1000 Dirac = 1 Intrinsics point

[WindigoTG]

4 hours ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

You'll be artificially increasing your Railjack capabilities without any experience using them. You'll be completely negating any need to spend time in Proxima space. You'll be 10/10/10/10 with no practical experience with that kind of experience you'll be expected to behave and conduct yourself as a very experienced player but if you bought that then you are as useless as someone who's never even heard of the word railjack.

And what is it you are "winning" if you don't know how to play?

[Joe_Barbarian]

21 minutes ago, WindigoTG said:

And what is it you are "winning" if you don't know how to play?

Alright I'm just going to assume you have some kind of decent argument so I'll bite.

Warframe is about the grind, get all the levels, collect all the parts, build this, build that, farm for some more of this. It's a Grind simulator.

Now lets start at the top: What is an intrinsic?
An Intrinsic is a collection of points that go towards levels in a particular school to which there is currently 4 of them. These levels give you gameplay benefits, that improve or enhance your ability to do something faster and/or better.

How could this be considered Pay to Win?
Being able to purchase these intrinsic points will have a direct affect on your gameplay or being able to "Complete" a section of the grind simulator without having to take part.

But Boosters are then considered Pay to Win?
No, boosters allow you to complete SOME not all grinding tasks faster. A booster will not increase the speed of how a mission is done, it does not directly improve any abilities or functions within the mission.

That must mean buying weapons and warframes from the market is pay to win!
Again no, a player that does not buy/use/trade platinum can obtain any of the weapons released by grinding in this grinding simulator and build the blueprint anywhere between 12 hours and 84 hours (a week in Equinox case) But just like everyone else you have to use said weapon/warframe to level it up. At no point can you purchase levels.

Conclusion:
Purchasing levels = Completing the grind simulator without having the actually do any grinding = Pay2Win (even if that means you have no idea how the hell to use it)

Edit Side note:
I've already mentioned in Page 1 that Rush Repair Drones can be considered as "Pay2Win grey area" Because they are, you still need to get the parts to "rush" them, I don't believe that should exist and I do believe that any attempts to bring similar mechanics into the game should be shot down immediately. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Joe_Barbarian

[SordidDreams]

4 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

*snip*

"It's not pay-to-win if you still have to put in 1% of effort, even if you paid to skip the other 99%. Five minutes on Adaro is what separates WF from being pay-to-win."

[Joe_Barbarian]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

"It's not pay-to-win if you still have to put in 1% of effort, even if you paid to skip the other 99%. Five minutes on Adaro is what separates WF from being pay-to-win."

I'm unsure what you are being sarcastic about. Citation needed.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Joe_Barbarian said:

I'm unsure what you are being sarcastic about. Citation needed.

It's not sarcasm, it's an abbreviation of your argument. You said that "just like everyone else you have to use said weapon/warframe to level it up. At no point can you purchase levels". And that's true, but leveling up the item is trivial compared to obtaining it. For a frame that's literally just one run of Adaro, about five minutes. Compared to hours and hours of farming relics, traces, and parts? Yeah, you really are paying to skip 99% of the effort required by just buying the frame, it's not even an exaggeration.

[Joe_Barbarian]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

It's not sarcasm, it's an abbreviation of your argument. You said that "just like everyone else you have to use said weapon/warframe to level it up. At no point can you purchase levels". And that's true, but leveling up the item is trivial compared to obtaining it. For a frame that's literally just one run of Adaro, about five minutes. Compared to hours and hours of farming relics, traces, and parts? Yeah, you really are paying to skip 99% of the effort required by just buying the frame, it's not even an exaggeration.

Well it's an abbreviation that I disagree with.

Simply levelling up a weapon or warframe does not mean you understand it or even know it's full function and it's rare that to get said weapon or warframe optimised you'll require a Reactor/Catalyst as well as forma as well as practical experience. Simply just reading whats on the tin doesn't mean you know how to use it.

You are comparing time investment to buying levels. Even if the time invested is reduced by spending platinum then that is one thing. But outright buying levels? That is fundamentally different, no matter how you want to abbreviate it. Potato is a Potato a Tomato is a Tomato.

[SordidDreams]

7 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

Well it's an abbreviation that I disagree with.

Simply levelling up a weapon or warframe does not mean you understand it or even know it's full function and it's rare that to get said weapon or warframe optimised you'll require a Reactor/Catalyst as well as forma as well as practical experience. Simply just reading whats on the tin doesn't mean you know how to use it.

You are comparing time investment to buying levels. Even if the time invested is reduced by spending platinum then that is one thing. But outright buying levels? That is fundamentally different, no matter how you want to abbreviate it. Potato is a Potato a Tomato is a Tomato.

That's true, but according to what you said, completing the grind is what counts as winning in this grind simulator. You didn't say anything about learning.

I'm saying that earning levels is so trivial that buying them wouldn't make any difference. The vast majority of effort the game requires lies in obtaining the items in the first place, and that is totally skippable by paying money. I don't think you need to skip 100% to qualify as pay-to-win, I think 99% is enough. To put it another way, imagine we're about to have a 1km race. I pay the referee so that I start 99% of the way to the finish, so I only have to run 10 meters while you still have to run a full kilometer. Did I pay to win or not?

Edited December 31, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Joe_Barbarian]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

That's true, but according to what you said, completing the grind is what counts as winning in this grind simulator. You didn't say anything about learning.

I'm saying that earning levels is so trivial that buying them wouldn't make any difference. The vast majority of effort the game requires lies in obtaining the items in the first place, and that is totally skippable by paying money. I don't think you need to skip 100% to qualify as pay-to-win, I think 99% is enough.

