Augment slot for warframes

[...L.u.n.a...]

Hi,

dear DE, could you please make an AUGMENT SLOT for warframes, similar to primary weapons exilus slot.

Thank you!

Edited December 29, 2019 by LunaMoon2

[Kingsmount]

That'll happen when we get Universal Vacuum. 

 

And frames that aren't locked behind overwhelming soul-crushing grind that makes you hate the game, a new quest frame.  (Titania/Mirage/Limbo style, not Harrow/Nidus style, as they don't count. The quest is only the blueprint while you have mind numbing grind unrelated to the quest after that)

Edited December 28, 2019 by Kingsmount

[Birdframe_Prime]

Please note: Weapons got an Exilus slot, not an Augment slot. None of the weapon specific augments made by the different factions like Steel Meridian, fit in the Weapon Exilus Slot, because they are not Exilus mods.

Warframes have that Exilus slot, where mods that are deemed utility enough to not interfere too much with regular builds (including the flagship mods from the Lua tile set that were made to give that change some hype) are allowed into the Exilus. There are currently only 4 Augments out of 127 released Augments for Warframes that fit in the Exilus for a very simple reason, stated by DERebecca and DEPablo: If it changes the actual Ability in any way, it's a regular mod, if all it changes is how movement works, it's an Exilus worth Augment. Which is why Mesa's Waltz goes in, but not Infiltrate. Both make you go faster during the ability, but one changes an aspect about the ability (passing through laser traps) while the other does only movement.

That is currently the definition. You're not going to change that as long as Augments are designed the way they are.

Broaden your campaign, change what Augments actually are (generically Augments are a buff to the specific ability, which is why they seem to be so 'essential' sometimes), make the goal of Augments to be something similar to Nova's 4th augment, that rewards you for playing the ability, but makes your other abilities work better; restoring a Null Star for enemies killed while affected by Molecular Prime. Allows you to keep up the Damage Reduction of that ability without having to wait to recast, or Augment it for the detonate and recast.

If all Augments, instead of being direct buffs, were ways to make playing that ability more rewarding for the rest of the abilities... then maybe we could get something to the effect of an Augment Slot.

Until then, you're stuck with this method.

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

9 hours ago, LunaMoon2 said:

Hi,

dear DE, could you please make an AUGMENT SLOT for warframes, similar to primary weapons augment slot.

Thank you!

What u call augments, most of them are missing player agency that should be dissolved into the base suite( thus no need for new slot).

After that has been satisfied then call it an augment!? 

[...L.u.n.a...]

Some warframes are just so difficult to mod even without vitality/shield mod, that having one slot for augment would make them finally viable (and fun) to play.

 

[Andele3025]

20 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Please note: Weapons got an Exilus slot, not an Augment slot. None of the weapon specific augments made by the different factions like Steel Meridian, fit in the Weapon Exilus Slot, because they are not Exilus mods.

Technically, some of the arena augment mods turned into exilus mods.

20 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Warframes have that Exilus slot, where mods that are deemed utility enough to not interfere too much with regular builds (including the flagship mods from the Lua tile set that were made to give that change some hype) are allowed into the Exilus. There are currently only 4 Augments out of 127 released Augments for Warframes that fit in the Exilus for a very simple reason, stated by DERebecca and DEPablo: If it changes the actual Ability in any way, it's a regular mod, if all it changes is how movement works, it's an Exilus worth Augment. Which is why Mesa's Waltz goes in, but not Infiltrate. Both make you go faster during the ability, but one changes an aspect about the ability (passing through laser traps) while the other does only movement.

Again, in reality a lot more stuff went into exilus slots based on situational power and release date. Not to mention that exilus was explicitly called "utility" (Exilus Mod Slots: Players will be able to unlock Exilus Slots for their Warframes, which provides an additional Utility Mod slot that players can use to further customize their loadouts.  Once unlocked players can use any Utility Mod in the Exilus Mod slot. Please note we have designated several mods as 'Utility' for this purpose.), not "mobility" slot. So officially, no the definition of Exilus slots in general is utility (which is why reload and mag size not being exilus is derpy as sheet dps doesnt increase direct kill speed on the vast majority of weapons, no more than flight speed does on falloff ones or reload during holster on high reload time does with quick melee swap).

