War Sword Still Needs A Buff.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

Before people get the wrong idea, I actually love the update that improved the melee weapons. Been a long time coming. I can actually kill enemies with my melee WITHOUT having to use Rhino, Chroma, or Excalibur. So awesome job DE. 👍🏻 

But the War is till kind of... ehhh. A weapon as hard to get as the war definitely deserves more than what it has. For starters its Riven Disposition is way too low for a weapon far weaker than several. And those several are much easier to get. 

I’m not suggesting DE raises the Riven disposition or the base stats up some, even though that would be lovely. What I AM suggesting is that DE adds a bonus/ability to the sentient weapon. I’ve made a post like this before and now I’m just reminding DE since the improved melee system came and its a new year. 

As a sentient weapon that was a part of and housed the Mega Sentient Hunhow, that it should be a weapon that can adapt to enemies weaknesses. That it can inflict damage upon enemies based on their weaknesses. Such as puncture and corrosive against majority grineer. Impact and magnetic against majority corpus. Etc. etc.

If health is all that is left due to armor/shield stripping, then the weapon does viral and slash. Basically any mods placed on the weapon contributes to its overall damage dealt. Basically the War channels all those elements and physical mods into a single element/physical of the enemies weakness. 

Sentients adapt to attacks so I figured a sentient weapon made from the most powerful sentient should be able to adapt its attacks against other enemies. A weapon capable of slaying anything, including a warframe definitely deserves more credit than what it already has.

When I first started playing, the War was the big hype. Anybody who has it basically were respected as somebody who conquered their fear of the Stalker and succeeded in not only killing him, but obtaining the most power Melee weapon in the game at that time. But then I quickly realized that the Melees aren’t at all what I thought them to be. Higher level enemies where basically resistant if not immune to these melees. Until the update last year and now melees are becoming popular again and more fun to use. Now we just need some sort of Advanced Enemy like some armored bulky grineer that only melees do the real damage too, so that guns aren’t the primary weapons to use against such tough enemies all the time. 

The War is basically a unused weapon and with such a low Riven disposition, it is surprising that it isn’t completely forgotten. I’m just asking that DE make this weapon popular again. Make it unique. Cause I just know that it will be used way more often if the buff I suggested is implemented. It wouldn’t replace all melee weapons obviously but it would be used more. And make facing the shadow stalker a hundred times, more worth it. 

Also I think it should mention that the broken war is needed to craft it after being obtained form the stalker after the second dream quest. Cause so many players would level the weapon up and and delete it for more space for a better weapon. If anything every weapon that is used as a resource for another should have that info shown after obtained or simply in the description. 

But anyways, that’s just my opinion. Well mine and several others. I talk to others about these things before making a post and they all agreed the War still needs a buff. Please be honest and constructive.

[taiiat]

i have in the past supported having War convert its Physical Damage based on the Enemy it is hitting. just the Physical Damage though, not what you Mod afterwards.
it would be neat, and offer some interesting Status Effect diversity to your Damage as well as the Damage itself.

just not all of your Damage including Elemental Mods, as that would barely be an upgrade or potentially a nerf then.

 

 

also, higher Level Enemies being hard or unkillable by Melee until very recently? have we been playing the same game? 

_{unrelated, War was not even an actually big deal when it was new, people called it powercreep but it was mediocre on arrival}

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Just not all of your Damage including Elemental Mods, as that would barely be an upgrade or potentially a nerf then.

How would it be a potential nerf? I weapon that can inflict all kinds of damage regardless of what the enemy is doesn’t sound like a need at all. And wouldn’t require having to make multiple build for each faction. Especially the corrupted. You’d be able to put you’re most powerful mods on it and it’ll be just as powerful against any enemy. Or more powerful depending on the enemy. Like corpus having less health than grineer so it would do more against them naturally. Infested have no protection. 
 

There’s enemies weak to radiation and others weak to corrosive, and other against magnetic. Most weapons can only inflict one of those three. Since you can only make one combined element with electricity. The buff on the War would be able to do all 3 and more. 
 

So how would it be possibly be a nerf?

