PvP that could actually work and be fun!

[StiviRibar]

Lets just start off by agreeing that the current pvp is NOT fun.

Nobody logs in into Warframe with the mindset of "Boy oh boy I can't wait to play some PvP".

Part of the reason is, at least for me, is that it is to bloody chaotic. Not to mention the nightmare of balance, since we have so many damn weapons in the game.

The lack of good PvP is also part of the reason why Warframe has bad or no endgame! Lets be real, what do you do in any MMORPG once you finish all the raids and max your builds with legendary weapons and armor? You go PvP of course, that's how you pass the time and have fun while you wait for new PvE content to drop.

So how to make PvP worthy of this game?

Make the conclave OPERATOR only!

Now the first thing that might come to mind would be the balance issue with void mode. But this wouldn't be the case as you can think of void mode like Limbos plane. When both operators are in the void mode they can still see each other and void blast each other out of it.

Operator PvP ! Simple, easy to balance, FUN!

What do you guys think?

 

[(PSN)ForcedSin_erity]

All the way with you untill you mention Operator.

Operators would probably be even more chaotic.

 

•dash in a blink of an eye(thats 6+ players dashing all over the place non stop).

•Intant death(Operators have low health).

•Walking/running big mistake.

They gotta balance what we already have.

As much as enjoy playing Framefighter(my pvp until conclave gets balanced) they should have spent that time giving at least a crumb of love towards conclave, i will also feel the same way when stalker mode comes out.

 

 

 

 

[Femuru]

i would of liked a big pvp scene in warframe honestly but i have a feeling it would maybe be too big a mountain for DE to tackle since movement and abilities look like chaos to properly balance out but if they straight remove some of em then mayyyyyybe. also no operators i hate running around in my child form lol

[StiviRibar]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)FarCript said:

Operators would probably be even more chaotic.

•dash in a blink of an eye(thats 6+ players dashing all over the place non stop).

•Intant death(Operators have low health).

•Walking/running big mistake.

I get where you are coming from but DE is no stranger to revamping things for PvP ( case and point, conclave stances)

- Dashing all over the place? Solution = Limit the amount of dashing you can do in a set amount of time. That way you would have to be strategic with your dashing.

- Instant death? Solution = Already have one. We have many ways of increasing our survivability via focus schools and arcanes. (Or, if focus and arcanes wouldnt be allowed in conclave, just make the amps deal less dmg to operators)

- Walking/ running? I thing this would be the number one reason why it WOULD work, since warframe combat is chaotic due to TO MUCH movement.

[taiiat]

i don't really see spacekid PvP being better than what we have as it is. the complete lack of Parkour is a massive mistake for me(missing the part that makes Warframe Warframe, the Weapons aren't really unique, only some of the Abilities are unique, but Parkour stands proud), but i'm not opposed to providing alternative options. just like how Lunaro is pretty neat aside from crazy Host advantage problems that Players don't experience in the entire rest of the game.

1 hour ago, StiviRibar said:

Lets just start off by agreeing that the current pvp is NOT fun.

 

Part of the reason is, at least for me, is that it is to bloody chaotic. Not to mention the nightmare of balance, since we have so many damn weapons in the game.

 

The lack of good PvP is also part of the reason why Warframe has bad or no endgame! Lets be real, what do you do in any MMORPG once you finish all the raids and max your builds with legendary weapons and armor? You go PvP of course, that's how you pass the time and have fun while you wait for new PvE content to drop.

but i don't agree. it's quite fun, as long as people aren't just farming Energy to get free Ability Kills or abusing certain Weapons that are too good to be true due to the Damage Types currently being too complex for Conclave to handle.
but when people are just playing? it's great. fully utilizing Parkour that is what actually makes the game different from the others, plus juggling Combat on top of that. i wholly enjoy that performing well in Conclave is heavily dependent on one's actual mastery of Combat in the game.

 

the most significant problems with Weapons lies in Damage Types, not that there are so many Weapons. outside of Damage Type issues, the Weapons are mostly relatively well balanced overall.

 

there's one of the reasons why i don't play traditional MMORPG's. because they don't provide compelling content and Players are left spending most of their time bored, trying to find something, anything to do.
games that don't have content for you to do? i either don't play them or when i realize that they don't have content, i stop playing them.

[Hobie-wan]

A lot of people enjoy Warframe exactly because it isn't PVP. There are a million other PVP flavored games crowding the market to go play if that's what you want to go. I'd rather they spend time on PVE things and quests.

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

farming Energy to get free Ability Kills

Have to emphasize this.

