Protea

[Jim22]

protea is fun however some ability's need some changes. 

her first ability is good.

her second needs to be effected by duration mods, remove the 10 plasma ammo make it infinite, and either increase the dmg of it or let it be effected by primary or secondary mods.

her three is good however, we should be able to place more than 1 down maybe 2 or 3. 

her fourth ability is meh I don't really see a use for it, and I don't know what you could do to fix it or make it better.

[hs0003]

1 needs less animations

2 needs some kind of scaling yes, either like Vaubans flechette orb, or by mods like you suggested. When it comes to duration, it could also be the other way around, where it has finite ammo, but only goes away when it's been used (also like Vaubans 1)

Edited June 13, 2020 by hs0003

[Birdframe_Prime]

Duration does affect her 2, that's how you get more ammo. The 10 ammo you see is because you have a long Duration on the function. My build right now only gives her 9 ^^

Since the ability scales itself up with 50% damage per hit, and your own Duration giving her 10 shots, that's 500% damage on that last shot minimum (because all enemies caught in the beam count as a hit, so double-hits will cause two charges). With even base Strength, that's scaling the 500 base damage up to 2500 by the end, so a total damage dealt out of 13,500 if all shots hit the same target. Allowing a max-duration, neutral Strength turret to kill unarmoured units like Infested up to level 50-60, depending on which mob. Plus it guarantees a Heat proc, so you're stacking the initial damage with 50% of the total damage of each hit in turn into a tick per second, meaning you're then getting a further 6 ticks of 14,416 damage, meaning that if you just hit one Ancient with all shots and let the status tick, you'd technically be able to kill a level 175 with nothing but this ability and duration mods.

With a double-Umbral Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Power Drift, Growing Power and her Passive buff you can get to 350% power Strength. This buffs the base damage to 1750.

My build with only 9 shots in the chamber gets my ninth shot to 7875, the total output damage to 67,275 on a single target. With a Heat proc for about 75k per tick, so... realistically, an unarmoured target up to silly kinds of levels will die. And even an armoured target, with the new scaling meaning that armoured enemies have nowhere near the real damage reduction they used to have, and the Heat proc will cut that down to half after a second, you can probably use this single ability to kill a level 100 Bombard with the raw damage plus the burn damage.

But that's only basic calculations. In practice, against hordes and deploying it against actual groups of enemies, you could probably count on a single cast for any Star Chart level mission without issue, and probably most Sorties too, because you're not using it for the pure damage, you're also using it for the combo with her kit and the CC/debuff that the procs cause.

That said, her Dispenser also relies more on Strength than on being able to place multiple. You just have to treat it like any of the regular pads (if you could only deploy 1 pad at a time), you have to wait for each dispensation in turn. But with Strength, you can make the ability 50% more likely to drop doubles of everything. So you can get two orbs instead of 1 each turn, if RNG is with you.

The strategy with that is to set it and forget it as you go into a fight, then come back to top up with anything you wasted during the fight. You'll have ammo, health and energy just waiting for you and more of it on the way.

Stunning enemies with her 1 and 2, using weapon damage to mow through the survivors, and then having massive sustain with her 3 and 4, I think she's a fairly balanced and well-thought-out frame. Not super-top-tier, but a solid B+ to A- Warframe that can see a team through a lot of silliness.

[snowroporo]

Well you have got to realize that a warframe power that i meant for dps shouldn't be just used as cc and armor stripping that isn't even that good and with hardmode and ultra hardmode coming it's embarrassing to see how they seemingly haven't thought of damage abilities and them scaling the high levels even for their most recent warframes

You also got to remember that she's an engineer with a turret she's supposed to rely on it for damage no matter what level look at vauban for example he is an engineer and he can practically afk missions but DE didn't want that for ptotea and that's fine her turret has really short duration and doesn't have 360° coverage that all sounds way worse then him already huh but that's also fine but maybe if it was more potent by giving it the ability to scale with enemies the same way as vauban it would be good and it's fine if it does a lot of damage cause it has two kinds of scaling because remember it's duration isn't that long

