Why Content Doesn't Matter

[Ceroneous]

14 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Ehh... I agree with your stance, but I think you may have gone too far in the other direction without considering some inbetween options.

I do agree Warframe could be "slowed" down. But by that, I don't mean arbitrary blocks like your standard single-player mission based game. I would rather parkour required more skill rather than how mind-numbingly easy it is now. Maybe make it that you could run past maybe 1 or 2 enemies, but any more would gun you down if you tried to ignore them. Or give enemies tether grenades. You'd think with how long they've fought the tenno, tether grenades would be standard issue by now. Maybe make it that enemies are quicker to lock down a tile making it that if you want to move fast, you have to both move fast and undetected if you don't want to be locked in.

I understand all of these are annoyances but it doesn't make sense for the enemy to let you through easily. They know of our speed and countermeasures should be introduced. However, if this will slow down the mission, rewards also need to be looked at to factor in the increase mission time. Make side objectives that give you bonus rewards. Complete mission undetected? More credits. Sabotaging the facility or ship? More bonus credits. Finding the leader of that enemy contingent and capturing him? Never enough credits. You can easily fit a lot of side objectives into a single node. However that player may have chosen that node for a focused objective (certain material or needed to complete for event) and can choose to ignore side objectives.

Bosses should most definitely not take 30 minutes to kill unless you are running underleveled and inneffective weapons. I think the kill time for normal bosses, 10 minutes max for the average player is reasonable. Considering you were referencing MHW, you should know that depending on the skill of the player, a hunt can be under 5 minutes on average. Under 3 for a skilled and lucky player, and if you are trying to speedrun, under 2 minutes.

I also think your topic is a bit too broad and some of the points you brought up deserve their own threads.

Agreed, a few people are taking the MHW line a bit too literally when I haven't mentioned trying to turn it into that game lol. Warframe is it's own game and yeah I like your ideas about enemies finding countermeasures for the Warframes speed and power. Maybe it's less slowing the game down in general and instead finding spots where we need to adjust to allow more room for enemy diversity.

[Daliena06]

19 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

I am not promoting tedious battles or Nox style enemies just situations where we can be more engaged and less shoot first all the time. But yess I agree I may have been too generous about the complete time for boss fights lol. 

I'm all for giving a bit more variety over just "Run in, bang bang bang, ten seconds later (tops) collect your loot, run to exit" but I'd sooner jump into a vat full of acid than fight Ambulas for 30 minutes so that I can -maybe- get a Trinity part I haven't yet gotten. 

I figure, if we're going to change things to be more time and effort consuming, then we should also look at the rewards so we aren't spending half an hour doing the tango with Alad V just because we need one neural sensor, or dodging Kela's Totally Legit and Not At All Breaking the Rules of Rathuum™ orbital strikes only to get my sixth Saryn Chassis when I need two Systems (one for Saryn and one for Chroma).

[Uhkretor]

13 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

My point is that we are literally skipping enemies/content without having a reason to participate in it

... I can't really say this any other way...

... You're the one skipping them though... I'm not. And as you, and anyone else that decides the same, willingly choose to zoom through enemies and ignore them, so is the choice of using other cheesing methods... Like Saryn/Prime.

... On the other hand, I'm doing exactly the opposite... Why? Its not because I'm trying to find purpose on the available content. Its because getting rid of them pays more from a mission, and also get paid by my time spent on a given mission.

 

13 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

I believe that filling that space where we run through with purposeful map design and engaging unique enemies/situations can be beneficial. 

Which is usually called "revising/reworking content"... Like what happened with Jupiter, remember that one?

. Also, it doesn't quite matter what [DE] does, people always ignore enemies. When ignoring isn't an option, they nuke the entire map and leave 99% of the drops behind... The game was slow enough back on Parkour 1.0, and people asked for "SPEED!", to slow it down would imply taking out bullet jump, which would be a regression somewhere to Parkour 1.5, in which we would have the same result as Melee 2.99997, which basically is a regression to Melee 1.0, but with stances working on Quick Melee.

 

I'm sorry, but~... What's your point again? Because what I'm seeing is someone complaining that old maps need to be reworked, without actually saying it outright.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Uhkretor

[Ceroneous]

4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

... I can't really say this any other way...

... You're the one skipping them though... I'm not. And as you, and anyone else that decides the same, willingly choose to zoom through enemies and ignore them, so is the choice of using other cheesing methods... Like Saryn/Prime.

... On the other hand, I'm doing exactly the opposite... Why? Its not because I'm trying to find purpose on the available content. Its because getting rid of them pays more from a mission, and also get paid by my time spent on a given mission.

 

Which is usually called "revising/reworking content"... Like what happened with Jupiter, remember that one?

