Out With Drop Tables! In With Token System.

[Genuinetheo]

The problem with RNG is in the R. Randomness creates a situation where time and effort is irrelevant to success. People can walk off with their items without any real work or never see the item they want to get after several nights of dedication. Such is the natural flaw of randomness.

 

Randomness is flawed, that is what makes it a wonderful system. You cannot have perfection and success. If all you do is succeed, you are not really succeeding at anything--you are just playing the game as it is designed (to let you win every time). With random number generators, we at least have some sense of flaw and imperfection where success can breed because failure is abundant. You have to have the drive to succeed when you fail, otherwise you will fall flat on your face and ask for handouts. Kind of like a lot of the community has been doing for quite some time.

[Diarist]

+1 All the way

 

I support this completely. It's smart. It's efficient. It encourages play, and generally won't leave people with burnout or sour tastes in their mouths. Clear goals being established beats relying on sheer luck any day.

[Morec0]

I like the sound of this. Even if there had to be different tier tokens for different tiers items, it would be a vast improvement over how things are run now.

[Arlayn]

Due to recent events regarding the droprate problems, how the current system is always under constant review, and getting broken whenever new content is introduced, I would like to recommend implementing an overhauled, token based void reward system instead of the current RNG based system. The idea first emerged around the time void keys were introduced, and was later referred by DE_Steve during one of the livestream.

This system would:

- replace luck in the current system with a certain, clear and attainable goals.

- allow players to get what they wanted with a bit of effort(read: not grind, gameplay.)

- Exchange tokens acquired by players over void exploration and runs for items they want from the token shop.

The way players would get tokens could depend on either:

- how much the players explored the void - vaults, side rooms, etc.,

- end level rewards like it was with events scaled by mission level.

The items token cost(acquisition rate) would be predetermined, set, reflect and depend on:

- Their original place in the rng based droptables as to this so we for once stop.

TOKEN SYSTEMS ARE EVIL!!! Then I have to get like 100 tokens which is like what? 5 tokens a week? Then you put limiters on it so we can't get infinite number of tokens per week... Then we have to do worthless missions to grind for worthless tokens... The tokens pile up and then we see our selves collecting 1,500,000 just for an acrid... because it will cost us 1,500 for Gorgon, and 1000 for a boltor, and 500 for a burston, and 100 for a braton... Yeah I can see this going to hell in a hand basket... I HATE TOKEN SYSTEMS WITH A PASSION!!! I HATE THEM!!! I would still rather use Warframe controls to attempt Through the fire, and flames in Guitar Hero by shooting each of the keys to hit the notes at the right time with a team of 3 other tenno, while equipped with Gorgon... or Braton Mk1 with max magazine. THAT would be more doable for obtaining gear then a token system... complete songs using your guns guitar hero style and gain a  weapon... that would be awesome... Token system HELL NO!!!!

[Arlayn]

Randomness is flawed, that is what makes it a wonderful system. You cannot have perfection and success. If all you do is succeed, you are not really succeeding at anything--you are just playing the game as it is designed (to let you win every time). With random number generators, we at least have some sense of flaw and imperfection where success can breed because failure is abundant. You have to have the drive to succeed when you fail, otherwise you will fall flat on your face and ask for handouts. Kind of like a lot of the community has been doing for quite some time.

Don't bother arguing with them they just want instant gratification... If real life were only that easy... Life... its like a box of chocolates... or RNG...

[WordsAreEnough]

Don't bother arguing with them they just want instant gratification... If real life were only that easy... Life... its like a box of chocolates... or RNG...

 

You can try and twist this discussion into being about hand outs all you want.

 

Token system =/= hand outs

 

Several ways have been mentioned that it can be implemented to prevent that. We are just looking for things to be obtainable if we work for them. Not for things to have a random chance to be handed to us in moments or take months upon months to acquire. I'm not sure why you think that suddenly means we want to be able to walk into one void mission and leave with every prime, because it doesn't.