20 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Broaden your campaign, change what Augments actually are (generically Augments are a buff to the specific ability, which is why they seem to be so 'essential' sometimes), make the goal of Augments to be something similar to Nova's 4th augment, that rewards you for playing the ability, but makes your other abilities work better; restoring a Null Star for enemies killed while affected by Molecular Prime. Allows you to keep up the Damage Reduction of that ability without having to wait to recast, or Augment it for the detonate and recast. If all Augments, instead of being direct buffs, were ways to make playing that ability more rewarding for the rest of the abilities... then maybe we could get something to the effect of an Augment Slot.

Ill actually argue, most augments do that, the bigger issue is a lot of base abilities that "need" the augment have a issue in the base ability.
The few that have a ability that works well baseline but encourages a change in game loop then being the outliers like Novas 4 or Nekros 3 or Excal 4 or Banshee 2 or Ash 4, etc instead of the remaining handful that actually are flat ability effect buffs/the non-interesting bandaids (equi 3, excal 2, frost 2&3, etc) being the exact proof why if the base ability is solid, the augment should indeed keep being a main slot instead of there existing a augment slot as its a choice of gameloop change instead of a fix to the ability/adding what should have been there.

[CopperBezel]

Nova's got a really good example for each, since Neutron Star, the augment for her 1, is exactly one of those bandaids, just making the ability recastable without going out of bounds or jumping into a nully shield to end it. = / (Which makes it lucky that Molecular Fusion is very good and incidentally patches the same hole.)

But yeah, the interesting augments that feel genuinely worth a slot are the ones that add an effect to an existing ability that, itself, already works perfectly well for its basic purpose. Saryn and Ember getting a heal added to an already defensive-oriented ability, etc. When you give up a mod slot, you're losing overall casting ability, health etc., ability stats, etc., so you want the augment to offer a fair trade in adding something to your kit. They just shouldn't be a fix for a faulty ability, because then you're just losing a mod slot as a penalty for bad design.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Ill actually argue, most augments do that, the bigger issue is a lot of base abilities that "need" the augment have a issue in the base ability.

And I'll quite happily go down the list and cite the actual function to say what is and isn't a direct upgrade versus what is a genuine change to support the rest of the frame's kit, or change the way you actually play the Warframe.

Please note: by 'play the Warframe' I do not mean 'focus on one ability over another'. I do not feel that simply prioritising one cast over another changes anything, it just makes one aspect more preferable.

Spoiler

Seeking Shuriken: Provides armour strip, direct buff.
Smoke Shadow: Provides AoE application of effect to allies, direct buff.
Fatal Teleport: Provides guaranteed Finisher and energy refund, direct buff.
Rising Storm: Provides boost to ability via increasing melee Combo timer, direct buff. 

Path of Statues: Provides effects of his 3 in an area he has travelled through with his 1, direct buff. Even more so because it reduces usage of his actual 3.
Tectonic Fracture: Changes ability to have multiple walls, but cannot launch them, functional change to how you play Atlas.
Ore Gaze: Provides bonus loot chance and codex scans, direct buff.
Titanic Rumbler: Changes ability to have single tankier Rumbler instead of two, while a trade-off to the ability function, not a change to how you play Atlas.

Sonic Fracture: Provides armour strip, direct buff.
Resonance: Provides free recasts of the ability from enemies killed by using the original cast, direct buff.
Savage Silence: Buffs Finisher damage while active, direct buff.
Resonating Quake: Changes ability to allow better mobility, trades damage numbers for longevity, change to how you play Banshee.

Afterburn: Provides additional damage based on how long you had the ability active, direct buff.
Everlasting Ward: Provides allies with lasting effect of buff, band-aid, direct buff.
Vexing Retaliation: Adds burst of damage and status when taking damage, direct buff.
Guided Effigy: Provides ability to reposition Effigy, guarantees extra damage and additional CC burst on demand, direct buff.

Fireball Frenzy: Provides team buff to weapon damage when held to cast, nothing else changes, direct buff.
Immolated Radiance: Provides radial buff to allies, direct buff.
Healing Flame: Provides healing based on enemies hit, direct buff.
Exothermic: Marks enemies for Energy Orb drops on death, direct buff.

Duality: Provides a free Spectre unit with buffed damage, direct buff.
Calm & Frenzy: Provides recasts of the ability for killing affected enemies, direct buff.
Peaceful Provocation: Provides bonus effects of slow/Strength to ability, direct buff.
Energy Transfer: Band-aid, removes down-side of pressing 1 with your 4 active.

