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Oberon and Nekros


jilao12
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On 2018-10-27 at 4:27 AM, Varzy said:

It does profit Nekros, it heals the shadows and prolongs their duration.

They're still a big drain on Oberon's energy, of course, but they actually drain less energy than a Warframe would.

As someone who mostly plays Nekros, no, it does not benefit Nekros.

Even though Renewal heals the Shadows, it doesn't make any noticeable or worthwhile impact on their duration when compared to the energy cost incurred by the Oberon. Not only that, but Nekros needs to recast Shadows regularly anyway... And doesn't get any discounts based on how much health the recast restores. The extra healing is wasted energy.

The existing interaction between the abilities is purely detrimental and should be changed, so that Renewal is available to those who might actually need it (the players themselves).

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On 2018-10-27 at 7:27 AM, Varzy said:

but they actually drain less energy than a Warframe would.

Citation needed.

Also, even if that is true, it's probably for only ONE Shadow. This is completely negated by the fact you can have up 7 Shadows wandering around constantly losing health. That is a massive and unacceptable drain, when you have 3 PLAYERS that you're trying to keep in the game.

Call me narrow-minded and selfish, but I think that 3 other players are just a wee bit more important than 7 zombies that, by design, are SUPPOSED TO DECAY.

On 2018-10-27 at 7:27 AM, Varzy said:

It does profit Nekros, it heals the shadows and prolongs their duration.

This ONLY benefits Nekros...right up to the point where the Oberon player ultimately runs out of energy...whereupon the entire team no longer gets damage reduction and heals. Including the Nekros player. This is potentially devastating in a high level Endless run where Oberon's heals and damage reduction can mean life or death to some players.

I hate Endless missions that have Nekros players that mindlessly spam SoTD when I run my "Paladin" build Oberon. Why? Because they effectively stop me from playing Oberon in one of the ways that DE clearly intended for him.

Players really need to think about how their actions affect others.

 

 

 

Edited by MirageKnight
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On 2018-10-30 at 1:45 AM, MirageKnight said:

Citation needed.

Citation granted. From the wiki: " Renewal drains 2 energy per second to remain activated. When allied targets are below their maximum health, Renewal will drain an additional 3 energy per second for every allied player and 1 energy per second for every allied summoned unit affected by its healing; Renewal will end if Oberon runs out of energy, it is dispelled, or if deactivated manually by pressing the ability key again (default 3 )".

Please actually check the resources surrounding the ability in question before challenging others on their mechanics.

The reason why Oberon's energy drains so fast is that Nekros summons 8 Shadows, causing an extra 8 energy/second drain.

I'm an Oberon main myself, and while I agree that Nekros and Shadows is annoying, I was paying attention to the discussions when the ability was buffed to become a channeled ability and the whole Renewal/Shadows interplay debate that resulted from it. This synergy was already discussed and criticised in length when it first appeared, and DE decided that rather than cutting Shadows off from healing, instead summoned allies like Shadows and specters would have a reduced heal per second.

DE's answer to this problem was 'reduce their energy cost'. Renewal's interaction with Shadows isn't an oversight, it's working as intended following community feedback. You can say 'It doesn't profit anyone' but Nekros players and a lot of Oberon players actually asked for the mechanic to stay in - they liked the potential team play that arose from it. Maybe shadows need to have an even lower drain or maybe they should count as just one unit, but the fact is, this mechanic is no accident and serves a purpose.

There's certainly worth in bringing up the topic again and revisiting it now that time has passed, but please don't talk down to others during the discussion like this.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Varzy said:

The reason why Oberon's energy drains so fast is that Nekros summons 8 Shadows, causing an extra 8 energy/second drain.

Actually, the default max is 7 but it can go higher when Shadows of Hyekka Masters/Sniper Crewmen/etc. summon their own minions which also count as Shadows.

I typically see up to about 10, but I'm not sure if that's a max or I simply never have enough summoner Shadows.

