends during a mission was when key runs were a thing and that really brings me back. Maybe I've got a soft spot for stuff like this but the Thrall Missions just feel like nice time passers. But for those of you that feel like you're not doing much don't worry. The newest interviews from brozime and tactical potato brought new info to light allowing us to do more in a single mission. This will make killing thralls hopefully a side objective.
   Angering the lich is what's annoying. I've found from my own experience Survivals, Defense, Hijack, and Excavation anger the lich at a higher rate compared to capture, spy, and exterminate. But sometimes they just don't want to spawn or never get irritated. I can take an entire planet from them and they refuse to spawn even at enraged status. Other times my lich attacks me 3 times in a row while it's indifferent. I don't know if it's a bug but it should be checked out at the very least. It's not too unfair but I can feel the pain of running missions while praying for a spawn. I'd like a more reliable way to get them to spawn but I feel that would defeat the purpose of the system.
   There is another bug, or maybe a display issue. Sometimes it will say the mission is one thing, but it turns into another. I've had issues running more valuable missions because it never tells me what it really is. One thing players do seem to miss out on though is the amazing revival of old mission types. Being able to run sabotage, capture, exterminate, etc etc again and again on old tiles is a dream come true for DE and has been successful in it's goal. Stop sometime to appreciate the tiles you play in every once in awhile, you might find yourself developing new tactics based off terrain.

   Something big, apparently, has been the stealing of items. Believe me I have too much experience with this and I can feel for all of you but I find it silly that this was a complaint. At the start I was like "oh 7 credits how cute" and often I still think that way. But I do get ticked off that they steal valubale items occasionally. One example being my first lich "Requiem" as I call her. I call her this because she was my first lich and stole 13 R Relics from me, preventing me from killing her for 3 days. That was patched but now I had one steal a smoke ephemera and another stole a riven. I haven't felt that angry at an enemy in a long time but the fact that I can get it back makes it fine for me. I don't mind having my items stolen, it could be different for other players that lack the resource stockpiles but now that there's an opt in and opt out system there cannot be complaints about the stealing of items. You brought it down upon yourself. Don't birth a lich if you aren't ready for the challenge that comes with it.

LICH BLOCKING

Spoiler

   One of the worst things about this system is the problem created by both DE and players. I don't blame anyone for this but DE's own lack of foresight and that's fine... if it gets fixed. People are people and they make mistakes. Despite popular opinion that it's only because players dislike "Press X to Die" there are two reasons why and both are just as valid and sickening as each other.
   Lower level players will want to avoid executing the lich because it makes them tanky and difficult on them, one of the worst things about it. Thus is holds up the lich que, DE needs to fix that because not being able to avoid such a powerful lich at the start of mid game is an issue because it's not just immersion breaking it's impossibly difficult for them to even kill them. After trying their hardest and defeating the lich they're rewarded by getting snapped in half and getting an even harder lich.
   Higher level or smarter players see an exploit. Keeping the lich alive yields more thralls and murmurs per mission, then if you killed them outright. Several ideas are open to fix this but DE should figure this out themselves. This means players that want murmurs will lich block and troll those who want shots at their lich creating a mixed cesspool of hate and distrust which actively pushes players in a multiplayer experience into a solo que. 
   I don't often find this problem but I do know it exists as every few missions I find someone who purposefully leaves their lich out there to gather thralls. I've got no right tot ell others how to play their game and telling players to bite the bullet and just kill them, no matter what their reason is, just feels wrong. DE needs fixes for both of these problems and if you're avoiding the lich for these reasons then that's fine but of all the excuses this is the only one I'd find reasonable. 

REWARDS

Spoiler

   The rewards is where the system should be falling but the other issues seem to overshadow it. If lich blocking and other bugs weren't a problem then this would be the main focus of my criticism for the system. The grind itself is fine, I said that before, but the rewards do not justify the grind. At present duplicates and weaker weapons are completely useless to players and that Fatal Bullet enhancement system would be a step in the right direction. But the rewards from R Relics and the weapons themselves are not enough to justify this grind. Almost, but not enough. Ephemera are not rewards either.
   Also to those that said the lich is "sustainable" they aren't. Once you've obtained the weapons you're satisfied with then you're done. that's it. They aren't 1 and done, but there is a limit to how many lich a player would need to kill to experience all the content and they can only remain fun for so long. They are not sustainable and again THEY AREN'T RAIDS! but oh well. There are in total 13 kuva weapons. That means the most lucky players only really need to play this 13 times to experience it all. That cannot be classified as sustainable content. Maybe semi sustainable, but not sustainable.