[taiiat]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

How would it be a potential nerf?

you'd be losing Status Effects, which would dramatically reduce how useful having automatic Damage conversion would be in play.

which you could compensate for by spraying with a Gun, but it would make the Weapon itself potentially weaker. it's hard to say without running through the entire Damage calc whether losing so many Status Effects would actually be an increase in TTK or just counteract a significant amount of the benefit but it's somewhere between those two points.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

you'd be losing Status Effects, which would dramatically reduce how useful having automatic Damage conversion would be in play.

which you could compensate for by spraying with a Gun, but it would make the Weapon itself potentially weaker. it's hard to say without running through the entire Damage calc whether losing so many Status Effects would actually be an increase in TTK or just counteract a significant amount of the benefit but it's somewhere between those two points.

That could be said about all of the weapons. And as of right now, the War is weaker than like 5 other melee weapons. Now if DE added more to the buff. Like maybe make it where it can do the regular damage build but has an adaptive bonus damage that is also affected by the mods where it does primarily the enemies weaknesses. 

Like let’s say the War does a total of 250 base damage. DE could add like another 250 or half that, 125, of damage of enemy weaknesses. So when you build up the total damage for the regular stats, it builds up the adapting bonus damage as well. So if modded right, you could build it to do more status effects if you’re really that confident about them. Or maybe add a unique stance mod, for the War only, that allows it to be able to adapt like I originally suggested.

Maybe the War could also have a bonus block where it can completely redirect Tau type sentient damage back at the sentients. Lasers, homing orbs, etc. So if a sentient shoots lasers at you and you block it, the sentient will take all the damage equal to its weakness.

The status effects you’re talking about never worked for me. I’ve tried other people’s builds including this status effect build you’re talking about and they never worked so well. Only the builds meant for the enemy’s weakness. So I’m curious to know what exact build are YOU referring to if you’re claiming that it somehow makes the War “OP” against high level enemies. Or that this kind of suggestion would be a “nerf” which would imply the War does an enormous amount of damage compared to the Gram, Fragor, and the Galatine. Currently its only uniqueness is being a high impact heavy blade. That’s it. So whatever build you’re suggesting can easily be applied to multiple stronger weapons. So it wouldn’t possibly affect anybody negatively except maybe those who use the War regardless of its weak stats and riven disposition. 

Either way, the War is way too weak of a weapon for it to such a pain to obtain. All that and it turns out there are multiple weapons superior to it that are much easier to obtain. Really a big disappointment. 

[taiiat]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Like let’s say the War does a total of 250 base damage. DE could add like another 250 or half that, 125, of damage of enemy weaknesses. So when you build up the total damage for the regular stats, it builds up the adapting bonus damage as well. So if modded right, you could build it to do more status effects if you’re really that confident about them. Or maybe add a unique stance mod, for the War only, that allows it to be able to adapt like I originally suggested.

The status effects you’re talking about never worked for me. I’ve tried other people’s builds including this status effect build you’re talking about and they never worked so well. Only the builds meant for the enemy’s weakness. So I’m curious to know what exact build are YOU referring to if you’re claiming that it somehow makes the War “OP” against high level enemies. Or that this kind of suggestion would be a “nerf” which would imply the War does an enormous amount of damage compared to the Gram, Fragor, and the Galatine.

Currently its only uniqueness is being a high impact heavy blade.

converting just the native Base Damage would be sufficient for conversion to work, and it'd make a big difference without losing your most important Status Effects. it could work well.

surely you're joking? you've never used Condition Overload, and never applied Status Effects that allow you to Kill Enemies faster(whether that be a debuff or a DoT)? i find this impossible to believe if we're having this discussion.

yes, like almost all Melee Weapons there is little that is unique about War. i just wouldn't want a unique trait of it to actually have potential to make it deal less Damage than it does currently.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

converting just the native Base Damage would be sufficient for conversion to work, and it'd make a big difference without losing your most important Status Effects. it could work well.

surely you're joking? you've never used Condition Overload, and never applied Status Effects that allow you to Kill Enemies faster(whether that be a debuff or a DoT)? i find this impossible to believe if we're having this discussion.

yes, like almost all Melee Weapons there is little that is unique about War. i just wouldn't want a unique trait of it to actually have potential to make it deal less Damage than it does currently.

Trust me when people started begging for the multiple condition overloads I had, I started looking into it and made some builds. Some that focus on specific enemy weaknesses like corrosive and puncture for grineer. And made a multiple status build. Which can be kind of hard to do. And the enemies were still hard to damage. Don’t know what I was missing. Tried high status chance. Mostly on low critical weapons since their base damage was higher and provided more space for non critical mods. I’ve tried a lot of weapons. But no luck. Only thing that allowed/allows me to kill enemies quickly with my melees are builds designed specifically against those enemies. Which is why I figured a weapon that can do that against all enemies would be worthy of someone like stalker to hunt down tennos. 