Surging Dash: Boosts Melee counter for use, direct buff.
Radiant Finish: Provides bonus Finisher damage on use, direct buff.
Furious Javelin: Provides melee damage buff based on enemies hit, direct buff.
Chromatic Blade: Provides direct status chance and elemental damage to Exalted Blade, direct buff.

Freeze Force: Provides bonus weapon damage for hold cast, nothing else changes, direct buff.
Ice Wave Impedence: Provides Slow effect in addition to regular effects, direct buff.
Chilling Globe: Provides additional CC on top of base effects, direct buff.
Icy Avalanche: Provides overshields to all in range based on enemies hit, direct buff

Mending Splinters: Provides minimum 3 Health per second while ability is active, with additional healing for more allies affected, direct buff.
Spectrosiphon: Marks enemies for Energy Orb drop while in range, direct buff.

Dread Ward: Provides Invulnerability after cast, direct buff.

Warding Thurible: Provides damage reduction to allies in range and increases charge if allies are damaged, direct buff.
Lasting Covenant: Changes ability to give lasting effects of the crit buff in exchange for inability to recast the invulnerability function, change to the ability, arguably a change to how you play Harrow.

Corroding Barrage: Adds Status to base ability, direct buff.
Tidal Impunity: Provides Status immunity to all allies affected, direct buff.
Curative Undertow: Provides Health restore function on top of base effects, direct buff.
Pilfering Swarm: Provides additional Loot drops on top of base effects, direct buff.

Dessication's Curse: Provides chance to gain Sand Shadows based on using the ability normally, direct buff.
Elemental Sandstorm: Adds status based on your melee mod elemental types, direct buff.
Negation Swarm: Provides status immunity for slight drain of gained armour, direct buff.

Empowered Quiver: Provides bonus effects to Dashwire and Cloak arrow on top of base effects, direct buff.
Piercing Navigator: Provides bonus Crit chance based on enemies effected, direct buff.
Infiltrate: Provides bypass of traps, partial band-aid as it also increases movement speed, direct buff.
Concentrated Arrow: Totals all damage dealt by regular bow into single shot that creates a radial effect on headshot, direct buff.

Accumulating Whipclaw: Provides Damage buff based on usage, direct buff.
Venari Bodyguard: Provides situational death avoidance function based on whether companion is alive, direct buff.
Pilfering Strangledome: Provides bonus loot based on normal usage, direct buff.

Rift Haven: Provides healing based on normal usage, direct buff.
Rift Torrent: Provides Damage buff based on enemies affected.
Cataclysmic Continuum: Allows extended use of ability per cast based on enemies killed, direct buff.

Saviour Decoy: Provides situational death avoidance function based on normal use, direct buff.
Hushed Invisibility: Provides Weapon Silence on top of base functions, direct buff.
Safeguard Switch: Provides Invulnerability on top of base functions, direct buff.
Irradiating Disarm: Provides guaranteed Confuse status on top of base effects, direct buff.

Greedy Pull: Provides ranged pickup acquisition on top of regular effects without Vacuum, direct buff.
Magnetised Discharge: Provides bonus Disarm and Range to ability on top of regular effects, direct buff.
Counter Pulse: Provides enemy stun on top of base effects, direct buff.
Fracturing Crush: Provides Armour strip and CC on top of base effects, direct buff.

Ballistic Bullseye: Provides Status on top of normal effects based on normal use, direct buff.
Muzzle Flash: Provides bonus Blind effects based on enemies killed, direct buff.
Staggering Shield: Provides bonus CC stagger on top of base effects, direct buff.
Mesa's Waltz: Provides movement function on top of base effects, direct buff.

Hall of Malevolence: Provides bonus damage based on kills, direct buff.
Explosive Legerdemain: Changes base ability to create proximity mines instead of direct explosions from pickups, adds status chance, direct buff.
Total Eclipse: Provides allies with the effects of the ability, direct buff.

Soul Survivor: Provides additional function to cast on allies on top of base effects, direct buff.
Creeping Terrify: Provides guaranteed Slow on top of base effects, direct buff.
Despoil: Changes base ability to work off Health instead of Energy, able to self sustain on created Health orb drops gained, does not change how Nekros is played.
Shield of Shadows: Provides damage reduction to Nekros based on ability being active and in range, direct buff.

Pyroclastic Flow: Provides additional damage on top of base effects, direct buff.
Reaping Chakram: Provides additional damage and chance for Health on top of base effects, direct buff.
Safeguard: Allows ability to be cast on allies, direct buff.

