How many Litch's you need to kill to get all weapons - The Numbers

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, trst said:

What people quite literally say is in how they spend their time which is in playing when an update drops, getting the new rewards from said update, then to stop playing entirely until the next update drops. It's never mattered what the new content was be it new modes, new progression, complete revamps of old content, new mechanics, PvP, open worlds, or Trials as it all ended in the same pattern of most people quitting once they finished it.

Yeah, it's been suprising (well, not that surprising with this community 😉) how poorly received the Lich system was -- at least on the forums.

 

1 hour ago, trst said:

What you're asking for has been tried and has all failed. PvP and competitive PvE were tried between conclave, Dark Sectors, and competitive events; all of which were failures either from the lack of engagement or the sheer amount of drama surrounding them. Trials, and the boss fights with them, failed with their execution and player elitism leading to a bug-induced atrophy that wasn't worth the time to fix due to the lack of engagement from the beginning. For the same reasons racing modes will be dead on release and end up in the same state as Lunaro and Conclave has so little engagement it's already surprising the feature still exists and the chances of a full rework are slim to none.

And yet, somehow other games manage to have both and do just fine.

 

1 hour ago, trst said:

The irony of you describing Liches however is that it's almost exactly what players have both literally asked for and have proven a desire for with the "grind and leave" pattern. Liches bring lv100+ enemies into the Star chart, something people have been asking about for years now. People literally wanted this so that they can go back through old nodes and tilesets. Then the length and layers of the grind were literally asked for between requests for things to work towards and "content drought" complaints.

Yes, being unable to fight relatively high level enemies has been a staple complaint for a long time.

 

All in all, of course there's still a lot of room for improvement, but between Arbitrations, Liches, Sorties, endless endurance runs (now featuring Disruption and unlocking Relics in the Kuva Fortress) and SO/ESO (but let's not talk about that), there are now plenty of options that aren't meant for complete newbies, at least.

[PatternistSlave]

10 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

And yet, somehow other games manage to have both and do just fine.

Made by developers with a background in PvP content.  Just sayin.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

18 hours ago, trst said:

What people quite literally say is in how they spend their time which is in playing when an update drops, getting the new rewards from said update, then to stop playing entirely until the next update drops. It's never mattered what the new content was be it new modes, new progression, complete revamps of old content, new mechanics, PvP, open worlds, or Trials as it all ended in the same pattern of most people quitting once they finished it.

What you're asking for has been tried and has all failed. PvP and competitive PvE were tried between conclave, Dark Sectors, and competitive events; all of which were failures either from the lack of engagement or the sheer amount of drama surrounding them. Trials, and the boss fights with them, failed with their execution and player elitism leading to a bug-induced atrophy that wasn't worth the time to fix due to the lack of engagement from the beginning. For the same reasons racing modes will be dead on release and end up in the same state as Lunaro and Conclave has so little engagement it's already surprising the feature still exists and the chances of a full rework are slim to none.

The irony of you describing Liches however is that it's almost exactly what players have both literally asked for and have proven a desire for with the "grind and leave" pattern. Liches bring lv100+ enemies into the Star chart, something people have been asking about for years now. People literally wanted this so that they can go back through old nodes and tilesets. Then the length and layers of the grind were literally asked for between requests for things to work towards and "content drought" complaints.

Your argument that your statements are backed up by the "blast through content, go dormant" habits of several players doesn't hold water as it can be attributed to several other things, none of which are "we asked for RNG layered grind and didn't get it until the Lich system."  First off, people do that in several games, because the attention span of the general populace is getting shorter and shorter every year.  Those same people are doing it to the other games they play, rotating in and out depending on what game has released what.  I have a friend that plays games exactly like this. 

