Please undo Staticor's AoE boost

[TyrianMollusk]

I say this as a frequent staticor user who considers it my favorite and most-used secondary, possibly my favorite weapon in the game.  Please undo the blast size change and do what you should have done in the first place: cap the area of effect so it doesn't grow out of control.  Having it always be full-charge area is way too much.  Bring it back to the nice, modest level it was with the charge for bigger area option.  It was a fine weapon before.

The AoE is excessively large now.  Please return it to its pre-buff state.  Please only return it to its prebuff state.

Edited November 18, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[wolf96781]

32 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

I say this as a frequent staticor user who considers it my favorite and most-used secondary, possibly my favorite weapon in the game. 

So you want them to make your favorite weapon in the game objectively worse?

 

33 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

  It was a fine weapon before.

No, not really, it was quite a poor secondary weapon, that's why no one used it until the buff

 

33 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

  Please return it to its pre-buff state.  Please only return it to its prebuff state.

So you want them to Nerf it? I thought nerfs were bad.

Why not, instead of nerfing the weapon, they re-balance it? Or is that not what they already did when they boosted its AoE and literally nothing else?

[Tiltskillet]

18 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

Why not, instead of nerfing the weapon, they re-balance it? Or is that not what they already did when they boosted its AoE and literally nothing else?

Well, as far as re-balancing it, they should make it so there's a reason to charge shots up again, instead of just spamming.  Now, in return for shorter range , slower velocity, and higher ammo consumption, charging gets you...less damage over time?  With the same AoE as uncharged?  Yeah, that seems balanced, lol.

My guess is  completely uncharged shots deserve a revert and fully charged a buff--but I'm just a random tiltskillet with all kinds of crazy guesses about things I have no business guessing about.  If DE decided to  "re-balance" it by increasing the damage and radius of charged shots without doing anything to uncharged, hey!...I wouldn't complain.

edit, for reference:

Spoiler

The patch note for the change was "Increased charged shot AoE size from 2m to 8m and is no longer affected by charge level."  The only way the wording makes any kind of sense is if they  intended to  only address the behavior of partially charged shots, which up to that point had varied in size with the level of charge.

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Tiltskillet
Coherence +.003%

[TyrianMollusk]

12 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

So you want them to make your favorite weapon in the game objectively worse?

Yes, when the current state is objectively, ridiculously overpowered.  The huge AoE is absurd and over-strong.  People are already getting talking about this.

12 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

No, not really, it was quite a poor secondary weapon, that's why no one used it until the buff

I used it extensively.  It was really strong as well as fun to use.  People don't use it because they don't enjoy the mechanics, which is perfectly reasonable given the odd firing mechanics and slow flight speed.  I enjoy the mechanics, so I know what a glorious death and CC flinging monster it always has been.

12 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

So you want them to Nerf it? I thought nerfs were bad.?

Unwarranted or inappropriate nerfs maybe (don't paint me as some homogenized dumb player stand-in -- nerfs can be good and bad), but it isn't a nerf to fix a mistake.  This change was a mistake.  Also, this mistake will have a price, and that price will be a nerf.  The weapon was good.  Giving it a stupidly strong AoE and then nerfing something else will wholly suck for the weapon.  Let it be what it was.  It did not need an even bigger area all the time.

As an additional point/example, the AoE is so excessive that it's harder in orb vallis to not kill beacons I want left around.  My control over and finesse with my weapon was reduced by this excessive and unwarranted upgrade.

I also don't think people really realize how ridiculously large the AoE is, since the weapon has no explosion effect to show it.  It always had an AoE, it was just reasonable.  This is not.

12 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

Why not, instead of nerfing the weapon, they re-balance it? Or is that not what they already did when they boosted its AoE and literally nothing else?

