2 IMPORTANT Mirage problems and suggestions for buffs

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Mirage needs a slight buff in my opinion, and they're mostly Quality of life improvement, let me first mention the problems

MIRAGE'S clones disappear when they touch the nullifier sphere, this leaves you with no clones and stuck with an ability timer, which forces you to deliberately enter the sphere to cancel the timer or fall off the pit to reset it

Just allow me to cancel the ability or don't make the clone affected by the nullifiers, only you.

NEW lighting system ruined eclipse with buffs in unwanted times 

I have a creative idea for this, people wanted to choose which buffs we want for eclipse like a cycle ability, but that doesn't make sense and is boring

Basically my idea is to use prism as source of light or darkness based on how you activate it, if you press it, it absorbs all light and gives you enough shadow for a 95% damage reduction eclipse

If you hold it, it releases immense light to grant you the maximum damage buff for eclipse 

Prism itself isn't affected by this idea, and it will still change its damage output based on lighting whether you press or hold it 

[Gabbynaru]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Basically my idea is to use prism as source of light or darkness based on how you activate it

So if you throw Prism away and get a new ability from the Helminth (as you should, especially considering you suggested no improvement to it and only made it a crutch, therefore even more useless than it already is, but now with the added "benefit" of babysitting), then Eclipse becomes useless too.

See, that's the problem with abilities that are reliant on other abilities. If one goes away, the other is just as useless. So, please, when making rework suggestions, make abilities stand on their own, because a reliant ability is a useless ability.

Just go to the simple solution, a toggle for Eclipse. Toggles in frame abilities are not new (Ivara, Vauban, Equinox, probably others I'm forgetting), so they have no excuse not to do that. Simple is always best.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

See, that's the problem with abilities that are reliant on other abilities. If one goes away, the other is just as useless. So, please, when making rework suggestions, make abilities stand on their own, because a reliant ability is a useless ability.

We should not care about the helminth, with your mentality every ability synergy is useless because we can replace abilities

That's my problem with some of these opinions, they're so lazy and dependant on the helminth system as their defense

People not caring about reworks because "too much work for an ability that's going to be subsumed out most of the time"

 

Or your case which is really saddening to read

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Just go to the simple solution, a toggle for Eclipse. Toggles in frame abilities are not new (Ivara, Vauban, Equinox, probably others I'm forgetting), so they have no excuse not to do that. Simple is always best.

No, because it makes no freaking sense

The ability looses all of its flavor for just a other basic damage/ damage reduction ability 

Which makes me believe that you guys lost all sense of style since the helminth came out

[Gabbynaru]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

We should not care about the helminth, with your mentality every ability synergy is useless because we can replace abilities

Then make Prism good and worth using, that way the synergy will not be a burden that will kill Eclipse if it's missing.

Also, synergies are horrible because they diminish abilities. Not because those abilities can be replaced. A frame with 4, synergy-less abilities will always be much better than a frame with 4 synergizing abilities. Because those 4 synergizing abilities will barely be able to scratch the power of one non-synergizing ability, since they are so reliant on the perfect conditions and timing to function at their best.

So screw synergies. And yes, I had this opinion since Octavia came out, so stop using Helminth as an excuse to brush off people.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

No, because it makes no freaking sense

The ability looses all of its flavor for just a other basic damage/ damage reduction ability 

Which makes me believe that you guys lost all sense of style since the helminth came out

Ah yes, I really do enjoy the buggy AF, barely functional flavor of Eclipse.

Look mate, I had this opinion for years. Helminth didn't change anything. Eclipse is buggy and broken, it needs a fix and that's the simplest one. Excusing this horrible implementation by suggesting "flavor" is just a horrible line of thinking. F*ck the flavor, I want it to be functional.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

5 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Also, synergies are horrible because they diminish abilities. Not because those abilities can be replaced. A frame with 4, synergy-less abilities will always be much better than a frame with 4 synergizing abilities. Because those 4 synergizing abilities will barely be able to scratch the power of one non-synergizing ability, since they are so reliant on the perfect conditions and timing to function at their best.

Well, in my opinion, that's a horrible point of view

I don't even think DE thinks the same

6 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

So screw synergies. And yes, I had this opinion since Octavia came out, so stop using Helminth as an excuse to brush off people.

I didn't, you literally said this:

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

So if you throw Prism away and get a new ability from the Helminth

You mentioned helminth, the first thing you said, so if anything you're using helminth as an excuse to push away people's rework ideas to make room for, and excuse me for saying this, completely bland and unoriginal change

 

11 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

F*ck the flavor

Well that's just you, and probably a bunch of people too

But i'm not going to change how i want to rework Warframes because someone has a shady history with synergies

Synergies are what makes a warframe feel alive and unique, Synergy makes a warframe more than just a bunch of 4 unrelated and out of place abilities

 

If you don't think so, then I don't think Warframr is for you anymore

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

So if you throw Prism away and get a new ability from the Helminth (as you should, especially considering you suggested no improvement to it and only made it a crutch, therefore even more useless than it already is, but now with the added "benefit" of babysitting), then Eclipse becomes useless too.

See, that's the problem with abilities that are reliant on other abilities. If one goes away, the other is just as useless. So, please, when making rework suggestions, make abilities stand on their own, because a reliant ability is a useless ability.

If I understand the proposal correctly, it really only adds a function to Prism.  It doesn't weaken Eclipse at all as a subsumed ability.

