Dps - Ruins The Fun

[Lord.Finster]

Ignorance is not bliss.

DE leaves us in the dark enough as it is concerning stats. Most stuff we know comes from people who have mined this data.

 

This is a game about fixed numbers, not random chances (unless it's about loot).

Not knowing those numbers drives me insane at times.

If I have a character with stats I want access to this knowledge.

If I have to rely on chances I need to know my odds, otherwise I have to rely on uninformed choices that help noone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like both types of games. I love dice games and I love RPG's.

But informed choices are always necessary.

[Eidolon_Slayer]

DPS is necessary as drop rates for blueprints ranged from uncommon to rare.

[MaxHardwood]

How does one..."remove dps and enemy life"?

Do you feel cheated because you don't put as much time understanding the rules of the game as much as another person? This is just like a board game -- certain rules apply in certain circumstances. Being ignorant of said rules is fine...I guess...but they are going to be applied to you regardless.

Or are we just going to turn this game into a 4 year old's game of cops and robbers? "I shot you! You're dead!" "No you didn't, I dodged!" "Yes huh" "Nuh uh".

Rules provide a framework for critical thinking. Hiding the rules does nothing but frustrate until you can reverse-engineer the rules. Ever play that terrible, terrible game of...Maw? Some card game where no one knows the rules until they break them. Its frustrating and only good for people who are looking for the most superficial game possible where no thought is required of them.

EDIT: Waitamin...did I just get trolled? Surely OP isn't serious.

 

Perhaps address the issue presented rather than the person presenting it. This has nothing to do with my skill or anybody else's. This is a matter of immersion. There are ways of showing damage without raw data.

[Aure7]

How does one..."remove dps and enemy life"?

Do you feel cheated because you don't put as much time understanding the rules of the game as much as another person? This is just like a board game -- certain rules apply in certain circumstances. Being ignorant of said rules is fine...I guess...but they are going to be applied to you regardless.

Or are we just going to turn this game into a 4 year old's game of cops and robbers? "I shot you! You're dead!" "No you didn't, I dodged!" "Yes huh" "Nuh uh".

Rules provide a framework for critical thinking. Hiding the rules does nothing but frustrate until you can reverse-engineer the rules. Ever play that terrible, terrible game of...Maw? Some card game where no one knows the rules until they break them. Its frustrating and only good for people who are looking for the most superficial game possible where no thought is required of them.

EDIT: Waitamin...did I just get trolled? Surely OP isn't serious.

but that leads to everyone using the very best weapon with the very best mods because it's so easy to figure out. *cough* ACRID FOR F**K SAKE... *cough*

Edited September 12, 2013 by Aure7

[Arlayn]

See this is a good explanation, and would work a lot better if mobs had more than two states (alive, dead). It would make sense to have a percentage rather than a hard number. Also there already are visual cues when you're hitting an enemy that has shields, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch to have others depending on the damage.

However Tenno are engaged in the thick of combat. Tenno don't have time for percentages, or watching closely for clues... They are in high speed combat constantly, 10 guys gang up on a tenno. That Tenno needs to be able to perceive every inch of that battle going on around them, in a 360 system. They need to know when they die, how much damage was during the heat of combat, keep track of abilities, energy, health, shield, watch an enemy, attack, defend, move, evade... They have to constantly be on the move... Therefore their tech has been radically advanced to a level to consciously perceive the battles they enter at the speed of light as all this information is forced into their brain, or placed on a HUD in their helmets...

[N7Arthur]

Minmaxed builds are a lot more realistic. Again, I understand this is a video game, but empirical numbers don't make sense in any other context so why allow them here?

 

Also timing how long it takes, or how many shots it takes to kill x mob/boss, is something you'd do in real world situation.

In what real world situation do you have a giant infested and mutated monster that shoots psychic bolts at you which takes a ton of bullets to kill. And even if that was timed, why would that need to happen, unless things respawn in the real world. And you say DPS is bad, but agree with Min Maxing, which is the whole point of DPS. If numbers were removed, a dataminer would still get them, and people would still Min Max by getting the highest DPS from numbers.

[Sixty5]

Firstly as an Engineering I will state MATHS IS FUN

 

Secondly, It isn't hard to work out the best build. Damage, AP, Multishot, Cryo, Crits/Elementals, will work on any gun and will be the optimal build in any case.