It was a quick band-aid to a weird problem (from what I understand, people using operator powers to charge the AoE into map-wiping absurdity).  It was done in haste and with clearly no real consideration.  The staticor is stupidly good now.  Too good.  It doesn't need a rebalance, and it certainly doesn't need a rebalance around a ridiculously large AoE that it just shouldn't have.  It needs a better, reasonable fix to the actual problem (AoE charging out of bounds) so it can return to its former, more appropriate level of goodness.

I've used a lot of secondaries, and it was actually in revisiting the staticor that it won me over (the default energy color is painfully bright and I didn't really try to get value out of it, so later when I was using specifically it for another silly reason, I found how much I just really enjoyed everything about it).  It needs to stay a thing, because there really isn't a substitute.

 

8 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

The wording of the patch note did said  "Increased charged shot AoE size from 2m to 8m and is no longer affected by charge level."  The only way the wording makes any kind of sense is if they  intended to  only change the behavior of partially charged shots, which up to that point had varied in size with the level of charge.

I think part of the issue is that there really isn't an "uncharged" shot, so when they set the AoE regardless of charge level, they just set the AoE for every possible firing.  Maybe if there were a transition point to "charging", so that a fast shot didn't have the boost, that would make some sense, but really, it seems more trouble than just capping the AoE at its intended level instead of whatever exploitable mechanic they used before.

I can agree that the charged shot isn't really worth the charge from an effect standpoint, but it's a fun, novel tool one can throw out and totally different from any other weapon.  It's like an ambush shot and you can do weird things like arrive alongside your shot or striking twice simultaneously (charged shot and well timed followup shots to catch up to it).  Yeah, it's not of serious practical value, but I would not want to lose that, even if it was to make the weapon on average somehow "better".

As I said, the staticor was just fine.  It needed no rebalancing, just a cap to the charge AoE.

[rainy]

I believe, like all other great AoE weapons in Warframe, the Staticor should inflict self-damage. To me that would make it a fair weapon to use.

[(PSN)bullet1351]

15 minutes ago, VhwatGoes said:

I believe, like all other great AoE weapons in Warframe, the Staticor should inflict self-damage. To me that would make it a fair weapon to use.

it would kill everybody who uses it. No one uses self damage weapons cause the risk is not worth the reward

14 hours ago, TyrianMollusk said:

The AoE is excessively large now.

The intention appears to be to have a counter to the arbitration drones so the weapon is working as intended.

As for it being OP DE main issue is when people use a mechanic to not play the game. Things can crazy strong but as long as there is not a way to abuse it in a way that is unhealthy for the game its fine and that's what we have here. A high damage AoE weapon that can hit an 8 meter area has to be aimed and does not hurt anyone elses experience. By DE's past nerf logic they should leave it.

[Guest]

I don't even use the Staticor and don't intend to build it again (yes, I have mastered it to rank 30, you are free to check my profile). That being said, I see no issues with the current damage radius. It may look OP on places like Hydron or if you are using booben's Vortex but bring it to the Plains or something, it's not that amazing anymore.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Guest

[TyrianMollusk]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)bullet1351 said:

The intention appears to be to have a counter to the arbitration drones so the weapon is working as intended.

I used it in arbitrations, and no it did not need an AoE boost.  It was done to put down an exploit (not an exploit that I ever used--I read about it when people were asking why it was changed), simple as that, and it was wholly unneeded.

Weapon balance is far more than "healthy for the game".  The new AoE was supposed to take effort and be delivered slowly.  Being about to wing shots that once required several seconds of charge each is a huge, unwarranted change, and I'm telling you as a serious user of the weapon, it is too much.  Not "kind of good" too much, but full-on "this is broken and unfair" too much.

[TyrianMollusk]

1 hour ago, VhwatGoes said:

I believe, like all other great AoE weapons in Warframe, the Staticor should inflict self-damage. To me that would make it a fair weapon to use.?