Secondly, it's more of a testament to the lack of quality of content releases, and the purposefully addictive nature of modern games that people feel the need to come back and grind through content they might not even enjoy just to not fall behind, only to leave when it's done.  There are PVP games that are over a decade old that still have an active playerbase simply because the gameplay is enjoyable.  People only showing up to blast through the latest release then leave, are either leaving due to the need to keep current elsewhere, or because the content released wasn't anything particularly enjoyable or new.  The fight against the Zealoid Prelate was new-ish, as it had a new enemy type and interesting mechanics.  The Ropalolyst plays out similarly to other Eidolon fights, but with better mechanics than the others have.  The Orb mothers were new, again, different mechanics than anything else in the game.  But those are single encounters in large releases.  When was the last truly new, game changing release?  It wasn't Liches.  Other than the Parazon, which is just an excuse to introduce grind and some (admittedly cool) animations, there's nothing new mechanically here.  Liches are just starchart missions over and over, farm and pop relics, kill a boss with a new finisher animation.  Nightwave is a fleshed out version of the old alert system, it doesn't do much new other than increase the amount of time you used to spend to get a potato from an alert, and in fact it takes a 5 minute cutscene and spreads it out over months.  There's no real impact there.  It wasn't Fortuna.  That was literally reskinned POE.  Other than the Eidolon fights, POE was literally just starchart mission objectives on an unchanging outdoor tileset, stretched out into multi-stage bounties.  Even the cinematic quests that we get to introduce new lore, new voice lines, new frames etc. mostly take place on the same tilesets we already have with the same mission objectives we already run.  4 of them off the top of my head have new or partially new settings and or have unique mission objectives or mechanics:  Octavia's Anthem, Chains of Harrow, The Silver Grove, and Sands of Inaros.  But the bulk of those quests are fleshed out in starchart missions with regular starchart mission objectives.  ESO is just survival with extra steps.  The last truly gamechanging update we got was with operators.  New lore, mechanics, options, etc.  All there.  Operators were the last truly substantial change to the game.  The bulk of everything else is literally repackaged starchart missions.  We've been asking for a NEW gameplay loop.  Something that feels actively different.  Railjack will hopefully answer that.

But that's not the "mid-content evergreen activity" that people have been asking for, Railjack is actual content.  In nearly any other game of this type that mid-content activity is long-running events (Iron Banner from destiny) and other competitive modes.  The PVP in this game not being popular has literally nothing to do with players asking for RNG grind, and everything to do with its quality.  I played a good bit of Destiny 1, and there were always matches available for crucible, races, raids etc.  People wanted to do them because they were fun, and they provided worthwhile rewards, rather than being boring buggy messes with no reward at the end.  As far as fun content we haven't gotten anything but repackaged starchart mission objectives and DE doesn't do worthwhile rewards.  They HATE the idea of good drop tables.  Why else would they have a 1,500 credits drop as the A rotation for pretty much every planet with an A rotation reward table? 

TL;DR: You're saying that what we asked for was content that couldn't be completed in a week and you're partially right.  But the people asking for that wanted worthwhile, fun content that was on-going; not the same-y RNG grind-fest that they delivered.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

17 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Made by developers with a background in PvP content.  Just sayin.

DE made Unreal Tournament.

[PatternistSlave]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

DE made Unreal Tournament.

Yeah I forgot they worked with Epic on those.  Interesting the parallels between Conclave and UT actually.  Both focus solely on a niche fanbase to their massive detriment.  Both are only kept alive because of the superior content they're attached to.

[Tsardova]

On 2019-11-25 at 6:33 AM, Pyrain said:

1. haven't seen a timegate yet

2. People have known Melee 3.0 was coming for literally years.  they knew channeling was going to be HEVALY changed.  People have had time to prep.  And it is better in a lot of ways.

3. On my third lich.  Still haven't felt any "egregiously excessive" grind.  Sounds to me like any grind is "egregiously excessive" in your view.

4  ok, this one doesn't even make any sense.

 

I honestly don't know how you can compare nigh wave and the liches the way you do here.  just not seeing it.

1. Kuva missions being the way it is effectively makes it difficult for me to get a consistently available way to get requiem mods disregarding the rng related to getting it. (ergo timegating) It may not be an issue to people who has time to spare but for other who aren't as fortunate be it due to responsibilities, etc, it is nonetheless an issue.

2. People knew and anticipated Melee 3.0 sure, but DE touted it as an IMPROVEMENT to what we had, and that CO and meme strike, etc may very well still be valid despite the change. Which as we see now is a lie. The new melee straight up regressed us to a slower "more intimate" combat when it is the exact antithesis of why this game's combat is different compared to its looter shooter competitor.

