How is Xaku function properly?

[Colyeses]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Buff Grasp of Lohk gun range.

Remove the # of guns dependence on range and just have the maximum # of guns be a static 15.

Increase Gaze base defense reduction to 70%.
Increase Gaze cast speed.

let Grasp of Lohk guns target Accused enemies.

replace Evasion Chance with damage reduction.

give her a new passive.

 

That is major overkill. The build I'm running has enormous output on Grasp of Lohk, so buffs as aggressive as this would make them extremely overpowered. Gaze is also fine, at least its base values are, the only problem is that it's an immobile area in a game with ranged enemies, meaning you have to wait for enemies to come into range. For that reason, I'd want Deny, when cast on a Gaze target, to afflict them with an anomaly that pulls enemies towards it. 

Grasp of Lohk should not target Accused enemies, because it will just wipe them out. Grasp of Lohk should also not target the Gaze target, because it hurts my ears. 

I think evasion chance is all right for their ult. 75% is nothing to sneeze at, though it is true that it can make survival dependent on chance, rather than anything else, so it could do with better oneshot protection. 

Their passive is terrible and completely shut down by their ult, so that could do with a replacement. 

Also, Quality of Fashion change: The skeleton form should be better customisable. Xaku looks good and can be decorated quite nicely, but you're likely to spend most of your time running around nakey, which wastes armour pieces, most colouring, and Syandana.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

That is major overkill. The build I'm running has enormous output on Grasp of Lohk, so buffs as aggressive as this would make them extremely overpowered. Gaze is also fine, at least its base values are, the only problem is that it's an immobile area in a game with ranged enemies, meaning you have to wait for enemies to come into range. For that reason, I'd want Deny, when cast on a Gaze target, to afflict them with an anomaly that pulls enemies towards it. 

Grasp of Lohk should not target Accused enemies, because it will just wipe them out. Grasp of Lohk should also not target the Gaze target, because it hurts my ears. 

I think evasion chance is all right for their ult. 75% is nothing to sneeze at, though it is true that it can make survival dependent on chance, rather than anything else, so it could do with better oneshot protection. 

Their passive is terrible and completely shut down by their ult, so that could do with a replacement. 

Also, Quality of Fashion change: The skeleton form should be better customisable. Xaku looks good and can be decorated quite nicely, but you're likely to spend most of your time running around nakey, which wastes armour pieces, most colouring, and Syandana.

You’re massively overestimating how strong Xaku is. She needs 200% range AND strength at the exact same time in order for her abilities to perform at acceptable levels. This is unacceptable design. So Xaku needs to be significantly less dependent on Strength and range in order to reach the desirable strength of her abilities. Otherwise she’s just going to be more of a niche gimmick than an actual frame. Because even with that build and optimal set up she’s massively outperformed by frames that require significantly less investment.

I don’t see the issues of Grasp killing accused targets. They provide CC and Aggro while alive and by the time they’re all dead everything else should be dead too. Enemy damage does nothing against enemies also so trying to make the argument that Accuse targets are good DPS is not valid.

You know who else had 75% evasion chance? Titania. And you know what happened to her? She was quickly dismissed as borderline worthless because EVASION CHANCE IS A TERRIBLE SURVIVABILITY TOOL! Because every frame it’s put on is squishy as hell so the stat effectively translates to “You have a 25% chance to instantly die”. A Warframes survivability should NEVER be left up to RNG.

They removed armor and syandana from the skeleton form specifically because people didn’t like that everything was just floating around the skeleton then.

[Colyeses]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re massively overestimating how strong Xaku is.

Since the first wave of tweaks, they're pretty much the only Warframe I've played with. I know precisely how strong they are, and the answer is: Very. The build I'm using on them consistently makes them top both damage and kills, because Grasp of Lohk is the equivalent of a mini Mesa ult sitting on your shoulder. 

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

She needs 200% range AND strength at the exact same time in order for her abilities to perform at acceptable levels. This is unacceptable design.

Why is it unacceptable design to require 200% range and strength at the same time to make them perform well? Are people seriously that terrified of devoting more than four mod slots to ability improvements or something? You can't expect to get a full build for free!

