Stances-Sovereign outcast vs Gemini Cross??

[_Euphoria_]

Every single build I see online uses sovereign outcast with Kronen Prime, but I feel like gemini cross is doing more damage... so can someone enlighten me why SO is more preferable than Gemini Cross?

[Yoshimon1]

I don't play tonfas often, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but just from looking at the two stances, I'd guess it's because SO's basic combo is shorter, faster and has 4 guaranteed slash procs.

[Gravalite]

theres one of the combos on SO that does a spin move which hits a bunch of times which is really useful for building combo fast and proccing all sorts of status. and i think theres another combo where if you do just the first attack of the you throw them in front of you and they spin and hit enemies a lot of times which is also really good for the same reasons i already stated but I could be wrong since I don't use tonfas all that often, it's just what I've noticed.

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, _Euphoria_ said:

Every single build I see online uses sovereign outcast with Kronen Prime, but I feel like gemini cross is doing more damage... so can someone enlighten me why SO is more preferable than Gemini Cross?

Your feels are wrooooong, which is why you don't rely on them except for fun. The TTK and damage on outcast is Malicious Raptor level and the competition aren't any kind of competition at all.

[TheArcSet]

TLDR:  Cross has a bit more damage, the higher action to hit ratio and more bleed procs.

The reason it isn't used as much, partly player preference and feel, partly because it's a uncommon, rather than rare stance and few people actually look up what stances do, partly the base polarity of cetain weapons and partly the fact that DE didn't share the stats for the new universal combo system, so it took player a lot of experimenting to document it's current form.

End of the day play what feels best to you.

 

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Gemini_Cross

1. (500% in 5 hits & 1 impact, 500% in 5 hits & bleed, 100% in 5 hits, 200%, 500% in 2 hits & bleed impact and knockdown) Total 1800% in 18 hits(in 5) with 300% bleed.
2. (100%, 100%, 200% & imapct) Total 400% in 3 hits(in 3). +025% slash-damage
3. (700% in 4 hits, 200%, 200%, 200%) Total 1300% in 7 hits(in 4).
4. (200% in 4 hits & impact, 600% in 6 hits & knockdown & slam & bleed) Total 800% in 10 hits(in 2) with 100% bleed.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sovereign_Outcast

1. (300% in 5 hits & impact, 300% & impact, 200% in 4 hits & bleed, 300% in 2 hits & knockdown) Total 1300% in 12 hits(in 4) with 200% bleed.
2. (100%, 100% in 2 hits, 100% in 6 hits & spin& impact) Total 300% in 9 hits(in 3) with a spin. +025% slash-damage
3. (100% in 4 hits & impact, 300%, 200% in 2 hits & impact, 300% in 2 hits & knockdown & slam) Total 900 in 9 hits (in 4).
4. (400%, 500% in 2 hits & knockdown & ragdoll) Total 900% in 3 hits(in 2) with ragdoll.

 

So, it really depends on which combos you do, your weapon speed and your weapons natural bleed chance.

Combo wise:

Cross   : 18/5, 3/3, 7/4, 10/2.

Outcast: 12/4, 9/3, 9/4, 3/2.

Damage-wise:

Cross   : 1800%, 400% 1300%, 800%.

Outcast: 1300%, 300%,  900%, 900%

Forced Bleed-wise:

Cross1   : 100% on 2nd and 200% on 5th.

Cross4   : 100% on 2nd.

Outcast1: 200% on 3rd.

 

End of the day, if you like the weapon enough to forma it, play which ever feels best for you.

Mathematically:

Cross has the best hit to moves rations (though speed has a high impact there) and the most total and front-ended stance bleeding.

But none of that matters if you prefer the feel of one to the other, or just spam heavy for the 2x250% & Bleed & knockdown.

[TheArcSet]

1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

Your feels are wrooooong, which is why you don't rely on them except for fun. The TTK and damage on outcast is Malicious Raptor level and the competition aren't any kind of competition at all.

As I've explained above, in all cases, if a full combo doesn't kill an enemy part way through:

Each of Cross's combos will deal more damage, Except in the case of the shield mash, which will deal 1/9th less damage, but with 3.5x combo gain and a forced bleed proc.

Combo-gain-wise Cross wins on it's  1st & 4th, Outcast wins on it's 2nd & 3rd, neither of which have bleed; though speed can greatly skew the move to hit ratios.

 

Bottom line:

Cross has more damage, combo and procs, but this isn't a weapon class where one stance has massively better bonus than the other and it depends which combos you use.

 

But as I've also said, all that is less important than how the stance feels to you.