Edited June 14, 2020 by snowroporo

[Annnoth]

7 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Duration does affect her 2, that's how you get more ammo. The 10 ammo you see is because you have a long Duration on the function. My build right now only gives her 9 ^^

Since the ability scales itself up with 50% damage per hit, and your own Duration giving her 10 shots, that's 500% damage on that last shot minimum (because all enemies caught in the beam count as a hit, so double-hits will cause two charges). With even base Strength, that's scaling the 500 base damage up to 2500 by the end, so a total damage dealt out of 13,500 if all shots hit the same target. Allowing a max-duration, neutral Strength turret to kill unarmoured units like Infested up to level 50-60, depending on which mob. Plus it guarantees a Heat proc, so you're stacking the initial damage with 50% of the total damage of each hit in turn into a tick per second, meaning you're then getting a further 6 ticks of 14,416 damage, meaning that if you just hit one Ancient with all shots and let the status tick, you'd technically be able to kill a level 175 with nothing but this ability and duration mods.

With a double-Umbral Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Power Drift, Growing Power and her Passive buff you can get to 350% power Strength. This buffs the base damage to 1750.

My build with only 9 shots in the chamber gets my ninth shot to 7875, the total output damage to 67,275 on a single target. With a Heat proc for about 75k per tick, so... realistically, an unarmoured target up to silly kinds of levels will die. And even an armoured target, with the new scaling meaning that armoured enemies have nowhere near the real damage reduction they used to have, and the Heat proc will cut that down to half after a second, you can probably use this single ability to kill a level 100 Bombard with the raw damage plus the burn damage.

But that's only basic calculations. In practice, against hordes and deploying it against actual groups of enemies, you could probably count on a single cast for any Star Chart level mission without issue, and probably most Sorties too, because you're not using it for the pure damage, you're also using it for the combo with her kit and the CC/debuff that the procs cause.

Youre not wrong about the numbers, but thats a huge problem with the ability where youre basically building up all this duration just to wait on those last couple shots that actually get much done. Unless you get lucky with some pierces, those last couple shots are only going to hit like 2 enemies each maybe some more if the angle nets you an aoe hit. While yeah the duration is super quick regardless it really sucks that 80% of the ability is just banking on a quarter of its hits, especially when what it shoots at is random. Past that its just a bit of CC/debuff which a lot of weapons can also fause just fine anyways.

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Annnoth

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Annnoth said:

Past that its just a bit of CC/debuff which a lot of weapons can also fause just fine anyways.

That's kind of why I put in that last part of the comment? The final part that you quoted?

And then, after describing her Dispensary, I also followed with this:

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Stunning enemies with her 1 and 2, using weapon damage to mow through the survivors, and then having massive sustain with her 3 and 4, I think she's a fairly balanced and well-thought-out frame. Not super-top-tier, but a solid B+ to A- Warframe that can see a team through a lot of silliness.

Because no, not all weapons can do that, and she isn't entirely about ability damage. Buffing her damage, or giving it scaling, would be kind of pointless because she's an all-round hybrid, with CC, Debuffs, Team Support and personal Survivability that makes her usable everywhere, but not a dedicated damage frame.

In every single star-chart mission, that turret is strong enough. Heck, up to Sortie, or even Rank 5 Lich, I can see that turret being useful. There's no need to buff it for any of the content we're actually going to be doing.

She just doesn't have the scaling that lets her go beyond that on abilities alone, you absolutely should combine what she does with weapons for greater effect. And that's not a bad thing, that's how she's designed.

If her turret scaled, or her Shrapnel Mines scaled, then literally what would be the point of scaling enemies?

