See? I Told You.

[DarkFireRogue]

Throughout all of the complaining, I refused to think that Digital Extremes was some jerk, affluence valuing corporation. As you will see in this post from DE_Sheldon, representing the whole development team, all of these changes were accidental.

 

Digital Extremes is comprised of humans. Making mistakes is natural, but the good thing is that they are/have fixing/fixed it.

 

I will admit that communication seems to be an issue, and they could have notified everyone of the mistakes earlier, however, can we please not hold anyone to the standard of perfection? With that, are there any other issues that I should be aware of? They've addressed forma, recipe ingredient numbers, and other drop rates. I see nothing wrong anymore, but I don't want any possible bias in this, so seriously, are there any other issues?

[FoxyKabam]

[Anarook]

People seem to neglect the fact that most companies would never even tell you the mistake was there or tell you anything about what goes on internally for that matter.

 

Granted, DE has built a hell of an image to maintain, but good god people, can't be perfect all the time.

[TisEric]

People seem to neglect the fact that most companies would never even tell you the mistake was there or tell you anything about what goes on internally for that matter.

 

Granted, DE has built a hell of an image to maintain, but good god people, can't be perfect all the time.

 

People usually don't make the same mistake twice... and lie about it.. twice....

Sometimes people need a good kick in the nads to see reason , we do that.

 

The unfortunate reality for them was that this + all the old wounds + Cedric leaving 

made quite a big stir in the pot, one which could not be ignored not without high repercussions. 

[Otaiken]

People seem to neglect the fact that most companies would never even tell you the mistake was there or tell you anything about what goes on internally for that matter.

 

Granted, DE has built a hell of an image to maintain, but good god people, can't be perfect all the time.

 

Well, they didn't really tell us to be honest. This blew up after one of the players mined the drop data from the game. What DE did was damage control.. they didn't really tell us about the mistake until we found it.

 

Shades of gray people... DE is not evil, but they might not be saints either.

[GSGregory]

Throughout all of the complaining, I refused to think that Digital Extremes was some jerk, affluence valuing corporation. As you will see in this post from DE_Sheldon, representing the whole development team, all of these changes were accidental.

 

Digital Extremes is comprised of humans. Making mistakes is natural, but the good thing is that they are/have fixing/fixed it.

 

I will admit that communication seems to be an issue, and they could have notified everyone of the mistakes earlier, however, can we please not hold anyone to the standard of perfection? With that, are there any other issues that I should be aware of? They've addressed forma, recipe ingredient numbers, and other drop rates. I see nothing wrong anymore, but I don't want any possible bias in this, so seriously, are there any other issues?

 

First off at this point it can be said they are only doing it to put out the flames but mainly here is this. If no one complained would they of done anything at all?

 

Now I don't want to sound like I am painting them as evil ect I am just playing the counter argument here. This apology was the right move in the right direction I only hope they continue with more of its kind( not apology's but communication with the players)

Edited September 20, 2013 by GSGregory

[Xelorx]

They could of just sit there. Honestly they thrive on the image of being responsive to their players, which isn't to imply anything bad. It's kind of dumb that some of these mistakes could've been avoided in the first place. However, it's much better support than I would see from any other F2P company.

 

And I can't complain about the free plat.

[Archistopheles]

Shades of gray people... DE is not evil, but they might not be saints either.

 

No more evil than a grocery store. To turn a profit you need to sell your product for more than it cost you to make it. That's just how companies work.

[GSGregory]

No more evil than a grocery store. To turn a profit you need to sell your product for more than it cost you to make it. That's just how companies work.

And yet many companies try for short term profit instead of long term profit.

[DJSmash]

The way i interpreted the whole saga is that the reason DE came out with an apology notice was because players they themselves found out about the void drop rate value was whack out as opposed to what was mentioned in the last live stream.

 

So what did they do next? Apologize and make it up to us. A sincere act? That's for you to decide yourself.

Edited September 20, 2013 by DJSmash

[CY13ERPUNK]

People seem to neglect the fact that most companies would never even tell you the mistake was there or tell you anything about what goes on internally for that matter.

 

Granted, DE has built a hell of an image to maintain, but good god people, can't be perfect all the time.

^^^^^^^^^^^

[GSGregory]

People seem to neglect the fact that most companies would never even tell you the mistake was there or tell you anything about what goes on internally for that matter.

 

Granted, DE has built a hell of an image to maintain, but good god people, can't be perfect all the time.

Ok.. so your argument is that because the worst companies are well worse we should hold de to a lower standard?