Teeming Virulence: Provides situational Critical buff to weapons based on normal usage, direct buff.
Larva Burst: Provides damage function to ability based on enemies affected, direct buff.
Insatiable: Provides additional Stack gain based on being in range of ability, direct buff.

Neutron Star: Provides ability to decast and recast, band-aid, adds damage and status to decast, direct buff.
Antimatter Absorb: Provides function to absorb enemy damage in a radius, direct buff. Arguably changes how you play Nova as casting and keeping ability active is viable for damage evasion.
Escape Velocity: Provides bonus movement speed on top of base effects, direct buff.
Molecular Fission: Provides Null Star with regeneration of Stars based on regular usage of the ability without need of Neutron Star, allows for Nova to maintain damage reduction for longer, slight change to how you play Nova.

Mind Freak: Provides bonus damage to affected target, direct buff.
Pacifying Bolts: Provides bonus Confuse status to base effects, direct buff.
Chaos Sphere: Provides enduring effect able to re-apply ability to new enemies, direct buff.
Assimilate: Changes ability to allow movement and use of weapons while active, removes allied damage effects, change to how you play Nyx.

Smite Infusion: Provides bonus to weapon damage on hold cast, does not change base ability, direct buff.
Hallowed Eruption: Provides buff to base range and decast function to base ability, removes ability to cast multiple instances, does not change how you play Oberon.
Phoenix Renewal: Provides situational Death avoidance mechanic to all affected allies, direct buff.
Hallowed Reckoning: Provides persistent effect after cast that can buff allies and damage enemies, direct buff.

Partitioned Mallet: Trades area of effect for two casts, no changes to base effects, arguable direct buff, does not change how you play Octavia.
Conductor: Provides ability to place CC at required place, rather than let it roam at random, direct buff.

Blinding Reave: Provides additional CC effect on top of base ability functions, direct buff.

Ironclad Charge: Provides armour buff based on enemies hit, direct buff.
Iron Shrapnel: Provides decast for damage effect to base ability, direct buff.
Piercing Roar: Provides additional Status effect to base ability, direct buff.
Reinforcing Stomp: Restores Iron Skin based on use, no change to how you play Rhino, but good ability synergy.

Venom Dose: Provides damage to weapons based on hold cast, does not change base ability, direct buff.
Regenerative Molt: Provides health restore effect on top of base ability functions, direct buff.
Contagion Cloud: Provides persistent damage over time functions based on enemies killed, direct buff.

Beguiling Lantern: Provides bonus damage based on using melee on affected enemies, direct buff.
Razorwing Blitz: Provides Movement Speed and Fire Rate based on using abilities, direct buff, at least works with other abilities.

Pool of Life: Provides additional Health Orb drop based on use, direct buff.
Vampire Leech: Provides shields and overshields based on having full energy on use, direct buff.
Abating Link: Provides armour strip on top of base effects, direct buff.

Swing Line: Reduces energy cost based on use, direct buff.
Eternal War: Allows ability to be extended based on kills with melee, direct buff.
Prolonged Paralysis: Provides additional CC on top of base effects, direct buff.
Hysterical Assault: Provides additional mobility while using the ability, direct buff.

Tesla Bank: Provides radial damage bursts if enemy is killed while under effects of the ability, direct buff.
Photon Repeater: Provides free casts based on hitting enough enemies, direct buff.
Repelling Bastille: Provides area clear to Bastille and additional Duration to Vortex based on recasts, direct buff.

Shock Trooper: Provides weapon damage on hold cast, does not change base ability, direct buff.
Shocking Speed: Provides damage on contact on top of base effects, direct buff.
Transistor Shield: Allows Allies to pick up shields, increases passive based on use, direct buff.
Capacitance: Provides Shield regen based on normal use, direct buff.

Celestial Stomp: Provides on-demand reduced effect Rhino Stomp to base cast, direct buff.
Enveloping Cloud: Provides allies with limited duration Invisibility if they come into range, direct buff.
Primal Rage: Provides additional Critical chance based on kills, direct buff.

Target Fixation: Provides additional damage based on recasts dependent on not touching the ground too long, direct buff.
Jet Stream: Provides additional movement speed and Flight Speed (also fall-off distance) to weapons, direct buff.
Funnel Clouds: Changes base ability to remove most of the CC in favour of better damage and more sources of damage, doesn't change how you play Zephyr.

So, out of all of them, out of 127 released Augments...

Only about three or four of them could be said to actually create actual synergy between the abilities or change how you play the Warframe thanks to the difference or synergy that they create.