 

If by better you mean people spamming heavy melee builds then sure, but to see so many formas and time invested to make lower mr weapon workable and fun despite not being the meta to now every weapon in the same class having standardized reach, etc, quite frankly it made those investment moot as those who didn't invest in said weapons arguably got the better end of the deal as their weapons may very well be better without having invested as much time into it.

3. Your statement is AFTER the fact that people have slogged through and complained said issue for DE to make SOME changes to minimize it somewhat. Sounds to me your presumption failed to realize I farmed Hema and capped operator schools prior... i.e. I've experienced my share of excessive grind but not are made so unnecessarily padded out in multiple layers of rng. Take that as you will but it is what it is, many complained about the same thing in the first 3 weeks or so of the system's implementation because of how it is done but "albino knights" will always just spew ignorance is bliss type of argument to "win" 

 

4. Then you failed to read and understand basic reasoning.... The statement encapsulates the RNG aspects of the grind, Requiem mods, sequence finding, and how the dang kuva weapon reward has another rng related status bonus related to it.

 

Then sorry to say but you're just another apologist who refuse to read and understand how the two system gained the same notoriety of being so padded out and a slog to get through when they were implemented. It took widespread complaints for DE to make necessary changes to alleviate the grind somewhat to make the grind more "enjoyable". Both Nightwave and Lich system had (/have) an unnecessarily long process making the effort to reward ratio a widespread point of contention, and both have some form of timegating (kuva mission distribution to the weekly/ daily mission for NW). I.e. Effort to Reward ratio.

[-AncientWarrior-]

Damn this made me sick .. on my 25th Lich atm .. 5 tonkors, 3 orgis, 2 of most others and still no Brakk Lich..AND only 1 ephemera .. RNG on this sux badly..  DE, please give us a way to "Expel" active Lich if we already have one...

[Dax-Robocop]

Thanks OP, it took exactly 38 liches to get all weapons for me which is tbh still a very optimistic estimate. I have a feeling that certain elements have higher chance to drop certain weapons. I only have my data to back this up so still a hypothesis but it would help a great deal if all of you guys could share their numbers.

 

Kuva Kohm - 3 - ( 30% 🔨 Imp lich 1, 31% 🤢 Toxic lich 7, 28% 🔥 Heat lich 20, )

Kuva Ogris - 5 - ( 27% 🔨 Imp lich 2, 38% 🔨 Imp lich 3, 32% ☢️ Rad lich 12, 32% 🔥 Heat lich 24, 26% ☢️ Rad lich 32)

Kuva Kraken - 6 - ( 35% 🔥 Heat lich 4, 34% 🤢 Toxic lich 10, 25% 🔥 Heat lich 16, 30% 🔥 Heat lich 19, 27% 🔥 Heat lich 23, 31% 🔥 Heat lich 29)

Kuva Brakk - 3 - ( 27% ❄️ Cold lich 5, 39% ☢️ Rad lich 26, 33% 🔨 Imp lich 34)

Kuva Tonkor - 4 - ( 47% 🤢 Toxic lich 6, 53% 🔥 Heat lich 11, 52% 🔥 Heat lich 15, 25% ☢️ Rad lich 30)

Kuva Karak - 2 -( 47%⚡ Electric lich 8, 42% 🔥 Heat lich 33 + heat ephmera)

Kuva Chakhurr - 2 -( 31% ☢️Rad lich 9 + rad ephmera, 59% 🤢 Toxic lich 28,  )

Kuva Seer - 2-  ( 25% 🤢 Toxic lich 13, 40% ☢️ Rad lich 21)

Kuva Twin Stubbas - 1 - ( 51% 🔥 Heat lich 14, )

Kuva Shildeg - 2 - ( 25% 🔥 Heat lich 17,  31% 🔥 Heat lich 31)

Kuva Quartakk - 4 - ( 25% ⚡ Electric lich 18, 36% 🔥 Heat lich 22, 43% 🤢 Toxic lich 35 + toxic ephmera, 27% 🔨 Imp lich 37)

Kuva Ayanga - 3 - ( 27% ☢️ Rad lich 25, 38% ⚡ Electric lich 27, 33% ⚡ Electric lich 36)

Kuva Drakgoon - 1 - ( 39% ⚡ Electric lich 38)