 

My problem remains:

 

Lack of communication as to what the devs are doing/thinking

Patchnotes lacking information

Ninja changes not communicated

Buggy as hell updates that feel and seem rushed and untested.

 

Some of that like bugs will simply happen but with so much broken so often I can't give em slack for it.

Edited September 20, 2013 by GSGregory

[BETAOPTICS]

Yeah they first said it was an " accident " or whatever it is called these days, then DE_Steve said Mutagen Sample for example was working as intended and now it got a major relief and is good again. I had faith to a certain extent for sure but I was also afraid and concerned and for a good reason too. Since Borderlands 1 I haven't felt anything like it and this. I think I can say that this game has become my alltime favorite game number dos. I would hate to see it die and thus I try to voice my opinions on how to fix it and they delivered. Now, I hope DE doesn't stop here. There is still plenty of stuff to do and time is ticking forward all the time.

[Daspic]

I swear, looking over the topics in GD it seems that a lot of people on these forums wear tin foil hats 24/7. Everything is a conspiracy.

 

 

Such a p!ss-poor attitude to have.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Daspic

[TisEric]

I swear, looking over the topics in GD it seems that a lot of people on these forums wear tin foil hats 24/7. Everything is a conspiracy.

 

 

Such a p!ss-poor attitude to have.

 

If telling the truth and being transparent were things DE did there would be no need for Tin foil hats and Paranoia.

[Ashmedai]

I want to speak to one thing and one thing only.

 

The repeated slandering of DE by saying they lied.

 

Prove it.

 

To prove they lied you need TWO things.  Proof that information that was given was incorrect AND proof that it was done deliberately and/or with malice.

 

So far they have admitted to the first part and explained how they in fact misinformed people by having improper communication internally.  Key word here... misinformed, not lied.  Until you can show proof of intent all you are doing is lying yourself (purposely misinforming) and are the epitome of hypocrisy.  People (and by extension companies) make mistakes.  No one was harmed by this mistake.  Maybe inconvenienced for a bit but no harm.  So either PROVE they lied or (ahem) close your vocal orifice violently.

[vladiko2]

I want to speak to one thing and one thing only.

 

The repeated slandering of DE by saying they lied.

 

Prove it.

 

To prove they lied you need TWO things.  Proof that information that was given was incorrect AND proof that it was done deliberately and/or with malice.

 

So far they have admitted to the first part and explained how they in fact misinformed people by having improper communication internally.  Key word here... misinformed, not lied.  Until you can show proof of intent all you are doing is lying yourself (purposely misinforming) and are the epitome of hypocrisy.  People (and by extension companies) make mistakes.  No one was harmed by this mistake.  Maybe inconvenienced for a bit but no harm.  So either PROVE they lied or (ahem) close your vocal orifice violently.

and you must prove they don't lied.

[Sebastianx]

DE is by FAR the best game company out there.Reporting a bug and seeing it get fixed,coming up with an idea what actually gets implemented into the game,stuff like that makes you feel that you're important in the game,and not some random mindless ant in a colony where the queen just gives the order and does what she pleases. <3 DE

[Ashmedai]

and you must prove they don't lied.

 

I have.  Simply put they have stated why they said what they did (poor internal communication) and unless someone can prove otherwise then the accusation is faulty and a lie itself since it is done intentionally while knowing the facts that are out and as stated.

 

In short, just like most justice systems, innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Ashmedai

[TisEric]

I want to speak to one thing and one thing only.

 

The repeated slandering of DE by saying they lied.

 

Prove it.

 

To prove they lied you need TWO things.  Proof that information that was given was incorrect AND proof that it was done deliberately and/or with malice.

 

So far they have admitted to the first part and explained how they in fact misinformed people by having improper communication internally.  Key word here... misinformed, not lied.  Until you can show proof of intent all you are doing is lying yourself (purposely misinforming) and are the epitome of hypocrisy.  People (and by extension companies) make mistakes.  No one was harmed by this mistake.  Maybe inconvenienced for a bit but no harm.  So either PROVE they lied or (ahem) close your vocal orifice violently.

 

 

Ok , Few updates ago , don't remember which one exactly DE introduced new items to the void.

Everything was dandy , Then suddenly Platinum coupons and void key packs and other things became available....

A bit weird no one gave it much thought , but then ... things changed.

 

Getting things in the Void became extremely rare , common items were not dropping , parts of items were extinct to all but the must devoted people.

There was a fuss on the forums stating that void drop rates are buged, DE on forums and on live stream said "because we made more items to for the void , the pool is diluted " thats understandable.