   I know that some people see me commenting that this system is negative and will accuse me of changing my mind, and I think I have... slightly. I was somewhat irritated but I'm calmer now. Despite that I still hold my ground saying the reward makes the grind and in my experience and time with the system this still isn't worth it. The staggered grinding is somewhat obnoxious but I can handle it and it's fair. Yes I play it, but it's not because I'm after weapons. I'm purely after ephemera to test my luck again and again and to continue to refine my opinion of the system as it grows.

   Look, this system was in development for 2 years. This should obviously be much better and vastly superior to what we have now. 2 years is almost as much time as Emperyon has been in development. I mean, Zephyr Deluxe was revealed 2 years ago! Anthem was developed in under a year.... apparently. LoR has actually shown us that the development of this system was somewhat... messy so it's to be expected this was somewhat of a flop. Compared to many other releases the nemesis system was apparently unorganized and scattered. This is DE's fault for not having this thought out because the system feels rushed and uncreative.With DE's ambitious standards this could have been oh so much more and this would be one system I'd be fine with them putting ambition into. If you avoid this system that's fine but calling this update a creative failure would be an injustice to what DE has produced.
   It's also not done updating yet, don't let that push you away from criticizing but it isn't done yet. Taking the system at current value and using that as your impression for the updates to come is the wrong way to view this system. 

[Everything about the Kuva Lich system is awful]

On 2019-11-03 at 1:20 AM, AR3E said:

Also I dont get why Khora here giving toxin, my friend got corrosive on Seer.

    That is because the Seer has innate corrosive damage, or at least the kuva variant does. The toxin damage gained was added into your corrosive most likely from what I've gathered. Pretty sure LeyzarGaming can provide you a better explanation on the weapon%

[Something needs to be done about players who won't attack their lich]

8 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Although majority of reason to NOT kill them would be still insta-death or rank up, i don't think nerf for it is that helpful for health.

   I personally find the complaints of instant death and ranking up from that sort of less important. Not saying it isn't valid, having an ego to match the power fantasy of WF is important and it hurts to be punched out of that without any reason. But now that I see this as an issue I can't unsee it. Having your ego hurt is one thing, but manipulating and breaking a system to your benefit is another.

   I mean, if you were in DE's position what would you try to correct first. Would you target the complaint you knew would arise from instant death and possibly an intended complaint, or would you try and shut down an unintended exploit letting players shortcut and trivialize the main focus of the update. To less powerful players the issue may be "I don't want them to level up" but for smart and powerful players, they can leach off what was meant to be a challenge to them.
   Both are obvious issues but I'd probably take the exploit fix first. If this doesn't actually make it's way to DE it might prove to be an issue because even if there is a skillcheck system or an escape from the counter execution, you'll still see players avoiding the lich.

   Probably making this out to be a much bigger issue than it's meant to be but a relevant issue is still an issue. Thanks for the confirmation on that though Test and Akots.

[Something needs to be done about players who won't attack their lich]

   Something that should be said, giving lich their own unique tile is not a solution I think DE wants to have. With the lich system we have been given almost 2X the amount of playable tiles in the game, both a normal and kuva varient. The player base is now spread apart, so much that I sometimes have trouble finding squads in public missions. This also prevents them from hunting you removing the whole nemesis idea and it makes the system passive. They might as well be a normal boss at that point but with a requirement like Kela De Thaym.

   Also, has anyone run any tests to verify if keeping the lich alive actually benefits players more than if they just killed them? Because if it is more beneficial to keep the lich alive you know this will be patched out. DE doesn't want you to use your NEMESIS as a tool and toy to force spawn more thralls. They are meant to be a threat to back up the lich. If they really are more helpful to keep alive then defeated, DE will more than likely either make lich converted thralls not grant mumurs, or remove the ability to convert thralls as a whole.
   Not all players will like that, nobody will probably but if you're going to abuse the enemy for your own benefit and play the system changes like the one I'm suggesting are bound to happen. Some negative changes will be more beneficial for the health of the game and this would be one of those changes. Of course if this change were to be implemented then DE would probably make it 15X murmur for all players in the mission. That's what I would do because it would mean all players benefit more from lich attempts. 15X means you would also want to play multiplayer and fight with other players, it helps speed the progress of the murmurs.

[Massive Kuva Lich Expansion Ideas +Lore +Fixes +Promotions +Bounty Hunters +Nemesis]

9 hours ago, ZargonKing said:

This, this is what I would really like with some of the mechanics in the current system, the parts I find intriguing are the Kuva Lich Madness, leveling and adding purpose to the Iron Wake settlement. It would add a layer to depth to the content but the Kuva Liches leveling to 35 might be a pain for some of the newer players, there should be some way to opt out of it, maybe tie the max level the Kuva Liches can go to with the Player's MR? It sounds like good suggestions and lorewise it would make sense, however, I'm not too sure how it would balance out

 

yeah, balance would be a question certainly. But I know if I tied it to MR it would cut into some players. There are some people that stay at MR 0 just because they can, and they play better than some MR 27. Unless you're talking about how high a lich can get while you're fighting it then that would be fine. having lvl 5-10 at MR 0 would probably for the best.