And if you're comparing that to the investment Mesa requires: That's not anyone's problem but Mesa's. EVERYONE knows Mesa is horrendously overpowered and should not be used as a balancing benchmark.

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because even with that build and optimal set up she’s massively outperformed by frames that require significantly less investment.

It's true that Xaku requires marginally more investment in play than some other frames, but it's also true that they outperform anything I've played with. I'm perfectly happy with how powerful they are at the moment.

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I don’t see the issues of Grasp killing accused targets. They provide CC and Aggro while alive and by the time they’re all dead everything else should be dead too.

Except Lohk's guns would likely kill the accused before anything else, meaning the CC and aggro would be gone. I mean, it's not a big deal, but I'd rather have the ability not counteract Accuse directly. Accuse, as it is, is okay-ish, its biggest issue is just that it's on a cycle selection with Gaze. Cycle selections are terrible to control and generally push people to just choose one and stick to it. 

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know who else had 75% evasion chance? Titania. And you know what happened to her? She was quickly dismissed as borderline worthless because EVASION CHANCE IS A TERRIBLE SURVIVABILITY TOOL! Because every frame it’s put on is squishy as hell so the stat effectively translates to “You have a 25% chance to instantly die”. A Warframes survivability should NEVER be left up to RNG.

So now you're complaining about Xaku having terrible survivability after first saying you want to slaughter the aggro draw they have?

I mean, yeah, 75% evasion chance isn't good. But I've not had to rely on it at all. Lohk outranges my enemies, and their shots stagger and kill, so I tend not to get fired at much. 

Flat DR is an incredibly uninteresting mechanism. Evasion Chance isn't any more interesting, that's true, but there'd need to be a better replacement than just DR. In part as well because if you want a frame to gain more power from a state where they're already strong, that power needs to be leveraged somehow. Something more skill based than just 'Press X to never die'.

Besides, Xaku doesn't really need all that much survivability because you can just void mode as operator, and their Lohk guns will continue to fire away, while Xaku themselves are invulnerable.

 

Ironically, you open by claiming I overestimate how strong Xaku is, but, having played them as much as I have, I'm pretty sure you underestimate how strong they are.

[Colyeses]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Overextended is required to reach 200% range. That mod decreases strength. So you have to use blind range in conjunction with 2 other strength mods. So you end up wasting 5-6 mod slots and absolutely demolishing your energy efficiency. Which is not good for a caster frame. That high or range and strength are not compatible with each other.

Yeah, the energy efficiency is a thorn in Xaku's side. Big deal, when the output is the frame annihilating everything in a massive radius around itself even on Sortie level.

18 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’m not taking about Mesa. I’m taking about literally every other frame in the game. None of them have as an illogical build requirement as Xaku.

Every other frame in the game doesn't continuously kill enemies in such a large radius for such an extended period of time. It's like a Flechette on overdrive, that moves with your frame.

Why are you so focused on the frame having high damage, over a large radius, with low energy costs and low effort to play? There has to be some gameplay somewhere, so if you have to put in a bit more effort to keep energy up and to keep things running, that's a good way to leverage having high damage over high range.

21 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I can completely outclass Xaku with Larva and Mausolon.

Never compare Warframe damage to weapon damage because weapons are insanely overpowered. Even then, I doubt Larva + Mausolon would be enough, because you'd spend too much time recasting Larva. Lohk persists and automatically acquires new targets as they become available, Larva does not.

21 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hell, even Vauban can kill enemies more efficiently.

That was what I mained before Protea and only in rooms with limited access points is he equally effective compared to Xaku. Well, slightly more effective, since Flechettes pop Nullifier bubbles.

22 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Every good DPS frame can completely outperform Xaku with 1/50 of the energy cost.

Then why don't they?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Grasp only one shots lower level enemies. It’s not going to immediately kill the accused targets, and even still they can’t kill you because they would see you as an ally and not attack you.

