IPS and Slash

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

Close this mess DE. 🤮

[Godmode_Ash]

3 minutes ago, ShiruBiru said:

Close this mess DE. 🤮

Why? What did we do wrong? =(

[Andele3025]

No. Slash is fine where it is. In fact it could even get back its shield ignoring bit and still be balanced by its own. Its a 0.35 total damage DR ignore per hit.
Puncture proc being worthless is derp but puncture is the best out of raw multipliers on the direct damage side.

Impact tho needs help on the proc side and given actual synergy with parazon. Instead of being RNG soft fixer at 5%, it should guarantee parazon and repeat stacks increase the threshold (i mean, if you waste time stacking to 10x impact on a enemy+animation time, you deserve to get the kill on a mook with 50~65% max hp left).
 

[Godmode_Ash]

53 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No. Slash is fine where it is. In fact it could even get back its shield ignoring bit and still be balanced by its own. Its a 0.35 total damage DR ignore per hit.
Puncture proc being worthless is derp but puncture is the best out of raw multipliers on the direct damage side.

Impact tho needs help on the proc side and given actual synergy with parazon. Instead of being RNG soft fixer at 5%, it should guarantee parazon and repeat stacks increase the threshold (i mean, if you waste time stacking to 10x impact on a enemy+animation time, you deserve to get the kill on a mook with 50~65% max hp left).
 

Please read the entire thread if you want to comment, you are like 3rd person who mis-understood my point.

This thread is not about slash being too strong. When I said Slash is OP, I was only explaining to people who think slash is equal to puncture/impact, because some people didn't believe slash is much stronger than puncture/impact.  In the entire thread I have not mentioning once that slash effect needs to be nerf.

This topic was about slash being too strong "among" the base element, IPS. Thurs, slash effect should be rearranged into 2nd tier elements where its place is more "fit". Perhaps in this way, high slash weapon will be balanced out so it's a nerf to those weapons. But slash status itself NOT being nerf in my suggestion.

 

 

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, Leqesai said:

There should definitely be more syngergistic combinations between procs.

Personally, I'd say the exact opposite.

For one, some of those synergies sound like perfect replacements for or additions to existing elements. More damage for Radiation? Given enemy EHP versus damage output, it probably needs it. Gas and Heat creating an explosion? That sounds like a wonderful fit for Blast, since the knockdown was disliked for how it mucked up headshots / ranged combat compared to other CC forms (And Corpus shield gating does make that kind of important - I'd personally say to make Blast a short Blind, ala a flashbang, if we're going to keep it a CC option). So on and so forth.

But I also see a lot of headaches for balance on that. We have several issues with balancing just regular procs as it is. Those synergies not only vary wildly in innate accessibility (how powerful does one make Magnetic + Electric when only a handful of weapons can take innate advantage of it, while many more weapons can use Viral + Slash without backup?), it ends up with synergies competing for space the same way elements currently do. And does something like Blast + Impact really become worth it over Cold + Impact, or Electricity + Magnetic? Moreover, does Impact's synergy with Cold affect what we change Impact's vanilla proc into? Is it suddenly fine for it to have a sub-par vanilla proc because it has a comparatively astounding synergy? Those sorts of problems make the space over which to achieve even fuzzy balance that much bigger. It's not like there's anything forbidding us from pulling that off, from a technical standpoint, but I don't know how well I'd trust someone to clean a football field if they can't even tidy up their own backyard.

[Andele3025]

15 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

This thread is not about slash being too strong. When I said Slash is OP, I was only explaining to people who think slash is equal to puncture/impact, because some people didn't believe slash is much stronger than puncture/impact.  In the entire thread I have not mentioning once that slash effect needs to be nerf.

I didnt misread, you are just ignoring that it isnt op for a physical type.

[Leqesai]

2 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Personally, I'd say the exact opposite.

For one, some of those synergies sound like perfect replacements for or additions to existing elements. More damage for Radiation? Given enemy EHP versus damage output, it probably needs it. Gas and Heat creating an explosion? That sounds like a wonderful fit for Blast, since the knockdown was disliked for how it mucked up headshots / ranged combat compared to other CC forms (And Corpus shield gating does make that kind of important - I'd personally say to make Blast a short Blind, ala a flashbang, if we're going to keep it a CC option). So on and so forth.