[Massive Kuva Lich Expansion Ideas +Lore +Fixes +Promotions +Bounty Hunters +Nemesis]

   This post will be primarily built towards giving DE ideas for the kuva lich system. Both cosmetic in personality and generation for a diverse experience, and mechanical for ideas what the lich can really be. For years this system was developed and I feel it could be much MUCH more. I have divided this into sections for organizational purposes and so players can avoid reading parts of the post they won't care for.
   Also, I get that they aren't yet done releasing their lich content and that this wouldn't be an easy project but It would certainly be a great update.

LORE
   This part of the post will be geared towards maybe providing an explination as to what the lich are, why they are selected, and why they only appear now. Many questions rise from the lich and I feel I can answer those... If DE actually accepts this anyways.

Spoiler

 

   I want to guess maybe why the kuvalarving, or as I call them kuvalings are lightly armored and weak subjects. This makes them easy to kill, but raises alot of questions. Why make such an unimportant grineer a lich?
   What I'm proposing is kuva rejection. Kuva rejection is a concept derived from the guardians saying that greatness or death awaits you in the fortress. If a kuva rejection were to occur for a heavy gunner then that's years of military training down the drain. If it were to happen to a butcher, then oh well he was just given a weapon. Light enemies are expendable, plentiful, and thus perfect subjects for experimentation. I don't think the grineer have any moral qualms with human or grineer experimentation but losing a high ranked commander would hurt so they would want to run tests before taking any big risks. What big risk? Well what would happen if Sargus Ruk became a kuva lich? Either he would become the strongest grineer in the empire next to the queens, or his body would reject the kuva and he would die. This is a general and rushing an injection without knowing the specifics of kuva is risky. Point is the queens may just be experimenting with expendable units to get down how the kuva affects different subjects.
   Now making combat liches aren't the only thing the queens may be after. We only know that kuva lich enemies have increased strength, but they obviously seem to become capable of leading empires that span the system, feats only generals and up have been reported to achieve. This means a slightly above average grineer consigned to the front lines for lich testing can evolve into an unstoppable and intelligent warrior. What if the kuva was given to a highly intelligent scientist. Examples being Tyl Regor, Dr. Tengus, or even just average grineer scientists working in the cloning labs. How smart could they become with the kuva and how would that affect the empire?

   One last thing is why are the queens only making lich now. Well there's multiple plausible reasons. One such reason being there was no need to. Why would you make someone strong enough to threaten your leadership? The lich fight for you if you convert them so they're not blindly loyal and I'm sure the queens know that. It would compromise them needlessly because the tenno weren't around at the time.
   My second reason is it was never possible, not enough kuva. Once the siphons were revealed it seemed like the worm queen needed us to actually harvest the kuva. This may be why we get alerts pointing us to their location. Lead the rat to the trap to accelerate kuva harvesting. Now that there are plenty of "dreamers" waking up to boost the harvest of kuva, perhaps the queens finally have enough kuva to place it in the hands of their troops. Supply and demand.
   My third reason is because of recent events. Tyl Regor is a very high ranking officer in the grineer society and him awakening the sentient should be no secret to the queens. I mean militaristic grineer started only because of a lone grineer miner discovered the sentient weakness. Why not just expand upon that and make them super soldiers like the tenno? Immortal warriros with powers? Why make an unstable alliance with the almost extinct tenno when you can make your own legion of far more capable warriors who are loyal to you even beyond the grave.

 

CURRENT PERSONALITIES
   This will be geared towards justifying the current personalities. This was spurred on by the fact that players critisize the jovial lich personality, and I did too but I found something else when I looked from a different angle.

Spoiler

 

   First the jovial lich is off the bat not very fitting to warframe. That is until you realize the males of the grineer aren't forced into as much military training as the men and don't have as high of expectations placed upon them. Thus the jovial lich is somewhat expected as they're more laid back then the females which fits within the grineer matriarchy. They, a lone lowly expendable unit, were given power and weren't trained for years like vor, ruk, and hek, they're more likely to be less serious about their job due to less time spent within the militaries training. Furthermore being jovial also speaks volumes to their intelligence as most grineer seem incapable of actually telling jokes pointing to them being smarter then they actually let on. Furthermore through the combined efforts of genetic deterioration AND the new arrival of the tenno, the grineer would have a hard time finding capable and intelligent grineer subjects for kuva. Even unintelligent grineer with "minimal genetic deterioration" might be better suited and more qualified for kuva infusion then a highly intelligent one with high deterioration like commanders. I'm assuming that has to do with kuva poisoning aforementioned in a devstream where they showed off the multiple heads of the lich.

