The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[dwqrf]

To all the people complaning about Roar : Rhino will still be used by the majority of player between mr 0 and 15. After mr 15, people will still use rhino situationnaly for his iron skin or his huge control. Period.

[selig_fay]

10 minutes ago, linn4you said:

if the difficulty drops even further, it will be backtracking and time sonsuming mr farming

The only difficult place on steel path is solo interceptions, because you are not physically able to keep track of 3 towers without a powerful CC. And this system will become easier for those frames that don't have a powerful CC, such as Chroma. For the rest... Inaros is available on MR5. Lesion is available on MR9. That's it, you easily passed 95% of the steel path thanks to this bundle. The remaining 5% are bosses that you can easily pass with a certain weapon, with the exception of Zealoid Prelate, because this boss is very fat and you really need +1 person to charge the Lantern. This is literally all that steel path has. Of course, you can go for 100 Eidolon, but it is not included in the steel path. And I just laugh in face at archwing missions that got a big nerf, thus depriving me of any hope of checking my archwing gear.

[linn4you]

vor 1 Minute schrieb selig_fay:

The only difficult place on steel path is solo interceptions, because you are not physically able to keep track of 3 towers without a powerful CC. And this system will become easier for those frames that don't have a powerful CC, such as Chroma. For the rest... Inaros is available on MR5. Lesion is available on MR9. That's it, you easily passed 95% of the steel path thanks to this bundle. The remaining 5% are bosses that you can easily pass with a certain weapon, with the exception of Zealoid Prelate, because this boss is very fat and you really need +1 person to charge the Lantern. This is literally all that steel path has. Of course, you can go for 100 Eidolon, but it is not included in the steel path. And I just laugh in my face at archwing missions that got a big nerf, thus depriving me of any hope of checking my archwing gear.

i don´t know why we even argue and discuss it, it´s just another reason escpecially for veterans like us to get Nightmare Path
and thats what i asked for in the first place
I mean, DE can change the difiiculty of the regular SP sure, but what about all those ppl who are just doing it or are half way trough?
personally i want a Nightmare mode, you 2 i guess, so whats the problem? 🙂

[CopperBezel]

2 hours ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

It's the exact same thing with Roar.

Roar being transferable is absolutely not okay, for 3 reasons:

Roar is incongruent to how most frames's kits are designed and balanced, and having it be transferable violates how the ability itself is balanced. Roar allows any given frame to unconditionally double their damage output if built even somewhat properly. On Rhino, this is fine, because his other 3 abilities are all utility and not typically used for damage (except Stomp which has some application as a trash clear). Conversely, many frames are presumably balanced around the fact that they do NOT have access to an unconditional damage increase unless provided to them by a teammate. Assigning Roar arbitrarily, however, breaks this basic design principle.

Roar is heads, tails, leaps, and bounds better than pretty much any ability on this list. Except for the special cases (already a symptom of terrible design) where you can't transfer Roar, is there really any frame in the game that would choose some okay-but-not-astounding CC or utility over the ability to just flat-out deal more damage and presumably directly contribute to clearing a mission faster?

Making Roar transferable will more or less render Rhino himself irrelevant. Yes, Iron Skin and Stomp are nice, but I'm pretty sure Rhino's main utility and his contribution to any given mission objective is his ability to drastically boost the damage output of his entire team including himself, and that function can now be lifted from him and assigned to another frame which will then not only be able to do his job, but whatever job they already natively do.

Roar is literally a role-defining talent which has no place being transferable freely at all let alone being on the same list of options as things like Airburst or friggin' Shock.

This isn't my argument, someone else wrote this and described my thoughts perfectly.

Those are the three arguments a person could feasibly make, yes. 

As has been discussed at length, the first argument is very weak. Doubling your total damage requires building for Strength, and the pool of frames that can reasonably do that is bigger than Rhino alone, but it's not unlimited. Again, Shock Trooper, Smite Infusion, and Fireball Frenzy can double your damage with the same strength build, and Saryn has one of each, her own private Roar in addition to the option of Venom Dose. Wisp and Nova have debuffs that double damage vulnerability to whole crowds, one of which is donatable. Roar is the most versatile because it amplifies your existing damage instead of adding another type, but it's not uniquely powerful. Being able to put Roar, or Shock Trooper for that matter, on any frame of your choice does give CC and support frames more options, but so does this entire system. (It's very weird that the person who wrote this up included Shock as a counterexample, incidentally, considering its only actual use is as a squad damage boost that can double damage output on a Strength build. Airburst is a valid example of a trash transferrable power, of course.)