Quanta has no self-damage to its AoE, and no, this would be a wrong-headed "fix" and exactly the kind of thing that needs to be prevented from happening to the staticor.  It is supposed to have a reasonable, small AoE unless you pay the time to charge up the larger AoE, which balances itself because the charge time massively slows down your damage dealing.  That's all perfectly fair and it has a niche for its particular weapon-feel.  

Edit: just wanted to add in here, that self-damage instead of bring back the old AoE would remove entire ways of using the weapon.  Things I do with it, that bring me great joy and pleasure.  Only quanta and staticor let you catch up to your shots and attack with them, but quanta is totally different since its shots are too slow to really fire and catch up with.  You're always there with them, probably even ahead of them if you aren't operating really closely.  Being within 8m of staticor shots adds a lot of fun to the play.

I already have launcher secondaries and primaries if I want that particular risk-reward balance.

Edited November 18, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[TyrianMollusk]

24 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

I don't even use the Staticor and don't intend to build it again (yes, I have mastered it to rank 30, you are free to check my profile). That being said, I see no issues with the current damage radius. It may look OP on places like Hydron or if you are using booben's Vortex but bring it to the Plains or something, it's not that amazing anymore.

It takes nothing at all to level a weapon, so that's completely meaningless and not even worth thinking about verifying.  You don't use the weapon or know what using it is like.  I do.  You see no issue.  I do.

I use it in the plains and orb vallis.  All the time.  It's an issue.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TyrianMollusk said:

It takes nothing at all to level a weapon, so that's completely meaningless and not even worth thinking about verifying.  You don't use the weapon or know what using it is like.  I do.  You see no issue.  I do.

I use it in the plains and orb vallis.  All the time.  It's an issue.

Yeah, sure, sure, you can use it on the Plains and Orb Vallis, but 8 meters isn't much there, really. Even spin to win covers more ground overall and does more damage. I don't leech my way to higher weapon levels so I do know what the old Staticor was like and I have seen it in performance more than once after the "buff". Back then it was pretty much feeling like any other throwing weapon except with better AoE scaling with mods (because I am sure you know what is concealed explosives). The charge shot was completely pointless, really. If anything, I'd personally prefer that it be brought in line with all the throwing weapons and given an auto trigger, given a fixed radius, with the charge bound to M3 Tenora Style or completely removed. Really, I never used the charged shot anyway despite the AoE difference. Hitting enemies with the normal fire was way more effective even though it is carpal tunnel inducing.

But hey, because you are the Staticor master who uses it a lot you are the only one with the correct opinion here, right? Like only what you say is absolutely correct and anyone else can't have their own opinion. It's like me saying the Cycron needs a buff/nerf because ... I don't like the current mechanics and I use it for 50% of the content. Of course you are not allowed to disagree, because hey, you probably just ranked it to 30 and chucked it aside. Because I am the absolute authority on the Cycron and I don't accept your opinion.

Look, Staticor isn't just your gun. I am sure that many people are perfectly fine with the weapon as it is and not complaining.

[rainy]

1 hour ago, (PS4)bullet1351 said:

it would kill everybody who uses it. No one uses self damage weapons cause the risk is not worth the reward

The intention appears to be to have a counter to the arbitration drones so the weapon is working as intended.

As for it being OP DE main issue is when people use a mechanic to not play the game. Things can crazy strong but as long as there is not a way to abuse it in a way that is unhealthy for the game its fine and that's what we have here. A high damage AoE weapon that can hit an 8 meter area has to be aimed and does not hurt anyone elses experience. By DE's past nerf logic they should leave it.

It doesn't need to kill you thanks to the new Cautious Shot mod. You have the decision to sacrifice a mod slot for safety, or keep your insane damage in (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong please) the largest AoE of any weapon in the game. If that doesn't feel safe enough, reversing the AoE change is an option that gives the player very direct control over the AoE. Alternative to that point, reduce the AoE to ~6m, and allow the Fulmination AoE mod to be equipped, opening up another mod slot you have the choice of sacrificing.