 

Then a dataminer pulled the drop tables out , items  that were common were now uncommon or rare , some items went  down to 1% or 5% or 2 % chances of dropping. Obviously it meant DE changed the tables deliberately to accommodate the new things they added such as void packs and platinum discounts.

 

They continued to claim it was just a mistake , up until that data was brought to light.

Only then they changed the tune to "were sorry it was just miss communication"

 

 

 

Now after these few months we stand in the EXACT same issue , under the EXACT same circumstances and again DE claimed it was dilution.

But the data mined information  proves the Tables were changed yet again. 

Suddenly DE says "its miss communication , mistakes  were made , slipped past our nets".

No , this does not just go by unnoticed when the entirety of the Update is about the Void.

 

 

This shows clear Intent to nickle and dime people on those void packs.

Its common practice for F2P games to lower chances for things when a sale goes live, or making the new things over powered so people buy it then nerf it .

 

 

The fact that they had to go so far as to Apologize in such a way and to hand our "good will" Platinum just to save some face is proof enough.

As to people did not get hurt.... I was hurt that a company i trusted gave me the Finger twice over the same issue.

Many others were hurt that so much money they spent on void packs resulted in nothing because the Rate on a lot of things was cut to 0.67%

Huge amount of people lost Materials and platinum to make those Clantech weapons that were extremely over priced.

 

 

You tell me , why people are so upset.

And tell me how  the did not lie.

Edited September 21, 2013 by TisEric

[DJSmash]

To add on.

Perhaps some people were not aware of what took place recently. so here are some links for you to read and then decide for yourself.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110364-data-mined-drop-tables/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110396-mistakes-revealed-by-datamining-or-lack-of-communication-the-problem-behind-the-problem/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110333-some-more-datamining-stuff-from-reddit/

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110581-update-11-rebuilding-the-bridge/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/110747-sorry-isnt-enough-you-still-havent-told-the-truth-de/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/109912-i-meant-to-write-about-death-only-life-came-breaking-in-as-usual/

 

Edit#: decided to add more links

Edited September 21, 2013 by DJSmash

[Ashmedai]

Ok , Few updates ago , don't remember which one exactly DE introduced new items to the void.

Everything was dandy , Then suddenly Platinum coupons and void key packs and other things became available....

A bit weird no one gave it much thought , but then ... things changed.

 

Getting things in the Void became extremely rare , common items were not dropping , parts of items were extinct to all but the must devoted people.

There was a fuss on the forums stating that void drop rates are buged, DE on forums and on live stream said "because we made more items to for the void , the pool is diluted " thats understandable.

 

Then a dataminer pulled the drop tables out , items  that were common were now uncommon or rare , some items went  down to 1% or 5% or 2 % chances of dropping. Obviously it meant DE changed the tables deliberately to accommodate the new things they added such as void packs and platinum discounts.

 

They continued to claim it was just a mistake , up until that data was brought to light.

Only then they changed the tune to "were sorry it was just miss communication"

 

 

 

Now after these few months we stand in the EXACT same issue , under the EXACT same circumstances and again DE claimed it was dilution.

But the data mined information  proves the Tables were changed yet again. 

Suddenly DE says "its miss communication , mistakes  were made , slipped past our nets".

No , this does not just go by unnoticed when the entirety of the Update is about the Void.

 

 

This shows clear Intent to nickle and dime people on those void packs.

Its common practice for F2P games to lower chances for things when a sale goes live, or making the new things over powered so people buy it then nerf it .

 

 

The fact that they had to go so far as to Apologize in such a way and to hand our "good will" Platinum just to save some face is proof enough.

As to people did not get hurt.... I was hurt that a company i trusted gave me the Finger twice over the same issue.

Many others were hurt that so much money they spent on void packs resulted in nothing because the Rate on a lot of things was cut to 0.67%

Huge amount of people lost Materials and platinum to make those Clantech weapons that were extremely over priced.

 

 

You tell me , why people are so upset.

And tell me how  the did not lie.

 

Lots of innuendo and conjecture but no proof of intent that they LIED.

 

I need prove nothing.  I'm not the one calling out DE and insulting people with (ironically) my own lies.  They made some mistakes.  They have owned up to those mistakes.  They even went beyond what is needed or asked for and explained what happened and THEN as a good will gesture gave away some free plat and items.  Which of course just makes them MORE guilty of lying right?

 

Divest yourself of the emotional context and look at it logically.  At what point would it EVER serve for DE to lie about something so easy to prove?

 

Sigh.