But I also see a lot of headaches for balance on that. We have several issues with balancing just regular procs as it is. Those synergies not only vary wildly in innate accessibility (how powerful does one make Magnetic + Electric when only a handful of weapons can take innate advantage of it, while many more weapons can use Viral + Slash without backup?), it ends up with synergies competing for space the same way elements currently do. And does something like Blast + Impact really become worth it over Cold + Impact, or Electricity + Magnetic? Moreover, does Impact's synergy with Cold affect what we change Impact's vanilla proc into? Is it suddenly fine for it to have a sub-par vanilla proc because it has a comparatively astounding synergy? Those sorts of problems make the space over which to achieve even fuzzy balance that much bigger. It's not like there's anything forbidding us from pulling that off, from a technical standpoint, but I don't know how well I'd trust someone to clean a football field if they can't even tidy up their own backyard.

I agree that synergies make for difficulties regarding balance.

If DE just makes all of the status procs useful and appropriate then they don't need synergies.

[Godmode_Ash]

12 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

I didnt misread, you are just ignoring that it isnt op for a physical type.

It IS the best overall physical type. Good against high armor grinner, infested, and more dmg than impact against non-shield corpus.

Puncture/impact doesn't come close to slash.

[Tyreaus]

OTT otherwise:

11 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I suggest keep the current IPS damage strong/weakness against enemies, but completely remove their status effect and move the effect to 2nd tier elements.

Biggest problem is that the vast majority of Slash's power is from its True damage proc. So if it is so overtly powerful, then moving its effect to another element doesn't actually get rid of the problem, it just renames it.

11 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

IMO slash is a too strong of status effect compare to impact and puncture. This make slash weapon being praise while impact/puncture being let down. I am aware slash doesn't bypass shield, but it still works better against 2/3 of factions.

Impact and Puncture don't really have great procs even aside from comparisons. They probably need a bit of a proc buff no matter what is done to Slash.

(Their damage bonuses are plenty fine, though)

11 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

DE should Move slash effect to one of those 2nd element like Blast for example. Of course, this require another balance on all 2nd elemental effect and switch them around. Maybe they even need to introduce another element(5th element like rock?) for combination for extra rooms.

As in part 1 above, this doesn't fix the problem, it just shuffles it.

11 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

This whole rebalance thing might sound alot of work, but elements are foundation of everything. If the rebalance is done correctly, more weapons will be accessible and not just those slash one being favor. Players still have freedom to make slash status on every weapon.

It doesn't seem like the point is about Slash being powerful but IPS statuses in general not always being moddable. E.g., that you can't add Slash to a Tombfinger kitgun, and that it's not always possible to re-weigh IPS elements on weapons (can't really get Slash surpassing Puncture on a Lex Prime, e.g.). What you propose in part 1 above doesn't change anything about Slash in terms of power.

I think everyone here, including yourself, is getting lost in discussion about how strong Slash is or isn't. But, really, is that actually what you're asking for? Because the only change you propose isn't asking for a change to Slash's strength. It's asking to let you put that strength on whatever you choose.

And if that is what you're asking for, you'd probably find a lot less friction by saying as much.

EDIT: Having re-re-reread things (and it really isn't clear in the first post), it seems like you think Slash doesn't fit with Puncture and Impact because Slash procs are, by comparison, so much more powerful than Impact or Puncture procs. Nothing to do with damage bonuses. But if that's the case, doesn't it make a lot more sense to buff Impact and Puncture procs, rather than shuffling Slash elsewhere? 

Could say, for example: "Slash deals true damage so it doesn't fit with Impact and Puncture procs that are much less useful, so let's give true damage advantages to Impact and Puncture so that Impact procs convert like 200% of Impact damage to true damage on proc and Puncture gives enemies a debuff allowing 10% of incoming damage to bypass armour".

Seems much, much easier to make Impact and Puncture fit Slash than to move Slash somewhere else...

[Godmode_Ash]

@Tyreaus First of, thanks for actually reading my post and try to comprehensive my point of view.

The reason I suggest remove all IPS status effect, but keep damage strength/weakness against faction, is to balance out favorite weapons. Slash is community favorite, while impact/puncture weapons being biased. Of course crit/status or other stats also take into account, that's why kitgun like tombfinger can get away without any slash. But I am talking about in general, people treat slash weapon like meta. By taking away slash from base IPS and rearranged into 2nd tier element. it makes all weapon more balanced.

But why move the new slash effect into 2nd tier? Because if it in 2nd tier, players has to mod to get the effect. A weapons usefulness is decide less by base IPS or crit/status. If you want slash effect, you actually have to mod it, and any weapon can be slash weapon, making ALL weapon useful and none left out.

This is also the part why I suggest maybe we needed 5th element after tox/cold/ele/fire to combine into extra 2nd tier element, because we are running out of room.

You asked why not buff impact/puncture instead of moving all IPS status away. The way I see how strong slash is, I don't think it is possible DE could rework impact/puncture to as good as slash.

