Yet another jab at Void Storms

[Dzarael]

I returned from hibernation to check out new stuff. And what i saw after completing new RJ relic opener: a slug. Grineer is the fastest, but still at least 4-5min. And Axi Corpus storms will teake at least 10min FOR 1 FKN RELIC. It's twice at long as 1 rotation of survival. As many peoples already said, besides farming Savagoth/Epitaph  thereis no point to run them. And what rewards are: formentioned parts, Endo(ahaha), void traces(more ahaha), radiant relics(which you can get at ESO faster) and proxima resources bundle?(no one goes on fissers to farm resources).

I'll try to scream at the mountain and propose yes another solution.

1)Clean up reward table. Make endo guaranteed, less per mission but guaranteed; remove traces from table and change amount that quired from relics(from 6-30 to 20-60); and throw resource bundle into garbage bin where it belongs. Increse drop chance(or quantity) of relics

and/or

2) Let players open more than 1 relic per mission AND keep ALL items from them. Or if not al, then determine in how many times average Storm longer than average gorund Fissure and allow that amount ofi tems being taken

[(NSW)Greybones]

Yikes at your second suggestion.

You uh... you really think the game should be balanced around efficiency?

Why not play the game, vaguely work towards a goal, and let the rewards come as they will? If you're cutting content for yourself because it's not as efficient, that doesn't seem... great 😕

[Dzarael]

36 минут назад, (NSW)Greybones сказал:

Yikes at your second suggestion.

You uh... you really think the game should be balanced around efficiency?

Why not play the game, vaguely work towards a goal, and let the rewards come as they will? If you're cutting content for yourself because it's not as efficient, that doesn't seem... great 😕

How about yes(because this game balanced for nothing). Because like i said after farming Savagoth/Epitaph there is no point to play void storms ever again. They are too slow. And it's not about efficiency it's about rewarding gameplay(which this mode lacks). It certainy "fun" to spend 15min on misson and get bad relic roll. It's like old question: "why do i need to play endless mission longer that 1 rotation cycle if difficulty increases but rewards stays the same". Void storms are more difficult and longer compare to ground missions, but yields near same reward.

And in the end i don't care how DE decides to enhance this gamemod as lon as it gives reason to play it(even if it just more void traces per mission)

[(NSW)Greybones]

I see.

You seem to know how the game is balanced, so you'll know that most non-railjack missions and relic cracking (if you engage with them without being a walking warcrime) will take roughly 10 - 20 minutes to complete. Railjack's time taken to crack a relic isn't absurd; it's just that you can't obliterate everything with a sneeze like standard missions.

I can see that doesn't make you happy. Because it's not rewarding fast enough.

You do you, though. Personally, I'll keep running Railjack 'cause I like it, and the relic cracking is a pretty cool addition 👍

[Dzarael]

19 минут назад, (NSW)Greybones сказал:

I see.

You seem to know how the game is balanced, so you'll know that most non-railjack missions and relic cracking (if you engage with them without being a walking warcrime) will take roughly 10 - 20 minutes to complete. Railjack's time taken to crack a relic isn't absurd; it's just that you can't obliterate everything with a sneeze like standard missions.

I can see that doesn't make you happy. Because it's not rewarding fast enough.

You do you, though. Personally, I'll keep running Railjack 'cause I like it, and the relic cracking is a pretty cool addition 👍

you mised 2 points here.

1)Not a single ground mission takes 10-20 min for ONE round. I can spend 20min in one ground mission, but it will be endless mission and in this time i'll crack form 4 relics in survival, and up to 8 in disruotion,

2) It's not "not rewarding fast enough" it's "not rewarding enough for effort put in". Example: Veil Proxima storm with radiant relic. After spending 15min as a revard you get forma blueprint, 7(FKN SEVEN!!!!) Void Traces(relic open) and 1200 Endo(for completion); And lets take axi spy fissure which will take 5min to copmplete for getting same stuff(except endo). This way "you" feel less bad because you spend less time(which is also a resoure). That's what puts me off. For same reason Orphix is better than Eidolon(it's not speed its reward to effort ratio).

[(NSW)Greybones]

What non-railjack relic cracking missions do you usually engage in?

There’s variations of nearly every mission type

[Dzarael]

4 минуты назад, (NSW)Greybones сказал:

What relic cracking missions do you usually engage in?

There’s variations of nearly every mission type

all non-endless prefering capture, extermination and rescue, and form endless i prefer interseption, excavation() and disruption trying to avoid defence and survival(i dothem only when i need to level-up something)

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, Dzarael said:

all non-endless prefering capture, extermination and rescue, and form endless i prefer interseption, excavation() and disruption trying to avoid defence and survival(i dothem only when i need to level-up something)

And you engage with them at the highest level of equipment for maximum killing speed?