[Azure_Kytia]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

 

Now, Digital Extremes has done this exact thing twice in a row. Being a drop table, these drops and their rates of dropping have to be manually entered into the system by somebody. Why then, did they not raise the issue that "Sir/Ma'am, some of these drops are magnitudes rarer than the rest. Didn't customers have a massive outcry over that earlier in the year?"

 

This pot had been brewing for a while, but I suppose people have been getting tired of content focused updates with little to no mechanical improvements, and this droprate fiasco was the catalyst.

 

Digital Extremes is still relatively new to Free to Play games with tens of thousands of players simultaneously online. They can make mistakes, but those mistakes can be hard to correctly recover from.

 

It just so happens that this mistake is something that they should have learned from already, and hopefully won't happen again. If it does, well. I'm sure there are a lot of people on the forums who wouldn't be playing Warframe again. 

 

I think I should also say that I don't personally hold any contempt for Warframe and it's staff, I'm just saying that things have been happening for a while now and not everyone is willing to put up with it.

 

tl;dr it was an act of inexperience, not malice, but the effects were still the same had they been of malicious intent. At least, up until the apology.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[Niryco]

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

 

Now, Digital Extremes has done this exact thing twice in a row. Being a drop table, these drops and their rates of dropping have to be manually entered into the system by somebody. Why then, did they not raise the issue that "Sir/Ma'am, some of these drops are magnitudes rarer than the rest. Didn't customers have a massive outcry over that earlier in the year?"

 

This pot had been brewing for a while, but I suppose people have been getting tired of content focused updates with little to no mechanical improvements, and this droprate fiasco was the catalyst.

 

Digital Extremes is still relatively new to Free to Play games with tens of thousands of players simultaneously online. They can make mistakes, but those mistakes can be hard to correctly recover from.

 

It just so happens that this mistake is something that they should have learned from already, and hopefully won't happen again. If it does, well. I'm sure there are a lot of people on the forums who wouldn't be playing Warframe again. 

 

I think I should also say that I don't personally hold any contempt for Warframe and it's staff, I'm just saying that things have been happening for a while now and not everyone is willing to put up with it.

 

tl;dr it was an act of inexperience, not malice, but the effects were still the same had they been of malicious intent. At least, up until the apology.

I think the game's mechanics are at its limits already (as in almost all from aggro to armor to stamina, speed, health and shields as well as damage). They have acknowledged enemies scaling lead to useless weapons thus Armor 2.0, Stamina speed builds allow for speed clearing and the weak argument of "rushers mentality" , Nyx absorb is already at aggro limit, any higher and they would need to develop a new system.

 

Damage of mobs are not capped and just being ridiculous, shields don't hold up as well as health and generally deplete faster than health, powers don't scale and caster frames become situational, etc etc. This game has reached its mechanical limits in general and as players demanding more, DE has to work around tight corners to implement these changes and none of which really worked at all.

 

The problem is high-end battles and builds probably wasn't on DE's original intent for the game. Neither are all this crazy amount of loot from a small amount of sources to acquire them. If the number of sources (say void missions) were increased, the amount of loot accommodated would be increased, but as it goes, we can see the physical limit of the game is pretty much reached and they are also trying to implement new systems so that the game can grow and players seamlessly enjoy it.

 

Sadly none of this has bore fruits but hated replies in general. DE is probably very reluctant to introduce any new mechanics too, i mean we don't know how much of the game's engine can process all this and whether it can't come up with newer systems that would allow the game to stay in tip-top condition or unchanged. Overall it boils down to the fact DE probably didn't take into account events for end-tier too much. I mean even the Mod tree revamp would be a good example and that cost them alot of money, probably all other reworks could cost them that much too if they had to be implemented just for a thought.

[TisEric]

Lots of innuendo and conjecture but no proof of intent that they LIED.

 

I need prove nothing.  I'm not the one calling out DE and insulting people with (ironically) my own lies.  They made some mistakes.  They have owned up to those mistakes.  They even went beyond what is needed or asked for and explained what happened and THEN as a good will gesture gave away some free plat and items.  Which of course just makes them MORE guilty of lying right?

 

Divest yourself of the emotional context and look at it logically.  At what point would it EVER serve for DE to lie about something so easy to prove?

 

Sigh.

 

Twice - the rewards are diluted , twice the answer was they changed the tables.

are you not aware what lying is?

 

i did not insult them i merely stated the practices they used.

they made mistakes.. sure .

did they own up to them? .... only after the data proved they did.

Apology and platinum , mere damage control at that point. that's how a business operates.

 

Emotional context has no meaning in this argument fact are facts.

Edited September 21, 2013 by TisEric