Arcane Pistoleer

[selig_fay]

This thing still doesn't work properly. On the other hand, I think headshot kill is too unpleasant a thing for this arcanes. This benefits ammo eaters, who generally do not have much damage, but have a high rate of fire. Can we replace this with another activation condition? Activation when killing - this would be good, but I think the best condition is Х consecutive hits without misses. Where X is the number for the balance. I think X should depend on firerate, so slow weapons will benefit from this too. But I would like X to be no more than 20. I would like it to encourage firerate more.

Video from tests:

 

[taiiat]

if you think the activation condition is too annoying for Pistoleer, that's good.
the effect of the Arcane is stupid powerful so it asking you simply to shoot something in the face is such a low, low bar for it to ask of the Player.

and in order to make your version work, the Arcane would need some overcomplicated backwards Formula to not be too powerful? i think you created your own problem there.

 

also Pistoleer already greatly benefits both high and low Fire Rate Weapons.

[selig_fay]

15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the effect of the Arcane is stupid powerful so it asking you simply to shoot something in the face is such a low, low bar for it to ask of the Player.

 

15 minutes ago, taiiat said:

also Pistoleer already greatly benefits both high and low Fire Rate Weapons.

The problem is that arcane says we should kill with headshots. But I can not hit the head once and still get activated. Another point, if the status kills the enemy, then I don't get activated at all. In fact, all of its power now is a bug where you kill an enemy with direct damage and get triggered. But if this gets a fix, I can't guarantee that this arcane will be useful. Many rapid-fire weapons don't even have good accuracy to make a headshot kill.

For example, in order for all Dex Pixia shots to hit the head, you must stand 5 meter away from the enemy. You stand further, you start to miss. This is about standard accuracy.

[SpringRocker]

On 2020-07-04 at 3:25 AM, taiiat said:

the effect of the Arcane is stupid powerful so it asking you simply to shoot something in the face is such a low

 

On 2020-07-04 at 3:38 AM, selig_fay said:

But I can not hit the head once and still get activated

They're saying that you can kill an enemy, without even grazing the head, and still have it proc.

By the way it's stated on the arcane, it's a bug. However you can stand there and shoot a Moa in the foot and it will still proc, headshots don't matter.

 

I still remember when I posted this bug in the bug sub-forum, but just like the 25-30 other bugs I've posted it was also ignored. I can't say I'm really surprised, unless there's 20 threads popping up in the wrong sections they're not taken seriously.

[selig_fay]

26 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

They're saying that you can kill an enemy, without even grazing the head, and still have it proc.

By the way it's stated on the arcane, it's a bug. However you can stand there and shoot a Moa in the foot and it will still proc, headshots don't matter.

 

I still remember when I posted this bug in the bug sub-forum, but just like the 25-30 other bugs I've posted it was also ignored. I can't say I'm really surprised, unless there's 20 threads popping up in the wrong sections they're not taken seriously.

At the moment, I am afraid of the consequences after a fix that makes arcane unsuitable for status, rapid-fire, and / or low-precision weapons. I understand that many will hate me, but I think it would be much better if it worked as a dual toxicist with an old 6 second duration. That would be perfect.

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

They're saying that you can kill an enemy, without even grazing the head, and still have it proc.

mkay. they were definitely not clearly wording that to me.
if/when working correctly, it'll still be stupid powerful and asking you to click on a Head being a small price for its power.

9 hours ago, selig_fay said:

At the moment, I am afraid of the consequences after a fix that makes arcane unsuitable for status, rapid-fire, and / or low-precision weapons.

unless your Status Weapon is literally built to be "i deal no Damage except for if i happen to apply a DoT" - that's just largely a bad Weapon in the first place. i don't think Equipment should be tuned around if a Player deliberately nerfs their own Weapon.
Rate of Fire has largely no impact on whether you shoot something in the face or not.
even if a Weapon has mediocre Accuracy, there's lots of Enemies, just keep spraying at neck level and you'll catch someone pretty quickly.

