Health bars-color indicators

[ShaKaL95]

Would be good to see some different colors for Alloy Armor and Proto Shields on those special units and bosses,so people should know which type of damage is stronger/weaker on them,especially that we meet Corpus Techs,Bombards and units that have them equipped. 

Alloy Armor/Infested Sinew-classed as special armor-Saturated Orange

Proto-Shields-Darker Blue

If possible,and if makes a difference,other types of armor/health could have different colors,and with a cristal clear tutorial on health types,new players could better understand how to properly mod for a mission.

[WhiteMarker]

There is almost no point in seeing that stuff during a mission. You can't change your damage then.
You can only change your builds before you start a mission. And when you do that, you can easily check your codex for this kind of information.

[ShaKaL95]

9 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

There is almost no point in seeing that stuff during a mission. You can't change your damage then.
You can only change your builds before you start a mission. And when you do that, you can easily check your codex for this kind of information.

Yet some indication would be nice

 

[Chewarette]

46 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

There is almost no point in seeing that stuff during a mission. You can't change your damage then.
You can only change your builds before you start a mission. And when you do that, you can easily check your codex for this kind of information.

Yes but you can switch from your Primary to your Secondary though

[80think08]

Learning by seeing, instead of learning by rembering a list of hundred different enemies seems to me like a welcoming idea

[ShaKaL95]

2 hours ago, 80think08 said:

Learning by seeing, instead of learning by rembering a list of hundred different enemies seems to me like a welcoming idea

That is what I tried to point out,rather than looking on wiki or ingame,in the codex, players could mod their guns depending on the majority color.

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, 80think08 said:

Learning by seeing, instead of learning by rembering a list of hundred different enemies seems to me like a welcoming idea

i.e. player feedback. Completely agreed there. I'm of the opinion that players learn best when they're offered clear, real-time feedback on whether what they're doing is working or not. Are my shots being heavily resisted? Are they exploiting a weakness? Is this enemy armoured or do I just suck? Telling me what I'm doing something wrong empowers me to find ways to fix it, by trial and error if necessary. Game design which requires players to memorise stats and infer mechanics is both not a lot of fun and unnecessarily difficult to learn.

I see no real downside to using different visual effects for different health types. We already do this for Hyldrin's Shield Gating mechanic, where our own shield bars will "glow" with a little animation to indicate we're eligible for invulnerability. So why not give Alloy Armour Greneer a similar yellow/black striped animation to differentiate them from Ferrite Armour versions, the Hyldrin Shield Gate effect to Corpus Proto Shields, etc. While we're at it, maybe give the hit confirmation indicator a separate visual and audio indication when your damage is being significantly resisted (say by over 50% of all damage) and a different one when damage is being boosted by exploiting enemy damage type weaknesses. Maybe slash hits will clang against Allow Armour but Puncture hits would make a metal tearing sound.

The damage confirmation indicator ought to carry a lot more information than it does. Years ago, there was a mod for Payday 2, which caused the indicator to change colour depending on whether it scored a bodyshot, a headshot or a critical hit and change shape when it scored a killing shot. Just those changes alone helped improve both my aim and my target acquisition time by giving me extra important information.

While we're at it, can we simplify health types and resistances a little bit? Why is Ferrite armour weak to Corrosive but not radiation and Alloy Armour to radiation but not Corrosive? Why do shields resist Corrosive but Proto Shields don't? And how the hell am I supposed to remember which Infested enemy has what health type weak to what damage types? Even if I wanted to memorise enemy weaknesses and resistances, there's no real overriding logic behind them. It feels random, meaning I have literally remember all of them. Why not give Ferrite and Alloy armour the same strengths and weaknesses, but to different extents? Just as a random thought. Rules are there to be exploited by enterprising players, but having to constantly tab out to the Wiki or walk over to the Codex gets tedious very quickly.

In short, I feel players ought to have more feedback about what their guns are doing and simplifying damage types at least a little bit won't go amiss.

