Thoughts on primary Catchmoon (TREMOR grip specifically)

[Artekkor]

Let me begin by saying: that i really like the gun. I made the tremor variant (i think it was designed specifically to compliment catchmoon) with a status focus and it gets the job done.

But i think i need to adress certain... Concerns.

1. Why is it full-auto? the secondary variant wasn't as far as i can remember. But its not an issue by itself - full-auto shotguns are nothing new and are OK. However... The fairly decent fire rate conflicts with other questionable stats as follows:
2. Why is the recoil so high? I mean, yeah - sure - its TREMOR we are talking about. And its a shotgun (supposedly). High recoil is to be expected. But it creates a conflict with full-auto high fire rate from (1), where you are spraing and praying... And barely can hit S#&$, or at least it requires some nice effort to reliably hit your shots. I found that trigger discipline with semi-auto style shots makes the gun far more reliable. And then it continues...
3. Why is there such little ammo capacity? Even further conflict with high fire rate from (1) - spraying and praying ultimately ends up in one running out of ammo pretty quickly. And shotguns dont exactly do well with ammo restoration - their ammo pack are rare and barely restore anything to the catchmoon. I think i can't even restore a full RAMFLARE magazine with it (7 shots). This makes the trigger discipline / ammo transmutation HIGHLY advisible.
4. The damage is not as high than one would expect. Considering how infamous catchmoon was as a secondary - i was hoping for something... Special? Instead its rather... Moderate. Not a bad thing necesserily, but still...
5. Why are projectiles so small? They require direct hits, instead of - for example - Arco Plasmor with his corridor-covering gigantic projectile. Or how secondary catchmoon acted. How is this even a shotgun? Unless we are going for slug-like style here (which is what punch-through projectile seems to imply).

Conclusion: primary catchmoon - even with TREMOR grip - ends up being high fire rate, high recoil, high ammo consumption, low ammo capacity... Close-mid Range Assault Rifle?

IMHO primary tremor catchmoon needs some adjustments (still).

1. Full auto seems to be redundant and counter productive in this particular case. Semi fits this gun far more, even if one will have to spam it.
2. If we are staying full auto, then either fire rate should be slightly lowered to make the gun stable, or the recoil should be reduced just a tiny bit. For TREMOR specifically, that is. Because otherwise its just all over the place. Maybe... 10% reduction? And i must remind you - there is no "-recoil" mod for shotguns (excluding one for gliding).
3. Maybe projectiles shold be just a tiny bit bigger hitbox-wise. Just a little bit. 10-20% bigger.

 

[lukinu_u]

Getting full auto and higher fire rate at the cost off damage and recoil make the weapons a non-exact copy of the secondary version, which is good in my opinion.

The high recoil is a good thing to balance the weapon and you can always put recoil mods on. If you  don't like the auto fire, you can simply get the lower fire rate (I think it's around 3) and simply press once I guess.

[Artekkor]

Только что, lukinu_u сказал:

Getting full auto and higher fire rate at the cost off damage and recoil make the weapons a non-exact copy of the secondary version, which is good in my opinion.

The high recoil is a good thing to balance the weapon and you can always put recoil mods on. If you  don't like the auto fire, you can simply get the lower fire rate (I think it's around 3) and simply press once I guess.

I literally adressed that in the OP. Shotguns DO NOT have a -recoil mod. And i already use TREMOR - the lowest fire rate there is, and it still feels too high.
Unless i use a -fire rate mod, if one exists and its probably absolutely worthless anyway. Especially if it gives crit bonuses, since my particular gun is status-focused.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 3 minutes, Artekkor a dit :

I literally adressed that in the OP. Shotguns DO NOT have a -recoil mod. And i already use TREMOR - the lowest fire rate there is, and it still feels too high.
Unless i use a -fire rate mod, if one exists and its probably absolutely worthless anyway. Especially if it gives crit bonuses, since my particular gun is status-focused.

But anyways, if you just want a higher damage lower fire rate catchmoon, secondary is your best option.

[Artekkor]

1 минуту назад, lukinu_u сказал:

But anyways, if you just want a higher damage lower fire rate catchmoon, secondary is your best option.

I also adressed this mod too - it exists, but its out of the question since not only the bonus is too small, but its also sliding only. I do not intend to slide all over the place as i try to shoot a gun that requires direct hits with slow projectiles.

Secondary catchmoon is also of no interest to me. This is not a matter of prefference. This particular gun configuration makes no sense. Its' stats are in direct conflict with each other:
small, precision-requiring projecitles are undermined by unfortunate combination of high fire rate AND recoil which makes full-auto mode redundant.