[selig_fay]

4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

unless your Status Weapon is literally built to be "i deal no Damage except for if i happen to apply a DoT" - that's just largely a bad Weapon in the first place. i don't think Equipment should be tuned around if a Player deliberately nerfs their own Weapon.Rate of Fire has largely no impact on whether you shoot something in the face or not. even if a Weapon has mediocre Accuracy, there's lots of Enemies, just keep spraying at neck level and you'll catch someone pretty quickly.

So my nuckor, which is shown in the video above , is a bad weapon for you? 

 

[taiiat]

3 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

So my nuckor, which is shown in the video above , is a bad weapon for you? 

if your Nukor is Modded to purely rely on DoT's, then yes. since it's one of the top 3 Weapons in the game due to being able to apply debuffs with Status while simultaneously having podium contending raw DPS.

[selig_fay]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

if your Nukor is Modded to purely rely on DoT's, then yes. since it's one of the top 3 Weapons in the game due to being able to apply debuffs with Status while simultaneously having podium contending raw DPS.

This DPS comes from the fire prock. Yes, I have crit mods, but the main focus is on fire. The main damage really doesn't matter when firerock reaches a large DPS in a couple of seconds. And this is what will prevent me from activating arcane.

Do you use this arcane yourself? No, I understand that you can have your own opinion about how strong it is and not use it, but, have you tried arcane precision? A lighter prock always guarantees a 2-fold increase in DPS. I mean, I'd like to put them all up, but I only have 1 slot. On the other hand, if arcane has the expected result, even if it lasts 4 seconds or something like that, then I can do more DPS with the firerate build than with the crit build. You know, the fire rate is not popular because ammo are a problem. Isn't ammo efficiency supposed to solve exactly this problem? I mean, if I can kill quickly in the head, then I hardly need this arcane.

This is what I'm talking about, it's strong, but prock doesn't match what kind of problem this arcane should solve. First of all it is ammo eaters like Dual Cestra. Now try to kill in the head with this thing. I mean, Yes, it's a bad weapon, but isn't it a way to improve it? 

[taiiat]

14 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Do you use this arcane yourself?

but, have you tried arcane precision? A lighter prock always guarantees a 2-fold increase in DPS.

You know, the fire rate is not popular because ammo are a problem. Isn't ammo efficiency supposed to solve exactly this problem? I mean, if I can kill quickly in the head, then I hardly need this arcane.

but prock doesn't match what kind of problem this arcane should solve. First of all it is ammo eaters like Dual Cestra. Now try to kill in the head with this thing. I mean, Yes, it's a bad weapon, but isn't it a way to improve it? 

nope, i don't really like Pistoleer myself. not my style. still stupid powerful, though.

Precision is alright, though it only works on Secondary Weapons, and Weapons that are highly favorable for Pistoleer get similar or higher DPS increases from their Rate of Fire or uptime boost than what Precision offers even if we remove the Weapon Category restriction.

Killing Enemy(ies) quickly is a factor of time, not number of Shots consumed. something that has a Damage to Fire Rate Ratio that isn't in the double digits can still Kill Enemies quickly.

your expectation is just in the wrong place. Cestra not needing to Reload would always be a nominal benefit for it, it already has a large Magazine, therefore it's no surprise that an Arcane about increasing uptime won't benefit it that much.
you're trying to pair Weapons that already have what Pistoleer offers intrinsically built into them, and thusly they get mediocre benefit from it. just like if a Weapon say, had a fast Reload, adding Reload Speed to it is unexciting because it was already good at the thing you tried to improve.

[selig_fay]

38 minutes ago, taiiat said:

your expectation is just in the wrong place. Cestra not needing to Reload would always be a nominal benefit for it, it already has a large Magazine, therefore it's no surprise that an Arcane about increasing uptime won't benefit it that much.
you're trying to pair Weapons that already have what Pistoleer offers intrinsically built into them, and thusly they get mediocre benefit from it. just like if a Weapon say, had a fast Reload, adding Reload Speed to it is unexciting because it was already good at the thing you tried to improve.

Yes, the store is big, but it fires very quickly. 10 seconds. Maybe less. This is certainly not grakatas, where you reload more than shoot, but even so. Grakata has a good mod now on the effectiveness of ammo, by the way.