Yeah, but Lohk doesn't need to oneshot any enemies, since it fires about 15 bullets per second on a good Grasp. And no, I don't care about the Accused attacking you, I care about other enemies getting distracted by the Accused. If they all die the moment they're Accused because Lohk slaughtered them all, that renders the ability mostly pointless.

25 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Grasp of Lohks firing range does not out range Enemies.

Mine does. Maxed range build.

25 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well you either get uninteresting and reliable. Or unique and garbage.

Well, considering Vast Untime has the far more powerful aspect of stopping duration timers, I'd say that it having bad defensive value is a fair trade off.

26 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If you have to use your operator to keep Xaku alive then Xaku is not good at surviving.

Maybe. But 'Not dying at all' is a pretty good benchmark to strive for, so if that can be attained, who cares?

27 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, You just think that the average D tier Warframe is as strong as frames should be in this game. My standards for what makes a good Warframe are very clearly much higher than yours.

And that is -your- problem. You want a frame that does obscene damage at the push of a button, that is simultaneously unkillable, without compromising more than 4 mod slots for abilities, AND it has to clear rooms easily?

That is -your- problem. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

4 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Since the first wave of tweaks, they're pretty much the only Warframe I've played with. I know precisely how strong they are, and the answer is: Very. The build I'm using on them consistently makes them top both damage and kills, because Grasp of Lohk is the equivalent of a mini Mesa ult sitting on your shoulder. 

Why is it unacceptable design to require 200% range and strength at the same time to make them perform well? Are people seriously that terrified of devoting more than four mod slots to ability improvements or something? You can't expect to get a full build for free!

And if you're comparing that to the investment Mesa requires: That's not anyone's problem but Mesa's. EVERYONE knows Mesa is horrendously overpowered and should not be used as a balancing benchmark.

It's true that Xaku requires marginally more investment in play than some other frames, but it's also true that they outperform anything I've played with. I'm perfectly happy with how powerful they are at the moment.

Except Lohk's guns would likely kill the accused before anything else, meaning the CC and aggro would be gone. I mean, it's not a big deal, but I'd rather have the ability not counteract Accuse directly. Accuse, as it is, is okay-ish, its biggest issue is just that it's on a cycle selection with Gaze. Cycle selections are terrible to control and generally push people to just choose one and stick to it. 

So now you're complaining about Xaku having terrible survivability after first saying you want to slaughter the aggro draw they have?

I mean, yeah, 75% evasion chance isn't good. But I've not had to rely on it at all. Lohk outranges my enemies, and their shots stagger and kill, so I tend not to get fired at much. 

Flat DR is an incredibly uninteresting mechanism. Evasion Chance isn't any more interesting, that's true, but there'd need to be a better replacement than just DR. In part as well because if you want a frame to gain more power from a state where they're already strong, that power needs to be leveraged somehow. Something more skill based than just 'Press X to never die'.

Besides, Xaku doesn't really need all that much survivability because you can just void mode as operator, and their Lohk guns will continue to fire away, while Xaku themselves are invulnerable.

 

Ironically, you open by claiming I overestimate how strong Xaku is, but, having played them as much as I have, I'm pretty sure you underestimate how strong they are.

Can you explain how is 75% evasion compared to a flat damage reduction is “skilled” game play? They are practically the same thing, with one being reliable, and the other being RNG. And all frames need survivability in one form or another. Creativity would be nice, but clearly this is not it.

As for operator, it is not a factor in frame balance, since it is the same for all frames. I do not even know why are bringing it up. Also, are we going to balance frames around cheese mechanics, that clearly are not working as intended? Obviously the guns were not supposed to fire when you do not control the frame. Are we encouraging passive turret game play?! Not that the damage the guns do is enough to kill hordes of enemies.

As for modding, stretch is more than enough. I do not think there is an issue, but the frame needs multiple forma.

Beside aesthetics, the frame is weaker than similar frames. No reliable AOE CC, so is not meant for defense type missions. Does not buff allies or provide energy or healing, so not team play. The armor strip is on the closer range, so you will mostly play melee, so is the guns. No nukes, so not going to be used for that. Which leaves one area, long survival. Won’t really work for distribution either. I am not going to bother comparing with Inaros, or a similar frame. There are orders of magnitude of survivability here.