Parkour makes players harder to hit. In principle, that's fine* if it's equivalent to taking cover in a cover-based shooter. What you wouldn't do, from a design standpoint, is make taking cover charge up an offensive ult ability. Yet that's, effectively, what we have.

That doesn't even get into other problems with the energy pickup mechanic, like the fact that whether a particular ult is actually good depends on what the player brings in (contrast Quake / Doom where everything's on the literal table for anyone to pick up).

_{*Personally I would set speeds of manoeuvres and general movement much closer to each other. Putting "why" in simple terms of PvP (though it'd help PvE too): continuing an attack is often disadvantageous to the attacker, who has to pursue a target with parkour. Why? Bullet jumping at someone presents the head hitbox foremost and, since the retreater can fire backwards, they actually have an offensive boost while retreating. It's energy orbs all over again.}

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the most significant problems with Weapons lies in Damage Types, not that there are so many Weapons. outside of Damage Type issues, the Weapons are mostly relatively well balanced overall.

I will say that, while the team has done well balancing the weapons in Conclave, the constant influx of tweaks and changes to PvE (which can bleed over to PvP, cf. the Plasmor changes) makes keeping that a nightmare. They've done good overall, but the Staticor, for example, sure seems pretty popular in PvP now after its radius changes.

[Kontrollo]

Back when I played it, Conclave was pretty balanced. But that was 2 years ago and from what I've seen it's been neglected for a while, so I don't really know the state of things.

Also, we've had the option of running dedicated servers for over two years now. When people are willing to host these with decent equipment, there's no host advantage nor host migrations. (PC only, though.)

 

Operator only combat is probably not something I'd enjoy all that much, but you don't know until you've tried it, I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited February 19, 2019 by Kontrollo
typo

[DerGreif2]

5 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

Nobody logs in into Warframe with the mindset of "Boy oh boy I can't wait to play some PvP". 

Because it's a loot PvE game. There are some great PvP games out there. The devs should not try fix PvP and should fix other things instead like Vauban or Amber. Or how about the enemy AI and spawn problems.

[(PSN)ForcedSin_erity]

4 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

- Instant death? Solution = Already have one. We have many ways of increasing our survivability via focus schools and arcanes. (Or, if focus and arcanes wouldnt be allowed in conclave, just make the amps deal less dmg to operators)

For sure arcanes cant be allowed...i dont think they will even considering balancing them same for focus school (kinda unbalanced in pve).

4 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

- Walking/ running? I thing this would be the number one reason why it WOULD work, since warframe combat is chaotic due to TO MUCH MOVEMENT

 

 

Dash is too fast and if you're not dashing running is too slow. 

 

a lot of players find the movement slow in conclave (at least a first) and never touch it because of that i doubt theyll like operators movement.

[Stormdragon]

7 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

Lets just start off by agreeing that the current pvp is NOT fun.

Opinions, man. I personally find it way more fun than PvE and know of others in a similar situation, so i start off disagreeing with you.

7 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

Nobody logs in into Warframe with the mindset of "Boy oh boy I can't wait to play some PvP".

I do.

7 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

Part of the reason is, at least for me, is that it is to bloody chaotic. Not to mention the nightmare of balance, since we have so many damn weapons in the game.

As pointed by Kontrollo above, PvP used to be really wel balanced despite the huge amount of weapons available for us; it's a mixture how are these weapons balanced (usually just a multiplier on damage and mag size and the removal of crit and status chance in order to keep weapons working mechanically the same as their PvE counterparts), PvE rebalances as old as PoE, and DE's neglect to never look back at those changes and fix them for PvP what makes some weapons feel unbalanced, but even then they usually aren't a big deal. 

7 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

Make the conclave OPERATOR only!

Now the first thing that might come to mind would be the balance issue with void mode. But this wouldn't be the case as you can think of void mode like Limbos plane. When both operators are in the void mode they can still see each other and void blast each other out of it.

Operator PvP ! Simple, easy to balance, FUN!

In the first place, this creates an issue of locking PvP behind a big PvE grind where DE might not be sure of where to place. Should it be after TSD to avoid spoiling the lore to players who somehow still don't know about operators? Should it be after TWW where the operator finally starts walking on his own? Or should it be after Saya's Vigil to let everyone jump in with at least the Mote Amp?

And only after sorting up something like that is that DE can start focusing on balancing the evergrowing amount of possible amps or stuff such as void mode; fun enough, focus and arcanes shouldn't be added to the mix in order to avoid turning it into a "grind to win" environment, but hat creates the "why can't i use the things i unlocked in pve for pvp" issue we've already seen sometimes as one of the reasons for players to not play conclave.