People are looking at Vauban and are so amazed that Flechette Orb (yes, and Photon Strike) has a mechanical enemy level based scaling function, but neglect the fact that to actually kill enemies consistently with it, you need to make use of his CC, the passive damage boost that gives, and the damage buffs of Overcharger, and for armoured enemies you need his strip from Bastille to break them back to just Health. You combo all his abilities to even make Flechette Orb relevant because of its slow and random fire rate and its limited placement function.

If something with a massively high fire rate, and self-buffing without needing to combo the abilities (beyond three prior casts to make it have 100% extra Strength), also scaled with enemy level? There's no combo there, there's no build-up, and there's definitely no accounting for needing to remove enemy defense either.

There's a fine line to walk between powerful and over-powered, and giving her turret scaling is stepping over that.

[Sahansral]

Atm she's a clunky shield tank frame with a dispenser.
Her "turret" isn't scaling and lasts not long enough. In my opinion a turret makes only sense if it rewards for good postioning and watches after your back for a while so you can concentrate elsewhere.
Her ultimate hasn't really a purpose. Why go back in a game that mostly moves forward to a mission objective?

Her 1 and 3 are ok, but boring. If you build for max duration/strength the upkeep of both abilities is acceptable. You don't really need range at all.
The only thing I really like on this frame is the passive. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Sahansral

[Colyeses]

36 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

but neglect the fact that to actually kill enemies consistently with it, you need to make use of his CC, the passive damage boost that gives, and the damage buffs of Overcharger, and for armoured enemies you need his strip from Bastille to break them back to just Health

I've been playing a crapton of Vauban and I am pretty damn confident in just Flechette by itself. It already CCs targets hit by making them stagger, remember?

Besides, you can dump multiple Flechettes in one spot to make a primo meat grinder.

The issue with Protea...

37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

he's an all-round hybrid, with CC, Debuffs, Team Support and personal Survivability

Is that she is terrible at literally all of these, boasting clunkier application and far worse results.

[Annnoth]

54 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That's kind of why I put in that last part of the comment? The final part that you quoted?

And then, after describing her Dispensary, I also followed with this:

Because no, not all weapons can do that, and she isn't entirely about ability damage. Buffing her damage, or giving it scaling, would be kind of pointless because she's an all-round hybrid, with CC, Debuffs, Team Support and personal Survivability that makes her usable everywhere, but not a dedicated damage frame.

In every single star-chart mission, that turret is strong enough. Heck, up to Sortie, or even Rank 5 Lich, I can see that turret being useful. There's no need to buff it for any of the content we're actually going to be doing.

She just doesn't have the scaling that lets her go beyond that on abilities alone, you absolutely should combine what she does with weapons for greater effect. And that's not a bad thing, that's how she's designed.

If her turret scaled, or her Shrapnel Mines scaled, then literally what would be the point of scaling enemies?

People are looking at Vauban and are so amazed that Flechette Orb (yes, and Photon Strike) has a mechanical enemy level based scaling function, but neglect the fact that to actually kill enemies consistently with it, you need to make use of his CC, the passive damage boost that gives, and the damage buffs of Overcharger, and for armoured enemies you need his strip from Bastille to break them back to just Health. You combo all his abilities to even make Flechette Orb relevant because of its slow and random fire rate and its limited placement function.

If something with a massively high fire rate, and self-buffing without needing to combo the abilities (beyond three prior casts to make it have 100% extra Strength), also scaled with enemy level? There's no combo there, there's no build-up, and there's definitely no accounting for needing to remove enemy defense either.

There's a fine line to walk between powerful and over-powered, and giving her turret scaling is stepping over that.

Note I never stated i wanted it straight buffed. I find the way its mechanics work to be honestly a bit lame where my first 7 shots are just there to keep an enemy distracted for 3 seconds and then the last 2-3 do noticable damage against a small handful of enemies (but you are right, they are effective number wise on max level lich missions). Duration is primarily good on her for the sole purpose that it allows those turrets to even reach that damage potential instead of letting it be good for longer. I guess you could give her points for a unique way of scaling her damage.