Trigger discipline is a solution here for sure, but that's me applying my skills as a form of bandaid to a flawed gun. Not sure if this is how its supposed to be... the other 3 kitguns do not have these kinds of flaws.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

26 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

But anyways, if you just want a higher damage lower fire rate catchmoon, secondary is your best option.

That's a conditional mod with the stat not even closely comparing to Stabilizer or Steady Hands lol. That's so incredibly bad.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Wyrmius_Prime

[lukinu_u]

il y a 8 minutes, Artekkor a dit :

Trigger discipline is a solution here for sure, but that's me applying my skills as a form of bandaid to a flawed gun. Not sure if this is how its supposed to be... the other 3 kitguns do not have these kinds of flaws.

You're not applying your skill as a for of bandaid to a flawed gun, you are just using your skill as a way to exploit the full potential of a weapon that is hard to play but is stronger than average when mastered.
Would you say snipers in the game are flawed because are stronger than auto-aim beam but only if you aim properly ? Of course not, they just have a higher skill cap while also requiring more skill to be used properly.
 

il y a 11 minutes, Artekkor a dit :

This particular gun configuration makes no sense. Its' stats are in direct conflict with each other:
small, precision-requiring projecitles are undermined by unfortunate combination of high fire rate AND recoil which makes full-auto mode redundant.

Higher DPS at the cost of more difficulty to use efficiently totally make sense.

 

il y a 12 minutes, Wyrmius_Prime a dit :

That's a conditional mod with the stat not even closely comparing to Stabilizer or Steady Hands lol. That's so incredibly bad.

Compared to Stabilizer and Steady Hands, it's surely bad but it's your only option for shotgun so you can't comapre it to other weapons category. Would you say Serration is trash, simply because Condition Overload exist for melee ?

[Artekkor]

26 минут назад, lukinu_u сказал:

You're not applying your skill as a for of bandaid to a flawed gun, you are just using your skill as a way to exploit the full potential of a weapon that is hard to play but is stronger than average when mastered.
Would you say snipers in the game are flawed because are stronger than auto-aim beam but only if you aim properly ? Of course not, they just have a higher skill cap while also requiring more skill to be used properly.

That would be true... If i agreed that the gun is great DPS wise. But i'm still quiet unsure on that. Don't know... Maybe RJ enemies are just that much tankier than your average planet joe, but those level 80 crewship commanders REALLY do not want to die.

Or at the very least... It feels like other kitguns get the job done better.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Artekkor

[lukinu_u]

il y a 36 minutes, Artekkor a dit :

That would be true... If i agreed that the gun is great DPS wise. But i'm still quiet unsure on that. Don't know... Maybe RJ enemies are just that much tankier than your average planet joe, but those level 80 crewship commanders REALLY do not want to die.

Both at slower fire rate possible, secondary get a 538.2 dps while primary get a 618 dps, and other stats are identical.
Just this 14% increase is enough to give the primary Catchmoon a higher dps that its secondary counterpart, but it also get higher fire rate which mean faster status build up.

Secondary weapons have stronger crit and base damage mods but shotguns get access to Motus Setup and Hunter Munition, which make a big difference.

[Luciole77]

yeah...agree...seens a bad design for catchmoon. Very questionable.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

Compared to Stabilizer and Steady Hands, it's surely bad but it's your only option for shotgun so you can't comapre it to other weapons category. Would you say Serration is trash, simply because Condition Overload exist for melee ?

I wouldn't compare them in the first place. What I do think is that shotguns should have a basic recoil reduction mod.

[ZiIIion]

13 hours ago, Artekkor said:

 

1. The damage is not as high than one would expect. Considering how infamous catchmoon was as a secondary - i was hoping for something... Special? Instead its rather... Moderate. Not a bad thing necesserily, but still...
2. Why are projectiles so small? They require direct hits, instead of - for example - Arco Plasmor with his corridor-covering gigantic projectile. Or how secondary catchmoon acted. How is this even a shotgun? Unless we are going for slug-like style here (which is what punch-through projectile seems to imply).

 

 

The two biggest points I too have against the Catchmoon Primary, especially. 

Recoil, auto-fire, and ammo honestly are not really an issue if you know how to manage the weapon itself. The weapon's kick isn't bad once you've played around it and starting opting for bursts instead of holding down your left mouse. On your primary's down time, either swap weapons or use your melee, maybe even slap in Pax Charge to address your ammo consumption.

With that said, when you're comparing the Primary to the Secondary, the latter definitely's got a leg up in DPH, Mods, and usability with a chance to hit 100% Crit and +50% Status without Rivens on a weapon with innate punch-through that tags way more enemies than what any multi-shot can offer. That's literally low skill high reward compared to the Primary's high skill high reward.