There is one thing Xahu offers that is unique, void damage buff. Best use for the frame currently is feeding it to the Helminth and put that skill on a much better frame to fight sentients. 

 

 

[(XBOX)OptimusPrime600]

Again its more of my nitpick than anything else. Xaku is fine as is, and specially when round 2 comes up. People that mention that Xaku didn't mean to be glitch out cause DE mention that or other reasons thank you for informing me.

 

[Colyeses]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Can you explain how is 75% evasion compared to a flat damage reduction is “skilled” game play? They are practically the same thing, with one being reliable, and the other being RNG. And all frames need survivability in one form or another. Creativity would be nice, but clearly this is not it.

It's not, but if you want to buff Xaku, it'd have to be skill dependent to not upset the balance too much. If Xaku just gets a flat DR that makes them very hard to kill, there'd be little skill expression. Actually having occasional threats is a good thing. Evasion isn't a perfect or even good solution, but DR is worse, because it's either not going to be enough, or it's going to be too much.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

As for operator, it is not a factor in frame balance, since it is the same for all frames.

It isn't, because...

43 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Obviously the guns were not supposed to fire when you do not control the frame.

Xaku has deployed damage output. And I don't see why Lohk wouldn't fire, but Flechettes, Blaze Artillery and Maim would continue to affect enemies. Most Warframe abilities that persist will persist through transference, so I think it's fully intentional that Xaku's Grasp of Lohk continues to fire when the operator is on the field.

44 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Not that the damage the guns do is enough to kill hordes of enemies.

Up to rank 100? Yeah it is. Above that? Toss in Vast Untime or Gaze, they get right back to slaughtering. 

47 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

No reliable AOE CC, so is not meant for defense type missions.

I wouldn't say that. Mesa is still considered adequate for defense despite a lack of AoE CC. 

After all, the best CC is death. And Xaku dishes out plenty.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Does not buff allies or provide energy or healing, so not team play.

Gaze does provide a massive increase to damage, though.

49 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

The armor strip is on the closer range, so you will mostly play melee, so is the guns.

The armor strip's range restriction is the only thing that could really use some work, since enemies are too hesitant to enter the area. But with the right build, the gun's range is pretty much cell wide for anything that isn't an open world tileset, or specific outdoor cells. If I were to try to use melee, I'd never get a hit in when trying to compete with Grasp of Lohk. Even guns are difficult to use because it's hard to find targets that are still alive.

51 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I am not going to bother comparing with Inaros, or a similar frame. There are orders of magnitude of survivability here.

Yes, and there can be no justification for Xaku boasting the damage they do, and also being in one of the upper levels of survivability. I'm not arguing that Xaku has high survivability, I'm arguing that they have sufficient survivability.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

There is one thing Xahu offers that is unique, void damage buff.

That is the one skill that I kicked out, because it is bland and doesn't synergise with anything. Strap on anything else and you can even try and cover some weak spots, like the lack of CC or survivability. Strap on a Pillage and get even more defense shredding while boosting Xaku's survivability. You still get to set all defenses to 0 with Gaze and wipe out everything in the cell continuously with Lohk.

Just FYI, my Xaku build produces the following ability parameters:

Duration - 155%
Efficiency - 80%
Range - 265%
Strength - 200% (+25% from Growing Power)

That build will rip through pretty much anything

[(PSN)thegarada]

3 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

It's not, but if you want to buff Xaku, it'd have to be skill dependent to not upset the balance too much. If Xaku just gets a flat DR that makes them very hard to kill, there'd be little skill expression. Actually having occasional threats is a good thing. Evasion isn't a perfect or even good solution, but DR is worse, because it's either not going to be enough, or it's going to be too much.

It isn't, because...

Xaku has deployed damage output. And I don't see why Lohk wouldn't fire, but Flechettes, Blaze Artillery and Maim would continue to affect enemies. Most Warframe abilities that persist will persist through transference, so I think it's fully intentional that Xaku's Grasp of Lohk continues to fire when the operator is on the field.

