Hildryn changes I made over discord

[MrTitan123]

I should start off by saying my expectations for Hildryn were a bit of a roller coaster over her development. I don’t think many of us are happy with her. She’s meant to be a shield tank, which in and of itself is a risky and most likely a bad idea. Having shields also function as your energy creates a resource crisis in the heat of battle that leaves you internally and externally screaming for help.

Oh yeah, toxic and slash procs are insta death, so that’s fun too.

So, in one of my discord servers, I posted a small blurb of changes Hildryn could use. I refined one of the points, so I’m going to just do it here as well so other people can tell me what they think of it.

 

1. Shield Pillage is no longer line of sight. Whoever thought that was a good idea was sorely mistaken.

2. Shield Pillage restores a bit of health as well as shields. Gotta stay healthy somehow.

3. Hildryn is unaffected by slash and toxin procs if shields are above 50%. Now you have even more reason to keep your shields above that.

4. Haven scales in damage similar to Hydroid’s puddle over time. Shield pillage would be used as normal to not only refuel, but help build up offensive power for Haven. Now you have a reason to keep it up.

5. Energy orbs picked up while in Aegis Storm grant a stacking 10% damage reduction, up to 90%. Damage reduction is on a refreshable timer that starts ticking down once Aegis storm ends. 

6. Balefire doesn’t restrict your friggin movement.

 

I added a few points that I thought of while writing this, so let me know what you all think of these proposals. I want Hildryn to be good, I really do. But at this point...

I’d rather play Revenant. 

[Chappie]

1.  No.  This would allow people to camp in a corner.

2.  No.  If you let your shields drop..that is on you.  No risk...no reward.

3.  No.   You want to take away the only thing that can kill her.  Again...no risk...no reward

4.  No.   Haven was not meant to cause damage...Haven was meant to get you fuel and strip some armor/shield as a side benefit.

5.  No.  We already have a mod for that.  

6. No.  Balefire is a DPS monster.  Removing any movement restriction would make it more OP than it already is.   Hell, I would argue that balefire is the best #1 skill in the game.  

Everything you have stated is nothing more than "I want more power".   It is like you want to mash up the best skills of other frames to create a new OP frame.   I'm surprised you didn't ask for a loot increasing ability while you were at it.    Hildryn is already good.  Hildryn is REALLY good IMO.   Did it ever cross your mind that how you are choosing to play/mod her is the issue you have?

...and go play reverent while you are at it.  

Edited March 13, 2019 by Chappie1975

[MrTitan123]

48 minutes ago, Chappie1975 said:

1.  No.  This would allow people to camp in a corner.

2.  No.  If you let your shields drop..that is on you.

3.  No.   You want to take away the only thing that can kill her.

4.  No.   Haven was not meant to cause damage...Haven was meant to get you fuel.

5.  No.  We already have a mod for that.  

6. No.  Balefire is a DPS monster.  Removing any movement restriction would make it OP.  

Everything you have stated is nothing more than "I want more power".   It is like you want to mash up the best skills of other frames to create a new OP frame.   I'm surprised you didn't ask for a loot increasing ability while you were at it.    Hildryn is already good.  Hildryn is REALLY good IMO.   Did it ever cross your mind that how you are choosing to play/mod her is the problem?  

Jeebus, calm down. Alright, I did see issues, yes. And yes, I know how I’m modding her. I’m not looking for mod synergy and power, I’m looking for even a smidget of good synergy between her abilities. 

I suggested point 1 because the line of sight mechanic right now is incredibly finnicky and unreliable, and sometimes doesn’t even work at all. Very rarely, but it still happens.

I suggested point 2 because she is practically useless against infested in almost every situation. Having a way to keep her alive in the absence of shields or armor is pretty important.

I suggested point 3 to further reinforce point 2, so she is not completely useless against infested.

I suggested point 4 because dealing damage to nearby enemies was one of Haven’s main points. At it is right now, a haven is only good for temporarily buffing allies, and that’s it. I tried to create another playstyle for Hildryn. Apparently didn’t work.

As for point 5, no we don’t. Health conversion and Energy conversion are two different mods. I’m talking about an ability property.

I suggested point 6 because Balefire just feels clunky to use. Nothing much else there.

 

As much as I appreciated your feedback, you didn’t provide much constructive feedback. It’s fine if you like the frame, it’s just I think she could be a bit better.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

Not with Hildryn yet, but here's my take on the suggested changes:

 

3 hours ago, MrTitan123 said:

1. Shield Pillage is no longer line of sight. Whoever thought that was a good idea was sorely mistaken.

 

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:

I suggested point 1 because the line of sight mechanic right now is incredibly finnicky and unreliable, and sometimes doesn’t even work at all. Very rarely, but it still happens.

1 - Removing LoS from her Shield Pillage (the only risk you are taking for basically getting your energy AND main survivability back)  just because it's finnicky and unreluable is not a good reason. The LoS is to prevent you from going max range and stealing/removing Shield/Armor from the entire map. Abilities such as Octavia's 1, Gara's passive and Mirage's 4 are LoS to prevent abuse.