Yes, you can argue that some of the buffs to the abilities mean that you can use that ability more exclusively for that purpose, but that's more personal preference on the ability usage, it doesn't change what the ability is for, nor does it change what the frame does overall.

If you're using Finishers with Ash and his Fatal Teleport, you can still use his 1, 2 and 4, they don't change at all for this.

All of these band-aid and direct buff augments do not change anything about the other abilities, they just make using that one ability more viable than it was before.

And, to be clear, that really isn't how Augments should work at all in my opinion.

Augments should at least trade off the ability, the way that Funnel Clouds or Despoil does, where the base functions of the ability are technically the same, but it completely changes what you're achieving from it.

Somebody looking to run a 'damage based' Zephyr can technically do that with Funnel Clouds or Target Fixation, while anyone else would choose to run her for the damage evasion and mobility and ignore Strength (unless they're super into Jet Stream... like me... and have a second Zephyr Prime for the Umbral Jet Stream build...).

Augments that actually change how you play the frame, rather than simply change which ability you focus on, are incredibly rare. And Augments that change how the abilities interact to make them stronger for a particular play style are almost as rare.

We really need to get the base abilities on frames reworked so that all of them are desirable and functional without the Augments, and then get Augments revamped so that they're then actual changes to the abilities, not just buffs every time.

At that point, if augments really were beneficial to the Warframe, not the individual Ability, I would really get behind an addition like an Augment slot.

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And I'll quite happily go down the list and cite the actual function to say what is and isn't a direct upgrade versus

Except, and let me prune the list to actual buffs instead of things that dont alter the frames game loop options or are pure/self effectiveness of the ability bandaids (most defensive augments fall in this second category even if a rare few are actually worth the mod slot on their own):

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Path of Statues: Provides effects of his 3 in an area he has travelled through with his 1, direct buff. Even more so because it reduces usage of his actual 3

Actually a dead/noob trap mod slot because it has petrify timer and doesnt extend infront of him, 3 being extremely better than it.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Titanic Rumbler: Changes ability to have single tankier Rumbler instead of two, while a trade-off to the ability function, not a change to how you play Atlas.

Technically dead/noob trap because base rumblers everything it does but better (petrify on repeat cast being much better than knockdown, ehp of rumblers is barely chewed on by even high level enemies with almost every build (while on low strength no def setups and vs nullies rumblers die either way) AND less rubble from them.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Savage Silence: Buffs Finisher damage while active, direct buff.

Everlasting Ward: Provides allies with lasting effect of buff, band-aid, direct buff.

Ward one is true only because chromas base design.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Peaceful Provocation: Provides bonus effects of slow/Strength to ability, direct buff.

Radiant Finish: Provides bonus Finisher damage on use, direct buff

Furious Javelin: Provides melee damage buff based on enemies hit, direct buff.

Ice Wave Impedence: Provides Slow effect in addition to regular effects, direct buff.

Ice Wave used to be one, but now doesnt do anything as slows no longer give condi duration

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Lasting Covenant: Changes ability to give lasting effects of the crit buff in exchange for inability to recast the invulnerability function, change to the ability, arguably a change to how you play Harrow.

Convenant can be argued either way, but its good that its optional.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Pilfering Swarm: Provides additional Loot drops on top of base effects, direct buff.

Empowered Quiver: Provides bonus effects to Dashwire and Cloak arrow on top of base effects, direct buff.

Piercing Navigator: Provides bonus Crit chance based on enemies effected, direct buff.

Accumulating Whipclaw: Provides Damage buff based on usage, direct buff.

Pilfering Strangledome: Provides bonus loot based on normal usage, direct buff.

Rift Torrent: Provides Damage buff based on enemies affected.

Magnetised Discharge: Provides bonus Disarm and Range to ability on top of regular effects, direct buff.

Magnetized only true because of the passive stat bonus which is there because the mod is a bandaid fix to the fact that mag should be able to pop her bubbles either way to not hinder allies.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Staggering Shield: Provides bonus CC stagger on top of base effects, direct buff.

Hall of Malevolence: Provides bonus damage based on kills, direct buff.

Creeping Terrify: Provides guaranteed Slow on top of base effects, direct buff.

Creeping used to be one because the slow only helps the ability not annoy allies anymore, since as with Ice Wave its condi duration part was unknowingly nerfed by DE.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Reaping Chakram: Provides additional damage and chance for Health on top of base effects, direct buff.