   Second, the serious/tactical lich or the rude lich who I both despise and love. These two are much darker than the jovial lich which brings back some sense of morbid yet empty cruelty to the warframe universe and the torturous reputation the grineer started out with. Remember this is the faction known for leaving corpses laying around, they gladly commit suicide if it benefits the queens, paint brainwashing oppressive propaganda that shames even the nazi's, and take pleasure in television murder shows like rathuum. In other words this lich actually leans more towards players that want a darker warframe experience such as what this video describes. 

 

Possible Lich Customization
   This potion will be focused more of different options for the lich to generate with to diversify the player's experience and how they interact or feel about the lich. Note, you're not meant to like some of these lich, like the "Snakes" and the "Megalomaniac".

Spoiler

 

 So I won't actually be focusing on more quirky personalities but I'm sure DE can come up with more like mr IDIOT TAX. This is mostly meant for more uniquely grineer personalities.

1. Yandere Masochists. Yeah I'm serious. A yandere or masochistic lich that seeks you out so you can kill them would make perfect sense. Why wouldn't you become obsessed with something that gives you a power spike. Kuva is sort of like a stimulant or a drug and getting a reaction from death would logically push for an addiction. If converted these lich enemies will become battle crazed and relish fighting alongside you asking you to kill them later.
2. Empty/Lifeless. These lich enemies would be devoid of any care for them self, you, and their troops often with solumn tones and depressed voice lines, maybe even sick and questioning themselves. Their goal in life is to obviously meet you and kill you as many times as it takes. Fighting you is therapeutically helpful for them. If converted they become somewhat happier and more content with themselves expressing gratitude.
3. Megalomaniac, or much more like Vay Hek. These lich enemies are hysterical and love the feeling of power. These sound like the yanderes but have an obvious hate you for rather than an enjoyment to see you. These ones make it their lifes goal to oppress and degrade you and actually want to take over your body like the queens do. Unlike the yandere however these ones will actually begin pleading for you to spare them and to kill those around them instead. Megalomaniacs turn into protective bodyguards when protected as they think you're now far superior to anything the queens could ever produce, seeing you as perfect because of your natural immortality.
4. Scientists, These lich enemies will more often then not have a love for the warframe itself for their technology. They admire warframes and desire to study and analyze the frames void properties. They're studious and nerdy becoming erratic depending on if they see new warframe powers. Imagine a fanboy geek who's willing to kill to get what they want and that's this lich. If converted they fight alongside you to better examine your warframe and are giddy at the thought of more data without running the risk of death. Converted Scientists also sometimes remind you about ability mechanics.
5. Corrupt Gentleman/Gentlewoman, These lich enemies would be much more respectful then the grineer we currently see, but have a severe case of corruption to make you hate them. While they're dignified, they're sickeningly narcissistic and put themselves above you and even call their troops slaves. This slavery is furthered by their desire to enslave you with an asterisk following after Vor. They've got inflated egos but also are prideful in the grineer society like Sargus Ruk. I know these grineer exist because Harkonar is one such noble. If converted they are somewhat scared of you and try to correct themselves to remain on your good side.
6. Over dramatic. The over dramatic lich enemies will exaggerate everything done to them and make a big show of themselves and pretend that everything is going according to plan. They have a persona about them similar to that of Zero from Coe Geass. Note I said Zero, not Lelouch because he himself isn't dramatic, but Zero is. Another example being Kela De Thaym. Perhaps these lich also would have some concern for their troops. These remain somewhat the same when converted but gain more sarcasm to their lines.
7. Vengeful. I'm honestly surprised this isn't one yet because of the ephemera names, but a lich driven to madness in it's desire for revenge would be cool to interact with. At the start your lich would be an individual, and bitter at their defeat. These lich have a strong sense of individuality and always talk about how even as clones deterioration makes them different and unique and they take pride in that. After ever increasing victories, the lich is infuriated at your own immortality. Eventually the lich becomes bestial and primal like the wolf of saturn six. If spared they would show great loyalty.
8. Snakes. The snake ones are the worst of the worst being tactical, conniving, and deceitful. They are liars to the core and usually belong to tricksters that use underhanded tactics like invisibility, teleportation, and others.These lich are driven by an overpowering racism, frowning upon the corpus, tenno, and even the weakest of the grineer. As you get closer and closer to killing him he gets more and more jealous of your version of immortality. You are NOT meant to like this guy at all but I know some of you out there do. If converted they become slightly more honest but remain somewhat the same.