It would be a bit forced of DE to balance Staticor to be the defacto anti-Arbitration Drone sidearm. When the mode was released, I investigated AoE weapons to deal with the drones. I played with the Pox, Torid, and Ogris. If I was DE this would have been my intention, to encourage the experimentation and use of these AoE weapons to deal with the drones, and with the release of the Cautious Shot mod, I believe it to be true.

The Staticor feels cheap because it does not carry the same risk or need to sacrifice any mod slots for it's massive AoE and lack of self-damage. I think it's state of balance does start to be unhealthy for the game if people feel they need to use this weapon in order to be effective in high-level missions. I see it in most of my missions, and just the sound of it starts to get to me now.

53 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Quanta has no self-damage to its AoE, and no, this would be a wrong-headed "fix" and exactly the kind of thing that needs to be prevented from happening to the staticor.  It is supposed to have a reasonable, small AoE unless you pay the time to charge up the larger AoE, which balances itself because the charge time massively slows down your damage dealing.  That's all perfectly fair and it has a niche for its particular weapon-feel.  

Interesting! I hadn't explored the Quanta yet, I think it would be particularly hazardous with self-damage as the explosives never travel far from you. But again Cautious Shot now exists to mitigate if that ever came to be. 

TyrianMollusk, your points all sound reasonable. The pre-buff Staticor was fair in my opinion. But if the AoE change remains as the direction DE wants the weapon to go, I think your fears may come true. I hope DE may find this thread and read your concern. The weapon is overused, and something is going to change.

[TyrianMollusk]

21 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

But hey, because you are the Staticor master who uses it a lot you are the only one with the correct opinion here, right? Like only what you say is absolutely correct and anyone else can't have their own opinion.

No, but it's pretty silly to come in all "I used it once, briefly, and even though I don't use it and say things that are explicitly wrong about using it, I don't think there's any issue."  I mean, it's my most used secondary, and that's from displacing other weapons, not getting picked up early on.  You can have whatever opinion you like, but it's not based on use or on the current version.  It'd be like me weighing in about whiskey.  Sure, I don't drink whiskey, but I smelled it a few times, so I feel my opinion is worth interjecting over someone else's.

You say "Try that in the plains and you'll see".  Well, I use it in the plains all the time.  I don't have to guess, because I know exactly what it does and how it feels.  No, I don't spin to win.  I have no problem if other people use their tools to do ridiculously excessive amounts of damage and AoE.  I do have a problem with a unique weapon being blindly changed to excess levels, and I will definitely have a problem with it getting nerfed back into line sometime later, like spin to win is probably about to get.  Mainly, though, it's just really obvious that the AoE is out-of-whack now and needs to be brought back to reasonable levels.  I mean, I just recently saw people describing it as a secondary lenz without self-damage.

 

28 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Look, Staticor isn't just your gun. I am sure that many people are perfectly fine with the weapon as it is and not complaining.

Many people are perfectly fine nuking the entire map while AFK.  I don't give a flip what people who never cared about it think about adding it to their stupidly-overpowered tool pile.  People very rarely have the sense to complain about something being too strong.  You could make some prime do 50x damage per shot and you wouldn't get complaints.  It wouldn't make it a good idea or a good change for the weapon.  And if they later drop the fire rate to "rebalance" it, soma fans would be pretty upset, but could take it or move to another bullet hose.

I've only got the one staticor in the game, and yeah I use it enough to tell when a change doesn't fit.  It's been bugging me ever since the change went live.  This level of AoE is silly for it.

[TyrianMollusk]

27 minutes ago, VhwatGoes said:

It doesn't need to kill you thanks to the new Cautious Shot mod.

See, now that is a very distinct nerf.  I would have the "option" to sacrifice damage and an entire mod slot in order to undo something that shouldn't have been done in the first place, and you still even take self damage!  That's lowering the viability of the weapon as a weapon.  Definitely couldn't use it as many places like that, which pretty much means it's a false option.