Again I am not talking about slash too op need nerf. The whole post since the beginning was about balancing the weapon. Thats is why I am posting under the weapon feedback section. Maybe slash is too strong need rework, the entire elementals need rework tbh. But I am not suggesting that, I am only discuss for the sole purpose of weapon balancing.

 

[Tyreaus]

29 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

The reason I suggest remove all IPS status effect, but keep damage strength/weakness against faction, is to balance out favorite weapons. Slash is community favorite, while impact/puncture weapons being biased. Of course crit/status or other stats also take into account, that's why kitgun like tombfinger can get away without any slash. But I am talking about in general, people treat slash weapon like meta. By taking away slash from base IPS and rearranged into 2nd tier element. it makes all weapon more balanced.

One key confusion here is that you "suggest removing all IPS status effect", which includes Impact and Puncture, but then talk about Slash being on a 2nd tier. Slash =/= all IPS. That's not helping understanding, I won't lie, and I'm still confused if you mean to put Slash onto 2nd tier, or all IPS (including Impact and Puncture).

29 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

But why move the new slash effect into 2nd tier? Because if it in 2nd tier, players has to mod to get the effect. A weapons usefulness is decide less by base IPS or crit/status. If you want slash effect, you actually have to mod it, and any weapon can be slash weapon, making ALL weapon useful and none left out.

From my experience, at the point where Slash procs start to make an iota of difference (over burst DPS and elemental bonuses), the stereotypical meta ends up dominated by forced bleed procs from stances, certain heavy attacks, and things like Hunter Munitions. Innate Slash isn't anywhere near as prominent, in large part because IPS Slash doesn't often have great odds to proc once you throw in other elemental mods - especially primed ones - and also because forced procs can couple with crit-based weapons and get the bonuses of crit multipliers that status-based weapons don't.

At that point, it's less an IPS issue, more of a mod one.

29 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

This is also the part why I suggest maybe we needed 5th element after tox/cold/ele/fire to combine into extra 2nd tier element, because we are running out of room.

As far as I'm concerned, we definitely don't need more elements considering we suffer from things like Blast being the abysmal thing it is. DE seems to struggle making existing elements both unique and competitive. Adding more won't help that.

29 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

You asked why not buff impact/puncture instead of moving all IPS status away. The way I see how strong slash is, I don't think it is possible DE could rework impact/puncture to as good as slash.

Setting exact numbers aside, what's wrong with the suggestion:

"Slash deals true damage so it doesn't fit with Impact and Puncture procs that are much less useful, so let's give true damage advantages to Impact and Puncture so that Impact procs convert like 200% of Impact damage to true damage on proc and Puncture gives enemies a debuff allowing 10% of incoming damage to bypass armour".

Seems to me like you'd be able to get comparable something out of that.

(Also: Blast could use an AoE damage instance on proc. We need more instance procs.)

[Godmode_Ash]

9 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

One key confusion here is that you "suggest removing all IPS status effect", which includes Impact and Puncture, but then talk about Slash being on a 2nd tier. Slash =/= all IPS. That's not helping understanding, I won't lie, and I'm still confused if you mean to put Slash onto 2nd tier, or all IPS (including Impact and Puncture).

I didn't explain about impact/puncture because their effect is pretty pointless. If they are reworked then put into 2nd tier, sure. But seeing how we don't really have enough space for 2nd elements, I was just assuming get rid of them.

12 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Innate Slash isn't anywhere near as prominent, in large part because IPS Slash doesn't often have great odds to proc once you throw in other elemental mods - especially primed ones - and also because forced procs can couple with crit-based weapons and get the bonuses of crit multipliers that status-based weapons don't.

I understand there are HM or heavy attack force crit method. But slash from IPS is still relevant, this is especially stand out on those slash melee weapon.

15 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

As far as I'm concerned, we definitely don't need more elements considering we suffer from things like Blast being the abysmal thing it is. DE seems to struggle making existing elements both unique and competitive. Adding more won't help that.

The blast needs rework I agree. Adding more element type might actually be a good thing. Right now we are limit to 2x 2nd tier cor/blast, mag/gas, vrl/rad, or tier 2+tier 1. If we add more element we could see more interesting combination, and more room for IPS effect to move to 2nd tier.

18 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

"Slash deals true damage so it doesn't fit with Impact and Puncture procs that are much less useful, so let's give true damage advantages to Impact and Puncture so that Impact procs convert like 200% of Impact damage to true damage on proc and Puncture gives enemies a debuff allowing 10% of incoming damage to bypass armour".

Again slash is do good damage so I am not sure how to bring impact/puncture to same position if they all stay in base tier element. Slash already have its unique place because it work against armor, while toxic against shield.

If we just make every element in this game do damage, this game will become even more power-creep'd.