The second argument really just overlooks why people main other frames. I'm looking forward to Molt and Breach Surge more than Roar, and Roar isn't even the only one of these abilities capable of doubling damage output with the right build, a build that's incompatible with most CC-oriented frames, frames that outright require high efficiency like Khora and Mesa, etc. (A Mesa's Roar will never be as good as a Rhino's.) Roar did surprise me the most with its inclusion, and I expected Rhino would only provide Charge, but I was biting my nails to see if I'd guessed right that Molt and Breach Surge would be the ones included for those two. It's obviously top tier, but it's not unequivocally the best option on the list or something. 

The third argument is the closest to true. Roar is often Rhino's whole damn thing in high level play. Again, I don't think we want a system where we can trade off Reservoirs or Peacemaker. But that really speaks to Rhino being an old and limited frame. I don't think there's any reason in the current meta for his 4 to be weaker than Nezha's equivalent and I think more could be done with his 1. This calls back to the first of the three arguments, but I don't think the intention is for Rhino's kit to be generally weak to make up for Roar. Of all of the other damage boost abilities in the game, Roar is the most direct without any caveats or limitations, but it really isn't uniquely powerful, as has been demonstrated with real numbers. Not every frame is a Mesa or Wisp who has one unique and powerful ability to which everything else is an accessory; a Nezha or Ember or Saryn or Khora has a full set of abilities in which no one ability is the defining one for how that frame plays. I don't think Rhino is meant to be a one-trick pony either. So again, maybe Roar isn't the problem here.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, linn4you said:

i don´t know why we even argue and discuss it, it´s just another reason escpecially for veterans like us to get Nightmare Path

and thats what i asked for in the first place
I mean, DE can change the difiiculty of the regular SP sure, but what about all those ppl who are just doing it or are half way trough?
personally i want a Nightmare mode, you 2 i guess, so whats the problem? 🙂

I don't like the nightmare mode. This, like sortie, is just a set of conditions, most of which can be ignored. If the nightmare mode was really a nightmare, say, a dark map where a wave of mobs could come at you at any moment and from all the cracks, including minor dark areas in the walls and you basically don't have the ability to hide and keep the mobs at a distance, and your melee strikes can be blocked stunning you and special mobs, like nullifiers, can at any time leave you without CC, where mad greneer can go to your back, knockback you and start beating you for 5% of your health, until you die or someone does damage to it, that would be interesting. On the other hand, an increase in the level is an increase in HP. Yes, it is a little more interesting when mobs do not die with 1 shot, but still they are still not capable of much.

[linn4you]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

I don't like the nightmare mode. This, like sortie, is just a set of conditions, most of which can be ignored. If the nightmare mode was really a nightmare, say, a dark map where a wave of mobs could come at you at any moment and from all the cracks, including minor dark areas in the walls and you basically don't have the ability to hide and keep the mobs at a distance, and your melee strikes can be blocked stunning you and special mobs, like nullifiers, can at any time leave you without CC, where mad greneer can go to your back, knockback you and start beating you for 5% of your health, until you die or someone does damage to it, that would be interesting. On the other hand, an increase in the level is an increase in HP. Yes, it is a little more interesting when mobs do not die with 1 shot, but still they are still not capable of much.

i really like that, i made suggestions myself, but we probably won´t get it or even a Nightmare mode 😞
we may have a chance for increased difficulty, because we get the ultimate easymode update with the helminth chrysalis system, but that doesn´t mean that i give up, a reason to bring my equip and my own skills to the limit, which i farmed and aquired over years, is a dream, i assume many tenno have
EDIT: and we can at least ask for it right?

 

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, linn4you said:

i really like that, i made suggestions myself, but we probably won´t get it or even a Nightmare mode

😞
we may have a chance for increased difficulty, because we get the ultimate easymode update with the helminth chrysalis system, but that doesn´t mean that i give up, a reason to bring my equip and my own skills to the limit, which i farmed and aquired over years, is a dream, i assume many tenno have

I don't think that Helmith has anything to do with the difficulty of the game. On the other hand, they have already stated that DE will try to work in the field of AI, and this is the first step to the emergence of interesting enemies. And I think the glass enemies of the night wave are also a step in that direction. So in the future, things may change radically to the point that people will stop calling Roar the most useful ability.