What i personally want is an ability that feels consistent. Where im not hoping the big shots get used on what I want and one that contributed to each enemies relatively equally and if it happens to line up with hitting the same enemy multiple times it can carry some single target weight like it does now. Maybe what Im asking for is a pipe dream, I dunno. Im enjoying the turrets but the combo mechanic making everything ride on those last few shots is something im not big on.

Ill be honest, I touched vauban once since his rework and thought the fletchets were awful in the 20 seconds i used them until people found out they were good and kept saying it. I have no bias in that form lol. 

Also i think shrapenl grenades is fine. Im focusing exclusively on her turrets.

And ill admit, protea is a very different mindset from almost any other warframe so I might still be expecting things out of her that werent intended despite using her the moment the update hit.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Annnoth

[Steel_Rook]

This isn't entirely on-topic, but I want to say it anyway: I personally believe that Warframes really shouldn't have damage-dealing abilities unless they're Exalted Weapons. Not only is that what weapons are for, Warframe's current design very heavily de-emphasises the effectiveness of ability damage. Unless abilities scale to enemy level somehow, they generally aren't that useful - especially not against high-level enemies.

[Colyeses]

1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

I personally believe that Warframes really shouldn't have damage-dealing abilities unless

… unless DE gets over this paralysing fear of having an ability deal damage.

Seriously, if it doesn't wipe an entire damn cell, they can go buckwild because there's always a weapon option that does it better, but it's like they give every single damage ability that isn't as downright broken as Mesa's ult or Saryn's Miasma/Spores the crappiest damage potential in the entire game.

There's no reason Ember's Fireball cannot compete in any way with a Tonkor. None. But their absolute terror of having abilities do damage just shuts down a massive amount of design opportunities. As long as they can't get over themselves, we won't ever have a properly designed damage caster frame.

[snowroporo]

3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

… unless DE gets over this paralysing fear of having an ability deal damage.

Seriously, if it doesn't wipe an entire damn cell, they can go buckwild because there's always a weapon option that does it better, but it's like they give every single damage ability that isn't as downright broken as Mesa's ult or Saryn's Miasma/Spores the crappiest damage potential in the entire game.

There's no reason Ember's Fireball cannot compete in any way with a Tonkor. None. But their absolute terror of having abilities do damage just shuts down a massive amount of design opportunities. As long as they can't get over themselves, we won't ever have a properly designed damage caster frame.

Just this DE please

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

There's no reason Ember's Fireball cannot compete in any way with a Tonkor. None. But their absolute terror of having abilities do damage just shuts down a massive amount of design opportunities. As long as they can't get over themselves, we won't ever have a properly designed damage caster frame.

Oh, there's a reason - the same reason I believe damage-dealing abilities just don't work in general. You mention Mesa's Regulartors, but you have to remember - the Regulators are not an "ability." They're weapons. Triggered by an ability, yes, but you're still using a secondary weapon. Crucially, that means you can mod it using weapon mods, and THAT is the big difference. Weapon base damage is broadly comparable to ability base damage. However, due to mods, crits and multiplicative damage buff scaling, you can easily buff a weapon's damage by 100 to 200 times. A 20-damage auto-rifle can hit for 1000-2000 damage per shot easily. Now contrast this with ability damage. Abilities deal fairly low base damage multiplied by ability strength. 130% ability strength (i.e. Intensify) gives you a measly 30% bonus damage.

The above puts abilities in a bind. You have VERY limited opportunity to increase their damage, so there are really only three options. You can jack up ability base damage to make it competitive at level 80, but this comes at the cost of making it MASSIVE OVERKILL at level 40, let alone at the start of the game. This is where Nova's Antimatter Drop and Saryn's Infection live. Alternately, you can set ability damage low to ensure it plays well at low levels, but this makes it pointlessly weak at high levels. This is where Atlas' Landslide and Ember's Fireball live. Alternately, you can try and scale ability damage to enemy level somehow. Maybe build it off damage received, or scale based off enemy level, or off enemy HP, etc. This is where Grendel's Feast and Octavia's Mallet live. However, note that in almost all cases, modding for ability damage doesn't even enter into the equation. And that right there is the issue.

