What is the base melee range for each type of zaw?

[JadeKaiser]

Hello everyone. I've heard multiple different statements about the base melee range of zaws, which seem to be of two different beliefs on the subject.

One is that all two handed zaws (polearm, heavy blade, hammer, etc.) share the same range, and all one handed zaws (dagger, sword, nikana, etc.) share another.

The other opinion is that the range is not consistent from one weapon type to another based only on the grip, such as heavy blades being different from polearms and daggers different from swords, but still that they are consistent within the same weapon type.

I would like it if someone more knowledgeable could clear the matter up for me, and I would like to know what those base ranges are. Everybody and their mother knows that "zaw polearms are the farthest-reaching melee in the game," and possibly just how far that reach actually is, but I can't get a consistent confirmation about other zaws. Does that same number hold true for heavy blades? How about one-handed zaws, like nikanas, swords and daggers? If they are different, what are the numbers for non-polearm two-handed zaws? If they aren't, then still, what about the one-handed ones?

I feel like I heard some quick numbers based on the first school of thought in a Youtube video once, but that was a long, LONG time ago and I have no idea which one.

 

 

[shut]

54 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

Everybody and their mother knows that "zaw polearms are the farthest-reaching melee in the game,"

Some polearms (OrthosPrime, Guandao, and Cassowar) actually reach significantly further at base! Whips as well, although their hitboxes tend to be buggy and unreliable without Primed Reach equipped.

 

Regarding the base ranges of weapon categories-- the long story short is that Zaws seem to have incredibly wonky hitboxes that make an actual "base range" difficult to pin down, even with Primed Reach equipped. Non-zaw weapons will behave more consistently.
Let's look at polearms and staves, for example-- When looking at a basic attack with seemingly-unmodified hitbox length (e.g. the first hit of Shimmering Blight for polearms, or the first hit of Clashing Forest for staves), the weapons seem to be split into four distinct categories. These are the ranges measured with a maxed Primed Reach, give or take ~0.1m:

• 8.1m - Orthos Prime, Guandao, Cassowar
• ???m - Zaw Polearms (they be buggy af, and haven't been fixed since literally 2017)
• ???m - Zaw Staff (I've never tested, but I assume that they're similarly buggy)
• 5.5m - Orthos, Kesheg, Tonbo, Sydon, and presumably all other Polearms aside from Lesion
• 4.2m - Lesion, Amphis, Mk1-Bo, Bo Prime, Tipedo, and I assume all other Staves

(Fun fact: I also tested out a few longswords/dualswords a while back, and interestingly, they also tended to be split into similar "length categories". Some swords like Dex Dakra and Twin Krokhur had Staff-like (4.2m) range, while other swords like Dual Ichor were shorter to the point that accurate measurements felt impossible.
The long ones got hit with a stealth nerf since then, so as of the last time I tested them out, they're all the same (shorter) length now. Needs confirmation, though, it's been a while.)

But yeah, with the Polearm and Staff and (outdated) Longsword/Dualsword range tests, it seems that the "base lengths" of weapons across categories might be more similar than we thought. Maybe to the point that certain weapons within the same "range category" (e.g. Lesion & staves & pre-nerf-DexDakra, assuming the consistent 4.2m isn't just a coincidence) might have straight-up identical hitboxes at base.
I'm not sure about heavy blades, though. Haven't tested the ranges for those at all, Zaw or otherwise.

 

Regarding whether Zaws have any "variance" within the same category based on grip... I've got no clue, but I'm curious about this as well. It seems that it'd be a bit difficult to calculate due to the inherent wonkiness of zaw hitboxes (for polearms, at least), but if anyone with a wide variety of Polearm grips or something could test it out, that'd be great!
Come to think of it, I'm also kind of curious as to whether Strikes contribute to the hitbox as well...

 

EDIT:
Just to clarify, I've only really tested the ranges for the weapons that I listed above. As for lengths from heavy blades / longswords / daggers / etc (Zaw or otherwise), hopefully someone with more experience could enlighten us!

