How To Achieve Balance And Avoid Nerfing?

[LukeAura]

We have enough orbs. All the orbs. And then they added Vauban and went, "He throws ORBS!" And then added Nova and went "Hey everyone! MORE orbs!" We are drowning in a pool of colourful orbs right now.
Killing enemies is a good idea, but do realize most ultimates are about mass killing enemies. So you either get a recharge from your ulti to use it again. Or you're left without it entirely and hopefully you will have a backup skill if the next map tile also has a copious amount of enemies swarming at you.  
 

[Tsukinoki]

@OP

CDs were used very early in this games CBT. They didn't work then and I seriously doubt that they would work now.

Why? Because it slowed down gameplay to an utter crawl and made it completely boring.

How did it do this?

In 90% of games what would happen is that people would spawn and wait in the spawn for their CDs to refresh initially. They would run up to the first room with enemies and spam all of their abilities and wipe it out.

What would then happen is that people would wait in that room for all of their CDs to refresh again, they would run into the next room and repeat again. Endlessly.

That was all missions were and it was boring as hek. People waiting outside of doors just to use their abilities in the next room. Each mission took 10 to 15 minutes longer than it needed to with a CD mechanic.

DE removed the CDs because it slowed down gameplay too much so I dont think they'll go back to that.

[Paprika]

-snip-

I haven't seen the solar idea. Link please.

[Eisvogel]

@OP

CDs were used very early in this games CBT. They didn't work then and I seriously doubt that they would work now.

Why? Because it slowed down gameplay to an utter crawl and made it completely boring.

How did it do this?

In 90% of games what would happen is that people would spawn and wait in the spawn for their CDs to refresh initially. They would run up to the first room with enemies and spam all of their abilities and wipe it out.

What would then happen is that people would wait in that room for all of their CDs to refresh again, they would run into the next room and repeat again. Endlessly.

That was all missions were and it was boring as hek. People waiting outside of doors just to use their abilities in the next room. Each mission took 10 to 15 minutes longer than it needed to with a CD mechanic.

DE removed the CDs because it slowed down gameplay too much so I dont think they'll go back to that.

 

Well, CBT is what i would hardly call a big enough player pool to measure anything.... and what you are describing is a player choice, not a force gameplay style. I personally wouldn't slow my pace just because i can't clean every room at the press of a single key.

 

In 90% of defense games, people bug spawn points, stop protecting the pod to compete for kills or AFK if they can't..... so we should get rid of defense or online mode? I don't think that's the way to go..... but hey, that's just my opinion

[lautalocos]

Nerfs are good for the game in the long run, they make it so the game isn't impossible for a new player to have fun. Cooldowns are a bad idea for this game since it slows down the flow, CD's work in wow and league since combat is infrequent, but in warframe you're going to be fighting constantly till the end of the mission.

games like mass effect have cooldowns and the combat doesn´t feel slow at all

[taiiat]

De should have taken the second route from the start. We have 3 other powers we can spam to hek, and it keeps the game power based.

not all 4th slot powers are that amazingly powerful, or even combat oriented. just because it costs more energy, doesn't mean it needs to be some boring AoE blast. we can make better powers than that. 

as far as i'm concerned, the problem lies in how the effects of the power is applied, not necessarily that it is doing it. if a power is an AoE blast of XXXX damage, it's going to appear a lot more powerful than if it is XX/s for X seconds, but adding up to the same amount. doing damage over time though, means that it will kill it eventually, but it's not just wiping the room instantly. it appears a lot different, and feels a lot different.

 

games like mass effect have cooldowns and the combat doesn´t feel slow at all

there's also a visceral gearing system in ME3MP where players balance their guns with cooldown reductions. so people are choosing the cooldowns. 

gameplay also doesn't feel slow there, because frankly, the enemy count in ME3MP is a lot less than in Warframe. because most of the enemies there, are a lot less trashy than in Warframe. Warframe is more than 70% trash enemies that don't really add any difficulty. they take up a whole lot of space in the map with their sheer numbers, but they still don't provide much of a threat. (while in contrast, in ME3MP pretty much every enemy type is somewhat dangerous, though usually in just a few ways, rather than all of them).

 

ex. - those Cerberus Assault Troopers. basically trash enemies, right? well, only sort of. their guns aren't that dangerous, but if you let them get up close, their melee's will quickly break your shield. so if you get flanked and one melee's you while you're dealing with other enemies, that one enemy has actually been pretty effective. 

