Riven disposition changes based on popularity is wrong

[AzureTerra]

12 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Just because you chose to ignore it, doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever wondered why Railjack has random rolls on gear that already have single digit % drop chance? Why the Riven system has not been fixed for years, even though it is very simple to do so? Why the build time of a character is 84hours? It all points to one thing - the game wants to sell you premium currency in order to circumvent that.
You could end up in the same power point, but you probably won't. As I said, you don't have a CC/CD/MS/-mag cap Vectis riven with a primed chamber do you?

Maybe in a few months when i can be bothered to do anything to do with RJ i might wonder why X does Y. Never had any issue with how the riven system works, then again im most often mare interested in QoL for rivens (Secondary PT is a big draw on one for me) Only once have i every rushed a frame to build and that was because i wanted to get volt prime done on the tiny window of a x2 exp weekend that i could play and then i could sell it, i'm fine with waiting for them to build otherwise. I don't need a WTFOMGBBQ riven on my Vectis to do well with it (my actual Vectis riven lets me get three shots in the mag)

It boils down to that yes there is a system to skip the wait and there nothing wrong about that. You have issues with that and that's your problem not the games.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by AzureTerra

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Zimzala:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

That's just about the funniest thing I have read on  game forum, at least in the top 3.

It's is completely and totally subjective.

Show me a legal ruling and a defined legal definition that supports your assertation.

Show me a legal ruling on what an ARPG is or accept that Counterstrike is one.

[Highresist]

1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

It's is completely and totally subjective.

"Pay to win" games are (typically freemium) video games that offer items or other gear that give buyers advantages over non-paying players in real money or make gameplay marginally more sluggish and difficult for players who do not pay in premium currency or real-world money. Most of them are also shovelware games due to the fact that those games have highly repetitive themes and gameplay (Sounds familiar, huh?), numerous bugs and glitches (lol) and outright dreadful graphics, gameplay and originality. Most of these games are Western, Chinese, Japanese or even Korean mobile titles.

[Zimzala]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Show me a legal ruling on what an ARPG is or accept that Counterstrike is one.

I am not the one making assertations of strict defnitions of phrases that have been argued for decades.

I am not taking a side either way, I don't care either way.

The mere fact that anyone thinks so much of thier POV that they state things like this as fact when it is a subjective POV is simply really fun for me to challenge.

🙂

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb AzureTerra:

It boils down to that yes there is a system to skip the wait and there nothing wrong about that. You have issues with that and that's your problem not the games.

 

That's what this entire stupid argument boils down to, isn't it? You think Pay2Win is bad, you think Warframe isn't bad, therefore Warframe can't be Pay2Win. You guys literally argue that words don't mean things, because for you, that's actually true.

[Zimzala]

Just now, Krankbert said:

That's what this entire stupid argument boils down to, isn't it? You think Pay2Win is bad, you think Warframe isn't bad, therefore Warframe can't be Pay2Win. You guys literally argue that words don't mean things, because for you, that's actually true.

I only argue with people that think they know thw only one true right way about anything, because the world is full of grey and is not black and white.

Also, I really detest rules-lawyers that are more concerned about being 'right' then actually discussing a thing.

That's why I am here, you don't have to wonder or make things up out of your imagination.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

The mere fact that anyone thinks so much of thier POV that they state things like this as fact when it is a subjective POV is simply really fun for me to challenge.

🙂

  

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

I only argue with people that think they know thw only one true right way about anything, because the world is full of grey and is not black and white.

Also, I really detest rules-lawyers that are more concerned about being 'right' then actually discussing a thing.

That's why I am here, you don't have to wonder or make things up out of your imagination.

You know what the problem is with arguing dumb opinions because you think it's fun or "destest rules-lawyers"? When you're not arguing your actual opinion but are instead just trolling, you don't know how people arrived at that opinion, and you're quickly ending up at really dumb stuff like "wOrDs dOnT mEaN tHiNgS".

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

11 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Just because you chose to ignore it, doesn't mean it's not there. Have you ever wondered why Railjack has random rolls on gear that already have single digit % drop chance? Why the Riven system has not been fixed for years, even though it is very simple to do so? Why the build time of a character is 84hours? It all points to one thing - the game wants to sell you premium currency in order to circumvent that.
You could end up in the same power point, but you probably won't. As I said, you don't have a CC/CD/MS/-mag cap Vectis riven with a primed chamber do you?

 

This is silly and you are still not getting it. Skipping grind/content/wait time with premium currency, directly sold to you by the developer is deffinition of a P2W, regardless of the game accessability. Warframe has much more in common with Raid Shadow Legends, in terms of character progression, than Destiny2. The Riven mod system is made to be as unaccessable as possible.

Just from playing the game I had 100k kuva and a few riven mods from sorties/events or having a few rivs that no one wanted given to me. 

This was before I even knew what they really were. I actually had to google how to use them. 

Also, I've made around probably 1000p now from selling stuff in game that I didn't pay for.

