Got A Bow. Helped Clarify A Basic Frustration...

[[DE]Momaw]

A while back I got the blueprints to build Dread and now I got an opening to print it out and start using it.  It's a very intersting weapon. Nice change of pace. I know it doesn't do armor ignoring damage so I have to aim, but aiming is fun right? I like to aim and pull off accurate shots. Makes me feel like a space ninja.

 

The thing is, my first few experiences with it underscored and helped me to see and quantify a basic frustration I have with the game. Basically: This game has no place for finesse. Due to the way the game's scaling works, a maxed out player can basically faceroll through any battle below level 100ish. Guns scale somewhere between 500% and 800% once you stack on all the bonuses for damage and multi-projectiles, which means enemies simply evaporate in front of the expanding wall of bullets that accompanies the players.  Which leaves me, with a bow, that I have to aim accurately, desperately trying to kill ANYTHING before it's lulzed into tiny pieces by people with Somas. The only pace supported is fully automatic. Which is a shame because the developers have obviously put time into the enemy AI. It will try to use cover, and flank and lay ambushes and all that clever stuff they should do, but none of it matters when their life expectancy on player contact is less than a second.

 

Compounding this is the fact that the game doesn't scale in any way for solo play. Yeah the game is more challenging solo. Challenging here meaning "complete BS". When enemies aren't swarming by the dozens, they're using completely ridiculous abilities that shut a single player down in an instant. Hey, let's have a unit that can teleport you! Without having line of sight! And let's make sure that they can do it over and over and over, completely invalidating the concepts of "playing cautiously" or "using cover". Meh.

 

So basically either I use a full auto weapon and join the DPS lulzbrigade, or I use a frame with strong AOE attacks, or I am a second class citizen and a weight on the team. The view that's sort of crystallizing here is that Warframe does not really encourage tactical play or finesse.

 

Discuss. :-/

[AlchemistMute]

..The cold hard truth, right there.

[tomhrio]

Yup what you said is true.

You could build the bow for multishot/fire/thunderbolt and that would make it less frustrating to use, eliminating the need to aim it. But it doesn't make your argument any less true.

[Widgit]

No it actually doesn't. You're right. If you gotta use a bow, use Paris Prime. Expect to be outdpsed regardless . Bows are a niche weapon. They get the job done, albeit slowly, and they fill the role of a certain playstyle. If you can't enjoy it with the current zerg/AOE/dps meta , I would suggest the "can't beat em join em" approach.

[SatouHiraga]

As a person who uses only the dread I can say its pretty easy to rack up the highest kill count and damage % in a speed run with it while in a party and as for solo playing i again dont really run into much trouble, pick off enemies and slowly move back ( or forward if you can) and since they swarm pretty often in higher content choke points or self made ones will become your best friend. Play smart and you wont run into many problems even with all the heavies running around.

[Baconweaver]

This game is not built upon the painful truths, but on the beautiful lies of how it is played.

[shut]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I remember back when I first joined and everyone on Mercury and Venus was just a cute little newbie like me rather than some maxed-out person farming Stalker. Gameplay seemed so balanced back then; our mods were scarce, so the weapons we used filled the niches they were intended to use without any issue at all. Weapons felt balanced among each other, and I liked that feel immensely.

 

It's a shame that DE seems to be more focused on players' demands of increasing DPS needs for weapons these days, causing several weapons to be direct upgrades to others, even those in entirely different niches. A particularly disappointing example of this is that I simply can't see the Latron, Gorgon, or Supra doing something that the Soma can't do-- which is a danger sign for the game, since Latron and the machineguns are polar opposites in niche, yet the Soma beats both in everything.

Edited October 18, 2013 by SortaRandom

[Blatantfool]

 The pace is Warframe right now is odd.

 

 On one hand, you've got a game that gives of the outward appearance of being very, very fast. And many people choose to play it as such. Flips, slides, shotguns and a suicide sprint playstyle.