. Also, it doesn't quite matter what [DE] does, people always ignore enemies. When ignoring isn't an option, they nuke the entire map and leave 99% of the drops behind... The game was slow enough back on Parkour 1.0, and people asked for "SPEED!", to slow it down would imply taking out bullet jump, which would be a regression somewhere to Parkour 1.5, in which we would have the same result as Melee 2.99997, which basically is a regression to Melee 1.0, but with stances working on Quick Melee.

 

I'm sorry, but~... What's your point again? Because what I'm seeing is someone complaining that old maps need to be reworked, without actually saying it outright.

You may not be skipping or cheesing maps ,but the conversation isn't about you or your preferences. The thing is the fact that people that you even acknowledged are easily cheesing maps by skipping through says there is an issue w design (including saryn). If you are satisfied with your pay and I am not satisfied with mine that is where our conversation ends. It does matter what DE designs because if the objective is to kill 100 enemies people will stay to kill 100 enemies for the reward that's why it matters to rework enemies, and it's unrealistic to rework all the maps of course, but the old map (and new) design helps promote cheesing. All I'm asking for is better design, if I was just complaining then it would be "Warframe sucks, the gameplay sucks, maps suck, DE release better content". I have provided some examples and possible solutions to the issues I see about it. Hell, I see people in here with better ideas than me about how to improve the game. Overall the game isn't horrible, it's not in a crisis, if old maps (gas city, spy vaults,etc.) get reworked awesome.

[Uhkretor]

18 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

All I'm asking for is better design

... Then all you have to do is to wait for them to rework the areas to actually fit Warframe's current reality. Maybe get better AI down the road... but~ that means you'll have to wait... And waiting can't be zoomed through and ignored... And you don't get paid for waiting either, go figure...

20 minutes ago, Ceroneous said:

You may not be skipping or cheesing maps ,but the conversation isn't about you or your preferences. The thing is the fact that people that you even acknowledged are easily cheesing maps by skipping through says there is an issue w design (including saryn). If you are satisfied with your pay and I am not satisfied with mine that is where our conversation ends.

... It was never about me or my preferences... Its about the player base sphere that you're classified into, and the player base sphere that I'm classified into, and the respective gains/losses...

Unfortunately, the player base sphere where you're classified into, they don't want anything you're suggesting. They just want to keep pressing the button, and nuking the map, or zooming through enemies anyway and ignoring them outright as icing on top. And if they can't nuke the map, they'll just find another broken build that'll allow them to nuke the map again, and if they can't then they'll just complain endlessly about it on the forums (Ember & Banshee as prime examples)...

The player base sphere where I'm classified into, fortunately, wants both higher and bigger challenges on a general level, with the proper associated rewards... But I think that the rewards part won't really happen unless we get full spawns back... Solo'ing with 1/4th spawns is actually pretty yawning, but its even worse when using AoE weapons/warframes with broken builds... One can actually feel the brain cells self-destructing by the second.

Now, about me and my preferences specifically, I'm happy for the extra challenge. In fact, if I could fight barehanded against lvl500 enemies and my abilities fully disabled, I would be a really happy camper... Who knows, maybe non-full squads will get full spawns again, which will add to the rewards for the player base sphere where I'm classified into.

 

Misunderstanding what I'm saying and then making up whatever comes to your mind about its meaning because you didn't understand what I said properly isn't helpful to the discussion...

You said you wanted a meaningful discussion, and since this is a forum and we all write our thoughts here, you should probably make an extra effort to understand what people are saying.... even if you have to read the stuff once at least, instead of skimming through it, and you have to actually think about what that person said from multiple perspectives... If you think that your perspective is the only one that actually matters here, then your thought concerning your perspective is as stupid as assuming outright that I'm replying with stuff about me or my preferences... Which I'm not, as I stated before.

I'm seeing this from a "player base sphere" perspective. I'm not including the "common ground" player base spheres because those can adapt to the situation pretty fluently.

 

On another note, I personally think that you're probably wasting your time since [DE]'s most likely already ahead of you on the matter and you're letting others know about you wasting your time... Its your time to waste, obviously, and you thought out some positive things but~.... you're already late to the party with your suggestions, if you gave any (I think you gave some)... After all, they've been sitting on the Emissary content for a year and half now (or more), I wouldn't be surprised that they already implemented new proper challenges on the new content.

Concerning the discussion and your personal hurry to shut me up by stating that I'm not having a meaningful discussion... As long as the discussion is meaningful to me, and "meaningful" is subjective AF!, you're going to have me here, one way or... another.

[Fire2box]

3 hours ago, Ceroneous said:

My point is that we are literally skipping enemies/content without having a reason to participate in it, literally parts of the map have no other reason to exist and therefore is often just ran through

It's like this because Warframe is a fast paced, looter shooter that is designed from the ground up to be grind and nothing but grind. There's a reason Capture Relic missions are spammed over Defense ones, it's much more faster. Warframe's probnlem isn't that enemies die to quickly. It's that the content at some point becomes not boring, but not worth doing. 