Up to rank 100? Yeah it is. Above that? Toss in Vast Untime or Gaze, they get right back to slaughtering. 

I wouldn't say that. Mesa is still considered adequate for defense despite a lack of AoE CC. 

After all, the best CC is death. And Xaku dishes out plenty.

Gaze does provide a massive increase to damage, though.

The armor strip's range restriction is the only thing that could really use some work, since enemies are too hesitant to enter the area. But with the right build, the gun's range is pretty much cell wide for anything that isn't an open world tileset, or specific outdoor cells. If I were to try to use melee, I'd never get a hit in when trying to compete with Grasp of Lohk. Even guns are difficult to use because it's hard to find targets that are still alive.

Yes, and there can be no justification for Xaku boasting the damage they do, and also being in one of the upper levels of survivability. I'm not arguing that Xaku has high survivability, I'm arguing that they have sufficient survivability.

That is the one skill that I kicked out, because it is bland and doesn't synergise with anything. Strap on anything else and you can even try and cover some weak spots, like the lack of CC or survivability. Strap on a Pillage and get even more defense shredding while boosting Xaku's survivability. You still get to set all defenses to 0 with Gaze and wipe out everything in the cell continuously with Lohk.

Just FYI, my Xaku build produces the following ability parameters:

Duration - 155%
Efficiency - 80%
Range - 265%
Strength - 200% (+25% from Growing Power)

That build will rip through pretty much anything

I think you are bit misunderstanding me here. It is not that Xahu has no tools, but that the tools are mismatched with the role it is supposed to fulfil, which as it currently stands, primarily endless survivability missions. 

Again, the evasion is the same as DR, with unreliable RNG. Having no damage than massive damage spike is not a good design. DE can create a different mechanic, which would be fitting for a void based frame. However, if we will go lazy route, then DR, not evasion.

For the guns, I am unsure which content you are talking about. I am not going to use Xahu to fight level 50 mobs. I use nuke frames for that. I am talking SP here, same for the evasion above. You are not going to slaughter level 130 mobs with the guns, even with no armor. And regardless, the guns firing while not in operator mode, should be disabled. Regardless of the damage, passive turret game play should never be possible.  

Also, can you use the gaze in boss fights? No? What value does it have for a team then? Killing mobs? I can do that easily with melee weapons with full armor. Why would I need armor striping? Not that it is bad or anything, but if I kill mobs semi instantly in melee, does the damage matter? IMO armor stripping is only valuable for ranged fights, either using guns, or nuke skills. Neither are Xahu's territory. 

And the comparison with Inaros is relevant, cuz that is the role Xahu is currently in. And no, the survivability is not enough to comfortably play something like MoT SP. And you have to deal with Nullifiers and arbitration drones. It is not an area where Xahu does well in. 

Xahu needs role redefinition. Either become more range oriented, or better survivability. DE could be creative with void and survivability. The evasion does not work. And having 2 skills that require the consistent presence of mobs is also a design issue, cuz hordes of mobs may not always be available. As it currently stands Xahu is not bad, just a bit above mediocre. 

[Colyeses]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

It is not that Xahu has no tools, but that the tools are mismatched with the role it is supposed to fulfil, which as it currently stands, primarily endless survivability missions. 

Xaku is fine in any mission type that isn't spy. I don't know why you're ignoring Xaku's performance on anything other than 1+ hour survival missions. Don't fixate yourself on assigning frames to only one mission type, because then most frames won't get much playtime at all. Just play Xaku for Xaku, not for them being the best in any given role.

It's fine to have a frame that is good at everything, but not a master at anything.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Again, the evasion is the same as DR, with unreliable RNG. Having no damage than massive damage spike is not a good design. DE can create a different mechanic, which would be fitting for a void based frame. However, if we will go lazy route, then DR, not evasion.

Yeah, I'm fine with evasion being replaced, just not with straight-up, no-strings-attached DR. That's all.

