Beam Weapons, Stat issues, Glitches, Balance, Beam Chaining...

[Velitria]

The Beam Weapon category has quite a few issues with stats, balance, and glitches. This Topic suggests options for what to do and how the category could be better. 

Note: Some glitches or issues are not specific to only the Beam weapon category.

 

Ammo Regeneration₁ ,depending on the weapon, has often been an issue because they are based on a constant rate and reload speed mods only decrease delay. I propose that Regeneration times shown in the HUD like the 1.0 Reload should mean that as soon as the weapon stops firing, it will begin regenerating the Magazine Capacity over that duration. Currently, the Cycron Regenerates a set 40 ammo over 1 second after a 1 second delay to reload which is in reality 2 seconds total, but if you increase the Magazine Capacity, by double, the reload would take 3 seconds since it is confined to 40 ammo regeneration a second.

Chaining Potential₂  I think that all forms of Chain potential should be removed from all weapons and be added as Exilus mods. I propose two new mods, the first adds chain targets up +1 to +5 (base length of 2m to chain), and the second mod increases chain lengths by +2m to +8m. These two mods would be Beam weapon Exclusive and with the introduction of beam range increasing mods as Exilus, the player would have to choose between more beam range, more chain length, or more chain targets for the Exilus slot. The total combo would require 3 mod slots and limit options as a balance mechanic of it because there is only 1 Exilus slot. There should also be an equivalent set for Primary Beam weapons.

This is the Kuva Nukor compared to Cycron, Atomos, and Nukor. The Kuva Nukor unequipped base damage is 21 without any Lich element bonus and 33 with a 57% Lich bonus. The Cycron special mechanic is Ammo Regeneration₁. This is a unique passive and may be a reason for the gun to have weaker stats out of compensation. However, when comparing to the Kuva Nukor, it has significantly worse critical stats, status stats, no Chaining Potential₂, and significantly less base damage/DPS. A Unique passive shouldn't make something worse in every single area. I propose the Cycron have its' multishot increased to 2 and status increased to 60% (multishot does not add more status to beam weapons anyways, so it is purely a damage bonus). I think returning it's magazine back to its' original 60 might be too much of a buff unless the unique passive is going to be ignored in relation to stats.

The Atomos has Chaining Potential₂ of 3 enemies with 7m length and a main beam range of 15m. Once again I think Chaining being mods would solve many disparity issues. However, since the Cycron already does the high status beam weapon type, I think the Atomos should have its' Critical Chance increased to 35% with a 2.7x multiplier, and have Status Chance reduced to 16%.

The Regular Nukor does not possess Chaining, and if the Chain mods are decided not to be added, the Kuva Nukor should not gain chaining unless the base Nukor is given, based on theme of weapon. I understand Kuva weapons are supposed to have better stats in most every area, but chaining should not be part of that.

Range increasing mods for beam weapons are not considered Exilus compatible, even though Projectile Flight Speed mods are, they have the same effect. This showed to me that Beam weapons were overlooked and I searched for more issues with the category... The Basmu also does not receive any beam weapon type mods, however Panthera does. Panthera has an alt fire, like the Basmu, and is a beam weapon which means it was overlooked. Since I know there is an issue with the category as a whole, I went through the trouble of figuring out issues and have created a list of options to solve the problems. Basmu Alt fire is a beam weapon with 9m of range (this feels terrible and I would suggest it be at least 15-20m). The Kuva Nukor which is the closest in stats to the Basmu alt fire is a great comparison. However, the Basmu has roughly 10-50% less damage (Lich bonus) and the 2 multishot at 30% status chance is similar to 60% vs 50% Status of Kuva Nukor. Though that may be "debatable" if better, its' Critical chance is 2% vs 7% and 4.8x multiplier vs 5.0x. All of that seems fine except that Kuva Nukor as 29m of range and 9m of chain distance to 4 enemies. While the Basmu has 9m of range and 7m of chain distance to 5 enemies. From much testing, I have come to find that 20-25m of initial beam range looks and feels like it should be the general standard. Primary Beam weapons should be roughly 30-50m depending on the shape of the weapon. Quanta being 50m makes sense based on the type of beam and shape of weapon. I think that Ruinous Extension (Secondary Beam Range Mod) should be +10m instead of +8, and Sinister Reach (Primary Beam Range Mod) should be +15 or +20 instead of +12. Combustion Beam should also have an equivalent for Secondary Beam weapons as well. I don't think a single person in all of Warframe would dislike it if Archguns were classed as primary weapons for modding. Two reasons: 1, your atmospheric loadout mirrors your space loadout and causes you to have to change it each time you want to use either or for a mission. 2, there are more primary mods for more customization, and they are better. Also... many warframe buffs do not apply to archguns because they only apply to weapons in your loadout. Take Volt's 1 augment of 100% added electric damage... it does absolutely nothing to archguns. There are many other warframe abilities that have that issue as well, not just the elemental augments.