[Proslackernifty]

First, I'll say no thanks to all your suggestions.  But especially no thanks to bosses taking 20-30 minutes.  How long would it take to farm some of the frames if bosses took 30 minutes?  I don't want to think about it.  

Then there's this part...

6 hours ago, Ceroneous said:

---Make encounters with a sense of importance

(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)

Everyone would stop playing. This would actually kill the game faster than you can run a lith fissure.  I can't even imagine what would have to be implemented to stop players from running through missions, but it would be stupid.

[Cubewano]

15 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

It's like this because Warframe is a fast paced, looter shooter that is designed from the ground up to be grind and nothing but grind. There's a reason Capture Relic missions are spammed over Defense ones, it's much more faster. Warframe's probnlem isn't that enemies die to quickly. It's that the content at some point becomes not boring, but not worth doing. 

If that design requires a lack of engagement then it's a design not worth sticking to, that said this game has been considered a fast paced looter shooter from the start yet only the last year or two has it fallen far enough for pacing to be such an explicit problem. Gameplay can feel fast and engaging at the same time, I don't think anyone considers dmc or bayonetta slow paced games, or really any competitive shooter, or Warframe's looter shooter competitor borderlands which I'd hazard to say isn't a slow paced game either, yet all those games still manage to retain engaging and thought compelling game systems and balance despite being higher paced combat styles. If Warframe wants engaging play it can have it and remain fast paced if it so chooses, they aren't remotely incompatible, it's just a matter of committing to that kind of balance and keeping to it.

As it is now Warframe doesn't seem committed to any kind of balance though.

[Cubewano]

3 minutes ago, Proslackernifty said:

Everyone would stop playing. This would actually kill the game faster than you can run a lith fissure.  I can't even imagine what would have to be implemented to stop players from running through missions, but it would be stupid.

That this game is here today proves that patently false. Warframe wasn't always as fast paced as it is today. 

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

Here is the thing you are missing?

The game is different things to different players styles. Some want to finish as fast as possible and skip everything but have a playtime of 2 minutes or less. Others want to use their skills of stealth to see how long they can keep their Stealth Counter maxed. Some want to kill everything with a lot of pressed of the buttons while some want to nuke with one button press.

The game is the platform to do what you want with it but whatever you choose, you have to deal with the consequences of those choices. You want to go fast and finish before anything is shown? Cool, now you say it is boring. You want to walk around as a god? Go for it but you are destroying everything since it is all beneath your godliness. You want to go in weak and sneak? That works and if you die, it shows where you need work at. You want to treasure hunt? They are there to find if you take the time but you will find the same things over and over.

The tiles all load in and the pieces are placed on the board the same for everyone. Players choose how they want to do the tiles, not DE. They can only give so much in a finite gaming experience. And that is the charm of Warframe many miss since they want it all for themselves instead of playing the game. You don't set up Monopoly to try to rush to the end as quickly as you can even if you have played hundreds of times. You don't play Golf by smashing the ball every time you come to it. Yet, players charge through Warframe as fast as they can and with as much destroying as possible or with no interacting with the enemies and then say it is DE fault for them being bored.

We decide on what interaction we do. We gonna rush to Phorid for the thousand times to kill it before the rest of the players load in. We decide to drop Ancient Healers and sit in a corner for hours surviving til we can't. We find the modes we enjoy and play them til we don't.

DE gives us the playground but as the case with my kids, after they do the playground for a few times, they want to go to another one sooner or later. It's not the playground that is making them want to leave it, it's their own mindset and experience with it.

I tired....been up too long. This makes no sense

Cheers

[Ceroneous]

On 2019-09-28 at 8:31 PM, Uhkretor said:

Misunderstanding what I'm saying and then making up whatever comes to your mind about its meaning because you didn't understand what I said properly isn't helpful to the discussion...

You said you wanted a meaningful discussion, and since this is a forum and we all write our thoughts here, you should probably make an extra effort to understand what people are saying.... even if you have to read the stuff once at least, instead of skimming through it, and you have to actually think about what that person said from multiple perspectives... If you think that your perspective is the only one that actually matters here, then your thought concerning your perspective is as stupid as assuming outright that I'm replying with stuff about me or my preferences... Which I'm not, as I stated before.

I'm seeing this from a "player base sphere" perspective. I'm not including the "common ground" player base spheres because those can adapt to the situation pretty fluently.