 

 

3 hours ago, MrTitan123 said:

2. Shield Pillage restores a bit of health as well as shields. Gotta stay healthy somehow.

 

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:

I suggested point 2 because she is practically useless against infested in almost every situation. Having a way to keep her alive in the absence of shields or armor is pretty important.

2 - I do not agree she's useless against infested, but instead not as effective against infested. IMO, a Warframe don't need to be the best on every type of mission, but effective in every type of mission. She still has her 1 and 4 combo to CC and dispatch infested with ease. Making Shield Pillage have Life Steal in conjunction with the remove of status effects, Shield Steal and you 1º suggestion would make Shield Pillage an instant full healing. Trinity has that (basically) yes, but it's effected by Affinity range, not by Power Range and I don't think it removes Status effect.  Equinox has that, yes, it's effected by power range, yes, but it needs a build up to be a full heal  and I don't think it removes Status effect.

 

 

3 hours ago, MrTitan123 said:

3. Hildryn is unaffected by slash and toxin procs if shields are above 50%. Now you have even more reason to keep your shields above that.

 

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:

I suggested point 3 to further reinforce point 2, so she is not completely useless against infested.

3 - Again, removing one of her only weakness. Her Shield Pillage already removes such Status effects of herself on cast, it doesn't need any enemy in the area. It's just a matter of keeping an eye on your health.

 

 

3 hours ago, MrTitan123 said:

4. Haven scales in damage similar to Hydroid’s puddle over time. Shield pillage would be used as normal to not only refuel, but help build up offensive power for Haven. Now you have a reason to keep it up.

 

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:

I suggested point 4 because dealing damage to nearby enemies was one of Haven’s main points. At it is right now, a haven is only good for temporarily buffing allies, and that’s it. I tried to create another playstyle for Hildryn. Apparently didn’t work.

4 - I don't think Heaven damage was suppose to be a main point. IMO, I see the damage as a bonus side effect, like Equinox's(night) 4 giving shields as you kill enemies inside the radius. It's much more effective on allies as a way to increase their survivability than when it's on the enemies, so I don't see why giving scaling damage would make choose to run around, waiting for the damage to bump up instead of shooting enemies with your guns (or even her 1), unless you mean as the damage scale while the ability is activated and not scale for one enemy at time, making it basically a infinite scaling damage link ability, where in conjunction with her Shield Pillage, with or without you suggestions, would be really strong at endurance runs, And since Hydroid's 2 and Gara's 2+4 combo can basically do that, I don't see the problem and I would dig that.

 

 

3 hours ago, MrTitan123 said:

5. Energy orbs picked up while in Aegis Storm grant a stacking 10% damage reduction, up to 90%. Damage reduction is on a refreshable timer that starts ticking down once Aegis storm ends. 

 

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:

As for point 5, no we don’t. Health conversion and Energy conversion are two different mods. I’m talking about an ability property.

 

5 - I think Chappie was referring to the damage reduction and not pick up conversion. Since Hildryn Exilus is a D, I'm assuming mods such as Aviator and Agility Drift work while Aegis Storm is active (again I'm ASSUMING it works, idk if it works or not). Adding a DR to her Aegis Storm on top of the CC and the extra BaleFire you get, is kinda overkill. Her draw back for such bonuses is to a  extend, her movement, her survivability and Shield regain (that can be patched with Arcanes and mods). Keep in mind Energy Orbs are also really helpful for teammates (and Arcane Energize exists).

 

 

3 hours ago, MrTitan123 said:

6. Balefire doesn’t restrict your friggin movement.

 

1 hour ago, MrTitan123 said:

I suggested point 6 because Balefire just feels clunky to use. Nothing much else there.

6 - It's just a matter of getting used to it. If you don't feel good using her BaleFire, that's not Hildryn's problem.

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by (NSW)Kokojo

[MrTitan123]

10 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Not with Hildryn yet, but here's my take on the suggested changes:

Okay, now THAT is a number of fair points. Thank you. I’m no expert on frame balancing, so all these ideas are a bit rough. Glad you pointed those things out.

[Hypodermique]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

1 - Removing LoS from her Shield Pillage (the only risk you are taking for basically getting your energy AND main survivability back)  just because it's finnicky and unreluable is not a good reason. The LoS is to prevent you from going max range and stealing/removing Shield/Armor from the entire map. Abilities such as Octavia's 1, Gara's passive and Mirage's 4 are LoS to prevent abuse.

What abuse? Some frames can do it. None of them rely on shield tho, while Hildryn does. She needs it more than anyone else.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

1 minute ago, Hypodermique said:

What abuse? Some frames can do it. None of them rely on shield tho, while Hildryn does. She needs it more than anyone else.

 

32 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

The LoS is to prevent you from going max range and stealing/removing Shield/Armor from the entire map.