 

 On the other, you've got straggling little bits of the game that all seem to move so much slower. The enemies aren't very good at handling anything moving particularly quickly and certain weapons really don't like being used on the run. Not to mention that, over time, changes to the speed players move have been made and shortly reverted or changed.

 

 

 It goes back and forth all the time.

 

 

 Out of curiosity - what would you do to fix this little weirdness with the bow?

 

 I ask you, how would you make the Bow fit the faster pace the players normally adopt?

[AlchemistMute]

Out of curiosity - what would you do to fix this little weirdness with the bow?

 

 I ask you, how would you make the Bow fit the faster pace the players normally adopt?

I think there's no way to fix it, other than bringing a secondary that is able to fit the faster pace, and pulling out your bow when you need DPH. The bow for heavies and the secondary for mooks.

[Skynin]

 The pace is Warframe right now is odd.

 

 On one hand, you've got a game that gives of the outward appearance of being very, very fast. And many people choose to play it as such. Flips, slides, shotguns and a suicide sprint playstyle.

 

 On the other, you've got straggling little bits of the game that all seem to move so much slower. The enemies aren't very good at handling anything moving particularly quickly and certain weapons really don't like being used on the run. Not to mention that, over time, changes to the speed players move have been made and shortly reverted or changed.

 

 

 It goes back and forth all the time.

 

 

 Out of curiosity - what would you do to fix this little weirdness with the bow?

 

 I ask you, how would you make the Bow fit the faster pace the players normally adopt?

Interesting vision.

At first, i will increase sniper ammo drop rate. Just to make game with bow a bit more comfortable.

And some special mods like Thunderbolt. My brain is sleeping now, but i can give some ideas later.

[Naftal]

You should do higher level content. The weapons that deal high damage with slow attack speed obviously aren't good compared to fast weapons on levels where a few shots from them kills an enemy.

[Siq6Six]

Maybe it's not the bow which needs to adapt, but the play style. It's been said many times on this forum and I hate to repeat it, but group up with friends. PUGs are a pain. You usually get 1 or 2 who just want to run it as fast as possible and often ignore enemies. Or you get the other extreme who go searching for loot/get lost. Find a few who want to move slow with you, otherwise I'm afraid your stuck. Personally, I like playing lower/medium lvl stuff and leveling up new weapons & frames, for the same reasons SortaRandom mentioned of "when everyone was on Mercury". You don't have to feel inadequate because you don't have the "magic" combo of weapon, frame and mods. You can enjoy different play styles.

[Bryy]

- Put on a maxed Reload speed AND Fire rate mod.

- Face-roll Grineer with a semi-auto bow.

[BETAOPTICS]

For now this is a very valid concern. In the future though as Armor 2.0 and Damage 2.0 gets implemented as well as later down the line, stealth 2.0 should help making them more valuable again.

[Blatantfool]

I think there's no way to fix it, other than bringing a secondary that is able to fit the faster pace, and pulling out your bow when you need DPH. The bow for heavies and the secondary for mooks.

 

 At the risk of sounding incredibly lame - which I tend to do quite a bit.

 

 It is my belief that no gun is ever truly FUBAR. There is always a way to fix it. It could very well require doing something pretty drastic to the way it works - but it can always be fixed.

 

Interesting vision.

At first, i will increase sniper ammo drop rate. Just to make game with bow a bit more comfortable.

And some special mods like Thunderbolt. My brain is sleeping now, but i can give some ideas later.

 

 Could very well be a good start. I have mused at a friend of mine who plays about turning the bow into a weapon type that is all about the variety of 'alternate ammunition mods'

 

 Give its arrows with a larger variety of effects with mods, some of them even allowing for it to do pretty new things. 

 

 You could roll up all the Crossbow and Bow weapons into that sort of thing. It'd be cool to have a weapon option where the weapon itself is incredibly flexible with different mod types.

[gekigarion]

 The pace is Warframe right now is odd.

