Reward Quality vs Quantity: Why Nightwave is so Detrimental to New Players

[katsukilove]

I don't understand why they have to remove Alerts to introducte Nightwave, imho they compliment each other fairly well.

I always do low level alerts with low rank warframes/weapons just for some challenge and fun, and still be rewarded with extra credits and resources, now this is gone (low level star charts give pretty bad reward).

[Andele3025]

The rewards seem to be mathematically balanced for consistent players. Dark sectors were almost always better than alerts for new players, Tellurium is best farmed on uranus instead of waiting for alerts, etc.

HOWEVER there is a issue in due to the structure of nightwave there is no instant gratification nor sense of efficiency of indirectly farming multiple things at once when doing it, making the game feel more empty in terms of quick little progress jumps (which is what people should be doing between steps towards their long term goals).

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

19 minutes ago, katsukilove said:

I don't understand why they have to remove Alerts to introducte Nightwave, imho they compliment each other fairly well.

I always do low level alerts with low rank warframes/weapons just for some challenge and fun, and still be rewarded with extra credits and resources, now this is gone (low level star charts give pretty bad reward).

I agree, alerts need to comeback.

[TheSkunkyMonk]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

The rewards seem to be mathematically balanced for consistent players. Dark sectors were almost always better than alerts for new players, Tellurium is best farmed on uranus instead of waiting for alerts, etc.

HOWEVER there is a issue in due to the structure of nightwave there is no instant gratification nor sense of efficiency of indirectly farming multiple things at once when doing it, making the game feel more empty in terms of quick little progress jumps (which is what people should be doing between steps towards their long term goals).

Some on the other thread id a little math, here it is

I went back and did some more math. I made a list of all the alerts from a single day (Feb 21st) then added up mostly all the rewards.
Check it out here if yer curious:https://pastebin.com/raw/BrAVctzP

After 1 day, if you did every single alert, you could get the following. (I was going to do 1 week for alerts as well but there was just too much stuff)
1,079,700 Credits
17 Blueprints
6 Mods
2,200 Endo
4 Nitain
60 Void Traces
MISC Resources

After 1 week in the new system, if you do all the weekly challenges, including the dailies, you'll get 45k, and if yer starting at rank 0 as a new player would be, you will get to rank 4 and you can get the following.
1 Sigil, 2 Glyphs, 50 Wolf Creds, and 2 Weapon Slots.
With those 50 credits, you can buy:
2 Mods OR
1 Helmet and 5 Nitain OR
2 Vauban Parts OR
1 Weapon Blueprint OR
15 Nitain OR
1 Weapon Skin
That's it, Nothing else...

Take this how you will.

 

Thank you GentlePuppet.

[AtsiaZ]

The easiest thing to do would be to just let players gain Wolf Creds more consistently. I see no need to bring back the RNG crapshoot system that didn't work for most people.

[Vox_Preliator]

I feel that they needed to have the first Wolf Cred pack be the first reward.  Maybe the second, though both would be even better.  That way, even a brand new player who can't do any of the trickier challenges would be able to reach the important things (Auras, Nitain) within a week or two.

[TheSkunkyMonk]

47 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I feel that they needed to have the first Wolf Cred pack be the first reward.  Maybe the second, though both would be even better.  That way, even a brand new player who can't do any of the trickier challenges would be able to reach the important things (Auras, Nitain) within a week or two.

If they had made it to be fun it would of been 25creds, or even the 50 on each rank but I really do think this update was more a disguise and they wanted to slow down peoples progression, sad really since less than 1% of players have got to the Profit Taker missions.

[Vox_Preliator]

1 hour ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

If they had made it to be fun it would of been 25creds, or even the 50 on each rank but I really do think this update was more a disguise and they wanted to slow down peoples progression, sad really since less than 1% of players have got to the Profit Taker missions.

And previously a player could just straight up not get what they want because the alert appeared during work, sleep, school, anything.

It's only slowed down progression in two cases:  A) People who can play at all hours and thus never missed an alert, and B) people who only needed one more Nitain for something.  And in the latter case, it's only because the first Wolf Cred pack is 30k standing in, and it would only be slowing down if we're assuming that they would have been able to get the Nitain earlier, which was hardly guaranteed.