 

The problem is that RNG has no correlation to actual work and effort. There was a paycheck analogy early in the thread that is on point. One guy can work for a day and get his paycheck, one guy can work for a week and get his paycheck and some guy out there can work forever and never see a dime. That's the problem. RNG doesn't reward based on effort or work. It is entirely luck based and, again, creates a scenario where someone can end up never seeing something.

[Arlayn]

You can try and twist this discussion into being about hand outs all you want.

 

Token system =/= hand outs

 

Several ways have been mentioned that it can be implemented to prevent that. We are just looking for things to be obtainable if we work for them. Not for things to have a random chance to be handed to us in moments or take months upon months to acquire. I'm not sure why you think that suddenly means we want to be able to walk into one void mission and leave with every prime, because it doesn't.

 

The problem is that RNG has no correlation to actual work and effort. There was a paycheck analogy early in the thread that is on point. One guy can work for a day and get his paycheck, one guy can work for a week and get his paycheck and some guy out there can work forever and never see a dime. That's the problem. RNG doesn't reward based on effort or work. It is entirely luck based and, again, creates a scenario where someone can end up never seeing something.

yes it can be implemented to prevent that that's when it becomes a pain in the butt and destroys the entire game by imploding it from the inside out by making us collect billions upon trillions of tokens to get anywhere in the game...

[WordsAreEnough]

yes it can be implemented to prevent that that's when it becomes a pain in the butt and destroys the entire game by imploding it from the inside out by making us collect billions upon trillions of tokens to get anywhere in the game...

 

More hyperbole. Plenty of games do token systems just fine. The fact that it can be done right is important. RNG will always have its weaknesses no matter how few items are on the drop table or what their percentage chance is. A token system can be implemented to avoid those that are possible with it.

[Arlayn]

More hyperbole. Plenty of games do token systems just fine. The fact that it can be done right is important. RNG will always have its weaknesses no matter how few items are on the drop table or what their percentage chance is. A token system can be implemented to avoid those that are possible with it.

I love RNG... I live with RNG in real life all the time... I would rather work with RNG in a game... then a token system... that's like giving me food stamps man... what is wrong with this picture?

[WordsAreEnough]

I love RNG... I live with RNG in real life all the time... I would rather work with RNG in a game... then a token system... that's like giving me food stamps man... what is wrong with this picture?

 

So, you're ok with a system that creates an opportunity where no matter how hard someone works it is possible for them to never be rewarded? Because, to be clear. That's what you're saying right now.

Edited September 23, 2013 by WordsAreEnough

[Blatantfool]

So, you're ok with a system that creates an opportunity where no matter how hard someone works it is possible for them to never be rewarded? Because, to be clear. That's what you're saying right now.

 

 There is not just one possible fix for that issue. All I'm really seeing is him expressing his disdain for a Token system.

[WordsAreEnough]

 There is not just one possible fix for that issue. All I'm really seeing is him expressing his disdain for a Token system.

 

If that's true then if there are ideas on how to remedy the situation without one I'd be for discussing them too. The problem is that no one has put forth any options for such a remedy that aren't, in effect, a token system.

[Arlayn]

If that's true then if there are ideas on how to remedy the situation without one I'd be for discussing them too. The problem is that no one has put forth any options for such a remedy that aren't, in effect, a token system.

going to be honest I REALLY do love the RNG system the way it is... and going to be honest I liked it better when Dual ichor cost 2 forma, and 10 mutagen samples.... I really wanted to be one of the few elite that have that weapon... I mean its cool to have founder wall, but lets be honest I would look like an A** if I went around pointing my Lato Prime at you going HAHA I GOT LATO PRIME!!! No I REALLY want a legendary weapon/warframe in this game that requires ALOT of hardwork to obtain... and I want to get that item, and then show everyone how hardcore of a player I am. How hard I worked at collecting resources, beating missions, traveling far in the solar system, collecting keys, defeating God, blowing up the Death Star, ending world hunger... and then gaining this totally awesome legendary weapon with Godly stats as proof of my heroism... and then having a skin pattern for my warframe of Lotus in a bikini that stretches up my body similar to the Lady luck picture on the Highwind in Final Fantasy 7(Or have Lotus in a bikini on my Drop ship... and then I can be perfectly content that we finally have something that takes a lot of work to get, and cannot be purchased at all... and show it off...