 

 On one hand, you've got a game that gives of the outward appearance of being very, very fast. And many people choose to play it as such. Flips, slides, shotguns and a suicide sprint playstyle.

 

 On the other, you've got straggling little bits of the game that all seem to move so much slower. The enemies aren't very good at handling anything moving particularly quickly and certain weapons really don't like being used on the run. Not to mention that, over time, changes to the speed players move have been made and shortly reverted or changed.

 

 

 It goes back and forth all the time.

 

 

 Out of curiosity - what would you do to fix this little weirdness with the bow?

 

 I ask you, how would you make the Bow fit the faster pace the players normally adopt?

 

Going back to the point of the OP, I believe the issue is not with the bow but with the scaling of the damage in the game.

 

1) It ruins all of the dev's hard work on the enemy's AI by making it not matter (Since there is no point in the enemy having a brain if it dies before it can move a muscle)

 

2) It discourages players from any sort of playstyle that takes time and technique to execute ("finesse", as the OP calls it).  Slow weapons such as the bow and pretty much every melee weapon in the game would fit into this category.

 

While it is true that you can just fix the bow, there will still be a much larger problem present in the game.

 

Edit: edited out a redundant point.

Edited October 18, 2013 by gekigarion

[Ishki88]

Maybe match-making can pair people up by their weaponry builds.  And I mean only for bow players.  So a bow player won't enter a game with 3 Rhinos who all have Ogris.

[tomhrio]

 Out of curiosity - what would you do to fix this little weirdness with the bow?

 

 I ask you, how would you make the Bow fit the faster pace the players normally adopt?

 

Eliminate charge mechanics for bows, innate puncture, a slight "seeking" effect, higher crit rate, some chance for ragdoll (knockdown) 100% stagger on all enemies.

[AlchemistMute]

Eliminate charge mechanics for bows, innate puncture, a slight "seeking" effect, higher crit rate, some chance for ragdoll (knockdown) 100% stagger on all enemies.

Isn't that a bit insane? You're suggesting that arrows puncture, home in, rapid fire, ragdoll, stagger and have a high crit. rate? Does that even make sense for bows? Pretty sure most bows wouldn't be able to easily puncture blocks of metal, nor do they home in, and if they're fired at such a high velocity then you're basically suggesting we turn the Paris into an overpowered Boltor.

 

...

[Madotsuki]

And this is why i solo primarily despite the obscene spawn rates of enemies (i have to stick to below level 30 for casual play due to this). I usually enjoy using precision weapons over rifles. I enjoy the challenge of lining up that headshot and watching my enemies' heads explode into red mist from a few clean precise shots instead of just lulzing things with a spray-and-pray wall of bullets. I like projectile weapons for the same reason of skill.

 

However, as Warframe goes right now, there is no way you're gonna get any good number of kills with precision because the Soma/Strun Wraith users can insta-gib anything and everything by pointing in their general direction. Throw in stuff like Nova and you can just go grab a cup of coffee while your team facerolls the map with the press of a button.

 

That CAN be solved if Armor 2.0 makes it so that weakspots like heads NEVER have armor scaling, making precision increasingly viable compared to spraying at higher levels (there's still AP, but that's another story i guess). Either way, if you want to use bows and other precision weapons currently, you'll just have to play solo so the mainstream people won't disintegrate everything before you get to pull back the bowstring.

[CloudPies]

It's a shame that DE seems to be more focused on players' demands of increasing DPS needs for weapons these days, causing several weapons to be direct upgrades to others, even those in entirely different niches.

I don't think anybody asked for soma or swraith. Most people are against power creep, and want side grades instead of upgrades. Not sure where that statement came from...

Bows are odd on this game because most of the tiles are close range... you're not more than 20 meters away from an enemy, a 'sniper' weapon would obviously be inferior to rapid fire guns. Although when you think about it, when you have a rocket launcher, why would you pick a bow? That weapon was obviously made to satisfy the demand of some players.

[Fenrok]

 The pace is Warframe right now is odd.