[Dzarael]

7 минут назад, (NSW)Greybones сказал:

And you engage with them at the highest level of equipment for maximum killing speed?

Some times yes, some times not. Most of the time i pick whatever weapon i feel like, without particular preference. As for frames i pick Limbo(mostly because of his fassion), Harrow, or Gauss because they are my favorites and fun to play.

[(NSW)Greybones]

46 minutes ago, Dzarael said:

Some times yes, some times not. Most of the time i pick whatever weapon i feel like, without particular preference. As for frames i pick Limbo(mostly because of his fassion), Harrow, or Gauss because they are my favorites and fun to play.

So when I say “When we engage in most non-railjack relic cracking missions not as walking warcrimes, but on the same level, where enemies last longer than 4 seconds, and resistances are actually important to consider, and there's actual risk of failure by death or objective destruction”, you’ve been through that, and you know how long it can take to complete those missions?

(as an aside I just did an Axi Exterminate, and it took me 11 minutes and I died 3 times because I was trying to rush. And I was slightly overpowered to where I could be more careless than usual)

edit: (argh, and my defense objective was just destroyed on Wave 3, and I was already pushing 8 minutes)

[Dzarael]

26 минут назад, (NSW)Greybones сказал:

So when I say “When we engage in most non-railjack relic cracking missions not as walking warcrimes, but on the same level, where enemies last longer than 4 seconds, complete with risk of failure by death”, you’ve been through that, and you know how long it can take to complete those missions?

(as an aside I just did an Axi Exterminate, and it took me 11 minutes and I died 3 times because I was trying to rush. And I was slightly overpowered to where I could be more careless than usual)

I also just did Extermination on Pluto and it took me 7min35sec to complete(got down once), and to achive such results i deliberately picked my non modded ballistica prime(it's even doesn't have potato installed), Pulmonars and paper thin 0 forma Banshee prime. I'm needed actively put my self at disadvantage to have such time. Don't know what do you refer as "walking warcrimes"(if it's buids that melts Steel Path, then i dont have them), but axi fissure its 40+ lvl enemies and you don't need death-star prime to kill them, you just need weapon that's not stug. Most of time spent on RJ missions comes not from enemies, but depending on the objective. If grineer nissions it's a kill bunch of ships and do 1-2 quick tasks, Corpus missions is more dependent on RNG that ranges from shoot some glowing bulbs on the ship to go station and do hacking. This stations is the main cause of time loss espetially if it's Aurax robo factory which is huge and jammers can spawn very far away forsing to go back and forth(it's problem even in non fissure missions).

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 hours ago, Dzarael said:

I also just did Extermination on Pluto and it took me 7min35sec to complete(got down once), and to achive such results i deliberately picked my non modded ballistica prime(it's even doesn't have potato installed), Pulmonars and paper thin 0 forma Banshee prime. I'm needed actively put my self at disadvantage to have such time. Don't know what do you refer as "walking warcrimes"(if it's buids that melts Steel Path, then i dont have them), but axi fissure its 40+ lvl enemies and you don't need death-star prime to kill them, you just need weapon that's not stug. Most of time spent on RJ missions comes not from enemies, but depending on the objective. If grineer nissions it's a kill bunch of ships and do 1-2 quick tasks, Corpus missions is more dependent on RNG that ranges from shoot some glowing bulbs on the ship to go station and do hacking. This stations is the main cause of time loss espetially if it's Aurax robo factory which is huge and jammers can spawn very far away forsing to go back and forth(it's problem even in non fissure missions).

Yeah sorry, I did make some assumptions that "walking warcrime" was basically common lingo, but thinking about it now, that was sort of a dumb expectation (it's a dumb term). You are correct that that's what I was referring to.

I'm perpetually playing the game with builds that try to match the enemies on their level. I got really bored of instantly killing everything, so I tailor my loadout to the mission so that no matter what mission I'm doing (except the really really low level stuff like Earth; I have to take an unleveled Warframe with Bleeding and Decaying Dragon Keys before they start threatening me), I have to keep on my toes. And as a result, things take longer.