Don’t know who you’re used to talking to but I’m the type of person who likes having a conversation/discussion on how certain weapons, warframes, and/or missions could be improved. And I try to be as detailed as possible to insure people understand what I’m talking about. So I’m glad you didn’t just throw the idea out the window like many have done before. I made a post about DE buffing melees because they were like toothpicks against high level enemies and some people that responded simply criticized the post with no elaboration. 

But being able to channel the base physical damage of the War while leaving the rest out, I guess could still work. Would still do a decent more damage against any enemy regardless of the mods placed on it. Especially grineer which impact does little. Maybe that AND a unique stance mod that converts all the damage to enemy weakness could be implemented so that everybody would have a choice instead of only a select few. So nobody would be negatively affected by the slight change/addition. Of course increasing the Riven disposition from 1 to either 2 or 3 would be nice too. Or buffing the base stats some more to balance out the riven disposition. Those 2-3 changes would bring the War up to the other melees level and make hunting the stalker worth it. 

1). Converting the base damage into the enemy’s weakness. Example: 250(plus pure damage buffing mods) does all puncture and/or corrosive to grineer. Radiation to Bombarders. Etc.

2). Add a unique War stance mod that converts all the damage from all mods and such into the enemy’s weakness. So if the total was some how like 3,000 then it would do 3,000 of pure puncture and/or corrosive against grineer. 

3). Increase the Riven disposition from 1 to either 2 or 3. So that the War would be more equal to the other melees like the Gram Prime or the Galatine Prime.

Would also be cool if range mods like Prime Reach made the energy blade around the War extend even further. Similar to Wukong’s staff. So that we can actually see the range of the War being increased. 

Of course creating a new weapon that uses the War as a resource to build a stronger version would be nice too. Like if Alad V got his hands on it and recreated it into a more powerful melee. Could definitely bring the War back to the top. Could kind of see Stalker returning as a result too and being even more difficult. Considering that the old Shadow Stalker is no longer a challenge to me. To gain this weapon and new and improved enemy would require being pretty far into the warframe for that to happen. Wouldn’t put it past Alad V to have made a deal with the Stalker considering how much they both know about and hate the Tenno. 

[taiiat]

16 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Some that focus on specific enemy weaknesses like corrosive and puncture for grineer. And made a multiple status build. Which can be kind of hard to do. And the enemies were still hard to damage. Don’t know what I was missing. Tried high status chance. Mostly on low critical weapons since their base damage was higher and provided more space for non critical mods. I’ve tried a lot of weapons. But no luck. Only thing that allowed/allows me to kill enemies quickly with my melees are builds designed specifically against those enemies.

Of course creating a new weapon that uses the War as a resource to build a stronger version would be nice too. 

whatever Damage Types you use, Condition Overload makes those deal many times more Damage so long as you can apply several Status Effects. no need to overthink it or anything. :)
(and Condition Overload is useful on all Melee Weapons because applying a Status Effect isn't that hard to do, even for relatively low Status Melees applying 2 is pretty easy, and you can always use Guns or Abilities to synergize together as well - much of Condition Overloads' power comes from it only asking for a single Slot for the Damage it can potentially offer any Melee Weapon)

though, you would then be using one of the rarest Weapons in the game as a pre-requisite for another Weapon, with the intention to replace it? that sounds like asking for trouble, to me. either with it feeling like replacing a Lore wise significant item with 'just another thing', or.... it being something even rarer to get, which would be yikes :D

Edited January 11, 2020 by taiiat

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

I'd like to point out that, as things are right now, the War can still hold it's own in up to lvl 200 content.

in fact, it would take up to that point for it to start actually falling off when compared to gram and galatine primes. The thing is, War(melee in general now...actually.) is just as viable as the previously mentioned swords. It would take gunning through an endless mission to the point of facing enemies that DE themselves have said "the game isn't balanced around such extreme runs" before it started showing how weak it is by comparison.

War will hold up in anything up to sortie level(let's not forget that before galatine and gram prime came out, War was one of, if not THE strongest weapon we had.) and even a good chunk beyond that.

 

On a technicality, War is fine as it is...at least when it comes to it's performance.

 

now....giving it a unique flair fitting of a sentient made weapon? yeah...it really needs that. also, quick question: why in the ever loving -CLEM!- does this thing do impact whilst the broken version does mother-CLEM!-ing slash?!