[ShaKaL95]

Yes,and it is not actually a significant change,it needs to show a different color for a different type of armor/shield/health

[SordidDreams]

4 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

There is almost no point in seeing that stuff during a mission. You can't change your damage then.

Yeah, but you can set each of your weapons up with different elemental combos ahead of time and then use them based on such an indicator. As opposed to the current system, where you have to just remember which enemies have what health type, and with hundreds of the damn things in the game, nobody can, so the whole elaborate system kinda falls flat and becomes a bit pointless.

Edited May 6, 2019 by SordidDreams

[WhiteMarker]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

Yeah, but you can set each of your weapons up with different elemental combos ahead of time and then use them based on such an indicator. As opposed to the current system, where you have to just remember which enemies have what health type.

Even if they new enemies had differently colored health bars, you would still have to remember which enemy you can encounter in the next mission.
It's like this right now, and it won't change with the suggested idea.

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Unsurprisingly, with hundreds of the damn things in the game, nobody does, so the whole elaborate system kinda falls flat and becomes a bit pointless.

I mean, why would you mod for that many different health types?
Just use proper builds. It doesn't matter if you fight against ferrite armor, or against alloy armor. Fact is, you are fighting against armor. So bring 4x CP, or bring a weapons with Corrosive damage.
You are fighting shields? Doesn't matter if they are Shields, or Proto Shields. Just bring Magnetic damage, or if you are smart you bring Toxin damage.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with color-codes health bars. But this won't change how the game currently works, and how you set up your weapons and builds.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

Even if they new enemies had differently colored health bars, you would still have to remember which enemy you can encounter in the next mission.
It's like this right now, and it won't change with the suggested idea. 

I mean, why would you mod for that many different health types?
Just use proper builds. It doesn't matter if you fight against ferrite armor, or against alloy armor. Fact is, you are fighting against armor. So bring 4x CP, or bring a weapons with Corrosive damage.
You are fighting shields? Doesn't matter if they are Shields, or Proto Shields. Just bring Magnetic damage, or if you are smart you bring Toxin damage.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with color-codes health bars. But this won't change how the game currently works, and how you set up your weapons and builds.

Alright, I tried to approach this with the goal of salvaging the current system, but it sounds to me like you'd be more in favor of simplifying it down and getting rid of all these superfluous health and damage types. Which I'd actually love to see too, so thumbs up.

[ShaKaL95]

Is that bad to make just a clarity change afterall?

[WhiteMarker]

8 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Alright, I tried to approach this with the goal of salvaging the current system, but it sounds to me like you'd be more in favor of simplifying it down and getting rid of all these superfluous health and damage types. Which I'd actually love to see too, so thumbs up.

These damage types can stay. But if we are real, it all boils down to what I just wrote.

The thing is, there are basically two situations:
1. The defensive measures of an enemy are too weak and don't matter. In this case the damage type doesn't matter, the enemy dies in one shot.
2. The defensive measures are strong and give you a "hard time". In this case you want to mod for status. And then you need only one damage type, more or less. If you go against armored units, you bring either corrosive in order to strip that armor. Or you can bring viral+slash in order to bypass that armor.
It's less about exactly meeting the health type with the proper damage type, which would deal the most damage.

1 minute ago, ShaKaL95 said:

Is that bad to make just a clarity change afterall?

I don't think it would be useful. It would be confusing.
And it doesn't really matter in the long run. Maybe lowies mod their weapons to meet the health type of an enemy. I don't do that anymore. I go for the most effective status proc, or useful damage type (eg. why bother with shields, if toxin bypasses shields?)

Edited May 6, 2019 by WhiteMarker

[SordidDreams]

Just now, WhiteMarker said:

These damage types can stay. But if we are real, it all boils down to what I just wrote.