Edited September 2, 2019 by SortaRandom

[JadeKaiser]

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

Some polearms (OrthosPrime, Guandao, and Cassowar) actually reach significantly further at base! Whips as well, although their hitboxes tend to be buggy and unreliable without Primed Reach equipped.

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

???m - Zaw Polearms (they be buggy af, and haven't been fixed since literally 2017)

Ah, this is actually a thing I would like to address, seeing as it seems you are running off of outdated info. The one thing that is actually well known is that all zaw polearms have identical range to the Orthos Prime, the previous longest range melee in the game (supposedly). This is something I have personally tested myself, and contrary to what you are saying it does appear to be consistently true. It has been that way since a consistency fix/change they made quite a while ago (over a year iirc), and isn't actually part of my question because I actually do know that already.

That's why that isn't actually my question. The question is for all the other zaw types; whether different weapon types have different ranges, or if it's just down to all one-handed being the same and all two-handed being the same. And of course, what those ranges are, especially if the former is true.

For reference, my own personal testing seems to show that zaw hammers and heavy blades have a slightly longer reach than polearms (almost 9m for a standing single strike with my Primed Reach on, and my Primed Reach is 2 ranks short of maxed). This might be the result of having different stances, rather than the base number however. Especially as that initial strike with a heavy blade or a hammer is a lot easier to measure, as in some stances it doesn't include a step forward the way all the polearm stances do. Which actually makes me more inclined to think that heavy blade and hammer zaws have even more of a range advantage, with the way it comes out looking, but I don't want to bet on it.

The main thing I'm asking is because base range on different zaw types is something that I always want to be able to check when I go to build a new one, because it's a big part of my decision as to whether or not it's actually worth the trouble to build and grind up a zaw of that type. But I can't find that info anywhere, except people harping over and over on the high range that polearm zaws have. Which doesn't help me when I'm deciding whether or not I should make a nikana zaw based on the weight of how much time it takes to build, guild, and forma a zaw compared to how much I will end up using it and its ability to actually hit enemies without me figuratively rubbing noses with them.

Edited September 2, 2019 by JadeKaiser

[shut]

41 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

Ah, this is actually a thing I would like to address, seeing as it seems you are running off of outdated info. The one thing that is actually well known is that all zaw polearms have identical range to the Orthos Prime, the previous longest range melee in the game (supposedly). This is something I have personally tested myself, and contrary to what you are saying it does appear to be consistently true.

Oooh, interesting!
The last time I tested this was a few months back, around the time that one of the devs (Sheldon, I think?) was answering a bunch of players' questions on stream about various game mechanics. I'll test this ingame in a bit, though-- if the Zaw hitboxes are indeed OrthosP-tier now, then that's a nice overall buff from what it was before!

 

41 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

That's why that isn't actually my question. The question is for all the other zaw types; whether different weapon types have different ranges, or if it's just down to all one-handed being the same and all two-handed being the same. And of course, what those ranges are, especially if the former is true.

...

The main thing I'm asking is because base range on different zaw types is something that I always want to be able to check when I go to build a new one, because it's a big part of my decision as to whether or not it's actually worth the trouble to build and grind up a zaw of that type. But I can't find that info anywhere, except people harping over and over on the high range that polearm zaws have. Which doesn't help me when I'm deciding whether or not I should make a nikana zaw based on the weight of how much time it takes to build, guild, and forma a zaw compared to how much I will end up using it and its ability to actually hit enemies without me figuratively rubbing noses with them.

Oh, I know, I was just kinda vomiting all of my knowledge about hitboxes at once. Again, I'm not sure about this either since I've never bothered testing it out.

41 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

For reference, my own personal testing seems to show that zaw hammers and heavy blades have a slightly longer reach than polearms (almost 9m for a standing single strike with my Primed Reach on, and my Primed Reach is 2 ranks short of maxed). This might be the result of having different stances, rather than the base number however. Especially as that initial strike with a heavy blade or a hammer is a lot easier to measure, as in some stances it doesn't include a step forward the way all the polearm stances do. Which actually makes me more inclined to think that heavy blade and hammer zaws have even more of a range advantage, with the way it comes out looking, but I don't want to bet on it.