I totally get what you're saying though. But...this is a larger issue that goes into capitalism, how businesses run etc. I'm not a college professor man, but I know people have to pay for everything in life that's for sure. It's a joke in America now that you simply just die if you're sick. You can go to the hospital if you want, but the debt will kill you instead lol.

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

You know what the problem is with arguing dumb opinions because you think it's fun? When you're not arguing your actual opinion but are instead just trolling, you don't know how people arrived at that opinion, and you're quickly ending up at really dumb stuff like "wOrDs dOnT mEaN tHiNgS".

You know the problem with personal attacks? They don't work on me.

The interpretation of what is P2W has been a hotly debated topic for a very long time.

To make blanket statements about what is and is not P2W has been part of that discussion for almost two decades, IME.

I stand by the general idea that if something can be acquired in the game, even if it can also be purchased, that the game is generally not P2W...IME WF falls into this slot.

Since there are little details like needing Plat to get more available weapon slots, it gets a little grey there, but Plat can be gained in-game through trading, so that IMO remains grey.

Others seem to think that just being able to buy anything in a game that adds more power to the player is by defninition P2W and I do not agree with that blanket statement.

 

This thread about the awesome flavor Rivens bring to this game is more of what I was hoping to ses discussed, I am fascinated by the players that spend their money/resources and then blame others for thier own bad choices.

[AzureTerra]

2 minutes ago, Highresist said:

"Pay to win" games are (typically freemium) video games that offer items or other gear that give buyers advantages over non-paying players in real money or make gameplay marginally more sluggish and difficult for players who do not pay in premium currency or real-world money.

Whats the big advantage here that someone buying "premium" has over someone who isn't other than a time factor. The game play isn't more sluggish for not paying a premium its the base speed and the "premium" just lets you skip that or increase the rate at which you gather loot/exp. Regarding Prime Access the only thing that a Free player misses out on is cosmetic options, both levels of play will end up with the Weapons/Frame at some point.

 

[Highresist]

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

The interpretation of what is P2W has been a hotly debated topic for a very long time.

Not really, just because you say so. It has been defined for a while.

 

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I stand by the general idea that if something can be acquired in the game, even if it can also be purchased, that the game is generally not P2W...IME WF falls into this slot.

Which by definition is wrong.

 

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Since there are little details like needing Plat to get more available weapon slots, it gets a little grey there, but Plat can be gained in-game through trading, so that IMO remains grey.

All of this is irrelevent if the premis is there. It certainly makes it less outrageous, but doesn't make it not pay to win.

 

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Others seem to think that just being able to buy anything in a game that adds more power to the player is by defninition P2W and I do not agree with that blanket statement.

Because it is and you agreeing or not doesn't matter.

 

6 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

This thread about the awesome flavor Rivens bring to this game

Hahahahaha, have that to the top 3 funniest things you have ever red on a game forum.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Highresist

[Krankbert]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

You know the problem with personal attacks? They don't work on me.

You know that entire comment didn't contain a single personal attack just like you know that this isn't a discussion. This is you trolling and me calling you out for it.

Honestly, I don't know why you still bother to pretend that you ever argued in good faith here after saying that you're just posting here because you "detest rules-lawyers" directly after asking for a legal ruling on what is and isn't Pay2Win.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Highresist]

2 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Whats the big advantage here that someone buying "premium" has over someone who isn't other than a time factor.

Well, time spent in a game generally means gain of power. Skipping time by payment is an indirect purchse of power.

 

3 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

The game play isn't more sluggish for not paying a premium

82hours to build a frame? Hello?

 

4 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

its the base speed and the "premium" just lets you skip that or increase the rate at which you gather loot/exp.

Which is character progression, which is power...

 

5 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

Regarding Prime Access the only thing that a Free player misses out on is cosmetic options, both levels of play will end up with the Weapons/Frame at some point.

Haha, no, not by a long shot. Considering you need 3 and a half days for every single frame to build, you need over 140 days to build all of the primed Warframes, without counting the time spend on farming the materials for them. Does that seem like an even point between prime users and free players?

[Zimzala]

8 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Not really, just because you say so. It has been defined for a while.

Hahahahaha, have that to the top 3 funniest things you have ever red on a game forum.

You are allowed your opinion, just as I am allowed mine...and I am glad you got the joke.

P2W is in fact so not defined that there are legal preceedings still brought about by players over it.

These things are black and white to some, not so much to others.

I can accept your subjective opinion, and even respect it, while not agreeing with it, that is the nature of the subject, IME.

 

8 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

You know that entire comment didn't contain a single personal attack just like you know that this isn't a discussion. This is you trolling and me calling you out for it.

How am I trolling?

You give your opinion, I give mine.

As for attacks, whatever, I think we do not have the same outlook on that one either. 🙂

Happy Monday!

Edited April 13, 2020 by Zimzala
words are hard

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

How am I trolling?