[Blatantfool]

If that's true then if there are ideas on how to remedy the situation without one I'd be for discussing them too. The problem is that no one has put forth any options for such a remedy that aren't, in effect, a token system.

 

 Fair enough. Open-mindedness is useful for this sort of topic. 

 

 The way I see it, the actual problem staring us all back in the face is incredibly simple.

 

 We've got a reasonably long grind chain set up in the game now. Unfortunately, we don't happen to have a safety net set up. This is something you just touched on quite nicely above.

 

 "a system that creates an opportunity where no matter how hard someone works it is possible for them to never be rewarded?"    

 

 This is grazing the truth quite closely. Currently, it is far too easy for a player to be asked to run a single piece of content for as few as three or a many as a hundred runs easily. There is absolutely nothing defending a player from being required to do 50+ runs for a simple enough goal like obtaining 'That last piece'.

 

 This is, of course, a nasty problem. Without something to spring a player from a grind trap burn out is just made so much worse - since there is no worse medicine for repetition then being asked to repeat something even more.

 

 So with that on the table, how do we prevent it?

 

 Do we talk about and explore the idea of including a form of Item transmutation with a more specific function then 'Put in 4 things and get something random.'? Surely any player who is stuck in a grind trap has, at the very least, worked up a few duplicates of the parts of what he is grinding for that he already owns, yeah? So it would follow that allowing those duplicates to be transmuted directly into the part RNG is holding back would be a fairly effective was of pulling people out of the grind trap.

 

 

 Do we continue to talk about the value of Trading and how it'd be incredible to be able to use my duplicates to secure the part I need along with help someone secure something they need? I'd gladly part with a part I no longer need, like the often sought after Vauban BP's, for the Rhino Helmet I am personally in need of. Surely there is value in two players springing each other from the grind trap. 

 

 

  These are just observations and rough thoughts I've seen recently on the issue. Those are both, in my opinion, equally effective to the often suggested Token system.

[Bkwrm]

In another thread (maybe this one, they all blur together after awhile), someone brought up just rebalancing all the RNG.  Place the loot in specific locations instead of having all it all lumped all over the place and crossing tiers and missions.  Drastically reduce the amount of things that can be rewarded from a specific mission but spread them out more, there is plenty of content already in the game.  Make use of the nightmare modes that appear on regular planets and specific mission types.

 

I favor tokens just because it will be easier to balance, but there are PLENTY of ways to change the current look system.  Heck, other than Frames, once I hit the grind stage (I'm still unlocking planets atm) this game will probably be uninstalled for me as things currently stand.  Right now I'm having a blast, and I love this game, but I can see the grind coming up.

[fatpig84]

The thing about token is... What is stopping DE from setting ridiculous token rates on some items ?

For example, every void ending mission gives you 5 to 10 tokens.

 

Sounds good eh ?

 

Then you realized that Frost Prime Bp cost 150 tokens.

If you are lucky it is 15 runs, if you pooped out, it is 30 runs for 1 Bp.

 

Then you need to get Helmet, Chassis and systems..... That is 600 tokens in total or 120 runs or 60 if lucky.

Void keys on their own are not guaranteed drops so that leads to more farming from Endless def.

 

That prolongs the game unnecessarily.

 

 

What RNG does it allow some people to get everything in like 4 runs and that is the beauty of it, some people have all the luck and can get it fast. Others don't.

 

What I believe is better is a combination of token and RNG though.