The Panthera Prime Alt fire should also have Fire Rate base increased to at least 10 as a beam weapon (remember old quanta) and reduce the damage to 30, a 50% increase in dps that will make it at least an option compared to the primary fire which is just better in every way.

 

 

 

Fan Concept side note:

Though I do not have any pictures for such a thing, I would like to propose a concept for a Beam Primary weapon(not an archgun). I just thought this would be an interesting concept.

Passive: While held, movement speed reduced by 30%(Heavy weapon, lacking an antigrav mag). Infinite Ammo Max. Magazine controls Critical Chance, Status Chance, and Critical Multiplier. Will Regenerate Magazine while firing.

Creates Twin Beams that lightly lock onto two enemies near the aim location similar to Larkspur's lock-on, or both on one if only a single enemy is present (would make it impossible to hit weakpoints on bosses).

Without modding Fire Rate, the weapon would regenerate 5 Ammo a second while Firing 10 Ammo a second, creating a 5 ammo/second drain to the passive.

Accuracy: 100.0

Critical Chance: 0-100%

Critical Multiplier: 1.0-3.0x

Fire Rate: 10.0

Magazine: 100

Ammo Max: INFINITE

Multishot: 2.0

Noise: ALARMING

Reload: 20.0

Status: 0-100%

Trigger: HELD

Beam Range: 40

Damage: 15

Total: 30

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iron4695]

23 hours ago, Velitria said:

Combustion Beam should also have an equivalent for Secondary Beam weapons as well.

The basmu secondary fire isn't classed as a beam weapon when it looks something like the Nukor. It should have it's own version of Combustion Beam will be great as again, it is technically a beam, not bullets so it doesn't make any sense that it doesn't have a version.

23 hours ago, Velitria said:

The Regular Nukor does not possess Chaining, and if the Chain mods are decided not to be added, the Kuva Nukor should not gain chaining unless the base Nukor is given, based on theme of weapon. I understand Kuva weapons are supposed to have better stats in most every area, but chaining should not be part of that.

I really agree, if the Kuva Nukor has chaining potential then the normal Nukor should? Well I would like to see either both of them have chaining potential or none of them. The DPS of the Kuva Nukor goes up each time it chains by A LOT and having no chaining would, personally, balance the weapon as it has high critical damage and fire rate and a DPS of about 500 base, and with the base 5.0x critical damage with a 7.0% base critical chance and 50% base status chance, and with every 14 hits, you are guaranteed a critical chance which is about every 1.4 seconds you deal about 2500 base hit base from the critical hit alone OR if you have Arcane Avenger proc'd, it will multiply your damage by 5 and a potential hit of about 12.5k. That is with no mods, and with mods in the absolute best case scenario, you could deal over a million DPS, and that is the ABSOLUTE best case scenario and if that chains, that is mass destruction. The status chance is also very high, with 2 dual stat mods going to 110%. This is very high and reducing the status from 50% to 35% will balance the status chance and not have easy 100% status chance. The normal Nukor with 2 dual stat mods give about 64% status chance. That status change is optional, or it could easily tackle it with removing chaining from the Kuva Nukor.

23 hours ago, Velitria said:

Fan Concept side note:

Though I do not have any pictures for such a thing, I would like to propose a concept for a Beam Primary weapon(not an archgun). I just thought this would be an interesting concept.

Passive: While held, movement speed reduced by 30%(Heavy weapon, lacking an antigrav mag). Infinite Ammo Max. Magazine controls Critical Chance, Status Chance, and Critical Multiplier. Will Regenerate Magazine while firing.

Creates Twin Beams that lightly lock onto two enemies near the aim location similar to Larkspur's lock-on, or both on one if only a single enemy is present (would make it impossible to hit weakpoints on bosses).

Without modding Fire Rate, the weapon would regenerate 5 Ammo a second while Firing 10 Ammo a second, creating a 5 ammo/second drain to the passive.

Accuracy: 100.0

Critical Chance: 0-100%

Critical Multiplier: 1.0-3.0x

Fire Rate: 10.0

Magazine: 100

Ammo Max: INFINITE

Multishot: 2.0

Noise: ALARMING

Reload: 20.0

Status: 0-100%

Trigger: HELD

Beam Range: 40

Damage: 15

Total: 30

I really like this concept of a heavy weapon that isn't an archwing gun. It is different from what is in the game and the concept of the magazine determining damage output (status chance, critical chance and such) which I like. It encourages people not to eat up the magazine and would switch the gameplay up as everyone will eat the magazine and forcing a burst method to be used than holding the fire button. With the reload speed of 5 ammo per second base is good as it also encourages people not to fire it all. With base fire rate I like that the weapon regenerates 5 ammo a second while firing 10 ammo a second is different but a very nice concept to have. The reduced movement speed balances it very well as it is a heavy weapon which should slow you down.