You mean when you said you detested rules-lawyers after refusing to accept anything less than the opinion of an actual lawyer on terminology from gaming culture, you were making an honest argument? I don't think you were. I actually hope for you, that you weren't.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Considering you need 3 and a half days for every single frame to build, you need over 140 days to build all of the primed Warframes, without counting the time spend on farming the materials for them.

Sorry for jumping into the fray here (I’m on no-one’s side at the moment regarding your discussions).

I just had a “Hold up” moment regarding the large number I see in this quoted bit and wanted clarification; is this a number that’s arrived at by building frames one after the other? 🤔 

Edited April 13, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[Zimzala]

7 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

You mean when you said you detested rules-lawyers after refusing to accept anything less than the opinion of an actual lawyer on video game terminology, you were making an honest argument? I can only hope that it wasn't.

Yes.

In western society, when something becomes a definition based on a legal precedent, then we have laws and processes to enforce that defnition.

IMO, anything less than that is still a subjective discussion based on a number of factors, enviromental and personal.

The only time a definition like this matters is if a person or group wants to sue another person or group over it...the rest is all subjective prose from both sides.

Until a non-interested third party like a court of law is involved, things of this nature remain subjective definitions, because there is no 'authority' to step in and declare a decision/opinion as fact.

IME, most of these arguments on gaming forums have, in fact, been led by those, on both sides, by rules-lawyers that love to have black and white boxes for everything and they don't do well with grey, that enjoy winning the argument more than actually discussing the topic and accepting other people think differently than they do.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Zimzala
speeling

[Highresist]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I just had a “Hold up” moment regarding the large number I see in this quoted bit and wanted clarification; is this a number that’s arrived at by building frames one after the other? 🤔 

Yes or are you going to argue that you can build them at the same time? In which case, sure if you have 200 parts lying around. I have 1.5k hours into the game and still have only a 3rd of the primed Warframes. Also vaulting exists, which I didn't even bring to the table, but there you have it. Why is vaulting a thing? I certainly have no clue. Its only purpose is to lock gear, forcing people to use plat on it.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Highresist

[(NSW)Greybones]

4 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Yes or are you going to argue that you can build them at the same time? In which case, sure if you have 200 parts lying around.

No arguing to be found here, just seeking clarification. My brain was like “I thought for sure I could build multiple frames at once”, but I’ve never actually done it so I wasn’t certain 😛 

Thanks for answering my question

Edited April 13, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[AzureTerra]

20 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Well, time spent in a game generally means gain of power. Skipping time by payment is an indirect purchse of power.

82hours to build a frame? Hello?

Which is character progression, which is power...

Haha, no, not by a long shot. Considering you need 3 and a half days for every single frame to build, you need over 140 days to build all of the primed Warframes, without counting the time spend on farming the materials for them. Does that seem like an even point between prime users and free players?

Power over what? Having Prime anything doesn't make a player better at the game.  

 

[Krankbert]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Zimzala:

Yes.

In western society, when something becomes a definition based on a legal precedent, then we have laws and processes to enforce that defnition.

"Well yes, but actually no."

You're American?

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Krankbert]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb AzureTerra:

Power over what? Having Prime anything doesn't make a player better at the game.  

 

"iTeMs DoNt CoUnT, oNlY sKiLlZ mAtTeR"

This is pathetic. Are you going to argue that an Amprex bought for plat isn't an advantage over an Mk1-Braton next?

[AzureTerra]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

"iTeMs DoNt CoUnT, oNlY sKiLlZ mAtTeR"

This is pathetic. Are you going to argue that an Amprex bought for plat isn't an advantage over an Mk1-Braton next?

Given that you can get the same amprex for credits. If a Mk-1 Braton works someone then its better than the plat bought weapon. 

[Krankbert]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb AzureTerra:

Given that you can get the same amprex for credits.

Not until MR10.

  

vor 11 Minuten schrieb AzureTerra:

If a Mk-1 Braton works someone then its better than the plat bought weapon. 

Yeah, you're actually arguing that an Amprex isn't better than an Mk1-Braton.

Like I said: You feel that Warframe is good, you feel that Pay2Win-Games are bad, therefore Warframe can't be Pay2Win. That's all there is to this. And since getting advantages by spending real money would make the game Pay2Win, you won't ever admit that anything is an advantage, because this is all about your feelings and completely disconnected from the actual game. This discussion is pointless.

Edit: Yeah, between you, the troll, and the guy that tried to get people to shut up by claiming that it's literally a criminal offense to say that a game is Pay2win, there's far too much dishonesty here. You guys need to take a good look at yourself. I'm out.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert

[Zimzala]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

This discussion is pointless.

It's a video game forum, by defninition, it's a pointless discussion., IME.

You have decided on a very narrow a strict defnition of P2W...and that's fine, you are not alone in that outlook.

The funny part to me is that you don't seem to be able to understand your outlook is not the only one that holds merit.

"My way or GTFO"

So binary, when the world is analogue.

Good luck!