It's not healthy to cater to group A (For the players or the game for a multitude of reasons), and group B's issues go away soon because their issue lies in Cred's slow start, but the first pack is enough for up to 15 Nitain, a crazy amount compared to how much you could reasonably accumulate in that time in the previous system.

If they really wanted to slow down progression, they did a terrible job.

[TheSkunkyMonk]

22 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

And previously a player could just straight up not get what they want because the alert appeared during work, sleep, school, anything.

It's only slowed down progression in two cases:  A) People who can play at all hours and thus never missed an alert, and B) people who only needed one more Nitain for something.  And in the latter case, it's only because the first Wolf Cred pack is 30k standing in, and it would only be slowing down if we're assuming that they would have been able to get the Nitain earlier, which was hardly guaranteed.

It's not healthy to cater to group A (For the players or the game for a multitude of reasons), and group B's issues go away soon because their issue lies in Cred's slow start, but the first pack is enough for up to 15 Nitain, a crazy amount compared to how much you could reasonably accumulate in that time in the previous system.

If they really wanted to slow down progression, they did a terrible job.

Just look at the math I posted above this is not faster in anyway shape or form, specially since the credits get spread out further apart as you progress and it also limits the amount of items you can actually get, Once again though Im not saying remove nightwave im saying keep both, you might not like the alerts but plenty did and their is no reason for them to get removed.

[(PSN)TheThirdLie]

I'm a year into this game and even I can completely understand where you are coming from. The system was a wonderful idea, but it is limiting to new players. You can't earn wolf creds fast enough to warrant replacing alerts.

I have a second account on the Switch and I am not motivated to do all of the challenges for ranking again. That is my casual account.

The new Nightwave almost shuns new and/or casual players. If you don't play every week, every day, you are going to miss your opportunity to get resources you NEED. In a week you could previously get 28 Nitain if you did all alerts, half that if you casually paid attentiom... now you can get, what, 10? IF you can increase your standing, do all challenges, and don't also want/need mods. =/

Edited March 2, 2019 by (PS4)eimajtl

[Andele3025]

5 hours ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

Some on the other thread id a little math, here it is

I went back and did some more math. I made a list of all the alerts from a single day (Feb 21st) then added up mostly all the rewards.
Check it out here if yer curious:https://pastebin.com/raw/BrAVctzP

After 1 day, if you did every single alert, you could get the following. (I was going to do 1 week for alerts as well but there was just too much stuff)
1,079,700 Credits
17 Blueprints
6 Mods
2,200 Endo
4 Nitain
60 Void Traces
MISC Resources

After 1 week in the new system, if you do all the weekly challenges, including the dailies, you'll get 45k, and if yer starting at rank 0 as a new player would be, you will get to rank 4 and you can get the following.
1 Sigil, 2 Glyphs, 50 Wolf Creds, and 2 Weapon Slots.
With those 50 credits, you can buy:
2 Mods OR
1 Helmet and 5 Nitain OR
2 Vauban Parts OR
1 Weapon Blueprint OR
15 Nitain OR
1 Weapon Skin
That's it, Nothing else...

Take this how you will.

 

Thank you GentlePuppet.

Thanks for proving that Nightwave is massively better than alerts in terms of efficient farms and reward per time investment (especially since almost all old alerts were massive noob traps as each resource but alertium, auras and helmets has a drastically superior farm).

Issue is still that it feels worse in terms of lacking instant gratification.

[TheSkunkyMonk]

34 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Thanks for proving that Nightwave is massively better than alerts in terms of efficient farms and reward per time investment (especially since almost all old alerts were massive noob traps as each resource but alertium, auras and helmets has a drastically superior farm).

Issue is still that it feels worse in terms of lacking instant gratification.

Was that sarcasm that i was just not getting? lol its a lot worse you could get all that in 24hours, you can get the nightwave rewards in a week.

[Xylia]

This is what they SHOULD have done with Nightwave:

1). Get rid of Wolf Creds and the seasonal mechanic.

2). Have you buy what you want with straight up standing points aka Cephalon Simaris.

3). ???

4). Profit.