The reason I say that damage-dealing abilities rarely work is that the amount by which they need to scale in order to match enemy EHP creep is MASSIVE. By contrast, abilities which buff, debuff, control or offer other utility can scale in much lower numbers and still be viable. An ability which deals 1000 damage will wipe out most enemies in the 1-10 range, but do barely anything to a level 100 Bombard with 50K health and Lord knows how much armour. By contrast, a stun which lasts for 10 seconds could jump up to as little as 20 seconds and gain quite significant power. A damage bonus going from 20% to 60% with power strength is still meaningfull better. An AoE health drain which goes from 10 meters radius to 20 meters radius - that's a major increase. An ability which goes from dealing 200 damage per hit 400 damage per hit... Well, that was hardly worth the mods.

Unless DE do something MASSIVELY INTRUSIVE, weapons are always going to be better at killing things than abilities, with a few notable exceptions where the abilities themselves are balanced for high-level play. It's the nature of the weapon modding system. As such, I believe that abilities work better when they're not trying to compete with weapons for the job that weapons generally do better.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, Colyeses said:

There's no reason Ember's Fireball cannot compete in any way with a Tonkor. None.

I'd say that Rook's right on this one.

The greatest strength of Abilities is not in their raw numbers, it's in their mechanical methods.

The numbers do not, and should never, matter with these.

So let Ember's fireball be weak, it has reliable functions like its status, its increase in Immolation gain to allow her to cast more Fire Blasts at full strength, and its play into her Passive that gives her increased Power Strength (which would not happen if she was one-shotting the enemies with the ability) for when she casts her 4. Combining her abilities is how Ember plays now, and I for one really enjoy it.

[Colyeses]

4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So let Ember's fireball be weak, it has reliable functions like its status

Even for that you're better off using a weapon, especially after the status rework.

18 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Maybe build it off damage received, or scale based off enemy level, or off enemy HP, etc.

Well, Vauban's Flechette seemed like an excellent test drive for a new ability damage scaling calculation, but they aren't working it into old abilities and they didn't put it into Protea's kit.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Even for that you're better off using a weapon, especially after the status rework.

Unless your weapon is built for Viral/Slash, so you can't combo any Heat damage in there with your weapon... Because it allows you to deliberately pick that on-meta status weapon and still have the option to combo Ember's abilities with the rest of her kit?

Both my and Rooks argument is that you should be using weapons and abilities together, and saying 'you do that with a weapon' is not countering our point.

Abilities for mechanical effects, weapons for damage.

As long as the mechanics work, then the ability's damage numbers can be as low as DE likes.

I mean, it's not like we're saying Frost's 1 is strong, it's not, because the mechanical delivery of its effects is bad, and the mechanical effect as a result is objectively worse than the same effect when generated in a massive radius by his 4. Frost is a great example of a frame with a first ability that doesn't have a successful base mechanic, nor a successful resulting mechanic, which is why people are on these Forums asking for a rework to him saying that his 1 is only good for popping his Snow Globe after a bad cast.

Similar to his 2, un-augmented. It's a damage cone-of-effect. Great? There's nothing about it, without the Augment, that warrants its use over his 4. And nothing about it that even counts towards his kit.

Those two abilities are examples of abilities that don't work because neither fulfils their purpose better than the other abilities in his kit do, and neither has a reason to cast it outside of those base purposes without a band-aid augment slapped on.

If you'd started with Frost instead of Ember, is what I'm saying, you might have had more ammunition in this discussion ^^

[Colyeses]

34 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Both my and Rooks argument is that you should be using weapons and abilities together, and saying 'you do that with a weapon' is not countering our point.