Only technically because base kit power invalidates/nulls most of the power of build options with HC/EC would/do give.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Teeming Virulence: Provides situational Critical buff to weapons based on normal usage, direct buff.

Insatiable: Provides additional Stack gain based on being in range of ability, direct buff.

Mind Freak: Provides bonus damage to affected target, direct buff.

Contagion Cloud: Provides persistent damage over time functions based on enemies killed, direct buff.

Beguiling Lantern: Provides bonus damage based on using melee on affected enemies, direct buff.

Eternal War: Allows ability to be extended based on kills with melee, direct buff.

Ill pass eternal war in here not because it objectively belongs, but more subjectivel hold the point that its a nerf to the game loop in exchange for bandaiding the execution, entirely invalidating the point of EW having a slow on it and its snapshot on cast nature due to it not being a pseudo aura (but as said both got more to do with bad execution of a design, just as with chroma, only unli

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Primal Rage: Provides additional Critical chance based on kills, direct buff.

Jet Stream: Provides additional movement speed and Flight Speed (also fall-off distance) to weapons, direct buff.

Funnel Clouds: Changes base ability to remove most of the CC in favour of better damage and more sources of damage, doesn't change how you play Zephyr.

Funnel in there only due to being a dead/noob trap mod slot (at least till nado targetting gets improved to clump em up properly), removing the reliability for maybe better low to mid level defense mission speed.

So 24~29 depending on if you count redundant slows and iffy base abilities that work for oneself but questionable team effectiveness despite by effect supposedly intended to also help the team baseline. Possibly 35 if you count all and add the "lets ability do a thing as aoe extra mod buff", but in that case you are still saccing your own mod slot for team effectiveness, but that much like my stance on warcry is actually mostly a subjective thing on if it counts/in the grey zone.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Augments should at least trade off the ability, the way that Funnel Clouds or Despoil does, where the base functions of the ability are technically the same, but it completely changes what you're achieving from it.

Pointing towards funnel, while in theory it could be despoil equivalent in terms of build altering, execution kills the idea (unlike the prior noted nova 4 or ember 4 or ash 4 augments).
Or Inaros negating swarm, which for its power better be a augment, but also actually changes a bit how the armor % itself is treated due to downtime of regenning it/more often draining ones hp. Or chromatic blade which (especially post CO nerf, tho even before it since EB itself had a forced impact proc and with a status setup averaged the same as a CB setup across 15 attacks because of the reduced amount of possible procs CB has/had against enemies that survived the first 2 attacks with 0 and 1 proc modifiers) in the end per mod slot effectiveness wasnt much better than extra 20% power strength, but instead let one go for a 1-2 pure elemental setup which has its own benefits (especially with quick gun/melee swap).

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Augments that actually change how you play the frame, rather than simply change which ability you focus on, are incredibly rare. And Augments that change how the abilities interact to make them stronger for a particular play style are almost as rare.

More so because of bandaids and iffy execution and less so because of flat buffs. Tho seeing your list one could make the argument that bandaids and badly implemented effects are flat buffs even if i disagree with the point. And even some examples within your own list such as the heals and purge effects which 100% are added interactions to the game loop.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

At that point, if augments really were beneficial to the Warframe, not the individual Ability, I would really get behind an addition like an Augment slot.

And that point is exactly why im against a aug slot. It would power creep (even if in a very positive way) instead of address the issue of iffy design or execution (which would have the same net benefit without extra power/freeing up a slot for extra 20% power strength or 30% efficiency or whatever else).

[Dash_Lambda]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Augments that actually change how you play the frame, rather than simply change which ability you focus on, are incredibly rare. And Augments that change how the abilities interact to make them stronger for a particular play style are almost as rare.

We really need to get the base abilities on frames reworked so that all of them are desirable and functional without the Augments, and then get Augments revamped so that they're then actual changes to the abilities, not just buffs every time.

At that point, if augments really were beneficial to the Warframe, not the individual Ability, I would really get behind an addition like an Augment slot.

I wonder how well it would work to have augments that change multiple abilities.