Hm... maybe the hammers and heavy blades ending up longer might actually be due to the Strikes being considered in the hitbox. The Rabvee and Dokrahm strikes look significantly longer than the strikes that give polearms/staves, so that would make sense. (Needs testing, though.)

Also, this might be a bit of a no-brainer, but when testing polearms, have you tried crouching while attacking? The reason I chose the first swings of Shimmering Blight and Clashing Forest for my tests is partly that they give nice, clean swing arcs, and partly that they have "full freedom of leg movement" (WASD/sprint/crouch/etc), meaning that you can prevent the step from happening by simply crouching during the swing.

Edited September 2, 2019 by SortaRandom

[JadeKaiser]

23 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Hm... maybe the hammers and heavy blades ending up longer might actually be due to the Strikes being considered in the hitbox. The Rabvee and Dokrahm strikes look significantly longer than the strikes that give polearms/staves, so that would make sense. (Needs testing, though.)

One of the big things with the consistency update I mentioned was a confirmation that all strikes are the same length, as I recall. It's completely down to the weapon type. I just wasn't certain if all the two-handed weapon types were the same as each other (and the same for all the one-handed ones). As I continue to experiment though, I think I can rule out the idea that they are the same; especially with crouching like you're saying, my stave and my polearms are starting to hit right as the waypoint reading goes from 8m to 7m, while my hammer and my heavy blade are starting to hit as it goes from 9m to 8m (quick reminder that my Primed Reach isn't maxed). It seems clear that staves and polearms are the same, and hammers and heavy blades are the same, but staves and polearms are shorter than hammers and heavy blades.

Thanks for that tip with the crouching btw, it did help. Now I just need the actual numbers, and the info on one-handed weapons.

Edited September 2, 2019 by JadeKaiser

[shut]

So I just tested out the Zaw Polearm hitboxes, using a Cyath+Seekalla zaw.

The Zaw polearm hitboxes are still HELLA wonky. It still behaves almost exactly as I described in the thread I linked in my first post (literally November 2017), with the zaw hitting with okayish consistency at around 7.9m, but sometimes completely missing its target depending on where you're aiming. I'm literally in the Simulacrum now, swinging my zaw (Primed Reach, no riven) at a Roller Eximus (nice spherical hitbox) using the first hit of Shimmering Blight, and consistently missing at 7.0m from the target if I aim slightly to the right of dead-center. OrthosP still hits consistently at 8.1m, and (while this isn't measured nearly as accurately) its slide attacks still feel like they reach further than the Zaw's.

 

10 minutes ago, JadeKaiser said:

One of the big things with the consistency update I mentioned was a confirmation that all strikes are the same length, as I recall. It's completely down to the weapon type. I just wasn't certain if all the two-handed weapon types were the same as each other (and the same for all the one-handed ones). As I continue to experiment though, I think I can rule out the idea that they are the same; especially with crouching like you're saying, my stave and my polearms are starting to hit right as the waypoint reading goes from 8m to 7m, while my hammer and my heavy blade are starting to hit as it goes from 9m to 8m (quick reminder that my Primed Reach isn't maxed). It seems clear that staves and polearms are the same, and hammers and heavy blades are the same, but staves and polearms are shorter than hammers and heavy blades.

Thanks for that tip with the crouching btw, it did help. Now I just need the actual numbers, and the info on one-handed weapons.

Ooh, instead of relying on the waypoint marker, you should try using a sniper rifle scope as a measuring tape! It measures distance to the first decimal place, and you can more easily "target" parts of the enemy that are closest to you. Gives more accurate and more-consistent results that way.

Also, yeah, I faintly recall that "consistency update" as well. I feel like polearms with Primed Reach have become "narrower" since that update (in the sense that slide attacks, for example, don't have nearly the same "vertical reach" that they did before), but I haven't really noticed any substantial difference in horizontal reach...