6 hours ago, Varzy said:

I'm an Oberon main myself, and while I agree that Nekros and Shadows is annoying, I was paying attention to the discussions when the ability was buffed to become a channeled ability and the whole Renewal/Shadows interplay debate that resulted from it. This synergy was already discussed and criticised in length when it first appeared, and DE decided that rather than cutting Shadows off from healing, instead summoned allies like Shadows and specters would have a reduced heal per second.

DE's answer to this problem was 'reduce their energy cost'. Renewal's interaction with Shadows isn't an oversight, it's working as intended following community feedback. You can say 'It doesn't profit anyone' but Nekros players and a lot of Oberon players actually asked for the mechanic to stay in - they liked the potential team play that arose from it. Maybe shadows need to have an even lower drain or maybe they should count as just one unit, but the fact is, this mechanic is no accident and serves a purpose.

There's certainly worth in bringing up the topic again and revisiting it now that time has passed.

Urgh, that's really disappointing.

Was the Renewal change before or after the Shadows of the Dead rework? Back when Shadows wasn't fully recastable and functioned on duration, that team synergy would have made some degree of sense. In its current iteration, though, it doesn't amount to much more than a dysfunction.

There is seriously no practical benefit to this interaction. The Nekros doesn't need and probably doesn't want the Shadow healing, and it stops Renewal from helping teammates who actually need it. Gods forbid the Oberon matches with multiple Nekros players using Shadows builds. It also seriously gets in the way of Phoenix Renewal.

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If anything the problem stems from the fact that an effective healing for warframes (60-100 hp/s) does next to nothing for shadows which have tens of thousands of HP if not more. 

Oberon casting on Nekros also blocks your despoil-equilibrium feedback loop most of the time so basically the two frames should stay the hell away from one another... 

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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Actually, the default max is 7 but it can go higher when Shadows of Hyekka Masters/Sniper Crewmen/etc. summon their own minions which also count as Shadows.

Right, sorry, was bundling Nekros in with his shadows there in my head. The irony of missing that mechanic's detail isn't lost on me.

 

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Urgh, that's really disappointing.

Was the Renewal change before or after the Shadows of the Dead rework? Back when Shadows wasn't fully recastable and functioned on duration, that team synergy would have made some degree of sense. In its current iteration, though, it doesn't amount to much more than a dysfunction.

There is seriously no practical benefit to this interaction. The Nekros doesn't need and probably doesn't want the Shadow healing, and it stops Renewal from helping teammates who actually need it. Gods forbid the Oberon matches with multiple Nekros players using Shadows builds. It also seriously gets in the way of Phoenix Renewal.

Shadows was in it's current state. For a while Renewal could counteract the health decay and keep a Shadow up indefinitely, but since Shadows lose 3% of their health per second it gets less effective as levels go up. A Nekros modding for Duration reduces the drain, but modding for Strength increases the health and thus has a higher health drain.

Initially Renewal didn't cost any extra energy to heal Shadows, which is probably why people liked the interaction at first and DE decided to keep it. They added the smaller energy drain afterwards, and so every now and again this debate crops up.

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18 minutes ago, Varzy said:

Right, sorry, was bundling Nekros in with his shadows there in my head. The irony of missing that mechanic's detail isn't lost on me.

Not trying to point anything out flippantly; it's just that the baseline Shadows count for a whole 2 extra teammates and can go as high as a whole extra squad (not counting Oberon) on its own. Even at the reduced rate that's a little ridiculous considering how little of a difference it makes.

Quote

Shadows was in it's current state. For a while Renewal could counteract the health decay and keep a Shadow up indefinitely, but since Shadows lose 3% of their health per second it gets less effective as levels go up. A Nekros modding for Duration reduces the drain, but modding for Strength increases the health and thus has a higher health drain.

Initially Renewal didn't cost any extra energy to heal Shadows, which is probably why people liked the interaction at first and DE decided to keep it. They added the smaller energy drain afterwards, and so every now and again this debate crops up.

That makes a bit more sense, but I still find it to be a dysfunctional synergy. Low-level Shadows with low health are paper anyway (I've never noticed Renewal make a difference) and high level ones seriously don't need the help.