Quote

You're not applying your skill as a for of bandaid to a flawed gun, you are just using your skill as a way to exploit the full potential of a weapon that is hard to play but is stronger than average when mastered.

Would you say snipers in the game are flawed because are stronger than auto-aim beam but only if you aim properly ? Of course not, they just have a higher skill cap while also requiring more skill to be used properly.

But that's not how it is? Besides, who in their right mind would take sniper rifles outside of Eidolon Hunts or Orb Mother fights? In a hoard shooter? You can be a crackshot with a Rubico Prime and you'd still be out-damaged by that Rhino over there with the Bramma on standard missions. Work smarter, not harder.

Anyway, back on topic.

Even if we're to argue that the Primary Kitgun has higher DPS in exchange for skill to use, there are far better weapons to use that both out-DPS/KPS the Catchmoon and is much easier to use and arguably easier to obtain (secondary notwithstanding). If you want DPS, the Catchmoon is not the way to go when the Kohm and Acceltra exist. Even the new Stahlta (from what I've seen) can give the Catchmoon a run for its money. All that standing and resource gathering just for this kind of payoff in the form of a lackluster Primary? All that work for what basically amounts to an underwhelming payoff that OP's pointing out? Might as well make a different Kitgun altogether. Once again - work smarter, not harder.

Also, Artekkor is right about another thing. As someone's who just forma'd his Catchmoon Primary, I can confidently say it's horrible against RJ, Sortie 3's, and Level 5 Kuva Lich enemies as it currently stands. Like dafuq, that's hella trash for a modular weapon of this day and age. That’s not right. Hate to imagine how it'll do in the upcoming Hard Mode.

Now, admittedly I currently don't have Primed Ravage and Primed Charge Shell, so I'll get back to you when I have them and see if these two mods will make a difference, unless you already have both mods on yours. I might also swap a mod out for Motus Setup and see how well that does.

Edited June 23, 2020 by R.O.G.U.E.

[Artekkor]

10 часов назад, R.O.G.U.E. сказал:

 

Now, admittedly I currently don't have Primed Ravage and Primed Charge Shell, so I'll get back to you when I have them and see if these two mods will make a difference, unless you already have both mods on yours. I might also swap a mod out for Motus Setup and see how well that does.

I think i need to clarify something just in case: mine primary Catchmoon is made with RAMFLARE - highest status chance, lowest critical.

The idea was that since the catchmoon's base damage consist entirely out of HEAT i decided to make a powerful enemy burner that procs heat couple of times and then i go home while procs finish the job. It also doesn't help that shotgun crit mods are the weakest among firearms.

It reaches something like 130% status chance with 90+60+60+60 mod setup (viral / heat, of course).
For the most part it works as i intended to be. But sometimes it just feels like im taking 1-2 shots more than i would hope for a given high-tier enemy. Its not critical, but underwhelming for sure.

And again i must point out that i DO NOT experience this with other kitguns.
Critical GAZE (also TREMOR) melts enemies just as i expected it to.
Critical TOMBFINGER (STEADYSLAM) reliably oneshots or two-shots high tier enemies with fully charged attacks.
Critical RATTLEGUTS (STEADYSLAM and SHREWD) take just the right amount of bullets i expect of them.

And yet status CATCHMOON takes just 1 projectile too many. (6 instead of 5, 7 instead of 6 and so on).
Which, by itself, wouldn't be an issue... If the gun didn't required so much effort to use.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Artekkor

[Krenlik]

On 2020-06-22 at 7:04 AM, Artekkor said:

 

Conclusion: primary catchmoon - even with TREMOR grip - ends up being high fire rate, high recoil, high ammo consumption, low ammo capacity... Close-mid Range Assault Rifle?

IMHO primary tremor catchmoon needs some adjustments (still).

1. Full auto seems to be redundant and counter productive in this particular case. Semi fits this gun far more, even if one will have to spam it.
2. If we are staying full auto, then either fire rate should be slightly lowered to make the gun stable, or the recoil should be reduced just a tiny bit. For TREMOR specifically, that is. Because otherwise its just all over the place. Maybe... 10% reduction? And i must remind you - there is no "-recoil" mod for shotguns (excluding one for gliding).
3. Maybe projectiles shold be just a tiny bit bigger hitbox-wise. Just a little bit. 10-20% bigger.

 

 

I used a Brash instead... -Recoil instead of ++Recoil.   Works pretty well, actually.  Have a capacity of 11, but a high reload speed.  Eventually need to get an ammo mutation mod on there because I DO run out of ammo.  🙂

The idea was to use it to soften up hard targets via Heat, then use an ability or flip to secondary for the filling.  Rarely bother the switch yet.. as I'm still relevelling the thing I'm not doing mega-grineer bombards or anything.