However, doing so will massively slow you down, and if that is supposed to be the saving grace, then the ability itself has almost no identity. It's just a heat proc in that case, which mostly plays out in behind-the-scenes numberplay, and its effect isn't even that noticeable. It also still keeps the door to a caster warframe tightly locked, as long as we can keep avoiding the issue.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

However, doing so will massively slow you down, and if that is supposed to be the saving grace, then the ability itself has almost no identity. It's just a heat proc in that case, which mostly plays out in behind-the-scenes numberplay, and its effect isn't even that noticeable. It also still keeps the door to a caster warframe tightly locked, as long as we can keep avoiding the issue.

What you're getting into here is not a problem with abilities.

It's the base problem that DE have even recognised is a problem; they've let weapon damage creep run away, the enemies have no difficulty scaling, only numbers scaling, and if we're ever to have any balance in this game then the plan needs to include both massively nerfing us as players and the damage we output as well as introducing new AI, challenging enemies that use actual tactics with that AI, and more enemy types that actually negate what we do in varied and irritating ways that we have to build around.

You're not disproving the point about abilities and weapons in combination, you're highlighting the key issue in Warframe that there is no difficulty. That's a different conversation and I'm happy to have that one ^^

Caster frame play is all across the game, and doesn't need raw damage numbers to make it powerful. One of the most powerful, scaling and content-trivialising abilities in the game only does 500 damage, or less because Strength is a dump-stat on Loki.

The door isn't locked, but those are the mechanics that DE wants us to have on abilities. And if the mechanics are good enough then raw damage numbers aren't even needed.

[Colyeses]

8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What you're getting into here is not a problem with abilities.

It's the base problem that DE have even recognised is a problem; they've let weapon damage creep run away, the enemies have no difficulty scaling, only numbers scaling, and if we're ever to have any balance in this game then the plan needs to include both massively nerfing us as players and the damage we output as well as introducing new AI, challenging enemies that use actual tactics with that AI, and more enemy types that actually negate what we do in varied and irritating ways that we have to build around.

So basically, in the current state of the game, that IS an issue with abilities.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

So basically, in the current state of the game, that IS an issue with abilities.

No, it's the opposite. The abilities are fine, the weapons are overpowered, and the enemies are bass-ackwards stupid.

In a situation where all damage output was nerfed and enemies were intelligent/varied/inconvenient enough that level 100 was actually a challenge, these abilities would not struggle in any way. These abilities would be perfect.

And that's what people are constantly getting at, it's what DEPablo is getting at when he talks about nerfing the players, it's everything that's wrong with the game being that the damage has run away with itself and left the few, functionally balanced, parts of the game behind.

Trying to say that the balanced parts are the odd one out and need to be changed and become unbalanced is like pointing at the only kid in the pool that hasn't peed in it saying that they're weird.

[Colyeses]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The abilities are fine

I'd still argue that they're not, and that something like fireball would still not be fine even IF the entire game was somehow reworked into Destiny. Because even when you consider the whole 'this thing does nothing of its own, just buffs weapons and slightly enhances other abilities', there's still other abilities that do it so much better, like Rhino's Roar for example. 

It's also an identity conflict and wasted potential: If it's not supposed to do damage, why does it do any? Why not just have it apply a heat proc and nothing else? And if it IS supposed to do damage, why is it so badly hindered that it doesn't come off the ground? 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Trying to say that the balanced parts are the odd one out and need to be changed and become unbalanced is like pointing at the only kid in the pool that hasn't peed in it saying that they're weird.

Having an issue with fireball is more like a pool full of kids peeing in it and pointing out the one kid that's actually taking a dump in it. Sure, it doesn't fix everything else, but even if you fix the peeing, it's still sh...

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

even IF the entire game was somehow reworked into Destiny

Why would we want that rubbish?

13 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

there's still other abilities that do it so much better, like Rhino's Roar for example. 