You still get RNG rewards endgame, but you can get tokens to redeem stuff in case your luck is terrible.

Edited September 23, 2013 by fatpig84

[Doomsong]

 Fair enough. Open-mindedness is useful for this sort of topic. 

 

 The way I see it, the actual problem staring us all back in the face is incredibly simple.

 

 We've got a reasonably long grind chain set up in the game now. Unfortunately, we don't happen to have a safety net set up. This is something you just touched on quite nicely above.

 

 "a system that creates an opportunity where no matter how hard someone works it is possible for them to never be rewarded?"    

 

 This is grazing the truth quite closely. Currently, it is far too easy for a player to be asked to run a single piece of content for as few as three or a many as a hundred runs easily. There is absolutely nothing defending a player from being required to do 50+ runs for a simple enough goal like obtaining 'That last piece'.

 

 This is, of course, a nasty problem. Without something to spring a player from a grind trap burn out is just made so much worse - since there is no worse medicine for repetition then being asked to repeat something even more.

 

 So with that on the table, how do we prevent it?

 

 Do we talk about and explore the idea of including a form of Item transmutation with a more specific function then 'Put in 4 things and get something random.'? Surely any player who is stuck in a grind trap has, at the very least, worked up a few duplicates of the parts of what he is grinding for that he already owns, yeah? So it would follow that allowing those duplicates to be transmuted directly into the part RNG is holding back would be a fairly effective was of pulling people out of the grind trap.

 

 

 Do we continue to talk about the value of Trading and how it'd be incredible to be able to use my duplicates to secure the part I need along with help someone secure something they need? I'd gladly part with a part I no longer need, like the often sought after Vauban BP's, for the Rhino Helmet I am personally in need of. Surely there is value in two players springing each other from the grind trap. 

 

 

  These are just observations and rough thoughts I've seen recently on the issue. Those are both, in my opinion, equally effective to the often suggested Token system.

Maybe some kind of "recycling tank" add a point value to items and parts based on how hard they are to obtain.

Recycling whole items grants more points than sum of its parts. For example recycling helmet bp would give less points than recycling a helmet. Recycling a warframe would give more points than recycling its parts and bp. That value would be also modified for item rank and would include points if player put a catalyst/forma/reactor. (not sure who would be stupid enough to recycle thing like that but you never know)

Now how spending points could work.

It would be split in tiers and type with 2 options.

Random, new random, chosen new randoms

Random is cheapest option. It would generate a random bp or part. It may create duplicate.

New random will generate a random bp or part player doesn't have already from that tier.

Chosen random options will generate random BP or part from chosen tab player doesnt have. 

Now an extra cookie. Random and new random will have in its pool some parts/bp that can't be obtained anywhere else. Maybe even an exclusive warframe with its parts split bewen tiers. Those should propably not be obtainable in chosen random since it would make it much less a sign of status.

[Otaiken]

If you love RNG so much then just lobby DE to implement weighted RNG. That's pretty much just RNG with an extra safety net. As you get one specific part over and over the chance for it to drop decreases. DE would then just have to adjust the decrease rate and they could pretty much set roughly the maximum number of runs player needs to do before they get something.

 

The randomness is still there, you can still luck out and get that thing early, but people who have no luck are guaranteed to get to the damn thing at some point.

 

Example: There are 2 common 25% drops and 2 rare 11% drops. After you get 10 pieces of the commons, they becomes rare, after you get 20 pieces of each, they are removed from the drop table. This also means that your drop chance increases slightly as you go, so there's at least some kind of progression there.

Edited September 23, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[Otaiken]

Also, to Arlayn:

 

You claim that Token system would make grind worse and would require more work from players.

 

Then you claim that people who are against RNG and for token system want hand-outs.

 

 

You basically contradict yourself multiple times in this topic. I also think that token system can be done right, though knowing DE I could understand your concern, but the chance of it being misused isn't argument against the token system.. it's argument against developers that use it.