[JadeKaiser]

Zaw hitboxes are a bit wonky and narrow vertically, yes. I believe your problem is that you're targeting a roller, which is really, really short. Your attacks are just swinging over the top. Thing is, vertical distance is rarely an issue compared to horizontal, since there's very few enemies that short. Like, it's going to make you miss rollers and latchers sometimes, but there's not much else. Infested crawlers when they aren't moving around are I think the only other thing, and if they are moving then you usually hit their arm.

I might try the sniper scope method later, but I'm definitely done with testing stuff for tonight. It's a good idea, though.

[shut]

1 hour ago, JadeKaiser said:

Zaw hitboxes are a bit wonky and narrow vertically, yes. I believe your problem is that you're targeting a roller, which is really, really short. Your attacks are just swinging over the top.

You'd think so, right? But nope, the "blind spot" on the hitbox is only for a narrow range of angles, facing the roller almost dead on.
That is: the swing is an arc from your FoV's upper left to lower right, which means that you'd expect a huge "gap" on the lower left, no? As in, if you aim too far to the right, you'd eventually expect the polearm to just whoosh over the roller without ever coming into contact.

That's not what's happening, though-- aiming more to the right of this "blind spot" that I'm describing (which, again, appears when facing the roller almost dead on) causes the zaw to start hitting again, which indicates that it's not as clear-cut an issue as "zaws have shorter vertical reach" or something. If it was, then I likely wouldn't have made that "wonky zaw hitboxes" thread back in November 2017, and I definitely wouldn't have reproduced its findings today. Not to mention that this isn't nearly the only blind spot; they seem to come and go depending on minute changes in distance.

Similar issues will occasionally happen during regular gameplay, where a zaw swing completely "misses" a target within range despite having a clear line of sight. Wee bit frustrating.

Edited September 2, 2019 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

but sometimes completely missing its target depending on where you're aiming.

i mean, Melee Weapons are pretty much all like that, just varying in angle/location relative to the Player depending on which Animation.

[shut]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

i mean, Melee Weapons are pretty much all like that, just varying in angle/location relative to the Player depending on which Animation.

Fair. My point is that this seems to happen quite a bit more often for zaw polearms, though, since their hitboxes have been particularly janky since release.

[JadeKaiser]

16 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Fair. My point is that this seems to happen quite a bit more often for zaw polearms, though, since their hitboxes have been particularly janky since release.

Yes, zaw hitboxes aren't the best. However, this isn't the thread for talking about zaw hitboxes in general, or the details of how they get warped oddly by Reach and its primed variant; this is about their range specifically. Your focus on the polearms in particular is getting irritating, because I've said repeatedly both in the OP and otherwise that polearms are probably the one zaw type that I do not need to talk about for this, because I already know about them. As does pretty much everyone else.

The whole purpose of this question and this thread is to gather a specific set of info that people aren't talking about, and hopefully have it in one place. What you are doing is the exact opposite. By laser-focusing on polearms the same way that people do literally everywhere else that zaws are mentioned, we are getting no info whatsoever on the actual subject of the thread.

I don't want to see anybody mention polearms again except if it's in a range comparison with another zaw type, and even then I believe we've pretty much covered it since we've got a fair reading on the two-handed zaws. Nor do I want to see general hitbox discussion. This is about zaw base range, with stuff like measuring while Primed Reach is equipped being a necessary evil because most of the people who measure such things don't think of the fact that some people might want to know what the range is by default instead. Not vertical hitboxes, not swing angle differences between stances or how some swings reach farther at different parts of the arc, none of that. If it ain't relevant, discuss it elsewhere.

Edited September 3, 2019 by JadeKaiser

[Xzorn]

I can't exactly tell you base range as I always test with Primed Reach but...

Heavy Blade, Staff, Polearms are all 10m.

1handers, Scythe, Swords, Machete, Rapier, Nikana are 3m.

Daggers are leg hump. I "think" the hammer is 7m tied with Volnus and Jat for highest Reach hammers.

It actually is that standardized. When Zaws got buffed early in PoE DE decided to top end them on Reach values for some reason. They're all the highest of their respective weapon types. Until recently Hammers were probably the most varied in weapon Reach with Orthos Prime being the only 10m polearm. All others were same as Serro / Tonbo at 7m and all Heavy Blades outside the Zaw are still 7m. Later Lesion was added then Pupacyst which were notably shorter than other polearms.