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Orcus Imperium said:

I'd like to point out that, as things are right now, the War can still hold it's own in up to lvl 200 content.

Where did you get this information? Cause a lot of... not so smart... players be using the simulacrum with enemies being in frozen mode which allows for TRUE damage to be applied. Have yet to see an actual video of an actual gameplay with fully alerted enemies being slaughtered by the weapons people be claiming or acting is OP. And chroma and rhino are not good examples because then it isn’t about the weapon itself but who is wielding it, or rather their warframe. 

Kind of tired of the repetitive “kill level 200 enemy” response when no mission starts off that high and it would take hours to reach to that point which nobody ever seems to show. How about y’all show proof for once instead of acting like every weapon is OP and that DE needs to buff the enemies like 10x every time somebody complains that a complicated weapon is too weak. 

[Arkandae]

Le 10/01/2020 à 02:26, taiiat a dit :

you'd be losing Status Effects, which would dramatically reduce how useful having automatic Damage conversion would be in play.

which you could compensate for by spraying with a Gun, but it would make the Weapon itself potentially weaker. it's hard to say without running through the entire Damage calc whether losing so many Status Effects would actually be an increase in TTK or just counteract a significant amount of the benefit but it's somewhere between those two points.

Against high armored ennemies, having the right element can be worth 2-3 condition overload stacks, maybe even more with primed pressure point equipped (might be better than CO in this case if you only count 1 status) . There is +75% damage, but also 75% armor mitigation. It would be an interesting choice between CO + stacking status and the weakness bonus.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Arkandae said:

Against high armored ennemies, having the right element can be worth 2-3 condition overload stacks, maybe even more with primed pressure point equipped (might be better than CO in this case if you only count 1 status) . There is +75% damage, but also 75% armor mitigation. It would be an interesting choice between CO + stacking status and the weakness bonus.

and having both would still be objectively better. which would let you have both, since you'd automatically get the preferred Damage Type, plus anything else you added onto the Weapon.

what... exactly was your point?

4 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

players be using the simulacrum with enemies being in frozen mode which allows for TRUE damage to be applied. Have yet to see an actual video of an actual gameplay with fully alerted enemies

i find it hard to believe that you've only ever seen Players leaving AI off for Stealth Multipliers when experimenting in Simulation.

 

but, just for you i added a few Polarities to a Weapon in a Melee Class i hate using, so that i could record this for you.

https://gfycat.com/dimwittedmammothbumblebee

ah thank you WYSIWYG for as always being garbage and the autoembed not working correctly

Edited January 11, 2020 by taiiat

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

4 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Where did you get this information? Cause a lot of... not so smart... players be using the simulacrum with enemies being in frozen mode which allows for TRUE damage to be applied.

Kind of tired of people assuming that I keep the enemies paused in the sim, or even use the sim at all for my statements.

it's taken from the logic of this generic mod setup, taking into account melee 2.0

Primed pressure point, CO, all 4 60/60 mods for viral and radiation, primed fury and berserker. this mod setup will shred every single enemy in up to and mostly beyond sortie level.

kinda curious where you got this info about how i do my own personal tests cuz a lot of....not so smart.

 

now let's take into account how the meta shifted with 3.0, shall we?

Primed pressure and/or CO, 3 60/60 or 90% for corrosive and heat, berserker, blood rush and gladiator might.

once again, due to how much more powerful ALL melee weapons became after 3.0 hit(especially after the buffs to the steel mods.) we can easily assume that War would, without ANY TROUBLE WHAT SO EVER, hold it's own when compared to it's two primed sisters.

 

 

so....what was that about me not being smart? You feel like trying that again? Because i can easily pull this stunt with 95% of my melee weapons right now(the only ones that actually suffer are my hysteria talons and the friggin GALVACORD.)

in closing: when it comes to conventional missions(Conventional referring to missions of level 1 all the way to at minimum, an hour into the highest leveled endless. REMEMBER, DE HAS STATED THE GAME ISN'T BALANCED AROUND ENEMIES BEYOND SORTIE LEVEL) War easily keeps up with the previously mentioned primed weapons. it's not weak, it doesn't need a buff.

WAR. IS. FINE.