The thing is, there are basically two situations:
1. The defensive measures of an enemy are too weak and don't matter. In this case the damage type doesn't matter, the enemy dies in one shot.
2. The defensive measures are strong and give you a "hard time". In this case you want to mod for status. And then you need only one damage type, more or less. If you go against armored units, you bring either corrosive in order to strip that armor. Or you can bring viral+slash in order to bypass that armor.
It's less about exactly meeting the health type with the proper damage type, which would deal the most damage.

In both those cases the precise health and damage types are irrelevant, as you said. Why even have multiple damage types, then? To give a fake veneer of complexity?

[ShaKaL95]

12 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Even if they new enemies had differently colored health bars, you would still have to remember which enemy you can encounter in the next mission.
It's like this right now, and it won't change with the suggested idea.

I mean, why would you mod for that many different health types?
Just use proper builds. It doesn't matter if you fight against ferrite armor, or against alloy armor. Fact is, you are fighting against armor. So bring 4x CP, or bring a weapons with Corrosive damage.
You are fighting shields? Doesn't matter if they are Shields, or Proto Shields. Just bring Magnetic damage, or if you are smart you bring Toxin damage.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with color-codes health bars. But this won't change how the game currently works, and how you set up your weapons and builds.

But there are 2 different types of shields,which have different strengths and weaknesses,not to mention magnetic is the least chosen proc,regarding Armor, corrosive proc nullifies it eventually,but for beginners might help knowing corrosive works better against fodder with ferrite armor but radiation is better against special units.

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, ShaKaL95 said:

But there are 2 different types of shields,which have different strengths and weaknesses

Both have the same weakness. It's called Toxin. I wrote that multiple times. And even new players can learn that right away. Makes things easier.

2 minutes ago, ShaKaL95 said:

but for beginners might help knowing corrosive works better against fodder with ferrite armor but radiation is better against special units.

"Special units" are not threat in low levels. But as soon as they get higher levels, Radiation is a bad choice. Sure, it deals a little bit more damage, but the damage mitigation is just too strong. People should learn right away that Corrosive gets rid of the armor and the damage mitigation.

Why would low levels first "learn" something about the game just so that they can then forget everything again and learn the proper strategies. What's the point of that?

[ShaKaL95]

7 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Both have the same weakness. It's called Toxin. I wrote that multiple times. And even new players can learn that right away. Makes things easier.

"Special units" are not threat in low levels. But as soon as they get higher levels, Radiation is a bad choice. Sure, it deals a little bit more damage, but the damage mitigation is just too strong. People should learn right away that Corrosive gets rid of the armor and the damage mitigation.

Why would low levels first "learn" something about the game just so that they can then forget everything again and learn the proper strategies. What's the point of that?

Its just about clarity,Devs created different types,and the only way they find out about it is to look all the time in the codex or scrolling on wiki. Is that hard?

[WhiteMarker]

14 minutes ago, ShaKaL95 said:

Its just about clarity,Devs created different types,and the only way they find out about it is to look all the time in the codex or scrolling on wiki. Is that hard?

I want to be honest with you:
You talk about clarity, and you say that Magnetic is the worst damage type.
But Magnetiy is the most effective damage type, if you have to fight against shields. (Shields AND Proto Shields)

So what do you want? Do you want new people to use Magnetic Damage? And as soon as they modded their weapons for Magnetic, they will get told by everyone else in the world, that they should go for Toxin.
This way new people will be confused, because the color of the health bar clearly indicates that you should use Magnetic.

Do you get what I mean?
Yes, different colors would make the different health types more clear. But I explained multiple times already that these different health types don't matter.
In theory DE could just remove most of the damage types. The only case where the health type matters is the Wolf. Because he is immune to status procs. Against everything else you can use status procs and make health types pointless.

[SordidDreams]

34 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

I explained multiple times already that these different health types don't matter.

And I explained multiple times already that then they shouldn't exist.

[ShaKaL95]

25 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

I want to be honest with you:
You talk about clarity, and you say that Magnetic is the worst damage type.
But Magnetiy is the most effective damage type, if you have to fight against shields. (Shields AND Proto Shields)

So what do you want? Do you want new people to use Magnetic Damage? And as soon as they modded their weapons for Magnetic, they will get told by everyone else in the world, that they should go for Toxin.
This way new people will be confused, because the color of the health bar clearly indicates that you should use Magnetic.