If you've read my other replies then at no point in my responses am I disregarding what others players are saying, many people have pointed out extreme or irrational ideas on my original post. They have successfully turned some of my opinions around such as reforming a huge system and instead of that introducing new elements while adjusting the game in places where the are needed. Your replies are good to see since I originally only viewed the "players skipping content" issue as an environmental issue. Also please correct me or clarify if I'm wrong ,but you think it's a player community issue where some people just decide playing it another way isn't worth the investment due to the amount of freedom we have on maps/mission? 

 

On 2019-09-28 at 8:31 PM, Uhkretor said:

On another note, I personally think that you're probably wasting your time since [DE]'s most likely already ahead of you on the matter and you're letting others know about you wasting your time... Its your time to waste, obviously, and you thought out some positive things but~.... you're already late to the party with your suggestions, if you gave any (I think you gave some)... After all, they've been sitting on the Emissary content for a year and half now (or more), I wouldn't be surprised that they already implemented new proper challenges on the new content.

They might very well be already taking care of those things ,but I wanted to see what the community views were on my ideas and sometimes it's necessary to just put a perspective out there even if it doesn't have all the answers or the whole picture. Hopefully there are challenges on content that we all can enjoy, and keep in mind I failed on my part to provide the context of my situation where I have been gone for like half a year after burning out on nightwave/void relic content. Also I realized later that the game we got today wasn't build overnight so that older content isn't necessarily representative of what could be coming our way etc.

 

 

On 2019-09-28 at 8:31 PM, Uhkretor said:

Concerning the discussion and your personal hurry to shut me up by stating that I'm not having a meaningful discussion... As long as the discussion is meaningful to me, and "meaningful" is subjective AF!, you're going to have me here, one way or... another.

Also btw I am not here to shut you up Idk where you could've interpreted that, I originally thought you were chalking me up as some "complainer", but you've proven me wrong about that idea because you have a valid perspective. Ironically enough I do desire content that is challenging and rewarding that's the whole reason I made the post, I am against the whole zooming through the map gameplay ,but it's still environmentally the fastest method for repetitive content on older content (IMO including some open world content). Whether or not I'm right about any of my ideas, etc. is being pointed out by people like you or others with different perspectives/ideas because I'm not here to continually spout some half baked ideology. 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Ceroneous

[Ceroneous]

23 hours ago, Proslackernifty said:

First, I'll say no thanks to all your suggestions.  But especially no thanks to bosses taking 20-30 minutes.  How long would it take to farm some of the frames if bosses took 30 minutes?  I don't want to think about it.  

Then there's this part...

Everyone would stop playing. This would actually kill the game faster than you can run a lith fissure.  I can't even imagine what would have to be implemented to stop players from running through missions, but it would be stupid.

Not saying old content that is especially meant for fast in an out gameplay should just stop players from getting in and out ,but rather if new content or modes are introduced the could just make maps smaller with more complex rooms etc. I admit IDK what the hell I was on when I was saying 20-30mins, the only way stuff like that happens is if the content is so engaging/rewarding that people would be fine running it. Also Maybe rewards should be changed to so that there would be less tediousness in farming for stuff, I mean for Warframes we already gotta wait like 3 days +RNG for a lot of frames.

[Sarge_Tarmus]

On 2019-09-29 at 1:23 AM, Ceroneous said:

(basically make it so bosses take around 20-30mins to beat with abilities and situtations that players have to learn to overcome that boss)

Hell. The f**k. No. I can understand, when a really hard boss battle takes up to 7-8 minutes (In Dark Souls, which is a pretty slow-paced game) . But 30? That would be too long, and would make the boss boring. This isn't a tactival MMO, like World of Warfraft, it's a pretty fast-paced shooter, and some things shouldn't be taking too long. Unless we're talking about introducing some big raid bosses with multiple phases, but for a shooter, the raid itself should (IMO) last for 20-30 minutes and not be too long, to keep the players engaged and not quit in the middle of the mission.

 

On 2019-09-29 at 1:23 AM, Ceroneous said:

(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)

(Maps don't have to be so big either with this change)

(Include traps possibly, special buffs, room specific special weapons,etc.)

 

This sounds like another idea to force a pretty casual game to suddendly become a hardcore one. It's not that I'm against a good challenge, but this game shouldn't be taking this too far. Also, what's bad about running and quickly killing your enemies? This is a game with a lot of grinding, and after some time, most players realize, that the faster they do something, the better. It's like if you wanted to make this impossible/really annoying for them.

Basically, your ideas would require changing a lot of core game mechanics, and after that, the game would look too different for a lot of players, and a lot of players wouldn't be able to adapt. I know Warframe needs some good endgame, and I'd like to see the raids return and more of them get added. From what I've heard, raids were a really good way to make things challenging and requiring a lot of cooperation. Another thing is, that raids were a form of "heavily-optional" content and whoever didn't want to do them - just didn't have to. Like I said earlier, giving the base game mehcanics a massive overhaul would be way too much.