 

until the trash enemies are made more dangerous, and the enemy numbers thusly lowered, i don't think cooldowns can really fit with Warframes' pace. that sheer number of enemies makes Warframes' pace more frantic than playing a shooter with 512 slot matches. 

there's just too many enemies, and thusly too much constant combat to make cooldowns not slow players down. it would turn into WoW or something similar :/ players would clear a room in the 'dungeon' they're in, wait near the door to the next room until all players have 'cooled down', then move on to the next room.

Edited September 13, 2013 by taiiat

[r3dzer0]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38594-energy-overhaul-introducing-a-new-system/ for anyone who wants to read.  this really is a well thought out system

[Walkampf]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38594-energy-overhaul-introducing-a-new-system/ for anyone who wants to read.  this really is a well thought out system

Wow... now that's what i call thinking about something.

There is actual effort in this.

He even thought about the problems, and wasn't even afraid to write them down.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Walkampf

[r3dzer0]

Like i said, he took the sides of both worlds and incorporated it.  it was a hard thread to find, but hopefully everyone can help resurrect the idea

[Walkampf]

Yeah, i already voted it up and wrote something to push it up in the list.

That's the least i could do.

[r3dzer0]

side note on this apparently de has figured out how to avoid nerfing! they just release subpar frames gated behind ten tons of content. 

 

on  a more serious note, solar energy system could balance out the majority of issues while still maintaining run n gun fast(er not so much now cuz of stam changes) play.

[Inberun]

I have an example that DE could balance without nerfing but they didnt

 

Saryn's Molt Duration Nerf and Vauban's Bastille Nerf. They could just add a ranged infested instead of nerfing those 2 powers.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Crimson_King256

[Malaheart]

Buffs and nerfs are two sides to the same coin. You can't keep moving the bar up forever or else the numbers will do nothing but go up.

[r3dzer0]

most abilities, minus all but one of embers and a few other stragglers, do fairly well.  The idea though is that they will nerf the ones that excel.  Bastille is a prime example, and Venom( whether it was intended or not). people can say bastille was broken in any map, but honestly where are you going to be other than in defense or survival that a legion of infested/grineer/corpus are breathing down your backside.  Even 16 mobs at the same time don't seem to show up in all the other types(at least not often). Nerfs are being deliberately based around defense which should be a no--no from the getgo. 

I do agree with you though mala, can't keep making people stronger forever. 

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Additionally to your point, i also believe some of the changes came from pvp..... like rhino and trinity changes.... but who knows

[gell]

I do not support this. I support balance, but not with cooldowns.

 

Cooldowns always limit play options. It may be a popular method to balance abilities, especially in MMOs or all the way back to some old isometric games, but it's always limiting, in a way that has always felt bad to me.

 

e.g.

In TERA, the game is built to be relatively fast compared to your typical WoW or Guild Wars 2. Some of the classes have abilities with 2 second cooldowns or less. This sounds like it's fast enough, right? But it doesn't make sense in terms of responsiveness. When you look like you're able to do a move but you're off by 0.1 seconds because the cooldown is still going, it feels terrible. Granted almost every game has hidden cooldowns (one could argue reloading a gun is a cooldown, or the time between each swing of the gram is a cooldown), but they are synchronized to animation. When it's not synced to animation, it feels bad, and that's about as simple as it gets. The only time a cooldown is acceptable to me is if the ability is so huge, and the devs are still being lazy, then a cooldown isn't the worst thing in the world, but even then there are more creative ways to handle this.

 

I would suggest something here, but there's no point because it's just completely different ideas. I don't think any form of cooldown needs to exist for the abilities. I'd be more interested in building momentum/meter or desperation moves that act as ultimates, but this isn't the place for me to make that post. If you are looking for less radical changes, I think adding more buffs and debuffs will help a lot with the growth in this game. Instead of everything being about "damage" the utilities will be important due to how difficult things may be without them.

Edited September 16, 2013 by gell

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Well, besides the non-challenging and skill-less way that pure stat games are.... the fact that we can spam abilities, is what makes everything in the game a joke honestly... you should at least be able to see that in the current gameplay. "New end boss super bla bla".... what a joke golem was..... 54 seconds was all it took...... the very same day it got released, we farmed nekros without a single challenging aspect about it.... and we have been done with the golem for good now.