 

Since numbers pop up in this game it wouldn't be overly hard to find stuff out, regardless of datamining. Also the more openness of stats makes it much easier to work out mechanics, which often give much more benefit than a specific build.

[honeybadger]

but that leads to everyone using the very best weapon with the very best mods because it's so easy to figure out. *cough* ACRID FOR F**K SAKE... *cough*

If you obscure the information, we are going to end up at the same place. Just because the damage on the Acrid isn't listed, doesnt mean that we cant obviously tell its the best pistol. It just may take a bit of time to figure out HOW MUCH BETTER it is.

Hiding information isn't going to stop min/maxers, just slow them temporarily.

Perhaps address the issue presented rather than the person presenting it. This has nothing to do with my skill or anybody else's. This is a matter of immersion. There are ways of showing damage without raw data.

Wat? Its a matter of immersion? " but it's hard to say because there wouldn't be any actual numbers to base it off of. It opens the field for other weapons to be used more and balanced better."

I am arguing that what you stated is FALSE. It doesnt open up any additional options. Behind a game, there are numbers. No matter how hard you try and hide those numbers, they are still applied. If I hide damage numbers, its not going to magically make my Lato better than my Acrid. In a game where you have options for weapons, you are GOING to figure out which of those weapons is better. Whether you act on that information or not is your choice, but hiding numbers doesnt do anything for anyone.

One of the critical design fundamentals in games is feedback. Shooting something and seeing nothing happen until at some point the enemy dies is bad design. Remember back in the day when clients didn't display full damage numbers? There were all sorts of complaints that the game was broken for clients and that I can't use elemental mods and whatnot as a client. Turns out, damage numbers just werent being displayed. Because of that lack of feedback, people went haywire and started blaming things that were not even close to the actual cause.

Feedback is good. Knowing you are damaging an enemy is good. Knowing that a level 100 grineer doesnt give two damns about your unmodded Lato is GOOD in a PvE game that is based on incremental improvements.

Being able to turn OFF said feedback is one thing, but I have a feeling it wont be widely used. Do you see many people turn off all damage numbers in Diablo 3? Nope, not often, there is a reason.

Edited September 12, 2013 by honeybadger

[Arlayn]

infact it is possible that the warframe places a Tenno on a whole new revolutionary level of consciousness that mere man cannot perceive. Almost like time is moving real time, but at the same time slow mo, as information is entering their mind at the speed of light. Hence the 3rd person view. Its like a psychic sense. The ability to perceive all actions in an environment. One second they are punching someone in the face and then almost as if time slowed down they can see it, feel it, perceive an enemy coming in from behind... Time feels as if it slowed... and with all their might, and reaction time they move to get out of the way, or attack first...

 

I feel the numbers, and health bar should stay on enemies... its what makes this a revolutionary look at sci-fi the ultimate sense of battle... The Artificial, and maybe even a spiritual third eye in battle... creating 4 eyes if they are truly a master of martial arts... the two eyes they use to natural perceive the world around them..., the third eye of science, the fourth eye of the soul...

[N7Arthur]

Perhaps address the issue presented rather than the person presenting it. This has nothing to do with my skill or anybody else's. This is a matter of immersion. There are ways of showing damage without raw data.

You are a space ninja in an exosuit. If this thing didn't monitor my health, the damage I do to enemies, how hurt they are and show them to me in a simple format such as numbers, then my immersion would be ruined, in my opinion, that's when something is off. Honestly, they should even include the amount of health the enemy you are aiming has in numbers too, not just a bar, so we can judge if our weapon is good enough against them, and see how much they scale per lvl.

[MaxHardwood]

You are a space ninja in an exosuit. If this thing didn't monitor my health, the damage I do to enemies, how hurt they are and show them to me in a simple format such as numbers, then my immersion would be ruined, in my opinion, that's when something is off. Honestly, they should even include the amount of health the enemy you are aiming has in numbers too, not just a bar, so we can judge if our weapon is good enough against them, and see how much they scale per lvl.