Strength is a pretty big part of Nekros' most conventional builds, so at the very least it might be nice to add some mechanism for blocking the synergy on the Oberon's part.

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i think oberon needs to make use of each planets and weathers terrains to enhance reload speed after using abilities and grant insight there could also be some deflecting fire and ricochet gameplay to be added to make the oberom more fun if the player does make good use of each environment and ambush, the rain powerup could keep team mates happy, the planets with snowstorms or heavy wind that could affect the players abilities, emp rifts in thunderstorms and other natural causes like earthquakes should be obviosly part of the econature of all the areas and jungles, to make oberon and other warfrmes make more sense use these via convertion and energy conversion to survive and remain less depleted or fatigued when operating each stype of warfrme in each new planet or mission, because in a ship there is nothing to draw from other than heavy electricity and resources the oberon would have to be refited to allow for some tackles and other travel boots and pants joke aside strenght when facing traps and ambushes, otherwise the oberon will face too many problems with new players, boredom, we need to compensate the level ups and resources/ repeat parts to protect teammates and sacrifice the need to respawn/defeat items and revive boosters that should make the game more useful in closed scenarious, at least make crouching aquire energy from grass to power up bullets and weapons, and used abilities have temporary effects, hate missing that psiblast, it should boomerang if it hits nobody to reduce costs, etc.

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6 hours ago, (PS4)santospizarro said:

i think oberon needs to make use of each planets and weathers terrains to enhance reload speed after using abilities and grant insight there could also be some deflecting fire and ricochet gameplay to be added to make the oberom more fun if the player does make good use of each environment and ambush, the rain powerup could keep team mates happy, the planets with snowstorms or heavy wind that could affect the players abilities, emp rifts in thunderstorms and other natural causes like earthquakes should be obviosly part of the econature of all the areas and jungles, to make oberon and other warfrmes make more sense use these via convertion and energy conversion to survive and remain less depleted or fatigued when operating each stype of warfrme in each new planet or mission, because in a ship there is nothing to draw from other than heavy electricity and resources the oberon would have to be refited to allow for some tackles and other travel boots and pants joke aside strenght when facing traps and ambushes, otherwise the oberon will face too many problems with new players, boredom, we need to compensate the level ups and resources/ repeat parts to protect teammates and sacrifice the need to respawn/defeat items and revive boosters that should make the game more useful in closed scenarious, at least make crouching aquire energy from grass to power up bullets and weapons, and used abilities have temporary effects, hate missing that psiblast, it should boomerang if it hits nobody to reduce costs, etc.

No. Why would they ever tie his optimal usage to RNG weather effects?

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9 hours ago, Atsia said:

No. Why would they ever tie his optimal usage to RNG weather effects?

well there could be some small optimizations to how oberon performs in different planets, since the composition does change from indoor-outdoor we could have a piston that generates ethercurrents used in sprinting via energy reserves, the viscous liquid has to be good lubricant that allows for faster reloads and enhanced optiical warframe in night and day, minimal changes to ui to make the pilot / tenno really connect with the environments and terrains, to make abilities like hollowed ground make more sense, the player could gain non-combat bonuses.-and oberon would be more fun to use creatively in relation to where he is standing and what the terrain/weather is like, say, its raining hard like a commando in a call of duty game, the optics are usually foggy and wet, making decition making dificult since the monsters and enemies are hidden behind flickering lights, vines, thunder and explosions, a oberon warframe user could learn to use these problems to his advantage to reinforce his abilities and basically power up his guns/reserves when needed, really muddy weather.

Edited by (PS4)santospizarro
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Damn, I thought Oberon + Nekros would be good for arbitrations survivals, but guess I won't be using my ghosts then. I don't want Oberon to run out of energy on arbitrations because of Phoenix Revival.

Hope they either make healing ghosts cost no energy or remove healing done to them along with that energy sink, I'd much rather see any of those two. Bad synergy right there.

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