Cautious Shot is, frankly, a bad thing for the game exactly because it undermines talking about the problem with balancing certain weapons using self-damage.  Like you said, sure CS exists so the quanta could be made self damage, but that isn't a real player choice, so justifying with it would be awful for the weapon, and patently unfair to quanta users.  Cautious Shot is basically saying "You can enjoy this weapon how it ought to work, as long as you stick to significantly reduced enemy levels where it doesn't matter anyway."  It's a weird QoL gimmick that should not motivate change or balance.

For general discussion reference, the angstrum has a 3m radius explosion.  Staticor had 2m uncharged, and I really don't think any of its users complained about that, because honestly that was on the generous side.  I certainly had no trouble hitting arbitration drones (slow moving targets, after all).

Thanks for the support and understanding.  I really don't think the AoE is a "direction" from DE or had anything to do with arbitrations.  It was a quick fix to an exploit, done with little real concern either way.  Frankly, they probably don't know the weapon enough to realize.  It's not exactly common or like anything else we have.  Most people just react positively to something getting a big buff, so not much to worry about.  I can only hope they will revert and fix the AoE scaling problem before too many people get married to the overdone range, but there's the serious problem of newfound popularity (from being overpowered--I'll wager many probably don't even like using it) leading them to go a different direction with it, and just writing off people who enjoyed it when it was reasonably tuned.

[Robolaser]

Currently, if we only take effectiveness in consideration, there's no reason to use any other secondary even against level 120+ enemies. Well modded, without a riven, it easily surpasses other secondaries equipped with one. I'm talking about actual misssions, not simulacrum tests although it'll dominate most of the arsenal there too.

On top of being extremely powerful and easy to use, it has no downside, not even travel time because precision isn't required anyway.

Not asking for a nerf, but then as i suggested in antother thread please at least consider buffing other AoE weapons' radius up to something comparably good (astilla, stug, torid, angstrum for example all have very small AoE radius on top of many other drawbacks)

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1025224-please-consider-buffing-these-weapons-aoe-radius/?tab=comments#comment-10282384

------

Il y a 4 heures, VhwatGoes a dit :

I believe, like all other great AoE weapons in Warframe, the Staticor should inflict self-damage. To me that would make it a fair weapon to use.

Sounds like an acceptable tradeoff and compromise to me.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Robolaser

[YagoXiten]

20 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

So you want them to make your favorite weapon in the game objectively worse?

 

No, not really, it was quite a poor secondary weapon, that's why no one used it until the buff

 

So you want them to Nerf it? I thought nerfs were bad.

Why not, instead of nerfing the weapon, they re-balance it? Or is that not what they already did when they boosted its AoE and literally nothing else?

Those of you arguing against a revert clearly didn't use the weapon before. The recent change was a nerf. The weapon feels awful to use now.

[wolf96781]

2 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

Those of you arguing against a revert clearly didn't use the weapon before. The recent change was a nerf. The weapon feels awful to use now.

Nope! I used it before the change and it sucked so hard that it pulled Lua through a straw. Now it's actually decent enough to use

[YagoXiten]

4 hours ago, wolf96781 said:

Nope! I used it before the change and it sucked so hard that it pulled Lua through a straw. Now it's actually decent enough to use

Before it was changed the uncharged shots had a 2m radius whilst a fully charged shot had a radius of about 16m. The design of the weapon was such that you had to choose between the precision and higher damage per second of uncharged shots or the massive area of effect and burst damage of the charged shots. Uncharged shots were far less ammo efficient but easier to aim, whilst the charged shots were unwieldy but great for conserving ammo.

Now there's literally zero advantage to charged shots. The projectile travels slowly, the damage is far less substantial than just spamming uncharged shots, and it isn't even more ammo efficient now that the AoE is the same size.