So, for instance, Valkyr could have:

• Hysterical Assault: Continuous Hysteria focus
  • Ripline: When you pull an enemy, you draw them in front of you and slap them to the ground with your claws
  • Warcry: Remove armor buff and enemy slow, add a melee range buff and casting causes certain enemies to drop their weapons and run away in fear
  • Paralysis: Remove shield drain, casting costs health instead
  • Hysteria: Change healing to a flat rate per hit, reset the energy drain rate on finisher kills
• Eternal War: Continuous Warcry focus
  • Ripline: Pulling an enemy also pulls any enemies within a certain radius of them
  • Warcry: Melee kills restore time, ability can be recast while in use
  • Paralysis: Remove shield drain while Warcry is active, enemies are drawn toward you, casting costs Warcry time instead
  • Hysteria: Faster drain scaling, higher healing rate
• Swingline: Mobility focus
  • Ripline: Recasting within a certain time frame is free, can be canceled with a roll or slam attack, pulls you all the way to the target unless recast or canceled
  • Warcry: Remove armor buff, increase sprint speed, add evasion bonus
  • Paralysis: One-handed casting, pushes enemies away
  • Hysteria: No change

So, frames could have an augment slot for a mod that totally changes or refocuses how the frame is played, with the tradeoff that you can only have one augment at a time and you can't mix-and-match effects.

So, we could tune our frames with:

• Auras: Simple, general frame/environment-wide buffs that can also buff the team, increases mod capacity
• Augments: Playstyle-focused ability changes, perhaps without mod capacity drain?
• Arcanes: Miscellaneous event-triggered buffs, without mod capacity drain
• Exilus mods: Utility features that don't directly effects damage, durability, or playstyle
• Normal mods: Stat changes and miscellaneous effects

It would require a complete overhaul of the augments, but it would make the game a lot more fun and it would feel much more thought out and consistent than what we currently have.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Thanks for taking the time on that, I do admit I'm going to disagree with you overall in one specific way:

18 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except, and let me prune the list to actual buffs instead of things that dont alter the frames game loop options or are pure/self effectiveness of the ability bandaids (most defensive augments fall in this second category even if a rare few are actually worth the mod slot on their own): 

Unfortunately, while you do raise some points towards things that were good buffs based on mechanics, such as extending Status from slows, none of your points stop any of the ones you've mentioned from still being buffs to the base abilities.

The base abilities being bad does not discount this either.

But that does bring me on to this point:

18 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

It would power creep (even if in a very positive way) instead of address the issue of iffy design or execution

This is the pre-requisite to the entire thing. Until base abilities have all been reworked to function with the current game and in a valid way for the Warframe, this entire sequence of events can't begin.

I'm against an augment slot until, and purely until, all frames are fully functional and all augments are not power creep for the sake of it. Changing up how the ability functions is not power creep, in and of itself, and that's why I would change what augments are in order to ensure that they aren't.

The ability to change how you play a frame based on changing how abilities work together should be the purpose of Augments. And even if this was the case, until the abilities weren't in need of augments to band-aid them, that still wouldn't validate having an augment slot.

Take the examples given by @Dash_Lambda in the comment above, augmenting one ability focuses the others around it. While some of the functions are direct buffs to the overall frame, it doesn't have to be the case and many of the changes suggested are stylistic. That kind of change doesn't make any of the abilities more or less powerful, in essence, but does give a high amount of variety in terms of convenience and function for the frame. In my opinion, it's a great place to start a conversation on that.

You're entirely right that a dedicated slot is base power creep under all but the most ideal circumstances.

I deliberately avoided saying that, because the standard answer to that (for right or wrong) is 'this is PvE, who cares about power creep' and it devolves into arguments.

Final note; Look at my name. I definitively support Funnel Clouds, as well as the other augments for Zephyr ^^

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Thanks for taking the time on that, I do admit I'm going to disagree with you overall in one specific way:

Unfortunately, while you do raise some points towards things that were good buffs based on mechanics, such as extending Status from slows, none of your points stop any of the ones you've mentioned from still being buffs to the base abilities.

If a addition (like armor shred on ash 1 who with the rest of his kit ignores armor or healing on limbo 1 who is encouraged mostly not to juggle people around the planes/only himself or even extra use for cc on a channel skill that ends/repositions/does something to it like the ram augment for chroma 4) doesnt actually increase the effectiveness of the ability at what its role within a kit is, those dont count as buffs to me but actual intended point of augments, new usage case or altered game loop at the cost of power.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is the pre-requisite to the entire thing. Until base abilities have all been reworked to function with the current game and in a valid way for the Warframe, this entire sequence of events can't begin. You're entirely right that a dedicated slot is base power creep under all but the most ideal circumstances.

