[The Outdated Parkour Thread] It Finally Happened! (Voice Your Opinion In The Poll!)

[unknow99]

So many people want to nerf an entire skillset. So rather than asking for more options and adding new skillsets into the game they'd rather just see everyone who utilizes those skillsets to move as slowly as them.

 

Mobility and reactivity are a core part of survivability. It let's squishier frames and melee frames have a chance to stay alive versus higher enemy pressure. Warframe is supposed to be about options. If you prefer to focus on developing different skillsets other than the currently available mobility ones you can play tankier warframes with more defensive abilities, or frames with skills that provide mobility of their own.

 

I'm all for getting a cap on the velocity and distance traveled of the faster weapons, or for limiting the ability to endlessly chain-copter. I repeat. I am for toning Coptering down.But these skillsets need to remain for the sake of the mobility and reactiveness they promote.  Or maybe these tools need to be limited by stamina more. But if so we need our warframe mod loadout expanded so that players who enjoy this playstyle can still mod to support it. At least then it would  be a conscious choice to concentrate on that aspect. This is my perspective as a melee player as well as someone who can move quickly even without a melee equipped.

 

It's like asking for all the Smash Brothers Melee fans to stop playing their game and switch to Brawl. You might like the slower and shinier game, but a lot of players fell in love with the faster one.

 

I don't think I'd be able to play like this without this skillset: http://i.imgur.com/rocOzqD.jpg?1 Or at least I wouldn't of had as much of a good time doing it.

 

edit: I just want to reiterate I'm not saying "Just deal with it." I'm still trying to contribute constructively by offering suggestions on how it might be toned down. Yes, something needs to change. And Warframe's mobility needs to evolve. I just think the core reactivity offered by these mobility combos should remain, though perhaps in a somewhat more limited form. Keep in mind combos were originally an unintentional design aspect in the game Street Fighter II that was eventually embraced. And in many other games one's attacks are also a core part of one's mobility. Please don't make me play Jogframe.

You make a point there. (and I played every Smash game & nearly all the 2d Street Fighter games so I understand you. :p )

 

Directional melee,coptering : it needs to be TONED DOWN.

[Aure7]

So many people want to nerf an entire skillset. So rather than asking for more options and adding new skillsets into the game they'd rather just see everyone who utilizes those skillsets to move as slowly as them.

 

Mobility and reactivity are a core part of survivability. It let's squishier frames and melee frames have a chance to stay alive versus higher enemy pressure. Warframe is supposed to be about options. If you prefer to focus on developing different skillsets other than the currently available mobility ones you can play tankier warframes with more defensive abilities, or frames with skills that provide mobility of their own.

 

I'm all for getting a cap on the velocity and distance traveled of the faster weapons, or for limiting the ability to endlessly chain-copter. I repeat. I am for toning Coptering down.But these skillsets need to remain for the sake of the mobility and reactiveness they promote.  Or maybe these tools need to be limited by stamina more. But if so we need our warframe mod loadout expanded so that players who enjoy this playstyle can still mod to support it. At least then it would  be a conscious choice to concentrate on that aspect. This is my perspective as a melee player as well as someone who can move quickly even without a melee equipped.

 

It's like asking for all the Smash Brothers Melee fans to stop playing their game and switch to Brawl. You might like the slower and shinier game, but a lot of players fell in love with the faster one.

 

I don't think I'd be able to play like this without this skillset: http://i.imgur.com/rocOzqD.jpg?1 Or at least I wouldn't of had as much of a good time doing it.

 

edit: I just want to reiterate I'm not saying "Just deal with it." I'm still trying to contribute constructively by offering suggestions on how it might be toned down. Yes, something needs to change. And Warframe's mobility needs to evolve. I just think the core reactivity offered by these mobility combos should remain, though perhaps in a somewhat more limited form. Keep in mind combos were originally an unintentional design aspect in the game Street Fighter II that was eventually embraced. And in many other games one's attacks are also a core part of one's mobility. Please don't make me play Jogframe.

you're kinda flying past my thread to argue against something that is not quite my idea.