Edited November 19, 2018 by YagoXiten

[AnatharsWrath]

if it was decided to be nerfed id be fine with it its uncharged shot being put down to 3-4m and charge shot keeping 8m (or 10) with an minor improved charge damage multiplier so charging the shot would be worth it for large squads of enemies but single quick shots would be good for a cluster of 2 or 4 enemies.

Alternatively make the charge faster and nerf range back to normal (making charge shots much easier to use for Aoe.

But until the nerf happens ill continue to use it in orb vallis as it makes the bounties less tedious.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

Before it was changed the uncharged shots had a 2m radius whilst a fully charged shot had a radius of about 16m.

Was that maybe a while back and not just with Chimera a month ago?  The 8m it is now seems about the maximum I ever got, but I didn't pick up the Staticor until after the weapons overhaul early in the year.

[TyrianMollusk]

6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Was that maybe a while back and not just with Chimera a month ago?

Probably just misstating the 16m-wide area.

Charged shots continuously cost ammo while charging or being held, so I wouldn't call them efficiency oriented.

Edited November 19, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[YagoXiten]

6 hours ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Probably just misstating the 16m-wide area.

Charged shots continuously cost ammo while charging or being held, so I wouldn't call them efficiency oriented.

I've used the Staticor a lot. It's one of my favorite weapons. The AoE of fully charged shots used to be higher before this update. I even went and checked an old video by AGGP where he confirms this.

[TyrianMollusk]

19 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

I've used the Staticor a lot. It's one of my favorite weapons. The AoE of fully charged shots used to be higher before this update. I even went and checked an old video by AGGP where he confirms this.

The single only mention of range there is talking about the charge shot "maxing out at approximately 15 to 20 meters [diameter area]".  You know what is decidedly not "approximately 15-20m"?  32m.  You know what, however, does fit as approximately 15-20m?  16m, otherwise known as the 8m radius it already was before this change.  The wiki entry from December 2016 also mentions the 8m max radius.

Gah, that was really painful to listen to.  If you're going to link to idiot yammering like that to make your case for you, at least have the decency to say where in the video something relevant is actually said so people don't have to suffer through as much to find the part you're misrepresenting.

Edited November 20, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[YagoXiten]

50 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

The single only mention of range there is talking about the charge shot "maxing out at approximately 15 to 20 meters [diameter area]".  You know what is decidedly not "approximately 15-20m"?  32m.  You know what, however, does fit as approximately 15-20m?  16m, otherwise known as the 8m radius it already was before this change.  The wiki entry from December 2016 also mentions the 8m max radius.

Fair point. I was tired and mixed up radius and diameter, largely because no one ever gives diameter when talking about Warframe so I misunderstood what Rob meant. I'm going to guess the area felt a bigger before due to the contrast between uncharged and charged shots. Regardless, point still stands that this 'buff' makes the charged shots pretty much a strict downgrade from the uncharged ones which kind of spits in the face of the weapon's design.

50 minutes ago, TyrianMollusk said:

Gah, that was really painful to listen to.  If you're going to link to idiot yammering like that to make your case for you, at least have the decency to say where in the video something relevant is actually said so people don't have to suffer through as much to find the part you're misrepresenting.

And this was painful to read. If you're going yammer like this to correct a misunderstanding at least have the decency to do so without being so petulant. Respect goes a long way.

[TyrianMollusk]

44 minutes ago, YagoXiten said:

And this was painful to read. If you're going yammer like this to correct a misunderstanding at least have the decency to do so without being so petulant.

I corrected the misunderstanding when I said you were mixing up width and radius.  You insisted and put me through that awful video just to come to yep, you mixed up width and radius.  Respect would be checking your terms when you're wrong instead of linking a video you didn't bother to notice isn't saying what you said and insisting you're right.  Respect  would be saying when in the video your evidence can be found, so I waste less of my time fixing your repeated mistake.  Respect  would be accepting the thrashing you deserve for that video instead of getting snotty about it.