 

EDIT: i'd like to point out i don't mean any of this with legit spite, but the sheer ignorance of assuming that i keep enemies paused frustrates me to no end. I'v been playing this game since ash prime's access ended, so i know how the sim works by this point. I'd also LIKE to assume that with how melee changed in 3.0...people would stop saying war needs a buff since 3.0 made nearly EVERY melee weapon viable(which, let's face it...the "meta" before was Gram prime, lesion or a polearm zaw if you actually wanted to "play the right way")

Edited January 11, 2020 by (XB1)Orcus Imperium

[Arkandae]

Il y a 2 heures, taiiat a dit :

and having both would still be objectively better. which would let you have both, since you'd automatically get the preferred Damage Type, plus anything else you added onto the Weapon.

what... exactly was your point?

Le 10/01/2020 à 02:26, taiiat a dit :

you'd be losing Status Effects, which would dramatically reduce how useful having automatic Damage conversion would be in play.

My point was just that damage conversion is very powerfull against tough ennemies thanks to armor mitigation, so it wouldn't "dramatically reduce how useful having automatic Damage conversion would be in play". And with IPS you don't really have both since not the whole weapon damage is converted and IPS isn't as effective as elements for many amor types (for example +15% only against alloy with puncture).

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Arkandae

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Arkandae said:

My point was just that damage conversion is very powerfull against tough ennemies thanks to armor mitigation, so it wouldn't "dramatically reduce how useful having automatic Damage conversion would be in play".

And with IPS you don't really have both since not the whole weapon damage is converted and IPS isn't as effective as elements for many amor types (for example +15% only against alloy with puncture).

it absolutely mellows out the delta between current and theoretical. a few Status Effects is easily 2.5x Damage, that's very significant. losing that reduces the delta that auto conversion would offer.
how is this even something to question.

how is converting the Base Damage but leaving Elementals alone not having both. you keep the most important Status Types, the ones you added with Elemental Mods, but still convert the IPS to the ideal Damage Type i every scenario so that it always gets the maximum Multiplier. you get the Multiplier, and still get Status Effects intentionally. it's exactly what you would want.

[OmegaVoid]

How about if the Elemental Mods would deal deal damage to the target according to what you were hitting, but proc status as modded?

That would really be the best of both worlds, I think?

[Arkandae]

il y a 52 minutes, taiiat a dit :

a few Status Effects is easily 2.5x Damage, that's very significant. losing that reduces the delta that auto conversion would offer.
how is this even something to question.

Having the good elemental damage is easily 2.5x damage too. For example here : https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1160082-spoilers-the-sentient-arm-cannon-can-be-a-fun-weaponbut/?tab=comments#comment-11300247 2643 corrosive sheet damage did 2.56x the damage of 3547 viral + 1391 electricity damage. That's 4.78x the damage in the end (ok that's just one example).

il y a 58 minutes, taiiat a dit :

how is converting the Base Damage but leaving Elementals alone not having both. you keep the most important Status Types, the ones you added with Elemental Mods, but still convert the IPS to the ideal Damage Type i every scenario so that it always gets the maximum Multiplier. you get the Multiplier, and still get Status Effects intentionally. it's exactly what you would want.

War would give the choice between having the good elemental damage and more statuses from your melee weapon (if you take another one). Both get a good damage multiplier, one from weakness, the other from CO. But you could still use CO on war an use your primary/secondary to get statuses as a bonus, then you would nearly always have weakness bonus + CO bonus, and that would be a nice little perk, not OP since we can already do this but not on all the units in one mission and it would require the usage of another weapon.

But I think I'm going to far in the explanation, because I think what you said is nice too (only IPS changing). What I was talking about in the beginning is this :

Le 10/01/2020 à 10:00, taiiat a dit :

and it'd make a big difference without losing your most important Status Effects.

and this :

Le 10/01/2020 à 10:00, taiiat a dit :

i just wouldn't want a unique trait of it to actually have potential to make it deal less Damage than it does currently.

This isn't the case. This is different. I think you underestimate weakness from elemental damage bonus a lot against high armored ennemies. 

[taiiat]

13 minutes ago, Arkandae said:

Having the good elemental damage is easily 2.5x damage too.

I think you underestimate weakness from elemental damage bonus a lot against high armored ennemies. 

yes, both can be significant - which is why sacrificing one for the other heavily dilutes the amount that you're actually gaining.

i definitely do not, i've spent 7 years hammering Damage Types and Status Types into peoples' heads, and i take advantage of them whenever possible. hence why despite ground Enemies in Railjack having strange hidden Stats, i still casually delete them with little trouble anyways. :)