 

The days where I encouraged to tone down and harshly cut down speeds of copter are gone. Please thoroughly search the OP, you'll see that currently I am highly encouraging increased sprint speeds and varied, fun parkour to take over it. I am constantly repeating how the end result should be not only pleasing the guys who hate how copter looks, but anyone else who want this "mobility" stuff which we... well ALL DO. I am not some sort of fat ! rhino, I just prefer putting rush on my loki instead of coptering everywhere.

...just please read it, I am tired of repeating it in the comments.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Aure7

[Ryjeon]

you're kinda flying past my thread to argue against something that is not quite my idea.

 

The days where I encouraged to tone down and harshly cut down speeds of copter are gone. Please thoroughly search the OP, you'll see that currently I am highly encouraging increased sprint speeds and varied, fun parkour to take over it. I am constantly repeating how the end result should be not only pleasing the guys who hate how copter looks, but anyone else who want this "mobility" stuff which we... well ALL DO. I am not some sort of fat ! rhino, I just prefer putting rush on my loki instead of coptering everywhere.

...just please read it, I am tired of repeating it in the comments.

 

I had the options you've contributed in mind while writing this by but I was not addressing you. I was addressing people who continue to say "remove [xx]" without addressing the bigger picture. Most posts on the subject seemed to just be extreme [xx] is good or [xx] is bad type stuff. I'm giving my perspective in the hopes that collectively and constructively we can reach a more satisfying solution. I already know you have good ideas in the OP that speak a lot to what people are hoping for in the evolution of warframe.  The point I wanted to emphasize is the hope to preserve and promote the 'options' and 'reactivity' the current framework represents to people who enjoy the system. Since most people only think of coptering as a rushing tool, rather than an asset that is part of a larger framework.

 

So I'm for your proposed changes. I think they're a good direction. And I also enjoy the current framework and enjoy a lot of depth from learning to utilize the techniques however arcane they may be to most people. I'm not saying "don't change things." I'm just adding my voice which is saying "expand things" to the crowd of other voices. I care mate. Don't get me wrong. I want everyone to have a good time.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Ryjeon

[CombatantFrost4]

Reduce coptering range will make evryone use parkour, wheter you love it or not, copter is meant for killing not moving around. In real life, people seem weird slashing at nothing just because they want to move

[Rakshal]

Reduce coptering range will make evryone use parkour...

Nope. Parkour right now is clunky and broken, and the maps hardly favor parkour. Reducing the speed of coptering wouldn't make people use parkour, it would just slow the game down a ton.

[CombatantFrost4]

Nope. Parkour right now is clunky and broken, and the maps hardly favor parkour. Reducing the speed of coptering wouldn't make people use parkour, it would just slow the game down a ton.

I think parkour 2.0 will fix the parkour system in the game, but coptering and falling on my own buttt every meter i run is ridiculous.

[FrameUnity]

The parkour in this game should follow Assassin's Creed parkour system with some modification to suit ninja feel...

[FrameUnity]

Reduce coptering range will make evryone use parkour, wheter you love it or not, copter is meant for killing not moving around. In real life, people seem weird slashing at nothing just because they want to move

I agree with you that coptering must not be used for movement, however, I would ask DE to first fix Warframe parkour system before making any other changes.

[DSpite]

The currently ability we have to practically look up, pick practically any ledge, or level or ceiling space and just fly up there, is, in my option, in it's current form, a bit over the top. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Yes in the sense that the current level design we have right now was not specifically designed to mesh well with it, if at all.

 

We don't have extended "maps" that support the concept of wall running and acrobatics, we simply have a bunch of tiles that have a couple of thrown in elements that allow us to cross at best 50-60 meters and shave down the run from a full 5 seconds of sprinting to 2 seconds of flinging ourselves about.

 

No amount of "Movement 2.0" is going to help the fact that:

 

A) The reason we rush through tiles is because we have seen them 1000 times already, and there is zero reasons for us to interact with any given tile unless it contains the objective in question.

B) The current tiles are at best 100x100 "meters" in size and contain little in the way of architecture that justifies getting to any unusual spots. There is also little reason for DE to place spots the AI has no chance getting to.