- The ammo regeneration I have no idea on how to put it as I have never used the cycron, so I am leaving that out as I will get everything wrong.

[ChaoticEdge]

52 minutes ago, Iron4695 said:

- The ammo regeneration I have no idea on how to put it as I have never used the cycron, so I am leaving that out as I will get everything wrong.
 

Oh that I remember it well, well think of it the small brother of the Flux Rifle that is about it.  Pretty much it recharges pretty fast but not fast as the kitguns which they charge a lot better then then corpus's tech laser gun for the only gun made good pass was actually fulimus or whatever it is called that wisp's signature rifle cannon (it is correct when you have catch moon or arca plasmor  it is consider as plasma cannon as it is not a shotgun by details)  for it is still an assault and cannon or assault rifle fuse by a shotgun put it short.

Anyway it seems that weird thing about them is that you can't make them any further faster reload of them for I tried many temps to make them even faster reload but the ammo generated is 1 of each number by remembering on the kit gun how slow that recharges.

[Velitria]

On 2020-08-05 at 6:45 PM, Iron4695 said:

I really like this concept of a heavy weapon that isn't an archwing gun. It is different from what is in the game and the concept of the magazine determining damage output (status chance, critical chance and such) which I like. It encourages people not to eat up the magazine and would switch the gameplay up as everyone will eat the magazine and forcing a burst method to be used than holding the fire button. With the reload speed of 5 ammo per second base is good as it also encourages people not to fire it all. With base fire rate I like that the weapon regenerates 5 ammo a second while firing 10 ammo a second is different but a very nice concept to have. The reduced movement speed balances it very well as it is a heavy weapon which should slow you down.

I'm glad you like the concept, it was quite fun to come up with the balance for it since it has such high potential to be good and bad, depending on who uses the weapon, and with what frame bonuses.

[bronzebonobo]

On 2020-08-05 at 4:58 PM, Velitria said:

Chaining Potential₂  I think that all forms of Chain potential should be removed from all weapons and be added as Exilus mods

So basically what you are saying is you want the only guns left in the game that can even compete (they don't) with melee, to just not be a thing at all anymore, unless you install it in an exilus, I don't understand, the logic behind this is weird, you want to put a feature that already exists on certain beam weapons and move it to the exilus slot, why should DE waste time doing this though? 

I could sort of understand if you wanted them to nerf it and remove it entirely (not a good idea.)

[Velitria]

On 2020-08-19 at 10:25 PM, bronzebonobo said:

So basically what you are saying is you want the only guns left in the game that can even compete (they don't) with melee, to just not be a thing at all anymore, unless you install it in an exilus, I don't understand, the logic behind this is weird, you want to put a feature that already exists on certain beam weapons and move it to the exilus slot, why should DE waste time doing this though? 

I could sort of understand if you wanted them to nerf it and remove it entirely (not a good idea.)

It was to allow chaining be an option for all beam weapons in the game including secondary weapons. If anything it is a nerf to the kuva nukor and a buff to every other beam weapon (including atomos since the mods at max are better than its' current chains). Not to mention the range increasing mod for beam weapons would be exilus which is part of why I made this in the first place because DE just overlooked beam weapons big time in relation to mods. I complained about Basmu, Cycron, Atomos, Nukor, and Kuva Nukor. Those aren't the only ones that have issues, I wanted DE to fix the glitches and oversights. I also suggested range increasing mods get removed from melee so they aren't just all better than guns. Why is redeemer good? Because it's a gun that uses melee mods.

[bronzebonobo]

5 hours ago, Velitria said:

It was to allow chaining be an option for all beam weapons in the game including secondary weapons. If anything it is a nerf to the kuva nukor and a buff to every other beam weapon (including atomos since the mods at max are better than its' current chains). Not to mention the range increasing mod for beam weapons would be exilus which is part of why I made this in the first place because DE just overlooked beam weapons big time in relation to mods. I complained about Basmu, Cycron, Atomos, Nukor, and Kuva Nukor. Those aren't the only ones that have issues, I wanted DE to fix the glitches and oversights. I also suggested range increasing mods get removed from melee so they aren't just all better than guns. Why is redeemer good? Because it's a gun that uses melee mods.

I could definitely get behind every beam chaining if they gave every beam that ability, I don't like throwing nerfs on things, especially guns since they are piss poor compared to melee weapons, but that is a good idea nonetheless, if they gave away chaining for free and allowed the range increase mods for beams to be in the exilus, it would be a step in the right direction, of course you will have your top contender beams still doing the thing but at least a lot of them would be usable. 

[Velitria]

Would be nice if DE noticed this without it being in the bug reports section.