   It goes without saying more quirks would be nice like being a scardy cat, being athletic, etc etc. But one thing I would love to see if more filters added to the lich enemies. I'm sure you could splice the G3 or make new filters to further augment and diversify the lich experience.

 

SPECIAL ALLIES
   This part of the topic will focus more on adding value to converting the lich because they are somewhat... dumb... But outside the mission is where you can get extremly creative and actually make them valuable to the players. They were created to rule empires after all.

Spoiler

 

Opt in // Opt out
   This would be a very special way to put in an opt in and opt out system. Killing a kuva larva will still be automatic, HOWEVER if you have converted a lich, randomly one of your lich will intercept the transport vessel, killing the lich and stealing it's kuva if you command it to. This would mean that after converting a lich, these no longer become an issue. Of course the issue is it only takes place AFTER you decide to convert one.

Orbital Assistance
   You can also deploy up to 3 of your lich in the star chart where they hold power over 1 planet. If a lich is in control of said planet, they will protect it from another lich's influence. meaning they cannot take over any nodes on that planet freeing them of the normal lich tithe and giving you control over where the enemy lich cannot spawn.
   If you play a mission within a kuva lich's territory you will get 3 immortal thralls in your mission which assist you in your fighting. They also have a much higher chance of coming to your rescue. If one is to die, you can parazon them to reconnect them to the kuva lich and bringing them up by 25 levels. When using your Air Support charge your lich will also spawn for the remainder of the mission if you are playing on their planet.

Planetary Harvesting
   Your Lich will gather all four resources from the planet continuously using your available extractors while making sure not to break the extractor. Extractors deployed by the lich lose 50% less health and will harvest 2 different resources guaranteed, they also have a chance to harvest 500 kuva. Resources gathered are placed in iron Wake to be collected.
   Playing on planets with your lich will allow you to harvest materials at an increased rate using the lich tithe to your advantage, taxing your enemies on their retreat. Total resources collected are increased by 1% per lich level which helps collect materials faster and encourages endurance runs. This would be very helpful because if you have level 100 lich, you gain 2X the resources. This can be used as progression and make better weapons much more expensive. Higher cost makes newer players shy away from such weapons and mastery can be added as a secondary measure.

Exhaustion and Promotion
   Lich have an exhaustion meter and the longer they are deployed the more energy they will burn. Higher level lich will have more energy to expend but will recover from fatigue faster. Exhaustion will occur passively the longer they are active and becomes increased by playing on their planet.
   Promoting your lich is achievable by infusing them with 2,500 kuva for 1 level up to a level of 100. Each level will grant you benefits when they are deployed and make them stronger when they assist you. Converting lich will transfer their current level to you meaning this will save you kuva in the long run by leveling your lich. However making them too powerful makes them harder to take on. This means experienced and tougher players have a reason to make the lich extremely difficult, but they will have the chance to kill them whenever as the murmurs will have been completed long ago.

Rivalry and Sabotage
   Your lich allies may also grow jealous and attack each other making special invasion missions. These invasions will sort themselves out but without your word both of your lich will exhaust themselves and a winner will be randomly selected between the two. The loser, if you intervene will only be out of commission for 3 days. The loser, if you choose not to intervene will be out of commission for 1 week. Lich that lose will fall by 5 levels, lich that win will rise by 5 levels.
   During the invasion you will hear the two interact and fight each other. In order to finally put a stop to the invasion, you must complete the mission 3 times, and enter a fourth time where your opposing lich will spawn. You must use the same exact kill code you used the first time in order to stop the invasion. Once downed, you can choose to either kill your lich for insubordination, extracting 20% of the kuva placed within the lich and obtaining their weapon, or keep them around and forgive them. 

 

Changes to Lich Fighting
   This will introduce several new ideas. One of which is a way to avoid the "Press X to die" and provides several alternatives to avoid your lich while involving the community. So maybe give it a read if you're interested in how the lich can be altered for a more free, yet complex and challenging experience for even the best of players putting more fairness and difficulty into the system.

Spoiler

 

Struggle Skill Check
   One issue I see most commonly with the kuva lich is that they instantly kill you and it's not very challenging. Well to this I say add in a new system. If you get the requiem combo wrong a special skill check starts called Kuva Madness. Kuva Madness is a large, red, wheel of grineer hacking. Miss once  or let the madness continue for 18 seconds and you die. Kuva Madness has 13 slots instead of the usual 8 slots in normal grineer hacking and is much faster. Every 2 seconds one of the slots will come undone.
   This would fix the "you're just instantly going to die" idea and ties it more to skill. By the time the kuva lich rolls around you should be familiar enough with hacking to get a serious hack.