 

DE could have easily made the boss battles happen on actual custom tiles that are specifically designed to favor a specifically scripted boss AI encounter and at the same time give us room to climb and throw ourselves around, instead, all in all the boss battle, the bosses barely access the current "custom" tiles, and usually only move and die within a few meters of where they initially spawn.

 

The idea of a Parkour 2.0, or toning down coptering etc etc is not what I see as the problem. I simply cannot see a way that with the current AI mechanics, enemy LOS, enemy accuracy, and now the fact that most of our abilities are been made into rather harsh LOS, that any "improvements" will actually BE improvements and not be actually worse.

 

Even the maps in Global Agenda contained actual elements that needed decent jetpack control to get around, use to lose LOS to enemy fire and generally help in encounters. We still don't have that here.

 

Even if you turned every tile into a convoluted maze, why would I, after the 100th run, do anything but the absolute minimal amount of required work, other then what I need to get from Entry_Door_1 to Exit_Door_2 ?

 

If we don't get actual reasons to remain and interact with specific tiles for extended periods, there will still be no reason to "Parkour" worth a damn. We will just learn the optimal point(s) on each tile, park our asses there and shoot until it's time to move to another tile, ie, exactly what we do already.

[taiiat]

The parkour in this game should follow Assassin's Creed parkour system with some modification to suit ninja feel...

no thanks. 'Parkour' in Assassin's Creed is a joke. it's extremely clunky, slow, and it's a horrible Console game.

one button tied to 392835926 different actions is a fast lane to the Player deleting the game out of frustration as the game randomly decides to do something other than what they were pressing the buttons to do.

Assassin's Creed is a prime example of how to NOT do high mobility.

but, if that's good, maybe while we're at it, we should also randomly fly your camera around with no rime or reason to make it harder to see what you're doing. RNG camera location is obviously a good feature to stack on top of clunky and awkward controls!

[tmtke]

The main problem with coptering a directional melee is that its distance is tied to the weapon's animation, therefore most of the players who wants to rushfarm, will choose melee only for speedup purposes. This playstyle should be addressed in Parkour 2.0 as well (though I don't like rushing).

 

My only fear is that the programmers will constrain themselves to the currently available tilesets. If we are lucky, then they will create a system viable uniformly everywher and later design some tiles to parkour on.

[Dawn]

I'm really just hoping Parkour 2.0 is better than Melee 2.0, because melee is still extremely gimicky despite being "overhauled".

[zoboso]

-snip-

 

Even if you turned every tile into a convoluted maze, why would I, after the 100th run, do anything but the absolute minimal amount of required work, other then what I need to get from Entry_Door_1 to Exit_Door_2 ?

 

-snip-

 

There were convoluted maze tiles, but those tiles were removed because the needed way-points to navigated those tiles were broken.

[StonedMakak]

snip

 

You make a good point, but you also assume a bit too much. 

 

Why parkour needs to be optimal, or have a point other than simply being a fun mechanic to use? Does it necessarily need to contribute to how fast/efficient a mission can be completed? From a "time-reward" perspective 90% of equipment is not worth using other than for mastery fodder, and yet people use those items. In the aforementioned Assassin's Creed there is fast travel option, and yet many people choose to run everywhere because they like the feeling of freedom that this particular system, with all its flaws, gives them.

 

I'm saying this because I get a min-maxer vibe from you, as if parkour needs to have 100% synergy with everything else in game to have it's existence justified. Unless you base your entire game on parkour, as an integral and absolutely crucial mechanic, parkour is never going to be more than fluff and icing on the cake. The problem with Warframe is that this icing is godawful.

 

As for tilesets not adapted for advanced movement - you gotta start somewhere. In order to redesign maps for a new parkour system you need to have that system working to know exactly what can you do with the maps. Baby steps.

 

But  you're right in that a single 2.0 is not gonna make parkour perfect, it will be a long process, and how DE handles this first step will tell us a lot about their further plans (if they have any). 

[Tyrian3k]

-snip-

 

I do agree that fixing parkour will  be a longer process, just like  so many things in Warframe that could use some looking into (like balancing weapons and mods or refining Archwing).