Ignoring hypotheticals (and that Dashs suggestions are more what base modding itself should/already does do a decent degree with well designed abilities), its why i said bandaid and nerf-slot augments need to be patched up first.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Final note; Look at my name. I definitively support Funnel Clouds, as well as the other augments for Zephyr ^^

Lemme ask off topic then, other than a quickshot/50% range+explosive weapons setup which kinda fiddly to play (and sacs your 2s cc a decent bit and makes turbu sometimes reroute explosives too late in hallways and near walls), how do you get any use out of Funnel Clouds? The smaller visuals and faster speed sure are nice, but the small nados still have the issue with aim tracking/were 2-3 nados bug about with the game trying to decide which one should be pulled to the place and due to the 1/3rd of the radius the damage spread can barely be used outside of simulacrum and some smaller defense (and interceptions with choke points) it seems like their best/only use case is fire and forget 10-60 damage tick packs?
Personally it seemed reverse/that base nados should be 5-8 of em and then the augment turns it into a single much wider longer duration (and more see-through) with a active pull to it for better control/damage spread (or reverse, 1 nado base then keeping the augment as extra of them).

[Birdframe_Prime]

23 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

If a addition ~~~ doesnt actually increase the effectiveness of the ability at what its role within a kit is, those dont count as buffs to me but actual intended point of augments

I think you've hit on precisely my argument here; if an Augment only purely adds to the ability and not to the entire kit, then to me that is the opposite of what Augments are for. Direct buffs to one ability make the augment 'essential' in many players' eyes and invalidates the idea of actually playing the frame differently. This is the exact reason we get these threads about dedicated slots; because the player in question views the buffs or band-aids to be specifically essential to the way they play that frame.

Like I said, it doesn't matter whether the ability is good or not, or if the augment is a band-aid or not, as long as the augments are so polarised as only being buffs to their specific ability, then we have a problem with them.

The abilities do need to be fixed, then the augments, and then whether or not those fixes require a slot or not. In that order, not jumping ahead like the OP is ^^

My entire earliest comment on the thread, however, is based around that hypothetical of 'in an ideal scenario, I wouldn't actually be opposed to a dedicated slot, but that's neither wise nor even sensible right now'.

23 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

how do you get any use out of Funnel Clouds?

Actually by going into slightly negative range and knowing where to cast. Specifically for Survivals when you have a clear corner, cast into said corner to create the smallest possible spawn space. Then, rather than trying to steer the funnels, steer the enemy by using Zephyr's mobility to simply turn enemies around when you need to. Plus there's enough funnels that you barely need to worry about one or two that wander off, they aren't hindering you.

Their best use, by far, is not the damage. Their best use is the status, I enjoy running them with a melee build or similar as a solid means of Debuff and of procing things like Radiation for my own personal Chaos. I can take any kind of secondary or primary weapon I like that will actually do that, ignore it's ammo or stats, just make sure it's the thing I hit the funnels with, then have my army of status-procs show me where the enemies are.

Plus there's a fun little aside that they still block damage against them, so if you're in need of a refresh on Turbulence, or have a flame-thrower enemy, finding a clump of them to duck behind is as effective as any scenery.

With that said, I am still on a campaign to make Tornado functional at base. And believe me, I've seen the theory of making a giant single 'nado out of the ability and that would genuinely just be overpowered without serious nerfs. A wide area that blocks damage, can be given status, lifts and clears enemies from an area... say goodbye to Frost, Vauban and Limbo and hello to the new Tornado Defense meta... There would literally be nothing that could stop a mega-Tornado Zephyr, not even 'unsustainable' drain, as we've seen in the Banshee meta.

My best results from discussions is this; fix a range from point of cast that funnels can travel, unaffected by Range to prevent negative range builds. Spawn all funnels at the point of cast, in a formation, and have them move out to patrol that limited area. Give natural synergy (not forced) by making enemies hit by Zephyr's other abilities be priority targets or navigation points for the funnels (with a change to Air Blast, for example, that lifts enemies and holds them instead of ragdolls them, the nearest funnel could move to the point of impact and sweep up those enemies in the process). To compensate for the new limits, speed up the funnels a tad so it becomes a more effective CC. Improve the AI a little so that while the funnels actively seek the nearest enemies, but also avoid overlapping, meaning that if a funnel is already chasing down a target, the others patrol in the rest of the radius.

Apply this to Funnel Clouds, but group the funnels in threes for the effects, so while they don't lift, three of them will navigate to ability targets and so on. Consistent damage, status and staggers all over.

Other changes to Zephyr are read on literally all of my Zephyr threads, but I won't bore you with those unless you want them.