If you ever want to test weapon reach just take the stance off and join a defense mission. Jupiter Io has always been my go to. Even after the tileset swap. There's always canisters to hit. Mark the canister well as note tile placement on the floor and creepy towards the mark until you hit the canister. Always use the same attack when testing as different attacks have different reach.

[shut]

3 hours ago, JadeKaiser said:

Yes, zaw hitboxes aren't the best. However, this isn't the thread for talking about zaw hitboxes in general, or the details of how they get warped oddly by Reach and its primed variant; this is about their range specifically.

...

Nor do I want to see general hitbox discussion. This is about zaw base range

This might come as a bit of a shock to you, but there's no way to accurately measure range if the hitboxes are so wonky that measurements become inconsistent. That's literally the reason I brought up hitboxes in the first place, my dude.

3 hours ago, JadeKaiser said:

Your focus on the polearms in particular is getting irritating, because I've said repeatedly both in the OP and otherwise that polearms are probably the one zaw type that I do not need to talk about for this, because I already know about them. As does pretty much everyone else.

You know so much about polearms that you incorrectly "corrected" me in saying that zaw polearms have OrthosP-like range? ^{Which, if I may add, started bringing the conversation to where it is right now?} Common knowledge indeed.

But yeah, regarding your point about me laser-focusing on polearms when you didn't request that information-- I'm realizing now that I misread your OP. I had somehow misinterpreted it as you requesting exact range information for the different Zaw categories, as opposed to strictly non-Polearm zaw categories. That's my bad.

Honestly, though, I feel like I still would've posted all that polearm stuff even if I had read your OP correctly. Maybe I'm being a bit presumptuous, but in a thread requesting details about zaw ranges, I think it's good to bring up relevant information that people reading this thread might not have already known.

3 hours ago, JadeKaiser said:

stuff like measuring while Primed Reach is equipped being a necessary evil because most of the people who measure such things don't think of the fact that some people might want to know what the range is by default instead.

Primed Reach is used because the uncertainty of measurement (i.e. ~0.1m if you're using a sniper scope) is constant regardless of how long the weapon is. You want the uncertainty to be small compared to the measurement itself.
If you've got a weapon that reaches 100.0m, then a simulacrum test will tell you that it's "100.0m, give or take ~0.1m" (i.e. hella accurate); whereas if you've got a weapon that reaches 0.01m, then a simulacrum test will tell you that it's "0.01m, give or take ~0.1m" (i.e. hella inaccurate). Extreme example, but you get the idea.

If it's base range you want, then divide by 2.65. (And yes, I have tested this out on a variety of non-Zaw weapon types-- the base ranges for the non-Zaw weapons have been incredibly consistent with the "PR range ÷ 2.65" prediction.)

 

3 hours ago, JadeKaiser said:

I don't want to see anybody mention polearms again

Yes, mom.

Edited September 3, 2019 by SortaRandom

[JadeKaiser]

On 2019-09-02 at 11:39 PM, SortaRandom said:

Yes, mom.

Okay yeah, the things you're saying are generally valid. What I meant was along the lines of, "this is going off topic, onto the same stuff that always gets covered when I made this thread to find out all the other things. Can we please get back on topic? In fact let's just say no more on this at all, to keep it from happening again."

It came out a lot harsher and more judgmental than I intended, and I'm sorry for that. Unfortunately, tone of speech and such don't convey well via text.

On 2019-09-02 at 10:29 PM, Xzorn said:

I can't exactly tell you base range as I always test with Primed Reach but...

Heavy Blade, Staff, Polearms are all 10m.

1handers, Scythe, Swords, Machete, Rapier, Nikana are 3m.

Daggers are leg hump. I "think" the hammer is 7m tied with Volnus and Jat for highest Reach hammers.