 

But you have to realize why certain people use coptering all the time. A large portion of Warframe consists of pure grinding which players will want to accomplish as fast as possible since it gets painfully repetitive to do a mission 50 times and it burns you out. The means to do it as fast as possible is currently just coptering through the mission, unless of course the mission is an endless one.

 

What DE might want to do as the first baby step when they introduce a working Parkour 2.0 are specialized parkour treasure rooms that allow skilled players to get an extra reward and I actually imagine them a bit similar to Spy 2.0 rooms in the way that there are energy barriers that either damage you or initiate a lockdown timer for the treasure once you touch them.

 

The biggest project is likely refitting old tilesets to work with the new mechanic, e.g. by adding shortcuts that allow you to progress faster by using parkour, but before they actually do that, DE needs to be confident that parkour is mostly finalized and won't get complete overhauls any more.

[dashashou]

I do agree that fixing parkour will  be a longer process, just like  so many things in Warframe that could use some looking into 

 

-snip- 

 

Aure7 Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:04 PM

 

this post was first created way back then  and now  getting a stop-hang on our wall cling , and the ability to swing to the left /right on the never used zip lines  just seem soo primitive , esp when compared to Overgrowth an indi game that came  out a long  time  ago

 

Warframe is never going to be overgrowth . I've accepted  that . Even  the newest  spy 2.0 which is sposto be this stealth parkour navigation is so small  and  primitive in  design  and complexity 

[CombatantFrost4]

They should change the sprinting system and the stamina system. For example, when  a Tenno spints for 3 seconds, he gains extra speed. So like every 3 seconds, he gains extra speed. VAULTING, GOD, That has to change, like enabling a player to use what kind of vault they want and increase flow and style.

[ThePresident777]

I just noticed that the Original Post was edited some time ago to display the phrase "Ninjas Use Melee Attacks to Move Free".

 

That complaint is easily resolved by giving coptoring it's own key instead of using the melee key, or using the use key since use key is useless without the right receptacle. 

 

If that is not acceptable then it shows that the phrase is not a serious argument or complaint at all, but is instead, preying on the sentiment that coptoring is an accident one should feel bad about and excise from the game instead of develop.

Edited April 1, 2015 by ThePresident777

[FrameUnity]

no thanks. 'Parkour' in Assassin's Creed is a joke. it's extremely clunky, slow, and it's a horrible Console game.

one button tied to 392835926 different actions is a fast lane to the Player deleting the game out of frustration as the game randomly decides to do something other than what they were pressing the buttons to do.

Assassin's Creed is a prime example of how to NOT do high mobility.

but, if that's good, maybe while we're at it, we should also randomly fly your camera around with no rime or reason to make it harder to see what you're doing. RNG camera location is obviously a good feature to stack on top of clunky and awkward controls!

Oh I beg to differ. It's the simplicity in doing parkour that fits in the fast pace action such as Warframe and Assassin's Creed parkour is one of the best system introduced that has other games follow it. You may not like it but many others including me do, but that's beside the point.

 

The point is that, I'm not asking DE to copy Assassin's Creed parkour directly, but with some modification to suit the space ninja feel of Warframe. In other words, 'get the best of both worlds'.

[CombatantFrost4]

Oh I beg to differ. It's the simplicity in doing parkour that fits in the fast pace action such as Warframe and Assassin's Creed parkour is one of the best system introduced that has other games follow it. You may not like it but many others including me do, but that's beside the point.

 

The point is that, I'm not asking DE to copy Assassin's Creed parkour directly, but with some modification to suit the space ninja feel of Warframe. In other words, 'get the best of both worlds'.

Yeah I agree, I mean I like AC and it's parkour, and certainly putting this into Warframe would be cool

[taiiat]

-snip-

the 'Parkour' in Assassin's Creed is great, if you don't want to do complex movement that allows you to be a skilled Player.

so it's great if you... basically don't use it.

'Omni buttons' are cancer and they make skilled play very difficult, therefore forcing the game to water itself down to compensate.

chances are, like many, it's a complete miscommunication by saying they 'like' the 'Parkour' in Assassin's Creed. most just mean Free Running, climbing walls and jumping between rooftops.

which we're already capable of doing to some extent.