[_Euphoria_]

42 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Gemini_Cross

1. (500% in 5 hits & 1 impact, 500% in 5 hits & bleed, 100% in 5 hits, 200%, 500% in 2 hits & bleed impact and knockdown) Total 1800% in 18 hits(in 5) with 300% bleed.
2. (100%, 100%, 200% & imapct) Total 400% in 3 hits(in 3). +025% slash-damage
3. (700% in 4 hits, 200%, 200%, 200%) Total 1300% in 7 hits(in 4).
4. (200% in 4 hits & impact, 600% in 6 hits & knockdown & slam & bleed) Total 800% in 10 hits(in 2) with 100% bleed.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sovereign_Outcast

1. (300% in 5 hits & impact, 300% & impact, 200% in 4 hits & bleed, 300% in 2 hits & knockdown) Total 1300% in 12 hits(in 4) with 200% bleed.
2. (100%, 100% in 2 hits, 100% in 6 hits & spin& impact) Total 300% in 9 hits(in 3) with a spin. +025% slash-damage
3. (100% in 4 hits & impact, 300%, 200% in 2 hits & impact, 300% in 2 hits & knockdown & slam) Total 900 in 9 hits (in 4).
4. (400%, 500% in 2 hits & knockdown & ragdoll) Total 900% in 3 hits(in 2) with ragdoll.

 

So, it really depends on which combos you do, your weapon speed and your weapons natural bleed chance.

Combo wise:

Cross   : 18/5, 3/3, 7/4, 10/2.

Outcast: 12/4, 9/3, 9/4, 3/2.

Forced Bleed-wise:

Cross1   : 100% on 2nd and 200% on 5th.

Cross4   : 100% on 2nd.

Outcast1: 200% on 3rd.

 

End of the day, if you like the weapon enough to forma, play which ever feels best for you.

Mathematically:

Cross has the best hit to moves rations (though speed and has a high impact there) and the most total and front-ended stance bleeding.

But none of that matters if you prefer the feel of one to the other, or just spam heavy for the 2x250% & Bleed & knockdown.

Wow great answer. Thanks!

[TheArcSet]

13 minutes ago, _Euphoria_ said:

Wow great answer. Thanks!

🙂 Thanks, I hope it helps.

TBH I formed my Telos_Boltace to use outcast without looking into it 1st, trusting some youtube advice that might be outdated; so I felt rather sill afterwards.

[CernunianStag]

Personally, I find the damage of Gemini Cross ok, but it really locks you in place compared to the insane range that Sovereign Outcast provides

And Villain Rule (SO block forward combo) has insane range and aditionally, lets you feel like Kroenen from Hellboy 1

[TheArcSet]

6 minutes ago, CernunianStag said:

Personally, I find the damage of Gemini Cross ok, but it really locks you in place compared to the insane range that Sovereign Outcast provides

And Villain Rule (SO block forward combo) has insane range and aditionally, lets you feel like Kroenen from Hellboy 1

A good point, min-maxing damage isn't everything and especially with melee, is rarely needed.

[-Kittens-]

1 hour ago, TheArcSet said:

As I've explained above, in all cases, if a full combo doesn't kill an enemy part way through:

Each of Cross's combos will deal more damage, Except in the case of the shield mash, which will deal 1/9th less damage, but with 3.5x combo gain and a forced bleed proc.

Combo-gain-wise Cross wins on it's  1st & 4th, Outcast wins on it's 2nd & 3rd, neither of which have bleed; though speed can greatly skew the move to hit ratios.

 

Bottom line:

Cross has more damage, combo and procs, but this isn't a weapon class where one stance has massively better bonus than the other and it depends which combos you use.

 

But as I've also said, all that is less important than how the stance feels to you.

What matters at the end of the day in fun, what matters for effectiveness is TTK, and the TTK on Outcast is about 60% faster, even when having to chain two combos to match the damage per time of Cross. P much the same for MR with Claws, sure the other stances have fancy multipliers at the end of chains, but MRs auto status enforcement combined with initial hit speed means by the time you gotten that output with Riders or Vermilion, the MR user is two tiles way and everything in between is dead.

[CernunianStag]

hace 10 minutos, TheArcSet dijo:

A good point, min-maxing damage isn't everything and especially with melee, is rarely needed.

Also tonfas were seriously buffed with melee 2.9999, their problems before were that the range was really small for the type of weapon

Like, I am using a not fully formaed Kronen Prime and it still melts anything, and it's a joy to play

[IceColdHawk]

Sovereign Outcast is faster and does headshots with the normal e spam combo. Gemini Cross has a good mobility combo though. Simulacrum testings resulted in enemies dying much faster using Sovereign Outcast.

[TheArcSet]

19 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Sovereign Outcast is faster and does headshots with the normal e spam combo. Gemini Cross has a good mobility combo though. Simulacrum testings resulted in enemies dying much faster using Sovereign Outcast.

good to know, things like whether it'll headshot certain units are hard to account for, especially with the stupid corpus helmets; I pretty sure DE forgot about that when the made the shield update.