11 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

For the guns, I am unsure which content you are talking about. I am not going to use Xahu to fight level 50 mobs. I use nuke frames for that. I am talking SP here, same for the evasion above. You are not going to slaughter level 130 mobs with the guns, even with no armor.

A) Steel Path is not used as a balancing metric. 

B) I'm pretty sure Xaku still works just fine in Steel Path, because 100% defense strip is not to be underestimated. Those guns have their damage output multiplied by enemy level, so level 130 enemies take 130x the damage per shot, 18x per second. It's seriously nothing to sneeze at and it'll carve through sortie level enemies without much difficulty. 

C) 'I use nuke frames for that'. It's fine if you want to only use the best possible tool. Xaku doesn't have to be the best. Xaku just has to be good.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

And regardless, the guns firing while not in operator mode, should be disabled. Regardless of the damage, passive turret game play should never be possible.  

You'd have to mangle every single Warframe if you want that to not be a break in protocol. Every single Warframe ability persists through transference, so if you make Xaku the exception, that'd be awful game design.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Also, can you use the gaze in boss fights?

As far as I know: Yes, actually. The boss itself cannot be targeted with it, but if there are enemies in its vicinity, those can be afflicted to strip the boss' armour. Lech Kril's sortie the other day, I turned his health bar red with Gaze.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

What value does it have for a team then?

Are boss fights the only thing you do?

Outside of any regular combat, Gaze can also be used to restrain demolists.

18 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I can do that easily with melee weapons with full armor.

Okay, but that argument can be used to justify complete deletion of every single Warframe with the exception of maybe Inaros. 

19 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Why would I need armor striping? Not that it is bad or anything, but if I kill mobs semi instantly in melee, does the damage matter?

On Steel Path 130+? If that's the case, how about instead of nerfing Grasp of Lohk functioning exactly as it should during transference, how about we scale melee damage back down so it doesn't invalidate all content?

21 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

IMO armor stripping is only valuable for ranged fights, either using guns, or nuke skills. Neither are Xahu's territory. 

So Xaku has a very strong skill for ranged fights, but 'it's not Xaku's territory so therefor it is bad'? You keep trying to twist yourself up in weird rules about usage. As if a frame physically cannot use guns without having a gun damage booster or something...

24 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Xahu needs role redefinition.

That is the exact opposite of what Xaku needs. Defined roles don't work when we have some roles being invalidated by power creep, and some roles being just completely obsolete. Role-specific frames aren't run outside of the very specific scenarios that call for them, and Xaku shouldn't be consigned to that same fate. Xaku, as it stands, is a jack-of-all-trades that actually carries a lot of firepower and with some finesse, can be played at very high level content to great effect. 

27 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Either become more range oriented, or better survivability.

Improved survivability would probably enforce a tradeoff with reduced damage output, which would hinder them more than it would help. And I don't know what you envision for a 'more range oriented' frame.

28 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

And having 2 skills that require the consistent presence of mobs is also a design issue, cuz hordes of mobs may not always be available.

Are you referring to Accuse and Grasp?

Because Grasp's range grows extremely excessive and disregards LoS. It's pretty easy to grab more than 6 guns, and in addition to that, a single grab can last tens of minutes due to Vast Untime stretching it out. You only need that spike very intermittently, and enemies don't even have to be concentrated.

As for Accuse: AFAIK, you can cast it on a Gaze target as well, allowing it to persistently serve as a distraction.

30 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

As it currently stands Xahu is not bad, just a bit above mediocre. 

Quite a bit above mediocre, and keep in mind, if people are tugging this hard for very aggressive buffs, what's that say about how accustomed we've gotten to power creep?

Xaku is a very solid frame, and they do not need to be the next big balancing blemish.

[JackFraust]

Personally, I don't see any problems with Xaku; she's a great crowd control frame. I get that she's the "Broken" warframe, but peeps are putting her out to be the other kind of "broken", but I don't see it. She's got great dps, cc and tankiness.

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned.

The warframe forums aren't the right place to have a debate about gender identity. Please, let's not go off topic.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Yeah, the energy efficiency is a thorn in Xaku's side. Big deal, when the output is the frame annihilating everything in a massive radius around itself even on Sortie level.