It actually is that standardized. When Zaws got buffed early in PoE DE decided to top end them on Reach values for some reason. They're all the highest of their respective weapon types. Until recently Hammers were probably the most varied in weapon Reach with Orthos Prime being the only 10m polearm. All others were same as Serro / Tonbo at 7m and all Heavy Blades outside the Zaw are still 7m. Later Lesion was added then Pupacyst which were notably shorter than other polearms.

If you ever want to test weapon reach just take the stance off and join a defense mission. Jupiter Io has always been my go to. Even after the tileset swap. There's always canisters to hit. Mark the canister well as note tile placement on the floor and creepy towards the mark until you hit the canister. Always use the same attack when testing as different attacks have different reach.

Yeah, I know calculating back from Primed Reach is the way to go. Like I was saying, it's a necessary evil, if only because not everybody has a maxed Primed Reach and I would like the collected info to be convenient for everybody. Calculating back to get it, like SortaRandom was saying above, is just something that I'll probably have to end up doing myself before I collate all the results into one place for other people to use. Would still be slightly more convenient if people did it for me ahead of time, but not a huge deal.

Thanks for the info, though I do find myself a little sceptical that it's completely accurate because of how my own tests showed Heavy Blade and Hammer zaws as having about the same range, and it being longer than Staves and Polearms. And not by an insignificant amount, either. Measuring in a Defense mission instead of Captura or the Simulacrum seems a bit odd, since that would mean having to deal with enemies interrupting you. If you want to use a container, I think Captura would probably be a better way to go about it.

The other thing I would note, is that I don't think unequipping your stance does anything beneficial for tests like these. The quick melee attacks with no stance equipped are always just the first couple attacks in the "spam E while standing still" combo from one of the stances that already exists, as far as I've been able to discern. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, though.

Anyways, given the inconsistency with my own tests, I don't think I want to just use what you've given me at base. It's an excellent data point though, the most complete I've seen yet, and I'll continue running my own tests and see what other people give me to compare it with.

Edited September 4, 2019 by JadeKaiser

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, JadeKaiser said:

though I do find myself a little sceptical that it's completely accurate because of how my own tests showed Heavy Blade and Hammer zaws as having about the same range, and it being longer than Staves and Polearms. And not by an insignificant amount, either. Measuring in a Defense mission instead of Captura or the Simulacrum seems a bit odd, since that would mean having to deal with enemies interrupting you. If you want to use a container, I think Captura would probably be a better way to go about it.

The other thing I would note, is that I don't think unequipping your stance does anything beneficial for tests like these. The quick melee attacks with no stance equipped are always just the first couple attacks in the "spam E while standing still" combo from one of the stances that already exists, as far as I've been able to discern. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that, though.

Anyways, given the inconsistency with my own tests, I don't think I want to just use what you've given me at base. It's an excellent data point though, the most complete I've seen yet, and I'll continue running my own tests and see what other people give me to compare it with.

 

Compare Jat or Volnus to Wolf Hammer or Fragor Prime. You should see the difference pretty easily. Hammers are all over the place on reach.

Measuring on IO is just old tactics. I've done it forever and until recently the tiles on the floor worked well for finding differences under 1m cuz in the end we're trying to measure millimeters with a yard stick here. It doesn't work well which is also why I use Prime Reach so the difference is more apparent. There aren't any enemies at the start of an IO Defense mission. Just some canisters until you move to the objective. I just test a few canisters and tile locations then abort.

The reason to take the stance off is due to some stances changing Quick Attacks of the weapon. Tempo Royal comes to mind where the x2 spin is shorter distance than other swings. The Zaw Hammer might be 10m or 7m. I'm not 100% on that one. I don't have a Riven so there's no reason to own one and I just don't remember.

I know non-Zaw Heavy Blades are 4m without Primed Reach, 1h swords are ~1.5-2m, the larger Hammers and non-Zaw Polearms are also 4m with the Zaw polearms/staves/heavy Blades being longer. That's about the extent of base reach testing that I recall.

[Methanoid]

if only the range stat, a very important and probably useful stat to have was shown in the arsenal, you would think this pointless stat of no significance was a new thing they forgot to add or something.