 

 

I suppose the issue boils down to empircal numbers. If you were shot, there is no "you've been dealt this much damage and you have 10hp left". But you could come up with a percentage of how messed up you are and close to death. The suit should be able to do that about the enemies, granted. No matter how advanced technology gets, there wont be damage points and hit points to living organisms.

[honeybadger]

I suppose the issue boils down to empircal numbers. If you were shot, there is no "you've been dealt this much damage and you have 10hp left". But you could come up with a percentage of how messed up you are and close to death.

Percentages are numbers. Now you are arguing that we are using the wrong UNITS for numbers.

[Arlayn]

Percentages are numbers. Now you are arguing that we are using the wrong UNITS for numbers.

numbers, are numbers, are numbers... what is a number? a numerical value... what is a percentage? a numerical value... what is a numerical value? something made up of numbers...

[honeybadger]

numbers, are numbers, are numbers... what is a number? a numerical value... what is a percentage? a numerical value... what is a numerical value? something made up of numbers...

But if I close my eyes and don't look at them, they no longer affect me! Yay!

[Arlayn]

But if I close my eyes and don't look at them, they no longer affect me! Yay!

that's like saying time won't effect you, or the rotational value of the earth won't effect you, or the gravitational force caused by the moon getting closer to the earth won't effect you, or the trajectory of an asteroid that could plummet to earth won't effect you.

[Blatantfool]

 You guys need to just calm down a bit and listen to some nice music.

 

 

 

 What would removing things like health or damage numbers present to gameplay? I cannot think of any real value. When you start to argue that Realism > Gameplay I just can't follow your train of thought.

[azntrigboi]

"Measure what is measurable, and make measurable what is not." Even if such things don't have inherent numerical values, you can always produce a metric that produces one that captures the essence of what you are looking at.

Edited September 12, 2013 by azntrigboi

[honeybadger]

that's like saying time won't effect you, or the rotational value of the earth won't effect you, or the gravitational force caused by the moon getting closer to the earth won't effect you, or the trajectory of an asteroid that could plummet to earth won't effect you.

If I post enough times on the forums and close my eyes really tight. None of that will. Its a fact.

[honeybadger]

You guys need to just calm down a bit and listen to some nice music.

 

Looped for the next 20 minutes. Thank you sir.

(Also, your new avatar throws me off -- who is this EMBER telling me what to do...oh...yes sir.)

Edited September 12, 2013 by honeybadger

[Deicul]

This is a single most idiotic thing I've read today, congratulations!

[Wallace24]

I too find that the DPS craze is silly. yeah, I can max fire rate and just a damage build so that my DPS is highest, but I think you have to look at it more practically. I've been ratcheting down gunslinger on my despair in favor of, well, more damage mods, but I haven't calculated how it will affect the DPS. it might be less, but my rationale is that I'm not going to be firing it that fast, I go more for accuracy (generally), so I don't need max fire rate. yeah, I'll put some fire rate on there, but I don't need the max. 

 

on a more meta level, health bars and such never made much sense to me. especially if you take out enemies in one hit, and it takes them twenty to kill you. with bullets. come on. however, since we are some sort of advanced lifeform/ninja-robot, the shielding is fine, and even a quantifiable "health bar" could be justified

[Arlayn]

If I post enough times on the forums and close my eyes really tight. None of that will. Its a fact.

If you post enough times it will become a number, that I can count... thus creating numbers...

[honeybadger]

If you post enough times it will become a number, that I can count... thus creating numbers...

FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

[MaxHardwood]

Percentages are numbers. Now you are arguing that we are using the wrong UNITS for numbers.

 

I never argued that numbers are bad. I pointed out using empirical numbers don't make sense.

 

It's logical to say, "based on the number of this kind of creature we have seen, we can safely estimate it's health/ability to performe acitons at 100%". But to come up with an exact number for health and damage is just nonsense.

[Zakalwe]

I never argued that numbers are bad. I pointed out using empirical numbers don't make sense.

 

It's logical to say, "based on the number of this kind of creature we have seen, we can safely estimate it's health/ability to performe acitons at 100%". But to come up with an exact number for health and damage is just nonsense.

 

If you can accept "space ninjas" and all the other sci-fi silliness, then you should be able to accept advanced technology that can read "empirical" based damage displays, surely?

Edited September 12, 2013 by Zakalwe