[Xylia]

7 hours ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

Some on the other thread id a little math, here it is

I went back and did some more math. I made a list of all the alerts from a single day (Feb 21st) then added up mostly all the rewards.
Check it out here if yer curious:https://pastebin.com/raw/BrAVctzP

After 1 day, if you did every single alert, you could get the following. (I was going to do 1 week for alerts as well but there was just too much stuff)
1,079,700 Credits
17 Blueprints
6 Mods
2,200 Endo
4 Nitain
60 Void Traces
MISC Resources

After 1 week in the new system, if you do all the weekly challenges, including the dailies, you'll get 45k, and if yer starting at rank 0 as a new player would be, you will get to rank 4 and you can get the following.
1 Sigil, 2 Glyphs, 50 Wolf Creds, and 2 Weapon Slots.
With those 50 credits, you can buy:
2 Mods OR
1 Helmet and 5 Nitain OR
2 Vauban Parts OR
1 Weapon Blueprint OR
15 Nitain OR
1 Weapon Skin
That's it, Nothing else...

Take this how you will.

 

Thank you GentlePuppet.

Here's the problem:

1). Not everybody can do Hydralysts.

2). Not everybody has access to or wants to do Sanctuary.

3). Not everybody wants to log on and do daily objectives (if they even spawned daily which they don't, despite the fact it says 'daily'; I've not seen a new daily objective since yesterday morning) every single day.

4). Not everybody wants to grind grind grind to do 100 Eximus kills (apparently YOU have to land the killing blow to get credit; I did a Defense Mission and there were many Eximus units in said defense... I didn't get credit for a single kill).

Edited March 2, 2019 by Xylia

[Andele3025]

26 minutes ago, TheSkunkyMonk said:

Was that sarcasm that i was just not getting? lol its a lot worse you could get all that in 24hours, you can get the nightwave rewards in a week.

No, because you having to be free and awake at any point during a day is unrealistic and every single resource except for helments, auras and alertium has a DRASTICALLY SUPERIOR farm that also gets you something else (endo farming being the worst in the "also farming something else" department, but still better than the alerts that were noob traps).

Examples for each:

• 1 Mil credits is between 17~25 minutes of index depending on if you have a premade team or not where you get rare mods for simaris transmutes OR 36~40 min of dark sectors where you also get cells, relics or cryotic
• 8~16 minutes of void missions gets you 20~30 mods if you need em for some goal and "nightmare" alerts were just nightmare missions which are free to be done at any time
• 8~9k endo is either a premade arena team of 2 nekros 1 hydroid and any other frame for some 30 min or 40 min worth of arbis, arena giving you a chance for rare mods while arbis will provide AW rivens and even currently can be used for selling power donation which for some reason goes for 20~40p
• Void traces are gained by relic runs, in fact just spamming a capture fissure for in the time its up is very likely to give more traces than a month worth of trace alerts and you are getting prime parts while doing em.
   

Again, the big issue is removal of alerts removed a instant gratification element of gameplay (and possibly for the few new players that found "that one frame" they will enjoy playing for a long time, a helmet might not come up for a decent period of time with nightwave).
 

[Xylia]

2 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

but still better than the alerts that were noob traps).

Uh, the Alerts had their place.

Examples for each:

• 1 Mil credits is between 17~25 minutes of index depending on if you have a premade team or not where you get rare mods for simaris transmutes OR 36~40 min of dark sectors where you also get cells, relics or cryotic

I liked being able to log on and just pop a quick alert for 5-10 minutes and log off, when something interesting came up. I'd check the twitter now and then, and go out and just... do stuff for guaranteed non-RNG reward (something that is dang rare in Warframe anymore).

And what about the people who don't have people at their beck and call to make premade teams?

8~16 minutes of void missions gets you 20~30 mods if you need em for some goal and "nightmare" alerts were just nightmare missions which are free to be done at any time

If you had the equipment and the people to do said Nightmare Missions. Not everybody does, or even wants that kind of challenge.

8~9k endo is either a premade arena team of 2 nekros 1 hydroid and any other frame for some 30 min or 40 min worth of arbis, arena giving you a chance for rare mods while arbis will provide AW rivens and even currently can be used for selling power donation which for some reason goes for 20~40p

Premade teams, not knowing anybody, etc.

he big issue is removal of alerts removed a instant gratification element of gameplay

(and possibly for the few new players that found "that one frame" they will enjoy playing for a long time, a helmet might not come up for a decent period of time with nightwave).

It was nice to see an alert pop for a list of items you were interested, log on, 5-10min later, have the thing, log off.

Several times I'd see a bit of Endo, or Neural Sensors, or some helmet I didn't have pop on alerts, I'd log on, get it, log off.