Every other frame in the game doesn't continuously kill enemies in such a large radius for such an extended period of time. It's like a Flechette on overdrive, that moves with your frame.

Why are you so focused on the frame having high damage, over a large radius, with low energy costs and low effort to play? There has to be some gameplay somewhere, so if you have to put in a bit more effort to keep energy up and to keep things running, that's a good way to leverage having high damage over high range.

Never compare Warframe damage to weapon damage because weapons are insanely overpowered. Even then, I doubt Larva + Mausolon would be enough, because you'd spend too much time recasting Larva. Lohk persists and automatically acquires new targets as they become available, Larva does not.

That was what I mained before Protea and only in rooms with limited access points is he equally effective compared to Xaku. Well, slightly more effective, since Flechettes pop Nullifier bubbles.

Then why don't they?

Yeah, but Lohk doesn't need to oneshot any enemies, since it fires about 15 bullets per second on a good Grasp. And no, I don't care about the Accused attacking you, I care about other enemies getting distracted by the Accused. If they all die the moment they're Accused because Lohk slaughtered them all, that renders the ability mostly pointless.

Mine does. Maxed range build.

Well, considering Vast Untime has the far more powerful aspect of stopping duration timers, I'd say that it having bad defensive value is a fair trade off.

Maybe. But 'Not dying at all' is a pretty good benchmark to strive for, so if that can be attained, who cares?

And that is -your- problem. You want a frame that does obscene damage at the push of a button, that is simultaneously unkillable, without compromising more than 4 mod slots for abilities, AND it has to clear rooms easily?

That is -your- problem. 

Grasp of Lohk really is not as strong as you think it is. It’s decent for trash mob clear, but there’s far more powerful options that don’t demand an absurd build cost.

Ember did at one point, and in a far cheaper and lazier way.

I just want Xaku to be good. But no apparently a mid tier damage output  completely justifies making the energy cost of her abilities stupid high. Because you know The Lost isn’t already far too expensive for what it does.

You doubt larva + mausolon? Then test it yourself.

What do you mean “Why don’t they”? They do. There’s absolutely zero reason to spend 300+ energy with 3 ability casts of Xaku to accomplish the same thing a different frame can do with 1 ability and significantly less energy.

But if all the accused targets die then all the enemies around them should logically be dead too.

Enemy targeting range is like 200 meters. Grasp doesn’t even reach 25.

Having one good effect does not justify another sucking.

No, my problem is Xaku sucks and people like you can’t recognize that. But no apparently a DPS frame being good at DPS is too OP and frames that struggle to perform is the obvious pinnacle of Warframe design.

[Colyeses]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Grasp of Lohk really is not as strong as you think it is.

I guess I must be imagining the results I've been getting with it then.

12 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ember did at one point, and in a far cheaper and lazier way.

And that was deleted because it was really bad for gameplay. 

13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I just want Xaku to be good.

They are.

13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But no apparently a mid tier damage output

That beats out Mesas, Saryns, Vaubans, anything, on the regular.

13 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

What do you mean “Why don’t they”? They do.

I have yet to be surpassed for damage output/kill count with my current build.

14 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But if all the accused targets die then all the enemies around them should logically be dead too.

Except the Accused are likely closer to you than enemies that are newly pouring in, meaning they're more likely to be targeted. There's no reason to change the way it works now, unless you want Accuse to have less value.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Enemy targeting range is like 200 meters. Grasp doesn’t even reach 25.

That's the targeting range, not the shooting range. Enemies will close the distance before they open fire.

16 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Having one good effect does not justify another sucking.

Yes it does.  I mean, the alternative is making them both mediocre, or just stripping the side effect entirely. 

16 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, my problem is Xaku sucks and people like you can’t recognize that.

Have you tried a build with the stats I listed? Have you attempted to run that and see what kind of results you get in general play?

17 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

But no apparently a DPS frame being good at DPS is too OP and frames that struggle to perform is the obvious pinnacle of Warframe design.

God forbid we move away from 'press 4 to win' crap.