That's where our opinions differ then.

Normal warframes can be bought with plat, but when you take into account Primed variants / Wraith / Vandal / Dex / Kuva / Mara / Prisma Variants of all the things, they can be obtained through platinum but that is through the player driven market. With the exception to the Prime Access and Prime Vault. But again, you can't just throw down $10000 and get everything, some items are locked behind limited time events and cant be traded (Dex Weapons as an example)

Side note: $10000 was an example because remember when DE brought in that Kavat Gambling system and found some people spent 10's of thousands of plat for RnG but removed it because they believed it was unethical.

Back to topic, the current system you believe to be pay2win I believe like many others it's a pay2progress faster, because we don't have thousands to spend on the game. Some people do, I even know a couple people who always buys the prime access, they don't farm for new warframes they buy the fancy bundle to get all the bells and whistles but at the same time I know people who just love to grind for stuff like that and they are sitting on 20,000 + plat never buying a booster, never buying frames they just have the plat because they can.

So that's why I believe a system like spending Dirac for levels is a step too far and they need to remove Rush repair drones are unethical and remove what the game is at it's core.

[SordidDreams]

6 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

the current system you believe to be pay2win I believe like many others it's a pay2progress faster

But you said reaching the end of progression is winning. So how is progressing faster not paying to win? To put it another way, imagine we're about to have a 1km race. I pay the referee so that I start 99% of the way to the finish, so I only have to run 10 meters while you still have to run a full kilometer. Did I pay to win or not?

  

5 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

they need to remove Rush repair drones are unethical

I agree completely, only I think rush repair drones are far from the only thing that should be removed for that reason.

Edited December 31, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Joe_Barbarian]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

But you said reaching the end of progression is winning. So how is progressing faster not paying to win? To put it another way, imagine we're about to have a 1km race. I pay the referee so that I start 99% of the way to the finish, so I only have to run 10 meters while you still have to run a full kilometer. Did I pay to win or not?

Progression is winning but it's not a public race, there is no measuring of the e-peen if there is then i'm ignorant of it.

To use your example, it's more like a marathon where you have the competitive people and the casual people, everyone there has their own personal goal. If you want to bribe the referee to put you 10 meters from the end and you decide to do the worm over it then great, you've achieved your personal goal, congratulations you've finished, now onto the next game.

Now lets you're an average person, you just want to get to the end, screw the time your goal is to get to the end and finish. Great! take your time.

There are so many different types of people/players, let people finish the game how they want to but don't give people the ability to just pay for a taxi to take them from start to finish.

[SordidDreams]

9 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

it's not a public race

Yeah it is. Everyone's profile is publicly accessible, and the game shows you your teammates' MR and weapon ranks.

10 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

To use your example, it's more like a marathon where you have the competitive people and the casual people, everyone there has their own personal goal. If you want to bribe the referee to put you 10 meters from the end and you decide to do the worm over it then great, you've achieved your personal goal, congratulations you've finished, now onto the next game.

So if that's a-okay, why can't I just pay the ref to put me directly on the finish so I don't have to move at all? I've achieved my personal goal, congratulations, now onto the next game. Right?

[Joe_Barbarian]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

Yeah it is. Everyone's profile is publicly accessible, and the game shows you your teammates' MR and weapon ranks.

So if that's a-okay, why can't I just pay the ref to put me directly on the finish so I don't have to move at all? I've achieved my personal goal, congratulations, now onto the next game. Right?

Well not at any point have I felt like I was competing with others.

Well if you really want to have that kind of ability in the game then fair enough you are entitled to have your opinion just like how I'm entitled to mine, that's how we produce feedback. I don't believe we're going to get much further than this as we've both clearly explained out points of view and reasoning for & against having a method to buy Intrinsic. So unless you have anything else to add I think we're done for this thread at least.

[SordidDreams]

6 minutes ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

Well not at any point have I felt like I was competing with others.

Well if you really want to have that kind of ability in the game then fair enough you are entitled to have your opinion just like how I'm entitled to mine, that's how we produce feedback. I don't believe we're going to get much further than this as we've both clearly explained out points of view and reasoning for & against having a method to buy Intrinsic. So unless you have anything else to add I think we're done for this thread at least.

I don't think you've explained yourself quite clearly enough. Why do you think it's a-okay to let people pay to get 99% of the way to the finish but it would be unethical to let them pay to get to 100%? Why is that 1% so important?

Edited December 31, 2019 by SordidDreams

[xBloodySin]

1 hour ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

...

I've grinded Intrinsics a lot. All I've "got" out of it is some muscle memory for chain-rolling with Ivara that I won't use anywhere else in the game in the same way more than likely.

I'm more than ready to just burn some Platinum to have this suffering done, because I want the checkboxes marked, not the repetitive experience that amounts to nothing beyond a waste of time for the sake of my completionism.

[SordidDreams]

12 minutes ago, xBloodySin said:

chain-rolling with Ivara

On a note completely unrelated to the topic of this thread, Ivara really needs to be able to move normally in Prowl. She was slow even when she was released, and the game has become much faster since then.

[prodi1600]

On 2019-12-30 at 2:44 PM, ReaverKane said:

Hopefully there'll be more railjack content soon, i mean what we've got is pretty much the MVP for it.

If they do this well, the new war tie-in can be a good way to keep us fighting in railjack for a long time.

do you know the primed soon???????

tbh we can expect new war at the end of January start of February if we have luck as I see it they want it to be a event that takes place around a good part if not most of 2020.

As how things are I even feel thjat we might need 5 more lvlv for each intrinsic focused in the RJ as a ship.