Now with Nightwave, I have to do a bunch of other crap to beat some time-limit, and there's yet more exclusive RIMITED TIME ONRY content (like we needed MORE of that....) that you BETTER get now or it's gone foreva!

[Xylia]

SIGH. I hate the quoting system in this forum.

[Andele3025]

44 minutes ago, Xylia said:

Uh, the Alerts had their place. 

I liked being able to log on and just pop a quick alert for 5-10 minutes and log off, when something interesting came up. I'd check the twitter now and then, and go out and just... do stuff for guaranteed non-RNG reward (something that is dang rare in Warframe anymore).

And exactly why i said, its a lack of instant gratification mechanic, not the rewards themselves.

44 minutes ago, Xylia said:

And what about the people who don't have people at their beck and call to make premade teams?

Exactly why i said "17~25 minutes depending on if premade or not", a not minmax optimized team that work together are likely to get it down to 4 minutes per run, you with a rhino+any index mook shredder weapon doing 15 caps or mesa/gara doing 5 caps is likely to pug it in 6~8 min per run.
So i was wrong and its "21~29 mintues" since i forgot its 20k not 25k per win of profits, but point stands.

44 minutes ago, Xylia said:

Premade teams, not knowing anybody, etc.

Arbitrations dont require knowing anyone, its """survival"""/time gated for endo not skill gated.

 

[(PSN)Aneres_Omega]

Having alerts(tweak them only to drop resources and normal credits) along side NW is perfect, alerts have nothing you want or need then NW has you covered.

Both systems are not perfect but working together would even things out a bit.

[Xylia]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Aneres_Omega said:

Having alerts(tweak them only to drop resources and normal credits) along side NW is perfect, alerts have nothing you want or need then NW has you covered.

Both systems are not perfect but working together would even things out a bit.

And/or they could have made the more interesting alerts last longer than 1 hour.

So people had trouble being on when a good alert was up. OK then. Blueprints, Nitain, and Rare Resources can last 3 hours instead of 1 hour.

[katsukilove]

Apparently it is lesser reward if one has really paid attention to what Xylia has posted. It is not instant gratification issue. (Please go back and reread the DAY vs WEEK, AND vs OR carefully in her/his post)

E.g. You can't get neural sensor (and other non-nitain resources like Tellurium) from Nightwave
Some people may advise "go farm kuva fortress if you want neural sensors", but they forgot to mention that etra effort outside Nightwave, I could have done Alert + Kuva Fortress to farm MORE neural sensors within a day. Ironically, Alert was created to reduce the RNG factor farming the rare resource in tilesets.

The Nightwave doesn't really provide MORE compared to Alerts, the orokin potatoes rewards especially are noob traps (if you spend wolf creds on orokins you will miss out more important and exclusive resource Nitain, it's illusion of choice for newbies), these fanciful rewards make Nightwave looks good on paper but it isn't more useful for newbies (orokin potatoes are easy to acquire, I usually farmed mods, sold for platinums and easily bought those without having to rely on Alerts)

Nightwave is really more for Veterans than Newbies, stop saying it is to help newbies to get more resources, as it isn't. (Ironically alternate options recommended to newbies to farm resources are all non-newbies friendly).

TL;DR
Give us both systems, and everyone is happy. (Neither of them is superior to another, they synergize well with each other)

Edited March 3, 2019 by katsukilove

[TheSkunkyMonk]

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, because you having to be free and awake at any point during a day is unrealistic and every single resource except for helments, auras and alertium has a DRASTICALLY SUPERIOR farm that also gets you something else (endo farming being the worst in the "also farming something else" department, but still better than the alerts that were noob traps).

Examples for each:

• 1 Mil credits is between 17~25 minutes of index depending on if you have a premade team or not where you get rare mods for simaris transmutes OR 36~40 min of dark sectors where you also get cells, relics or cryotic
• 8~16 minutes of void missions gets you 20~30 mods if you need em for some goal and "nightmare" alerts were just nightmare missions which are free to be done at any time
• 8~9k endo is either a premade arena team of 2 nekros 1 hydroid and any other frame for some 30 min or 40 min worth of arbis, arena giving you a chance for rare mods while arbis will provide AW rivens and even currently can be used for selling power donation which for some reason goes for 20~40p
• Void traces are gained by relic runs, in fact just spamming a capture fissure for in the time its up is very likely to give more traces than a month worth of trace alerts and you are getting prime parts while doing em.
   