[Aure7]

I just noticed that the Original Post was edited some time ago to display the phrase "Ninjas Use Melee Attacks to Move Free".

 

That complaint is easily resolved by giving coptoring it's own key instead of using the melee key, or using the use key since use key is useless without the right receptacle. 

 

If that is not acceptable then it shows that the phrase is not a serious argument or complaint at all, but is instead, preying on the sentiment that coptoring is an accident one should feel bad about and excise from the game instead of develop.

the reliance on primitive and awful looking melee attacks to build a movement system in a triple A video game is simply unacceptable. Melee attacks usually have a mobility component to help connect the hits easier and more efficiently. In warframe, they are basically bad looking but powerful versions of a dash or a jump that just so happen to do some damage... sometimes... when you're lucky and that osprey is right in your face. Then you have to run all the way back that you just flew to try and hit it again.

 

With that statement I am encouraging to finally separate these movement from copter and dir melee. Make them extremely efficient at landing that hit repeatedly and exactly when you need it. And make the new parkour extremely efficient an moving around with the same powerful jumps or dashes that you kinda already do with melee weapons. Incorporate it all into an overall flow of the parkour and seperate from the stats of melee weapons.

[tmtke]

Moves like Slash dash / Rhino charge and Super jump should be available for all players, the associated warframes (in these cases Excalibur and Rhino) should enhance these and/or add other utility. I mean coptering could be transformed to the dashing move, directional melee to a general charged jump (which is in the works already). Excalibur then adds the other components on top of them, for example in a certain (duration based) time window.

Edited April 1, 2015 by tmtke

[StonedMakak]

I do agree that fixing parkour will  be a longer process, just like  so many things in Warframe that could use some looking into (like balancing weapons and mods or refining Archwing).

 

But you have to realize why certain people use coptering all the time. A large portion of Warframe consists of pure grinding which players will want to accomplish as fast as possible since it gets painfully repetitive to do a mission 50 times and it burns you out. The means to do it as fast as possible is currently just coptering through the mission, unless of course the mission is an endless one.

 

What DE might want to do as the first baby step when they introduce a working Parkour 2.0 are specialized parkour treasure rooms that allow skilled players to get an extra reward and I actually imagine them a bit similar to Spy 2.0 rooms in the way that there are energy barriers that either damage you or initiate a lockdown timer for the treasure once you touch them.

 

The biggest project is likely refitting old tilesets to work with the new mechanic, e.g. by adding shortcuts that allow you to progress faster by using parkour, but before they actually do that, DE needs to be confident that parkour is mostly finalized and won't get complete overhauls any more.

 

All you say is valid, the grind, the burn out, the urge to do things ASAP. But I have a slightly different perspective - as I would love an addition of treasure rooms as you describe them, I could do without any reward-type incentive for parkour. If it is fun to use (and there is space where it can be used ofc) that's quite enough for me.

 

If I can wallrun while mowing down Grineer, jump to a opposite wall, pause for a bit to line up a headshot, then continue running to finally launch myself at a group of enemies to hack them to pieces, while having that feeling of fluidity and control described in the OP, I really don't care about that Rihno who just coptered across the room. I'm having fun.

 

That, I think, is the main problem of Warframe: it mainly offers fun that is reward-based kind thing ("Look, that thing just dropped after 6 hours of grind! Woohooo!"), but pure fun derived from well-thought out mechanics is somewhat less important. And devs get away with it because most players just care about the reward, and then complain how unfun the grind is. Hence why I would first focus on delivering a fun parkour instead of "rewarding" parkour.   

 

I guess I'm that kind of a donkey who doesn't need a carrot if the task is pleasant. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by tisdfogg

[Aure7]

pure fun derived from well-thought out mechanics is somewhat less important. And devs get away with it because most players just care about the reward, and then complain how unfun the grind is. 

 

Warframe in a nutshell.

 

I see we are tiny and few unimportant droplets in a huge &#! ocean of hardcore grinders and farmers.