Increased Levels
   Kuva Lich may level up to Level 35 total. Every 5 levels the Lich will also gain access to a new warframe ability. This will make them harder and harder to kill and provide more of a challenge to those who want it. This is also helpful for leveling up the lich and saving kuva on possible promotions.

Isolation Tax
   Isolation Tax is paying the lich 10,000 credits beforehand to avoid them. These credits can be reclaimed after the lich has been defeated alongside all other rewards. Paying tax will allow players who dislike fighting their lich to prevent their spawning. This will satisfy the players who both want to avoid the lich, and the players that dislike lich blockers. Becuase you gain the credits back when they die, it's a small price to pay.

New Weaknesses and Strengths
   The lich have several new weaknesses that are more specialized then what we currently have. These weaknesses can include (Weak to melee attacks) (Weak against Impact Projineters) (Can be pinned by Kubrows) (Weak to Infested Weaponry) 
   The lich can have several strengths as well to make them more specialized. These can include (Immune to damage from 8m or further) (Shields can only be harmed by the void) (Parazon Finishers must undergo a skillcheck) (Damage taken increases armor) (Damage Taken increases damage) (Reflects damage to nearby grineer allies) (Always deals critical damage)

Arch Nemesis
   Once a lich is down, they will have a third option. You may turn them into an Arch Nemesis, a lich who will always haunt you and returns from death again and again occasionally replacing your normal lich creation. These lich can never be converted and extend far beyond level 100 and only 1 Arch Nemesis may exist. Each time they return they cover more and more of the map and get harder and harder to kill. Arch Nemesis will have a 6 Requiem Kill Code and 12 total health bars. Normal finishers will take place every 2 health bars.
   Killing your Arch Nemesis levels up all converted lich by 1, restores all requiem mods used for execution, grants 1 riven mod, and 750 kuva Per Nemesis Level. All normal resources stolen by the lich are multiplied. This means the nemesis is worth killing and also can act as a farming multiplier.
   Arch Nemesis can also initiate invasions against your deployed converted lich. You must defend your lich or they will perish for treason against the queens. If you fail, a message will be sent to you, showing your lich being executed by your nemesis on live television.
   Arch Nemesis have unique variations to normal transmissions compared to their normal variants to remind you they are infact the enemy you should fear.

Bounty Hunting
   Players around the world can hunt down your lich. If players choose they may travel to the planet's relay and access a terminal, posting their lich as a bounty. The planet MUST be under the control of the lich and have a relay for this to be possible. Players without a lich can accept the bounty and begin hunting the lich. Both the finder AND the bounty hunter will be going after the same lich. 
   I'm sure you're saying that sounds stupid. Well, this actually makes a reason for DE to begin more relay constructions, making relays on all planets. it also means losing a relay will hurt the players. Punishments. You cannot put a bounty if there's no relay. if the lich system's foundation is built on punishing players for ignoring them, then we can tie that to the relays which makes the community more proactive and give them a reason to guard these things.
   this system will not include any platinum, only credits. This is strictly to rid yourself of a lich you dislike fighting to prevent players from selling their lich like an item because that's not what this is meant to be. With a bounty hunter the killing will progress faster. Keeping the lich out of trade chat is healthy for the game, seriously. If there is any way to sell off lich, this is the way.

Eldritch Daemon
   Eldritch are the strongest of the lich. Very Very Very rarely, a player may encounter a kuvaling that looks... different. Normally kuvaling are lightly armored enemies. The Eldritch Kuvaling will be noticeable as they are heavily armored units such as nox, bombards, or heavy gunners. Killing the Eldritch Kuvaling will start a world event. where all players can drop their lich and take a bounty for the Eldritch by talking to Cressa Tal at Iron Wake.
   Eldritch Daemons are masters of their craft and are extremely powerful containing dozens of warframe abilities, and 12 health bars and 6 parazon finishers similar to a nemesis. They are Level 100 Lich and come with unique classes. Eldritch classes include "Necromancer" "General" "Daemon" and "Shinobi". All Eldritch have 10,000 True Execution Points until they are killed *or however many would be reasonable*