No, I agree, maybe it will not be so bad, but I would like to see some indulgence for rapid-fire weapons. Let's say 30% of the shots should hit the head before the kill. Just the last shot in the head seems unfair to me for some weapons. And if they can do a headshot kill for status, then I really can’t imagine how it will work for fire, because fire damages 1 tick, adding both body shots and head shots. Although, I do not mind if this is such a mechanic.

[taiiat]

47 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

And if they can do a headshot kill for status, then I really can’t imagine how it will work for fire, because fire damages 1 tick, adding both body shots and head shots. Although, I do not mind if this is such a mechanic.

since you bring it up, i would not be against DoT's that are applied from a Headshot (and thusly getting the Damage benefits of so) being treated as if they were a Headshot, since they did hit the Head to begin with.

[GREF_TM]

On 2020-07-04 at 8:25 PM, taiiat said:

the effect of the Arcane is stupid powerful

Yet i can't remember a single good secondary, aside from that one meme pyrana setup (which i'm not even sure if it's actually good), that would benefit more from pistoleer than it would from far easier to proc and maintain arcane precision. Can you give some examples?

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Yet i can't remember a single good secondary, aside from that one meme pyrana setup (which i'm not even sure if it's actually good), that would benefit more from pistoleer than it would from far easier to proc and maintain arcane precision. Can you give some examples?

spoiler: the effect of Pistoleer works on all Weapons.

[selig_fay]

58 minutes ago, taiiat said:

spoiler: the effect of Pistoleer works on all Weapons.

Well, it looks like you have to take a strong secondary weapon to implement a weak primary weapon. At the same time, you need a mod for swapspeed, because time is important. But this is really shamanism only for fun gameplay which doesn't make sense because it assumes that you have a strong secondary weapon initially and you can use it without a primary.

I understand the reasons to wear a weak but fast status gun for corrosion+ice and virus+fire, then switch to a strong weapon and make a savory shot. But dancing with the Arcane Pistoleer and the primary weapon I don't understand. It works even worse with archwing weapons.

In fact, I see it only for the Titania minigun so far, because Dex Pixia is strong by default and does a lot of damage for headshot kill. But this is if we talk about small levels where you spend more bullets in dead bodies than on living enemies. If we talk about high levels, such as 200, it really makes little sense, because with arcane precision, I will kill faster and the battery recharge time will not infuriate as much as slow killing. 

Now the armor was nerf, I didn't climb high. Maybe Pistoleer will work well. We need to check on hard mode when it is available. But I have a bad feeling about this. No, I'm not saying it's not strong. Convenient killing of small levels is also a niche in its own way. But you know, personally, I want more.

You know, headshot kill is a good trigger when it comes to sniper rifles. And I think people wouldn't mind having an arcane for nucking mobs through headshot kill, like Ivara does. I mean, it would be useless for most, but it's fun.

[GREF_TM]

10 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Well, it looks like you have to take a strong secondary weapon to implement a weak primary weapon.

If it gives primaries 100% efficiency too, you can do silly stuff like firing 30+ ktonkor grenades (base RoF 3.67 per second) without reloading, or just holding LMB for ~10 seconds with acceltra. Just off the top of my head, there most certainly are a lot of other silly interactions i can't think about.

And the best part, you can run it with precision/rage/etc.

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

And the best part, you can run it with precision/rage/etc.

I do not have an infinite number of slots for arcane. In most cases, either energyze or guardian takes the place, because protection or ability can be more important. But, even if I have 2 free slots, I can come up with a stronger combination. 

2 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

If it gives primaries 100% efficiency too, you can do silly stuff like firing 30+ ktonkor grenades (base RoF 3.67 per second) without reloading, or just holding LMB for ~10 seconds with acceltra. Just off the top of my head, there most certainly are a lot of other silly interactions i can't think about.

I already wrote that killing small levels is a good niche. But the higher the level of mobs, the more you begin to feel the lack of DPS and the more you think that reloading is the lesser of your problems.

The only problem with ammo is felt with ammo eaters. At small levels, you will put a mutator and you will not feel a problem. At higher levels, your ammo will run out anyway, because the Pistoleer is not refreshable during action. And again, if Pistoleer gets a fix, I think it will create an even bigger problem.

I mean, the effect is strong. But the prock condition makes it very niche.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Scourge secondary fire