And finally we have the issue that operator only modes achieve nothing but remove the warframes from warframe.

5 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

There are a million other PVP flavored games crowding the market to go play if that's what you want to go.

In that million of other PvP games crowding the market, there is none offering a similar gameplay to warframe, customization systems in terms cosmetics and gunplay along being optimized enough to run on potato machines AND being free to play.

5 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

I'd rather they spend time on PVE things and quests.

I see where you're coming from, and as much as i can enjoy PvE as well, i don't think that spending a whole year in developing an open world that offers at most a month worth of content (thanks to daily caps and rng walls) or months to develop a single quest that lasts less than an hour before having players go back to the waiting game is a good thing when they could spend much less resources on content with a much higher replayability value.

[StiviRibar]

53 minutes ago, Stormdragon said:

Opinions, man. I personally find it way more fun than PvE and know of others in a similar situation, so i start off disagreeing with you.

I do.

Of course I expected to step on a few toes with those statements. And of course I realize there are people who enjoy Warframes PvP.

But you cannot deny that the MAJORITY of the player base doesn't and considers it a failure. If they didn't, all the top youtubers would be making guides and videos about warframe PvP.

Also, for all the statements above, about warframe being a PvE game and that if we want PvP we can go play other games. OBVIOUSLY DE wants PvP to be a part of this game so why would we go play other games when we love Warframe.

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Parkour makes players harder to hit. In principle, that's fine* if it's equivalent to taking cover in a cover-based shooter. What you wouldn't do, from a design standpoint, is make taking cover charge up an offensive ult ability. Yet that's, effectively, what we have.

_{*Personally I would set speeds of manoeuvres and general movement much closer to each other. Putting "why" in simple terms of PvP (though it'd help PvE too): continuing an attack is often disadvantageous to the attacker, who has to pursue a target with parkour. Why? Bullet jumping at someone presents the head hitbox foremost and, since the retreater can fire backwards, they actually have an offensive boost while retreating. It's energy orbs all over again.}

yeah, i'd be quite ok with the situation being different. no Energy at all would be... acceptable from my point of view (since most - not all but most - of the Abilities are setup to be like free Damage anyways). granted i'd just prefer no free Damage Abilities, whether that's disabling them or making them work differently.
i certainly enjoy using Molt, as it most definitely is not free Damage, but it's still useful. (i think someone got Killed by it once or twice by attempting to mate with it and then it exploded, lol)

Player Mobility is already clamped pretty heavily, and Parkour being faster than not Parkour makes sense, it's Warframe. i wouldn't want it any other way.
the negatives of some Parkour is something that we can and presumably do compensate for, though? technically any of the Animation based Movement is somewhat predictable, but we make our movement less predictable to cover that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, StiviRibar said:

But you cannot deny that the MAJORITY of the player base doesn't and considers it a failure. If they didn't, all the top youtubers would be making guides and videos about warframe PvP.

that's never going to change. Warframe has primarily attracted Players by making a winning Simulator, a game that always tells them that they are the most awesome thing. 
Conclave or any form of PvP, isn't that. it requires that Players be skilled at the game. that's not what the majority of the Playerbase wants. they want a game that plays for them, that wins before they even start the Mission. that's what they're used to, and anything that doesn't fit that model, isn't received well. infact anything that doesn't fit that model is universally blamed for being 'bad' without any further explanation. it's bad because they're bad at it the first time they try it.

there's PvE content that gets received poorly for not meeting that model as well.
it's ok for Players to only be looking for that in a game (though that sounds like a pretty boring ideal game, to me), in the context of the PvP Gamemodes for example though, we just...... would like if the Players that will never be willing to really try to play it, wouldn't have such a toxic attitude.
ironically, those Players that will never play it, are much more toxic than how Conclave is, on average.

so anyways, if you were to make spacekid PvP - it would still have negative reception outside of the Conclave community. they'll never even try it, they'll say it's the worst thing in the game without even looking.

Edited February 19, 2019 by taiiat

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

yeah, i'd be quite ok with the situation being different. no Energy at all would be... acceptable from my point of view (since most - not all but most - of the Abilities are setup to be like free Damage anyways). granted i'd just prefer no free Damage Abilities, whether that's disabling them or making them work differently.
i certainly enjoy using Molt, as it most definitely is not free Damage, but it's still useful. (i think someone got Killed by it once or twice by attempting to mate with it and then it exploded, lol)

Player Mobility is already clamped pretty heavily, and Parkour being faster than not Parkour makes sense, it's Warframe. i wouldn't want it any other way.
the negatives of some Parkour is something that we can and presumably do compensate for, though? technically any of the Animation based Movement is somewhat predictable, but we make our movement less predictable to cover that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

IMO having natural energy regen be the only way to get energy would be okay - optimal, even, with the mod that gives killed players energy on respawn, since it becomes a sort of "noob tube" for those not as skilled yet still lowers the prevalence of abilities and the strategy surrounding "run and grab energy orbs". Plus all the mods that affect energy regen...