Again, the big issue is removal of alerts removed a instant gratification element of gameplay (and possibly for the few new players that found "that one frame" they will enjoy playing for a long time, a helmet might not come up for a decent period of time with nightwave).
 

I never kept tracked of them and just took what popped up as I was playing, missed out on plenty potatos but thats just life, what I did get however was plenty nitain and all the other bits and bobs which I am now out of, yes Ive already spent that 15 and now have to wait till this new system refreshes instead of just playing the game for a bit and waiting for an alert while I do whatever it is I Fancy, this new system is a massive chore compared to the Alerts and halts progression, I dont like my progression being halted and it removes those good feelings and chemicals the brain releases on getting a the rewards...

There really is no reason for the alerts to be removed, not one other than DE doesn't get a new fountain as fast.

Alot of players can't do the Index.

I wanted mods because I didnt have them it was nice to get them quickly from alerts.

I hate the arena and once again not good for new players

Void trace, yeah I never once took one of those alerts as its easier to get them when opening relics you can definately keep that one as it wasn't much use to anyone.

But my main problem is no longer being able to grab a few nitain each day and it only taking about 20minutes in total out of my play time now instead it took me 3 days to get the first 3 ranks of nightwave and as I progress through the tiers that will become even longer.

Not to mention I now have to wait longer for the rewards rotate, it was nice coming out of a mission and having a look what was on the board.

Just bring back the alerts and keep nightwave and let us play the ones we want.

I'd also add that Nightwave season progression should be on a player basis instead of a set time moving onto the next season once you've reached maxed rank allowing everyone to get those rewards and work at a pace they enjoy, instead of once again missing out, oh the irony considering that was the complaint about the Alerts only this time you could be waiting months for it to rotate back to the season one rewards, yeah great fun..

Now excuse while I go and cry over my build queue I can't start because I can't get the resources I need anymore.

 

[Scharfohr]

On 2019-03-02 at 1:46 PM, TheSkunkyMonk said:

Some on the other thread id a little math, here it is

I went back and did some more math. I made a list of all the alerts from a single day (Feb 21st) then added up mostly all the rewards.
Check it out here if yer curious:https://pastebin.com/raw/BrAVctzP

After 1 day, if you did every single alert, you could get the following. (I was going to do 1 week for alerts as well but there was just too much stuff)
1,079,700 Credits
17 Blueprints
6 Mods
2,200 Endo
4 Nitain
60 Void Traces
MISC Resources

After 1 week in the new system, if you do all the weekly challenges, including the dailies, you'll get 45k, and if yer starting at rank 0 as a new player would be, you will get to rank 4 and you can get the following.
1 Sigil, 2 Glyphs, 50 Wolf Creds, and 2 Weapon Slots.
With those 50 credits, you can buy:
2 Mods OR
1 Helmet and 5 Nitain OR
2 Vauban Parts OR
1 Weapon Blueprint OR
15 Nitain OR
1 Weapon Skin
That's it, Nothing else...

Take this how you will.

 

Thank you GentlePuppet.

4

so, in short, the more of a life you have instead of playing 24/7 the better is new system? (because yeah let's calculate with people playing 24/7, seriously if you really pick up every single alert you have other problems in my opinion).

Though i definitely agree with other people that nightwave still needs number finetuning (effort/reward for some challenges, Wolf Credit placement (the jump from 6 to 12)etc.) 

[TheSkunkyMonk]

16 minutes ago, Scharfohr said:

so, in short, the more of a life you have instead of playing 24/7 the better is new system? (because yeah let's calculate with people playing 24/7, seriously if you really pick up every single alert you have other problems in my opinion).

Though i definitely agree with other people that nightwave still needs number finetuning (effort/reward for some challenges, Wolf Credit placement (the jump from 6 to 12)etc.) 

So if we like putting the hours in we hould be punished? Explain why we can't have both.

[(XBOX)Dic3man]

Quote

So if we like putting the hours in we hould be punished?

Ofc not but its not realistic comparing 24/7 alerts (NO ONE can do them all and thats a fact so the comparison is misleading at best) to nightwave.
I do agree with you, if we put in the time we should be rewarded although most "vets" on these forums seems to disagree with this and keeps whining about ..I have done all this and that buuhuu dont want to do it again please just give me my umbral forma....