[dwqrf]

il y a 14 minutes, CopperBezel a dit :

Shock Trooper, Smite Infusion, and Fireball Frenzy can double your damage with the same strength build, and Saryn has one of each, her own private Roar in addition to the option of Venom Dose.

But, if i'm not mistaken, Roar boost every damage, including spell damage, while smite infusion and other equivalent only boost weapons as additionnal %elementary mods.

The only equivalent of Rhino Roar is Nourisk Strike, I think ; boosting Overall damage by a percentage ; difference is that the boost of Nourish strike is added toxin damage.

[CopperBezel]

This is true, all of those others are limited to weapon damage, so a Protea, Ember, or Khora who's dealing damage primarily through abilities benefits from Roar but not the others.

[dwqrf]

il y a 1 minute, CopperBezel a dit :

This is true, all of those others are limited to weapon damage, so a Protea, Ember, or Khora who's dealing damage primarily through abilities benefits from Roar but not the others.

That's the big question I have and didn't test myself. Will Frost, Ember, and Volt are able to change their spell element with Nourish Strike, tranforming it into Viral, Gas, and Corrosive ?

[linn4you]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

I don't think that Helmith has anything to do with the difficulty of the game. On the other hand, they have already stated that DE will try to work in the field of AI, and this is the first step to the emergence of interesting enemies. And I think the glass enemies of the night wave are also a step in that direction. So in the future, things may change radically to the point that people will stop calling Roar the most useful ability.

if you are able to put dmg buffs on every warframe the game gets easier, warcry will buff armor and attack speed speed on excal for example, steel path will be very easy and thats just 1 example, there will be many combinations that just melt whole rooms in seconds...
I hope youre right about the AI, i suggested mixed enemy groups with lichs etc spawn around you instead of bullet spongy enemys too, it would require more skill, but thats just my opinion, warframe is still more for casual gamers

i don´t get the whole Roar and Warcry discussion, just decrease it´s effect if it´s subsumed, Valk and Rhino won´t be useless and everyone else still gets a nice buff wihout debalancing the game too much...

[selig_fay]

13 minutes ago, linn4you said:

i don´t get the whole Roar and Warcry discussion, just decrease it´s effect if it´s subsumed, Valk and Rhino won´t be useless and everyone else still gets a nice buff wihout debalancing the game too much...

Do you want me to show you an Inaros that can Nuck up to 30 meters now?

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

42 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Those are the three arguments a person could feasibly make, yes. 

As has been discussed at length, the first argument is very weak. Doubling your total damage requires building for Strength, and the pool of frames that can reasonably do that is bigger than Rhino alone, but it's not unlimited. Again, Shock Trooper, Smite Infusion, and Fireball Frenzy can double your damage with the same strength build, and Saryn has one of each, her own Roar in addition to the option of Venom Dose. Wisp and Nova have debuffs that double damage vulnerability to whole crowds, one of which is donatable. Roar is the most versatile because it amplifies your existing damage instead of adding another type, but it's not uniquely powerful. Being able to put Roar, or Shock Trooper for that matter, on any frame of your choice does give CC and support frames more options, but so does this entire system. (It's very weird that the person who wrote this up included Shock as a counterexample, incidentally, considering its only actual use is as a squad damage boost that can double damage output on a Strength build. Air Burst is a valid example of a trash transferrable power, of course.)

The second argument really just overlooks why people main other frames. I'm looking forward to Molt and Breach Surge more than Roar, and Roar isn't even the only one of these abilities capable of doubling damage output with the right build, a build that's incompatible with most CC-oriented frames, frames that outright require high efficiency like Khora and Mesa, etc. (A Mesa's Roar will never be as good as a Rhino's.) Roar did surprise me the most with its inclusion, and I expected Rhino would only provide Charge, but I was biting my nails to see if I'd guessed right that Molt and Breach Surge would be the ones included for those two. It's obviously top tier, but it's not unequivocally the best option on the list or something. 

The third argument is the closest to true. Roar is often Rhino's whole damn thing in high level play. Again, I don't think we want a system where we can trade off Reservoirs or Peacemaker. But that really speaks to Rhino being an old and limited frame. I don't think there's any reason in the current meta for his 4 to be weaker than Nezha's equivalent and I think more could be done with his 1. This calls back to the first of the three arguments, but I don't think the intention is for Rhino's kit to be generally weak to make up for Roar. Of all of the other damage boost abilities in the game, Roar is the most direct without any caveats or limitations, but it really isn't uniquely powerful, as has been demonstrated with real numbers. Not every frame is a Mesa or Wisp who has one unique and powerful ability to which everything else is an accessory; a Nezha or Ember or Saryn or Khora has a full set of abilities in which no one ability is the defining one for how that frame plays. I don't think Rhino is meant to be a one-trick pony either. So again, maybe Roar isn't the problem here.