As far as player mobility goes, the idea was to boost regular movement up close to parkour movement, not take parkour movement downward. It's more about the monopoly around parkour movements than "parkour is too fast".

[Hobie-wan]

6 hours ago, Stormdragon said:

In that million of other PvP games crowding the market, there is none offering a similar gameplay to warframe, customization systems in terms cosmetics and gunplay along being optimized enough to run on potato machines AND being free to play.

By trying to squeeze WF into some PVP molds, you're going to going to end up throwing away some of what makes WF different though. You're going to end up with modes that are CTF, deathmatch, king of the hill, hero shooter, last man standing  (BR isn't actually a new idea, just the number of players), or "put the sports ball in the hole". There are already too many of the first 3 genres out there, hero shooter and last man standing are already in the middle or a little past their peak, and sports games and Rocket League have the latter pretty well covered.

Sure it's possible they could come up with some brilliant new mode, but there's a reason multiplayer competitive games tend to have the same or similar modes. When you're building off a game that you use movement, attack, defend, and get the thing to the thing as your basis with a group of people that is engaging for the players, those are the primary combinations that have been figured out for decades, or centuries if you think about games and sports in general. Yes there are other ways to be competitive, but I don't think anyone wants PVP cooking, chess, or novel writing in WF.

As far as being able to play on a potato, that will be changing a bit any day now when WF drops XP and DX9 support so the game can make some technology progress and lose some legacy bloat.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

IMO having natural energy regen be the only way to get energy would be okay - optimal, even, with the mod that gives killed players energy on respawn, since it becomes a sort of "noob tube" for those not as skilled yet still lowers the prevalence of abilities and the strategy surrounding "run and grab energy orbs". Plus all the mods that affect energy regen...

As far as player mobility goes, the idea was to boost regular movement up close to parkour movement, not take parkour movement downward. It's more about the monopoly around parkour movements than "parkour is too fast".

hmm. perhaps. i'd certainly be willing to try such a thing.
you could even still sort of keep it as it is, only during the uh, Energy Surge bits. normally no Energy Orbs, but Energy Orbs start Spawning ""randomly"" during that period. maybe.

as in, making walking more appealing for short distances? idunno if there's really anywhere to reach for that goal.

30 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

As far as being able to play on a potato, that will be changing a bit any day now when WF drops XP and DX9 support so the game can make some technology progress and lose some legacy bloat.

and Optimization that can't currently be done because of only working on newer Platforms!
of which i'm sure everyone will appreciate.

[Stormdragon]

2 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

By trying to squeeze WF into some PVP molds, you're going to going to end up throwing away some of what makes WF different though.

DE can add any mode they want to warframe PvP without removing the identity its core mechanics have given to it. Proof of it is how we have CtF (Capture the Cephalon), deathmatch (team and free for all), a sport (Lunaro), and at some point we even had a moba like approach (dark sectors, "temporarily" in armistice since July 2015), instagib (opticor variant), snowball fight (snowball showdown), ninja pvp (quicksteel, aka hikou + nikana) and "cupid" mode (paris instagib aka hearts & arrows, the last 3 being temporal events).

The biggest issue, isn't warframe's core mechanics not being fit for a PvP environment, but how such environment demands as much knowledge of the aforementioned mechanics and systems as possible along mechanical skill to be successful, but this is all tied to a game where progression relies mainly on being able to reach bigger numbers to win.

You can refer to the second part of this post by taiiat to see what i'm talking about (glad to see similar thoughts when it comes to challenge in warframe).

Edited February 20, 2019 by Stormdragon

[Hobie-wan]

Right, but hardly anyone plays those non temporary modes. They've tried adding them and time and again it's ended up not being very popular with players as so many people are here for the PVE and collecting experience. There's also the jack of all trades, master of none issue. Even archwing, which I'm fine with, isn't popular with at least a large number of vocal players.

I'm not saying the game should stagnate and new things shouldn't be tried, heck collecting floofs is popular with a lot of people. Just that PVP in many forms hasn't caught on after many attempts.

[Tyreaus]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

hmm. perhaps. i'd certainly be willing to try such a thing.
you could even still sort of keep it as it is, only during the uh, Energy Surge bits. normally no Energy Orbs, but Energy Orbs start Spawning ""randomly"" during that period. maybe.

