Revert clunky Harrow's Condem change

[Tehcaro]

Prior to update 24.6.0 Harrow could cast condemn in the air, It worked fine and was particular useful to do while aim gliding towards enemies.

Harrow is my most used Warframe, having started playing the game when the plains of eidolon was released, I got Harrow around 3 months later.

In 24.6.0 there is now this clunky delay based on how far you are off the ground forcing you to fly to the ground and then cast condemn.

Harrow's survivability was already low requiring constant movement and condemn usage to stay alive at high levels in the game.

Harrow was actually fun to use again with the recent augments, please rethink this very unwelcome change to Harrow, it is effectively a survivability nerf.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Tehcaro
typos/grammar

[Freyaloi]

I totally agree. I also main Harrow and after having done a few missions with the changes, I am finding his condemn ability very clunky to use. If casting it from the air, he falls to the ground and pauses before casting it, making him a sitting duck, which at high levels, is deadly.

I have also noticed enemies not getting chained if cast from the air either following these changes. Maybe one or two right in front of him would but nothing else, forcing me to cast the skill again for it to actually do what it is supposed to. Loosing the ability to cast this skill while bullet jumping at enemies has drastically reduced his manoeuvrability and thus survivability.

His condemn is by far one of, if not the most important ability in his arsenal, so for it to have become so clunky is a huge problem. 

And honestly, if I wanted to go to the ground faster, i'd just do a slam attack with the melee weapon, not waste energy on an ability cast that will effectively get me killed, which is what happens now at high level. 

edit:

Another note, no longer being able to bullet jump cast mean that I can no longer help out a swarmed squad mate, as attempting to chain those enemies from the air like I used to, would now get me killed. The forced ground play has also slowed down his playstyle, making it increasingly difficult to get kills in public matches, and forcing room nuking weapons and reducing diversity. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Freyaloi
More information

[Numerikuu]

Also agree, and reposting this from the Dev Workshop thread:

The update is great for Trinity and some of the others. Harrow's Condemn on the other hand? It's awful. Completely breaks the flow of combat for him and also leaves him very vulnerable. His change needs to be reverted for now until a smoother animation can be put in place. Either that or make it like Trinity where it's just castable in the air/no ground slam 😕

Edit: A response from a friend who is a Harrow main who doesn't frequent the forums:

Quote

Being able to bullet jump through enemies and chain them as you go by added to his survivability. But it doesn't even chain them the same way now.

Before you could be to their sides and it’d still hit. Now? You have to land directly in front of them to chain them, though that’s if you’re still alive after the few seconds animation delay from the landing/ground slam.

We may not have been able to cast it in the air before, but you could do it during a bullet jump close to the ground. Doing so added to his maneuverability and survivability, and now that’s gone. His forward momentum is gone. Condemn's cone/range also feels a lot smaller after this change.

If anything, this change to Harrow forces him to be on the ground even more now for his Condemn to work right, and that ability is very important in his arsenal...

[Raught]

I used to air glide over enemies while Condeming them, and land behind them to take them out. But now condemn instantly grounds you.

It also seems to be bugging out the max range. If you aim glide, and use Condemn, the chains only extend a few feet.

[Same]

I use Harrow for melee - all of his abilities synergized really well for it. However, not being able to chain things from the air has definitely made things more... complicated.
Condemn was a real life saver when it was able to be instantly casted from the air.

Also, it feels like the duration on Penance got a very slight nerf. I'm not exactly sure if it has, but it definitely doesn't feel like it lasts as long and like I'm refreshing it a little more often. Has anyone else felt this?

[Freyaloi]

I've noticed a change to the range of condemn and the duration of his other abilities. However I do run two different builds on him for different playstyles so I'm not sure whether it's actually a thing, or my perception being off from swapping builds regularly. 

[Azvalk]

Hi ^^
Also agree with.. all of that =)
One other thing: Harrow's thurible cause harrow to drop the datamass in his hand.. this was not the case before..
I think..
Also, I take this opportunity to suggest a small addition to Harrow.
Could a "charged" version of Condemn be considered ? ( like Nezha's Blazing Chakram )
When Harrow is surrounded of ennemies, and we can't use our 4 for some reason, we use condemn multiple times, in several directions, right ?
How about a charged version, to cast Condemn in aoe around us ?
Maybe shorter range, maybe highter energy cost if you want, but I think it could be cool and usefull ^^
(Sorry if it's not the place to put a suggestion for Harrow, I just don't want to start a post for a so small idea ^^' )

[Freyaloi]

I'm not sure how well the whole charging thing would work, since he relies on being able to move so much.

However giving him the ability to cast from the air, while fixing the directionality of where his chains are going would remedy that. Using your example of being surrounded, with an air cast, he could bullet jump up and then chain all those enemies beneath him. Giving him the ability to cast during bullet jumps and aim glides would actually increase his survivability as well as help team mates. (Especially in pugs where there's usually bugger all to chain up anyway because of the rampant nukes)

 

With the current forced land casting, I'm finding myself having to run around a lot more looking for enemies to even chain up, especially when in pugs. Even if I bullet jump and so on to look for them, by the time I do the slam chain BS, with the animation delay, a squad mate has already killed them. Aka, boosting harrows overshield to then help the squad with healing, is frustratingly difficult, forcing Harrow even more so into a solo frame. What good is it to him to be able to heal  and give energy to others, if he's going to be alone anyway? 

I'm finding it far less enjoyable to play him now, even in my pre-set squad of friends, because of the change to his condemn. As he is my main warframe and the one I generally turn to the most for almost all of the content or when i'm feeling terrible and just want something comfortably familiar, the slam thing and how clunky it's become to use that ability frustrates me to no end. I still use him since I am the most comfortable with him, but I can see these changes putting off players that are new to him. That manoeuvrability in combination to condemn was what made him so fun to use for me. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Freyaloi
typo corrections

[AugmentedJustice]

Agreed 100%. no reason for such a silly change. it was fine as is.

[Apocryphos13]

I have the impression that it's a bit unintentional but still, the previous version was better, no doubts

[AugmentedJustice]

Is thurible off as well? did casting it always make you drop to the ground this quickly? I didn't play him much, but I always knew for damn sure condemn was castable whilst in the air and happened in a smooth manner, i'm not sure about thurible? the duration loss to penance would have been in the patch notes though right?? or do DE get sneaky sometimes and not mention things?

[Kylskapskast]

It feels so awkward having to drop down to the ground for condemn now. Much preferred the older version and I hope they rethink this decision, works well for other frames but revert it for harrow!

[Freyaloi]

I'm not sure about thurible tbh, never thought to cast it in the air as I usually do so behind cover or with covenant active. 

[AugmentedJustice]

Downloading update now and according to patch notes, harrow's condemn might be fixed??

[Tehcaro]

Below 8 meters it's like it used to be, but if your high enough you still glide down. The glide seems a bit faster.

[Freyaloi]

I've done a few survival runs with him, 2 20min runs (Lotus trying to kill me by not giving life support), then a full on 50min, all solo. I'm pleased to say they have fixed the slam issue we were having and I am in fact finding him to be more fluid than before.

It still does the slam if you cast from high up, and the landing is still a bit clunky with the delay but at least now he's able to cast while bullet jumping like before, but even when aim gliding. (Which I am pretty certain, was not a thing before. I could be wrong though)

Over all his manoeuvrability is back to what it was before and it feels improved. 

 

Either way, i'm delighted with the change, Thank you DE ❤️ 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Freyaloi
clarification