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-10-21 at 6:27 PM, Tiltskillet said:

If I understand the proposal correctly, it really only adds a function to Prism.  It doesn't weaken Eclipse at all as a subsumed ability.

Eclipse is strong only in numbers; it is rather undermined by its lighting-dependent mechanics... and even more so when it doesn't react as intended, I'd suppose.

The interior of a Gokstad didn't strike me as an especially darkly-lit place, but Sleight of Hand always blinded the Officer, so I guess it is, even when the room is on fire. I have no clue how much damage reduction I had in there, though, or whether I might have died without it... wasn't about to stand still and find out! 😆

In a firefight if I want to take less damage, I'd choose going behind some cover over looking for shadowy spots to run to. To damage enemies, I move to where I can shoot them from, rather than look for a patch of light to stand in and wait for my foes to hove into view.

I've used Mirage a fair bit, and Eclipse is something I activate and keep up just on the grounds it's probably being some help, most of the time.

Notionally, the whole light/dark dependency seems like a nifty idea -- in practice I use the Abilities where the enemies will be affected by them, not where the lighting conditions are most propitious.

Personally I choose Mirage when I'm looking for a straightforward glass cannon to play, so I'm not too fussed. A little uncertainty just adds to the spice! 😃

I sometimes wonder how many Mirage players actively seek to leverage the lighting mechanics (I mean properly, not that Ephemera which got fixed), maybe it's more than I think. 🤔

On 2020-10-21 at 2:11 PM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Or your case which is really saddening to read

On 2020-10-21 at 11:45 AM, Gabbynaru said:

Just go to the simple solution, a toggle for Eclipse. [...]. Simple is always best.

No, because it makes no freaking sense

A toggle for Eclispe is a "saddening" idea which "makes no sense". Okay, but...

On 2020-10-21 at 10:07 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

my idea is to use prism as source of light or darkness based on how you activate it, if you press it, it absorbs all light and gives you enough shadow for a 95% damage reduction eclipse

If you hold it, it releases immense light to grant you the maximum damage buff for eclipse 

Your suggestion is a toggle for Eclipse, though. You've merely attached the toggle to Prism instead of directly to Eclipse. 🤨

Which means if you don't want to cast Prism, Eclipse's effects remain unhelpfully situation-dependent, (and buggy to boot).

Also means Prism acts as a toggle for Sleight of Hand too, so if you wanted SoH for blinding CC, you either forgo the damage-boost of Eclipse or be constantly detonating and re-casting your Prism if you want control over what your other Abilities do. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

Also, that toggle would presumably only work if Mirage is in range and line-of-sight of the Prism -- probably fine for a Defense mission or camping trip, but for missions where you're continually on the move it would really suck, especially considering the cast time on Prism...

...and you'd probably want to build some Range so you wouldn't have to follow the Prism wherever it went -- meaning either less Duration and therefore frequent re-casting (thus less time shooting)... or less Power Strength, which would kind of make it an indirect nerf.

I get where you're coming from, trying to keep things interesting, but it just sounds clunky to me.

OTOH, if Eclipse became an unconditional tap-for-DR, hold-for-damage... then the player isn't really earning the big numbers. Nerfing the numbers to compensate for the convenience probably wouldn't go down well with the players. And I'm personally not keen on seeing Mirage become another "busy-fingers 'frame" where you're constantly casting Abilities to buff the performance of other Abilities.

I wonder what would be easier for the devs -- fix Mirage's response to the new lighting, or do a little rework?

[Andele3025]

On 2020-10-23 at 10:45 PM, OmegaVoid said:

Your suggestion is a toggle for Eclipse, though. You've merely attached the toggle to Prism instead of directly to Eclipse. 🤨

Its not.
Its making prism, a massive light source, count actually as a light source for the ability which is based on light while adding a cast version that darkens the area instead (which could cause smoke and choking instead of laser damage, sticking to the clown/smoke and mirrors theme of mirage).
Its a innate mechanical consequence of letting a ability which visually appears to do something mechanically also do said thing.

What would be a toggle is if prism then caused eclipse to be one state or another no matter where you are/even if outside of the light or shadow.

[OmegaVoid]

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

What would be a toggle is if prism then caused eclipse to be one state or another no matter where you are/even if outside of the light or shadow.

I see the distinction now, and I agree that you're basically right. You'd still be toggling Eclipse into the the chosen state by being in range+LoS of Prism, but wouldn't necessarily toggle into the alternate state by moving out of Prism's influence.

Of course, if Prism Guard is slotted, Eclipse would benefit from the chosen effect for the (admittedly reduced) duration of Prism.

Still, if Mirage has issues with the new lighting system the proposed mechanism doesn't fix Eclipse at all if the player doesn't cast Prism.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Its making prism, a massive light source, count actually as a light source [...]
Its a innate mechanical consequence of letting a ability which visually appears to do something mechanically also do said thing.

Not as presented, because in the OP it is suggested that Prism's own mechanics be affected only by the environment's own lighting.

Apparently the inconsistency of Eclipse is a problem for the OP, but the same inconsistency in Prism is a non-issue.

In a separate thread it was suggested:

On 2020-07-08 at 3:41 AM, BahamutKaiser said:

She's an acrobatic frame, just make it airborne or landed, so you can manually decide what you want regardless of environment. 

That's a pretty simple control mechanism... maybe better if being grounded gives half the DR, with full DR achieved when crouching/sliding. And the damage buff being modest at base, but increased by altitude gained during a jump or smth. 🤔