 

As for the other Frames, thay have other weakness to patch that up.
Equinox needs a build up, Trinity needs Affinity Range, Garuda doesn't really kill with her 4, and her 1 need's range.

Edited March 13, 2019 by (NSW)Kokojo

[Hypodermique]

Giving up on the LoS would also (at least in my head) imply a higher shield drain from her other abilities. Also consider that it's not only her energy pool but also her tanking strat. On top of that, the LoS is rigged and not always works on all enemies, and most of the time your teammates just end up killing them before you get to do anything.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Hypodermique

[(NSW)Kokojo]

1 minute ago, Hypodermique said:

So basically you have no argument other than that 😅

 

My bad, I hit the Submit accidentally 

[Hypodermique]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

My bad, I hit the Submit accidentally 

edited my reply in this case 😁
sorry if it sounded sassy

[(NSW)Kokojo]

12 minutes ago, Hypodermique said:

Giving up on the LoS would also (at least in my head) imply a higher shield drain from her other abilities. Also consider that it's not only her energy pool but also her tanking strat. On top of that, the LoS is rigged and not always works on all enemies, and most of the time your teammates just end up killing them before you get to do anything.

LoS not working as intended is not a problem that only effects Hildryn, but all of the LoS abilities (Octavia's 1, Mirage's 4, Gara's Passive, Excalibur 2, etc), so it's a problem with the game, and not with the Warframe itself.
I agree that removing LoS would result of re-balancing of all her abilities cost and Shield Pillage Range and Shield Steal/ Armor strip too, but, IMO, that would make Shield Pillage as an ability that you either spam or is not worth casting.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Chappie1975 said:

1.  No.  This would allow people to camp in a corner.

   Hell, I would argue that balefire is the best #1 skill in the game.

When it’s a skill that you have to rely on to STAY ALIVE the. Yes it should go trough walls to prevent things like poles getting you killed because you missed a few enemies.

 

Also, Garudas Dread Mirror, Saryns spores, And Nidus Virulence are definitely all better than Balefire.

Edited March 13, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Teridax68]

My thoughts on the OP's points, as someone who hasn't yet played Hildryn (so take it with a grain of salt):

1. This sounds like a good idea. Unlike Polarize, Shield Pillage doesn't damage enemy health, so even in the hypothetical situation where Hildryn hides in a corner and spams 2, she will at best act as a localized Corrosive Projection/Shield Disruption/Rapid Resilience aura (which will itself run out of usefulness pretty quickly as enemies get their defenses stripped).
2. This could be a good idea. I think one of the biggest problems with Hildryn is that shields kind of suck as a mechanic: having lots of shields matters little in an environment when some pretty common status effects bypass them, and having her overshields block some of that damage is itself not great due to how quickly enemies can shoot those down. On top of all this, non-regenerating health as a baseline means Hildryn is particularly vulnerable to attrition, even if she cleanses herself of status effects properly. There are probably some systemic changes that should address this (health I think should regenerate by default), but in the meantime it would help her survive much better against Grineer and Infested if she could heal properly.
3. Technically, overshields on her already block toxin damage, but it could probably benefit her more if overshields also made her entirely status immune.
4. Haven looks like a fairly muddled ability with a prohibitively expensive drain, so having its damage increase to decent levels could probably help it out significantly (though it would likely not solve all of its problems).
5. I'm not entirely sure on this. Damage reduction makes sense on a tank for sure, but considering how Hildryn's meant to rely on shields, it may be better to focus on raw shield power instead. I think one of the buffs she may need is a significant increase to her shield and shield regen, with regen mods increasing the restoration from Energy orbs, which should make the restore feel better while in Aegis Storm mode.
6. Agreed 100%. Having weapons restrict the player's movement I don't think is a good idea to begin with, and if there's ever an issue with the Balefire Launcher dealing too much damage, then it should receive a nerf to its damage on top of a removal to its movement restrictions.

Overall, from what I've seen, beyond some problems inherent to Hildryn (her kit has very little self-synergy, outside of the forced synergy between her 3 and 4, and most of her abilities feel like cool effects that were kind of lumped together irrespective of coherence), I think the main issue is just that shields are one of the casualties of the game's more modern design: her shield gating looks promising (even with that one cheesy build running around), but at the end of the day, shields don't really have a place in the current game. They don't really add new gameplay (Hildryn's own gameplay doesn't really play that much with shields, and would probably work a lot better if she had nothing but a solid health pool, and drained that instead), and instead present quite a few problems due to how quickly they break, how poorly they fare against toxin and slash procs (which are common when facing Infested or Grineer, respectively), and how they have no interaction with armor. In theory, Hildryn could turn this into a piece of gameplay by tanking more actively via status cleanses, but in practice that kind of damage happens too quickly at a higher level for it to work. To me, this suggests that it may work to remove shields entirely, and compensate accordingly on frames that have them now.