 

But if you can think of something better even completely different, by all means, post it.... or link it if you make a thread.

[Lunarez]

Well, besides the non-challenging and skill-less way that pure stat games are.... the fact that we can spam abilities, is what makes everything in the game a joke honestly... you should at least be able to see that in the current gameplay. "New end boss super bla bla".... what a joke golem was..... 54 seconds was all it took...... the very same day it got released, we farmed nekros without a single challenging aspect about it.... and we have been done with the golem for good now.

But if you can think of something better even completely different, by all means, post it.... or link it if you make a thread.

Just make J2k doesn't take slow and statis effect from Rhino, Nova, and Frost, and it's become challenging. Challenging is not about a bulletsponge or massive damage and J2k presents a good boss-fight mechanic really well. And I'm still happy to face it more than facing Kril and Vor.

And I'll like this more https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/96585-t-n-d-suggestion-energy-system/

It's the middle ground between no CD and Fixed CD. It's also only effect in Defense missions that most people keep spamming up powers.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Lunarez

[Eisvogel]

It's the middle ground between no CD and Fixed CD. It's also only effect in Defense missions that most people keep spamming up powers.

 

That's true.... because that's the only missions played by anyone :P, as well as some mobile defenses (which is almost the same in practice) and now survivals too (spam much? :3 :P)

[Triburos]

My thoughts; we're space ninjas.

Generic soldiers, nerds with guns and Dead Space rejects should be no match for any of us.

Buff everything until everyone is evenly overpowered! Everyone is happy.

Game not enough of a challenge? Buff the enemies and bosses! BUFF THE EVERYTHING.

That's how I'd run things. But that's exactly why I'm not in DE offices right now balancing stuff.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Triburos

[Arunasoul]

300 armor ignoring damage for everything in front of you, even through walls, with a near instant cast and no target limit isn't OP? I can cast it 4 times and do 1200 damage to a group of 20 enemies each through a wall. and you failed to take Focus into account. 390 per pull. 390*4 = 1560, which isn't bad, even for the standards of an ultimate. Note that this is unaffected by any resistances, unlike most ultimates which are ineffective versus certain factions.

I'm not saying it needs to be destroyed, but for 25 energy a pop, 300 guaranteed damage is ridiculous compared to any other 1st power. Nobody else can do that much damage for that cheap.

Saryn can kill entire levels on 25 energy, if you do it right. Though I've heard that was dealt with... I have yet to see how......

[TheHeraldXII]

Um, adjusting the cooldowns is nerfing and buffing. Except with this system you only have one value that can be altered so what if the balance issue lies within another value, now you can't appropriately balance the skill.

Basically it has all the disadvantages of the system you want to get away with and some new ones thrown in for good measue.

[Eisvogel]

Saryn can kill entire levels on 25 energy, if you do it right. Though I've heard that was dealt with... I have yet to see how......

 

Venom was nerfed heavily, hurting the souls of skilled players that were able to pull that kind of tricks with venom

[Stormquake]

Cooldowns can be implemented easily in a fast paced game, you just make them so that they reward the player for tactical use of their abilities. Such as lowering cooldowns for direct hits or hitting a certain amount of enemies. To the people who don't want cooldowns, you're just thinking of at as a completely static number (which I mean, for some frames, there should be non-changing cooldowns, cough cough, Nova, cough cough), but say you put a cooldown on Excalibur's slash dash, but made it go down for every enemy hit along the way, promoting good use of the move, but not allowing it to just be relentlessly spammed.

[Oishii]

My thoughts; we're space ninjas.

Generic soldiers, nerds with guns and Dead Space rejects should be no match for any of us.

Buff everything until everyone is evenly overpowered! Everyone is happy.

Game not enough of a challenge? Buff the enemies and bosses! BUFF THE EVERYTHING.

That's how I'd run things. But that's exactly why I'm not in DE offices right now balancing stuff.

One of the MMO's I played did this. Everyone was raging on the forums that one of the characters got nerfed when they heard the word nerf. Then suddenly someone pointed out it was actually a buff..... (12% more damage) and all the rage went away, but  in the same patch enemies got their hp raised by 30% and most other characters damage got buffed 30-80%. Whenever someone tried to bring up the issue, 90% of the community couldn't understand the buff was actually a nerf... it amazed me how many people couldnt see this and how quickly the community's mood changed.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Oishii