• Necromancers are Eldritch that can summon the fallen lich of the past by replicating the cloning process. Players hunting the lich will have to kill the lich they have previously vanquished but at a much higher level in order to summon the Necromancer. This means some players must run with old executions, and one player must save their attack for the Eldritch Necromancer. Necromancers must be executed three times in the same mission for 1 True Execution. Enemies within the Necromancer's Missions have an 80% chance to revive.
• Generals are highly capable commanding officers that have commanders that rule under them and have much more health and armor compared to the other eldritch classes. Their missions are always Eximus Strongholds with 2 other Sotie Modifiers. Generals require 2X as many murmurs to discover their weakness. If True Executed in the mission, the General has a 25% chance to not take damage. While the general is active Fomorians are constructed 3X faster from grineer invasions.
• Daemons are masters of corruption and turn your converted lich against you. These Eldritch nullify Warframe Abilities. Daemons have 25% more Execution Points and will recover their True Execution points over time making them resilient and can only be killed by consistent play . Daemons will tax players, taking 75% of their items. When going in for a parazon finisher, players enter a skill check *aforementioned above* but will only have 10s to complete it or the finisher will not take place, even if it is the right mod.
• Shinobi are master assassins among the lich. Shinobi are much much MUCH harder to anger and rarely reveal themselves, but are more likely to attack you if you are alone in the mission. Shinobi murmurs can only be obtained by completing spy, sabotage, and assassination missions as their thralls have no murmur value. Shinobi will have a massive amount of thralls within their missions, but they grant no murmurs because the tralls commit suicide before you can kill them. If the Shinobi decides to attack they will summon the G3 as thralls and their entry will be unannounced. Shinobi will have a 50% chance to run away if they are low on health.

   Eldritch provide... well I don't know exactly what they would give you that makes them worth this grind... erm. Something. Maybe a shiny new ephemera based of the lich, kuva weapon augments, one of a set mod, and a kuva lich color palate. This would be a good way to introduce the palate as a reward but keep them extremely hard to get and retaining the value of the market bundle. To the player who decides their fate, that player may either convert the eldritch, making them an NPC at Iron Wake, or kill them. If converted they also will assist the player occasionally but cannot be controlled like other lich. 

 

Changes to Kuva Weapons
   As it stands, we have some issues with the weapons like duplicates. I won't cover the bugs as that's self explanatory but this will involve new weapons, adding value to all weapon drops, and overall improving the rewards you get from the lich while adding freedom to do what you want. This will also add more value to Iron Wake as DE shows internist in making it unique.

Spoiler

 

More Kuva Weapon Types
   Kuva Weapons will be expanded, including the Grinlok, Hind, Miter, Nukor, Twin Viper, Machete, Ripkas, and Amphis. These are all unpopular weapons and deserve a shot at the spotlight. I personally love the twin viper and I know some players appreciate others here, even if it's only a few players. Based on the changes to the current Kuva Weapons I've got absolute confidence that DE can make these better if they wanted to. If the kraken can come back, then any weapon can... except the stug.

Kuva Weapon Valence Stacking
   Now I have said this should be the case for rivens, and this will be posted later, but Kuva Weapons should get benefits by combining the two weapons. Combining two weapons of the same type will not only combine forma, but also add small amounts of damage to the elemental bonus. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT because this would mean all kuva weapons are useful and assist you in some way. Grinding the kuva lich will never not give you something beneficial.

Steel Market
   For ages the walls of Iron Wake have run empty, devoid of tenno but for quests... shush I know slivers helped but come on. DE can really improve on the coolness factor of iron Wake. I mean it's literally the only anti grineer grineer settlement we have access too, GO CRAZY!
   The Steel Market can dismantle excess kuva weapons which provides both kuva and defiled requiem mods to the players. This... may be used later on as Defiled Mods are a thing. DE might be able to do something interesting with them and if not, it's free endo. Dismantling Kuva Weapons will increase the chance, ever so slightly, that an Eldritch Kuvaling will spawn.
   Kuva Weapons can be purchased, in their base form without any bonus, in the Steel Market for defector dog tags. These are obtained from the defection missions and you gain more the further you get. Relic Packs, Kuva, and unique zaw arcane blueprints may also be purchased for Defector Dog Tags.   

 

   These are the changes I'd personally like to see in future expansions, could be good, could be bad, may not fit, may not. I dunno but I'd find it cool and it would put value in some lost parts of warframe like relays.

[A Shot at Endgame Suggestions "Revenge of the Sergreant"]

6 hours ago, AlfredDean said:

Maybe something that would let you put default skins of a weapon in the same class on another one (like a skin exilus almost) it's a thing people have wanted for awhile and I think this would be an interesting way to do it

   Perhaps, but transmogrification feels like something DE should reward players with. Putting that reward in one a raid concept feels somewhat wrong. It also feels like that would be something simaris would create and he's nowhere in this concept. Maybe DE could twist it to a sigil making it weird like the void and bloodshed sigil like this. But I still feel like this would still be too close to the ephemera. I really want the rewards to be status themed but I can't really think of anything other than maybe turning them into unique sigils, but that still feels like it's too similar to the vengeful ephemeras.