 

 On one hand, you've got a game that gives of the outward appearance of being very, very fast. And many people choose to play it as such. Flips, slides, shotguns and a suicide sprint playstyle.

 

 On the other, you've got straggling little bits of the game that all seem to move so much slower. The enemies aren't very good at handling anything moving particularly quickly and certain weapons really don't like being used on the run. Not to mention that, over time, changes to the speed players move have been made and shortly reverted or changed.

 

 

 It goes back and forth all the time.

 

 

 Out of curiosity - what would you do to fix this little weirdness with the bow?

 

 I ask you, how would you make the Bow fit the faster pace the players normally adopt?

If I were tasked with re-balancing bows, I would start with making the non-charge usage viable. More damage and/or higher rate of fire and remove the dropoff. They don't have to have the DPS of other weapons, but it needs to be close enough to be considered a competent alternative.

 

Next, I would simply make the thunderbolt mod not suck or perhaps even incorporate it into the charged attack and have it not even be a mod. It should both scale with the modded dmg of the bow and activate 100% of the time. The AoE could also be made to scale with hits to weak spots to promote good aim. At the VERY least, It should be no less effective than the ogris. Also, I would consider changing thunderbolt from a radial blast to a chain lightning to further differentiate it from ogirs (and for a host of other reasons I don't feel like listing).

[Skynin]

 At the risk of sounding incredibly lame - which I tend to do quite a bit.

 

 It is my belief that no gun is ever truly FUBAR. There is always a way to fix it. It could very well require doing something pretty drastic to the way it works - but it can always be fixed.

 

 

 Could very well be a good start. I have mused at a friend of mine who plays about turning the bow into a weapon type that is all about the variety of 'alternate ammunition mods'

 

 Give its arrows with a larger variety of effects with mods, some of them even allowing for it to do pretty new things. 

 

 You could roll up all the Crossbow and Bow weapons into that sort of thing. It'd be cool to have a weapon option where the weapon itself is incredibly flexible with different mod types.

Sounds good. I mean, semi-auto crossbow could be competitive (more damage per shot than assault rifles/machine guns/energy weapons, high critical chance (which some low-firerate weapons supposed to have by default), armor piercing and some special effects maybe). Important thing: it shouldn't be OP. Some people complaining just because they want only OP things to have.

Another issue - Tempo. This game is very fast, player should adapt to this. My main warframe is Volt, and i find it very fun to run around at the super speed with bow!

Edited October 18, 2013 by Skynin

[Krysis_V]

That's the sad truth we have to face for us bow lovers. The best you can currently get is the Paris Prime. My current build involves Thunderbolt. Yes, Hammershot is probably going to give me higher damage on a single damage, but blowing things up is fun! If shred works as advertise on bows, we might actually get a bow which is good with multiple targets.

[TisEric]

agree - also something that has plagued this game for years.

 

@blatant ~

 

i would make all bows ignore shields.

normal attacks are now charged attacks , you have to hold it to fire at all so no more of that shoot 0 velocity arrows that ignore armor.

charged a attacks will now scale, so basically you hold the attack button to charge for 0.2 seconds for a regular attack, then you hold it for longer to increase the charge  up to 3 times.

 

Bow mods will now alter the charge attack itself. 

 

thunderbolt - upon a x1 x2 x3 charge you gain higher area of effect to the explosion. at X3 charge 100% chance to explode.

 

windfury - charge attacks now cause a gust of force to be released behind the impact of the arrows, knocks down enemies behind the impact.

charge levels increase the range of the effect.

 

Spear - charge attacks now ragdoll enemies hit. charge levels increase number of enemies that can get ragdolled. so x3 will ragdoll 4 enemies if they all stand behind each other.

 

Netbag - charge attacks now root enemies in place. charge  levels increase the duration and at max charge will root  adjacent enemies.

 

 

stuff like that.

 

 

it wont compete with the true zerg style of play but it will give the bow a niche in battle.