[Tyreaus]

3 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I didn't explain about impact/puncture because their effect is pretty pointless. If they are reworked then put into 2nd tier, sure. But seeing how we don't really have enough space for 2nd elements, I was just assuming get rid of them.

I mean, if we're just going to get rid of Impact and Puncture procs, why not have all IPS elements proc Bleed? Kind of solves the "Slash is an outlier" bit without having to muck around with the positioning of IPS, right?

5 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

I understand there are HM or heavy attack force crit method. But slash from IPS is still relevant, this is especially stand out on those slash melee weapon.

Relevant doesn't mean overly prominent, though. Kind of gets at what others were saying about the bonus damages on Impact and Puncture - which are also relevant, but probably not overtly prominent - being competitive with Slash procs.

14 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

The blast needs rework I agree. Adding more element type might actually be a good thing. Right now we are limit to 2x 2nd tier cor/blast, mag/gas, vrl/rad, or tier 2+tier 1. If we add more element we could see more interesting combination, and more room for IPS effect to move to 2nd tier.

While yes, we could see more interesting combinations, we could also see more shoddy ones. As I said: we've got issues with the 10 non-IPS elements we have. Adding another primary element means adding 5 more elements. And like I said with regards to synergies: we're asking someone to clean a football field that hasn't tidied up their own backyard. Nothing technically stops them from being able to do that, but the odds aren't good.

17 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

Again slash is do good damage so I am not sure how to bring impact/puncture to same position if they all stay in base tier element. Slash already have its unique place because it work against armor, while toxic against shield.

While I do agree the organization of the current damage system is a mess (and I pointed out as much when they first proposed Slash not bypassing shields), I don't think that answers the question I asked about what was wrong with that suggestion.

18 minutes ago, Godmode_Ash said:

If we just make every element in this game do damage, this game will become even more power-creep'd.

With regards to Impact and Puncture specifically: would it? Because they would be doing nothing that Slash couldn't - that is, bypass armour in some form. The power creep, if any, already occurred; the change just brings other pieces up to par.

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, Godmode_Ash said:

It IS the best overall physical type. Good against high armor grinner, infested, and more dmg than impact against non-shield corpus.

Puncture/impact doesn't come close to slash.

Except puncture deals more damage up to the point where you for some reason need more than around 2 seconds to kill a enemy with just raw damage (and any combo of viral/corrosive/heat) against said grineer, is better against the only tough infested (deimos ones) and against probably the most relevant, best vs bosses and sentients.
Impact isnt bad either as its effectively neutral due to how the hp/armor/shield types stack up, its just its proc is tied to a not-finished mechanic after the just stagger bit.

So no, they very much do come close to it as damage types as are all. Heat maybe a exception because it actually can stack to stupid levels as it refreshes, but that requires enemies where you really wouldnt use weapons anymore but just drop the beat.

[Godmode_Ash]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

So no, they very much do come close to it as damage types as are all.

In low level yeah, anything works for low level.

But for high level grinner with 90%+ armor reduction. slash still > puncture

[Teridax68]

On one hand, I can agree that IPS is going to be impossible to balance so long as Slash remains a better anti-armor damage type than Puncture. I also think it's kind of silly to have almost every weapon deal three different damage and status types as a baseline before even factoring in status mods, and I'd like to simplify that. However, I think the OP's proposal raises a few issues:

• Removing status effects from physical damage types means status-based, physical damage-dealing weapons end up broken until modded for elemental damage.
• More of a personal objection, but I think we have way too many damage types already, and introducing a fifth element would not be in way needed when most of our damage and status types are currently redundant and/or underwhelming. I'd rather buff or rework the effects we have now before adding more.
• Slash status being made available on every weapon creates the problem of every weapon potentially ending up being modded to apply that effect. Viral + Heat is already the dominant meta, and if we're choosing Blast to inherit Slash's status effect (why Blast?), then its competition with Viral for Cold elemental mods means the meta will either remain Viral + Heat, or shift to something like Blast + Corrosive, which would bring us back to our Damage 2.0 meta.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Godmode_Ash said:

In low level yeah, anything works for low level.

But for high level grinner with 90%+ armor reduction. slash still > puncture

Pretty sure everything from the rubico and corinth prime to akbolto prime popping the head of grineer disagree even in those scenarios.
You might have a argument once we add eximus factor and ramp up armor to 97.88%+ armor and some 100k raw hp but then you come back to the prior point that at worst you're just using forced procs then or if smart use abilities that just trivialize the enemy because DE sure as hell doesnt want you playing at those levels with how trash and repeatedly nerfed rewards and/or efficiency for anything over 15~20 min.

[MacIntoc]

I would suggest that slash proc doesn't bypass armor and shield by default. And to make puncture and impact procs permit slash proc to progressively bypass armor and shield.