Do you get what I mean?
Yes, different colors would make the different health types more clear. But I explained multiple times already that these different health types don't matter.
In theory DE could just remove most of the damage types. The only case where the health type matters is the Wolf. Because he is immune to status procs. Against everything else you can use status procs and make health types pointless.

Except not all people play only status,people use crit focused builds on weapons,and there,it does matter. 

In case of crit builds, it is useful to mod for the elemental that deals the most damage to a type of unit. One thing is to deal a hit dealing 50.000 per se,but its corrosive against alloy armor and that is neutral, and different if you had radiation and deal more damage because  it deals 75% more to it. Yes armor stripping and status is king,and people try to bypass the system,yet not all weapons proc so easily,and there comes the different combos to kill faster.

If it was colored different,it would scream "Hey! I got alloy armor, you'll kill me harder with corrosive damage than radiation!"

Also as you said,some bosses like eidolons and Wolf by example have status imunity,and you need the corresponding type of damage(same goes for the orbs),now,would not clarity be welcome there?

[WhiteMarker]

13 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

And I explained multiple times already that then they shouldn't exist.

And I gave you that.
But this is a totally different subject.

4 minutes ago, ShaKaL95 said:

Except not all people play only status,people use crit focused builds on weapons,and there,it does matter. 

Crit focused builds have the issue of falling short as soon as scaling hits. So yeah, as long as scaling didn't take action, the damage type almost doesn't matter.
And again: You prepare your weapons before you start a mission. You know what mission you will run. So you will know which enemies you will face off against.
Because of that you will know which weapon is build for which enemy.
The colored health bar won't help you, if your builds aren't properly set up.
Or do you want to tell me, that you randomly join an Eidolon Hunt, and have to look at the Eidolons health type before knowing which weapon with which element to use? This never happens. You know before joining which enemies you will face. You know before which weapons you will take, and which element to chose.
And knowing health types of enemies is actually pretty damn easy.

 

[ShaKaL95]

21 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

And I gave you that.
But this is a totally different subject.

Crit focused builds have the issue of falling short as soon as scaling hits. So yeah, as long as scaling didn't take action, the damage type almost doesn't matter.
And again: You prepare your weapons before you start a mission. You know what mission you will run. So you will know which enemies you will face off against.
Because of that you will know which weapon is build for which enemy.
The colored health bar won't help you, if your builds aren't properly set up.
Or do you want to tell me, that you randomly join an Eidolon Hunt, and have to look at the Eidolons health type before knowing which weapon with which element to use? This never happens. You know before joining which enemies you will face. You know before which weapons you will take, and which element to chose.
And knowing health types of enemies is actually pretty damn easy.

 

For me,yes, but for newly joined players? When you meet it for the first time without knowing anything,he can still make a general idea what to use

[WhiteMarker]

2 minutes ago, ShaKaL95 said:

For me,yes, but for newly joined players? When you meet it for the first time without knowing anything,he can still make a general idea what to use

Again: This doesn't help you during the mission.
After the mission, most players will already have forgotten, and then they will look up things in the codex or in the wiki.
Even new players will prepare before going into a mission. So they want to have all the information outside of missions. Having the information during a mission often doesn't help.

And btw. what just came to mind: How will all of this work for color blind people? Different shades or grey. I'm sure that'll be quite a bit of fun.

[ShaKaL95]

29 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Again: This doesn't help you during the mission.
After the mission, most players will already have forgotten, and then they will look up things in the codex or in the wiki.
Even new players will prepare before going into a mission. So they want to have all the information outside of missions. Having the information during a mission often doesn't help.

And btw. what just came to mind: How will all of this work for color blind people? Different shades or grey. I'm sure that'll be quite a bit of fun.

They do sth for the color blind people? They can still see different colors