 

[Something needs to be done about players who won't attack their lich]

1 minute ago, SenorClipClop said:

It's not the only way to complete it, it just makes the grind a whole lot faster. It's the same with Prime parts.

   Sure but I'm seeing alot of players resorting to it becuase they can't seem to get that last mod and use a WTT. It's not 100% the same as primes as primes are somewhat easier to get. You can target places where your relic drops, but you've got a random chance if you get an I, II, III, or an IV. That combined with the fact that you have to spend traces to hopefully get the right mod makes it rely on trading more than primes. There's also multiple relics for prime parts and they're spread across various tiers, again the mods aren't so they're harder to track down.

47 minutes ago, Philogosten said:

If you take a bite of a burger that is slathered in too much mayo then you don't sit there and finish the burger then order more and then eat those before asking for a less gross burger. You just go "hey this burger has too much mayo". 

   There's a pretty big difference between burgers, which are mostly down to a science and are physical things that take 10m to make and a virtual system that takes months to create and hours to edit. Of course I'd prefer it fi it didn't suck but If people don't dive into it to find out what's wrong with your "burger" it will remain the same and go unimproved. You're trying to give feedback on something you've only heard about without considering anything else. By all account give your feedback, but I doubt DE will even care or notice if it's coming from someone that didn't even give their 2 years of work a try. Your criticism is harsh and based off other players judgement. You have all the right to comment, but they also have all the right to ignore someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. Wouldn't you be mad if you spent 2 years of work on writing an essay and reviewing it and after reading one page someone says TRAAAASH. I bet you would. maybe... just maybe give the lich a shot before saying nah it's not worth it. 

   In regards to dragon keys, they are 100% similar what are you talking about. They are items with limited use and act as keys to a door that hides your reward. what do you mean they aren't similar. Just because 1 is on a different extreme than the other doesn't mean they aren't similar. One unlocks a useful mod, one unlocks the weapon/ally. Both are useless once you've gotten everything from them. Also they used to be much worse than relics and we were fine with that. Remember they consumed void keys at one point. You know, those things that could give you multiple primes with one opening, We saw that as valuable yet it was a cost worth the sacrifice. They are 100% able to be compared given the history of keys. They can be ignored huh, and lich's can't? They're adding a way to avoid this so that's an invalid point to bring up.
   With that out of the way no, they are not rewards. They're parts to a blueprint for your key to kill the lich. The only difference is it's a different stage of grind. Seriously, what else do these mods do that makes them classify as rewards? Are the mods alone valuable? no. they have no value by themselves. Trophies have more value because they at least represent something. These are useless by themselves and you will never be excited when you get them because that's not what you're after at the end of the day. You can argue that yes that is what you're grinding for, but why do you want them? to kill the lich and get what you're actually after.

   What exactly is stolen from you that you find so valuable. that 23 endo? cool dude you get angry over those... 5000 credits and... 9 plastids. Honestly the tithe is so small that I'm hardly ever angry unless it takes something like a riven or a rare stance I wanted. No what you're really after is the gun or the conversion. You undertake the lich for that exact reason knowing that you'll have your rewards stolen. hell guess what, you lose nothing if you actually kill them because they're all handed back once they're defeated. 
   You have to grind ridiculous amount to get to a halfway point yeah that's the point. It's not meant to be done in a day unless you go all in on it. Do you seriously think the lich were designed to be defeated in a day? What about "long term relationships" are you missing out on and how is your love life because 1 day isn't that long. Given how these were sold, the time spent is fine. The rewards are the actual issue because it's not enough to justify the grind and that's the point I was making. 

   Now let me tell you a story friend. Some of us... ok bear this in mind, SOME OF US spend months, even maybe a year to get a good riven mod through rerolling it's stats. This probably includes you. Some of us have been grinding primes since their release and never got them yet we still try our hand at getting them. I went after nova prime systems when she was released and got it 6 months later. nonstop orokin derelect. You think this is limited to WF? Diablo has the same thing. D2, the most famous of the diablo games has an item called Tyreal's Might and that- THAT takes a long time to farm. Some players have been farming for years and have yet to obtain that. As I said, you would be surprised at how much players are willing to do, to get items that have value to you. Think I'm done? nah Path of Exile is the same thing. Tell me if Primes Chamber has a 0.01% drop chance from an enemy, would you farm that? It's not an essential just like riven mods and it's not meant to be easy to get like riven mods. You call yourself a player that enjoys grind, I don't think you know what grind actually means. Definition is in the eye of the beholder but if you think 6 to 10 hours nonstop is terrible you're out of your mind.