You don't even need to mod that hard for strength though. Just by adding Umbral Intensify you are almost at 75% Roar which is almost to a 1.75x Multiplier that applies to everything. Weapons, abilities, slash procs and so on. It's universal. It's just simply the wild card in the whole system. You'd experiment with combinations with different frames and so on, but eventually if you don't find something you like you will either turn to Roar or Warcry, some cases even Dispenser or Larva. But the main thing is Roar. No frame will hurt from having all their damage Multiplied except on some specific builds.

Your arguments are valid, and we can agree on the third argument. Wisp who focuses on Max strength and duration is a prime example of this, and her larger energy pool makes it even easier to keep it up at all times. So now she gives haste, CC, health + regen then a damage buff via Roar. Nezha is the same as Rhino, now replace Firewalker with it and you have an "updated" Rhino who's better in every way who even has more mobility.

 

 

 

 

 

[linn4you]

vor 1 Minute schrieb selig_fay:

Do you want me to show you an Inaros that can Nuck up to 30 meters now?

with roar and elemental sandstorm i guess?
if it kills high lvl enemys it could be a problem, idk, i wait for the update
a decreased effect of subsumed dmg abilities will at least help

 

[selig_fay]

Just now, linn4you said:

with roar and elemental sandstorm i guess?

Not guess. xD

Ok. I'll give you a hint. Status nuck at 30 meters.

[IRVoidGuru]

1 hour ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

Yes, it's also unfair to Valkyr's and they both go against the clear blueprint they intended for the system. Roar falls directly in line with the "No Desecrate" line they said during the Tennocon stream. If Nekros gave Desecrate, what would happen to Nekros?

If memory servers me right, Rebecca also said when she was explaining Zephyr that if she gave Turbulence instead of Airburst there will be too little going for her and little reason to pick her and that's exactly whats going to happen.

DE stated no ulti and no theme abilities. So that is one each leaving half of a kit to work with. Now for years iv seen iron skin as his skill. That being said, would rhino users rather give up only charge? Is it that you want your weakest foot forward? Would iron skin be more acceptable than Roar?

 Same thing for valk. Her warcry is just a speed buff and armor increase. Would you rather only give up ripline? Or are valkitty users willing to give up paralysis?

When frames like wisp and ash are also giving up ther best skills why should yours be treated with kitty gloves?is it your intention to keep your frame's individuality to the point that it becomes a jk to the new update.  Or do you want your best foot forward?

P.S. if they remove roar it won't matter,  rage is basically the same thing but requires recasting.

 

[linn4you]

vor 1 Minute schrieb selig_fay:

Not guess. xD

Ok. I'll give you a hint. Status nuck at 30 meters.

with breach surge?idk^^

[selig_fay]

Just now, linn4you said:

with breach surge?idk^^

 

[linn4you]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb selig_fay:

 

i don´t see it, but i assume it´s the mecha set?
will Roar have an effect on it?

[Eidolor]

10000% agree with you, Wukong’s ability should be twin, I don’t even care if the models match, he can stay Wukong

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, linn4you said:

i don´t see it, but i assume it´s the mecha set?

will Roar have an effect on it?

Roar affects weapons, so it will also affect slash ticks damage. But it doesn't matter much, because inaros 1 is +400% melee damage.

[IRVoidGuru]

9 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

 

When you say "now" surly you mean Right now before the update. The mecha you're using does that with any old slash proc weapon.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

When you say "now" surly you mean Right now before the update. The mecha you're using does that with any old slash proc weapon.

That's what I mean. People say it will break the game. But Hey, here's a thing that kills at 30 meters. Why isn't anyone using this?

[linn4you]

Gerade eben schrieb selig_fay:

That's what I mean. People say it will break the game. But Hey, here's a thing that kills at 30 meters. Why isn't anyone using this?

not many ppl know it, PSSSST ^^ 
thats one of these, we may or may not nerf it kind of things
it´s at least available for all warframes 

[IRVoidGuru]

2 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

That's what I mean. People say it will break the game. But Hey, here's a thing that kills at 30 meters. Why isn't anyone using this?

I use it! So please,  refrain from posting this info too much as popular things get nerfed! But yes. It works