I don't see why not. It'd make the Energy Surge stage more prominent, at least. Though whether that's a good thing or not would have to be tested...

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

as in, making walking more appealing for short distances? idunno if there's really anywhere to reach for that goal.

It's mostly around aiming. A lot of aiming for a lot of shooters isn't mouse movement but character positioning: you remove a lot of the evasion of a target by walking with the target. But because Warframes walk and run so slowly yet evade so quickly, it shifts the aiming task to the mouse a lot (and, specifically, minimizes the amount you can compensate with your own movement). Too much, as far as I'm concerned.

_{Plus, at least in PvE, sprinting without Volt is pretty much worthless even with a ton of sprint mods. Dodging gives DR, bullet jumping adds verticality, wall-running maintains verticality, sprinting...exists and makes you into Tokyo Drift. It really should have a better niche closer in line to everything else. As far as I see, it wouldn't hurt PvP either.}

Edited February 20, 2019 by Tyreaus

[taiiat]

24 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

But because Warframes walk and run so slowly yet evade so quickly, it shifts the aiming task to the mouse a lot (and, specifically, minimizes the amount you can compensate with your own movement). Too much, as far as I'm concerned.

_{Plus, at least in PvE, sprinting without Volt is pretty much worthless even with a ton of sprint mods. Dodging gives DR, bullet jumping adds verticality, wall-running maintains verticality, sprinting...exists and makes you into Tokyo Drift. It really should have a better niche closer in line to everything else. As far as I see, it wouldn't hurt PvP either.}

while this is true, i don't think being able to walk 3x faster would really change that since we're jumping between walls and flying. which ofcourse, the opponent can do the same thing to follow said Player.
on the upside ofcourse, we can slide in any direction while also firing, which does help provide speedy adjustments to movement while still attacking.

[Tyreaus]

20 minutes ago, taiiat said:

while this is true, i don't think being able to walk 3x faster would really change that since we're jumping between walls and flying. which ofcourse, the opponent can do the same thing to follow said Player.
on the upside ofcourse, we can slide in any direction while also firing, which does help provide speedy adjustments to movement while still attacking.

The point isn't to remove the disparity entirely but lessen it, at least in particular dimensions. There's a difference between having to move the mouse up and down to compensate for an enemy's jumping, and having to swing it in a circle, loop it around your wrist, and stuff it up your nose to track your target.

As far as following goes, I've mentioned how that tends to favour the retreater (or at best leaves it neutral) because of how bullet jumping positions the head hitbox before much of the body hitbox.

[-ONI-Oxama]

PVP would be more fun if we can add more peoples inside the game.. Something like Counter strike... everybody start with zero modding weapon n frame.

To make it link with PVE farming material, players will only able to equip mods and weapons that they already have within they account. By using DOTA concept, maybe put some "arsenal station" within respawning area for peoples to buy MODs n Weapons that they have in order to make it more powerful. Still limited to what mods and weapons they have inside the own inventory. At the same time will drive people to play PVE too in order to get more variety of mod and weapon. Only need to introduce new type or resources that need to farm within that PVP game so player can farm it and enhanced their frame and weapon to the level that they wanted.

Example, killing player will rewards "in game endo", player who able to kill more player able to leveling their mod based on how much endo they get.. more high level mod they have = more powerful frame or weapon...

Just a cent of idea..

Edited February 25, 2019 by -ONI-Oxama

[nlas-slayerkane]

have to admit sounds like a good start of something that could wokr

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I think you have a massive PVE base surrounded by numerous PVP only titles that do it much better, and that Warframe needs to think about something like what's found in Destiny where teams compete against each other by taking down AI bosses in separate arenas....Bungie hit on something PVE Warframe players could do in conclave while being competitive in a team sport...KIll so many Ai and you drop a Eidolon on the other team's head..that sort of thing...

As for normal PVP...Guys you've been at it for years here,...Why play Warframe as a deathmatch styled PVP game when you have  Apex Legends to Titanfall 2 available...( I can't recommend Black Ops or Battlefield anymore...they have become insulting to PVP players.) I really feel in order to save your version of PVP they need to include PVP that pulls in PVE players and you'll have to hope it brings those on the fence players who'll get the mods after slogging through a team action PVE horde mode and feel they are ready for the real deal..Until then..I think many in here are spinning their wheels hopelessly...

[SevenLetterKWord]

9 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Why play Warframe as a deathmatch styled PVP game when you have  Apex Legends to Titanfall 2 available

Why play chess when you have checkers?

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤯💀

The world may never know.