And? Just because one frame does something better than another isn't a reason to say that the one that doesn't do it as well is bad, because it's not the individual abilities, it's how you use them together and combine effects with other abilities and weapons.

Which is kind of the point.

Rhino buffs direct damage output, he offers no mechanical advantage to this, especially because many of the weapons in game are really good at killing any single enemy already.

Ember doesn't do it as well, she does it differently, and the ability's functions as stated are actually achieved.

Unlike, as I pointed out, other frames. Which genuinely do not achieve what they're stated to do in any meaningful way, or the stated function is so limited that it simply cannot achieve the stated goal.

15 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Having an issue with fireball is more like a pool full of kids peeing in it and pointing out the one kid that's actually taking a dump in it. Sure, it doesn't fix everything else, but even if you fix the peeing, it's still sh...

Cute.

Except it isn't, because this entire discussion is based on you claiming that the ability is not doing something that other frames are doing. At no point have you claimed that the ability is doing something that is actively detrimental.

If the goal of the ability was 'mild damage, trigger passive, increase gains on other ability' and instead it 'missed damage, countered passive and caused other ability to be objectively worse' then it would be more like the little joke you made.

But it isn't, and so you're just trying to come up with a zinger for the sake of it.

[Colyeses]

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why would we want that rubbish?

Because Destiny is actually balanced and challenging and has a stronger core loop? I mean, everything suggested about nerfing players down and creating new challenge actually applies to how Destiny 2 works. 

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Rhino buffs direct damage output, he offers no mechanical advantage to this, especially because many of the weapons in game are really good at killing any single enemy already.

That's rich. Fireball's laughable damage boost from the heat proc is a good thing and the rest of the game just needs to be nerfed down, but Rhino's much more excessive damage boost is irrelevant because the rest of the game isn't nerfed down?

And what is this 'no mechanical advantage'? Fireball provides a weaker damage boost, against a limited number of targets. Roar provides a much stronger boost to Rhino and his allies, in disregard of what they are firing at.

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

At no point have you claimed that the ability is doing something that is actively detrimental.

You want a detriment? The ability costs energy and has a cast time. Long cast time, too, if you charge it. And in return, you get laughable damage and little else of value. I mean, you even mentioned how Frost's 4 does what his 1 does, but better, but don't make the same connection to Ember's Inferno?

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If the goal of the ability was 'mild damage, trigger passive, increase gains on other ability' and instead it 'missed damage, countered passive and caused other ability to be objectively worse' then it would be more like the little joke you made.

That's just throwing the goalpost across the room. We've moved from balance and general usability to 'does it do what it says on the tin?' for some reason, and we're no longer talking about things being broken. Okay then. Guess there isn't a single ability that's bad in Warframe. Even Vector Pad does what it says, after all.

[snowroporo]

With your logic saryn should have her spores be replaced with the same equivalent of fireball and it's damage should be a flat value with no damage scaling with no spread 

Edited June 16, 2020 by snowroporo

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Fireball's laughable damage boost from the heat proc is a good thing and the rest of the game just needs to be nerfed down

See? This here is why you're not getting it. Fireball isn't the thing that benefits from the heat proc, although it can get its boost by repeat casts within the timer, it's the rest of Ember that gets the mechanical boost from the heat proc.

For example, something Ember's 4 doesn't do is actually proc Heat to trigger her passive, the circling flames do not count as a Status and so do not buff her passive.

And this is endemic of the rest of your comment; a direct damage boost with no other functions, no other mechanics, is good, but limited. You can kill some enemies super dead, when those weapons could have done that already. But it doesn't make any of his other abilities kill enemies past a certain number. Meanwhile Ember's passive, her Immolation increase in gains, and the procs will allow Ember's other abilities to kill without a direct damage boost. Same modding for Strength will achieve more mechanical effects on Ember than on Rhino because Rhino doesn't have any ability interaction.

So if you don't get the concept, please check and try again.