[dEEkAy2k9]

this might sound good but judging from warfarms last changes, de does not want us players to get what we want just by playing it, they want us to get everything based on a crappy chance as this artificially prolongs gameplay, just like crafting times on items artificially slow us down.

 

if i could work for my braton prime or any other prime weapon by doing exactly what i have to do for those tokens, i'd have it faster and maybe get bored and turn away, now i have to farm keys (on luck) and then farm the weapon (on luck). oh wait, i am already turning away from warfarm or farmframe, call it whatever you want.

[Doomsong]

Problem with token system is that it almost always ends with players forced to grind tokens to get some must have gear. Leading to players grinding same easiest token giving content over and over, leaving other content to gather dust. With RNG spread out players  are more spread out allowing to find a co-op group easier. If you look at many new mmo, their loot tables start to look like throw players some scraps and for rest make them grind tokens. I would rather keep RNG and be able to hand out stuff i dont need to get "tokens" based on rarity of things,  than sit stuck at grinding jackal for weeks cos powergaming crowd says its da best boss for farming tokenz. With DR on drops from boss overfaming and a bit carefull tweaking on frame parts pricing you would achieve much better spread of players than just making boss drop currency directly.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Doomsong

[Mabswer]

all in as long as you call them/it something other than tokens. maybe chips ? or Coins?

 

 

-as Token System is a bit, overshadowed by Nexons Vindictus with its little fail of a Token system.

 

-well yea now that i think about it more, it would still have RNG in it unless its Set ammount gained on each mission, then it would be way too grindy. - inreality Solves, nothing!

Edited September 23, 2013 by Mabswer

[Goth667]

If you love RNG so much then just lobby DE to implement weighted RNG. That's pretty much just RNG with an extra safety net. As you get one specific part over and over the chance for it to drop decreases. DE would then just have to adjust the decrease rate and they could pretty much set roughly the maximum number of runs player needs to do before they get something.

 

The randomness is still there, you can still luck out and get that thing early, but people who have no luck are guaranteed to get to the damn thing at some point.

 

Example: There are 2 common 25% drops and 2 rare 11% drops. After you get 10 pieces of the commons, they becomes rare, after you get 20 pieces of each, they are removed from the drop table. This also means that your drop chance increases slightly as you go, so there's at least some kind of progression there.

I would definitely go with that. Since a Token system would make it possible to farm so many tokens that you don't need to do new content anymore.

Like no need to do the new Golem I just buy it all with the tokens I have.

Same with a BP Transmute System. I would farm cheap BP and then when new Content is out just use all of them to get what I want.

I weighted RNG would help much more and also wouldn't new GUI changes. You could even make it to take into account different players in a group.

With 1 Player you shift the drop Table 100%, with 2 only 50%.

Like if you have 1 common already it will change it's drop by -1% for 2 players you would shift it only -0.5%. If the second player has 4 of that Item he would shift it another -2% witch would result in -2.5% drop for that Item.

So the more of the Items are already held in a party the lower the chance to get it.

[Doomsong]

That would gimp player trying to get that item in PUG. Since other players might just lower his chances without him knowing it.

 

With farming cheap stuff yes you could do that but if system is properly weighted you would get very small amount of points from easy to farm stuff.. My "recycling" idea would not let you easily farm 20 same bp since you would effort to reward included. BP would have lower point value than crafted items. Since those would include resouce/credits and time sink included. Void BP would have higer point value than normal bp since you need to farm keys first. 

 

OR

 

Puting a DR on point value from puting same copies in certian time frame would prevent abusing system by farming cheap BP. Second same item in 24H would for example give only 80% of tis normal value. 3rd 60% 4th 40% 5th+ 20%

Edited September 23, 2013 by Doomsong

[Unknown924]

If loot is adjusted for what players have, then the resulting drops/rewards should be determined for each player individually, not the entire team like it is currently.