You experienced it too when you did that exterminate just then, didn't you? 7min 30 secs is not 10 mins, sure, but if we tackle a mission and come crawling out the other side, battered and bruised but alive, it takes more time to go through them than if we built for guaranteed victory with near-instant TTKs. (and yeah, I think I’d revise my original claim of “10-20 mins” to more like “roughly 7-20 mins”)

Obviously I can't speak on behalf of what DE intended, but I feel like they tend to balance around just being able to finish a mission, instead of balancing around finishing a mission as a mobile blender in 3 minutes. So when I hear that Railjack relic cracking missions take 4 - 10 minutes, I'm looking through my own long history of scraping through missions and skirting failure, and how long those missions took to complete, and I'm like "That doesn't sound so bad".

That's pretty much the perspective I had when I barged into your topic. I can respect that your later points might be problems to you (as an aside, I just plain love hearing people describe what they're gaming experience is like, it's one of my favourite things to see on the forums to see what people do and how they approach content), but ultimately I didn't think that the Railjack Voidstorms sounded so bad.

(Gonna have a look at timing how long it takes me to do them, thanks for the inspiration 👍)

[(NSW)Greybones]

Regardless of whether or not we see eye-to-eye on Railjack void being too much effort and not enough reward, the fact that you had a go at being on the same page as me regarding “Doing missions without god-like builds” gave a boost in respect 🍻 

[XAN3MK]

10 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Obviously I can't speak on behalf of what DE intended, but I feel like they tend to balance around just being able to finish a mission, instead of balancing around finishing a mission as a mobile blender in 3 minutes.

If that was their intention, they failed spectacularly at it. We didn't magically become walking warcrimes moving at mach 2, DE provided it us with the tools to get there. Putting them and balance into the same sentence is going to raise and eyebrow, because I doubt any thought was put into actually balancing things, given that we have arsenal that strips the most challenging content of this game 10 times over.

You don't get to complain that people have mathematically removed slog out of the game by using the tools the developers provided them with.

And when it comes to RJ specifically, the problem is not that it takes longer, but that it is not rewarding for the time it takes, not to mention that the loot tables are absolutely nonsensical. Having a reward slot wasted on 1200 Endo feels like an insult, not reward, when you get 3 times as much from scraping all the wreck you get from that run.
That being said, I still like RJ (except the Corpus defense nodes, that tileset can be given the courtesy of Exterminatus), for a variety of things: 1) It can be enjoyable, in short bursts, 2) Alternative set of fissures when you don't wanna deal with the slog that are grounded defense or interception fissures, 3) and this is a very subjective and situational one, not a lot of people do RJ, which means certain drops in there still hold a steady value in plat due to supply being limited. I can still, easily, move Epitaph sets, Hemorrhage or Carmine Penta parts.

Considering we've done this "dance" before, no, I'll answer few questions that might arise - No, I will not deliberately nerf myself to make trivial content challenging. The developers gave me the tools that I currently posses, it is only fair for me to expect them to provide me with adequate challenge and compensate me accordingly for the time and effort that it takes me to go through it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

10 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

Considering we've done this "dance" before, no, I'll answer few questions that might arise - No, I will not deliberately nerf myself to make trivial content challenging. The developers gave me the tools that I currently posses, it is only fair for me to expect them to provide me with adequate challenge and compensate me accordingly for the time and effort that it takes me to go through it.

🙄 Then, assuming you actually want challenge, you are absolutely free to make yourself bored, waiting for an idea that either can’t or won’t be delivered upon.

They also gave me the tools that I currently possess, many of them the same ones you have, and I’m using them to not be bored

[XAN3MK]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

🙄 Then, assuming you actually want challenge, you are absolutely free to make yourself bored, waiting for an idea that either can’t or won’t be delivered upon.

They also gave me the tools that I currently possess, many of them the same ones you have, and I’m using them to not be bored

I'm not going to artificially challenge myself, especially not in an online, live, game. No, not going to be bored, I'm just going to play something else. If Warframe is not going to give me a compelling reason to play, I'll just move to something else until it does (or an update with a bunch of new toys comes along to keep us busy/experimenting with them)

[(NSW)Greybones]

33 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

I'm not going to artificially challenge myself, especially not in an online, live, game. No, not going to be bored, I'm just going to play something else. If Warframe is not going to give me a compelling reason to play, I'll just move to something else until it does (or an update with a bunch of new toys comes along to keep us busy/experimenting with them)

You know those strict stat increase mods? The ones that only increase your health and armour and damage?

You say you’re not going to “artificially” challenge yourself. What value do those strict stat-increasing mods have when you’ve got other augment, QoL, or exilus mods you can replace them with?

If you can equip a string of Number Increasing Mods to trivialise content, what’s the hang-up on equipping a string of not-that to be threatened? Those other mods are just as much tools that the game gives us as the stat-increasing ones

If you don’t want to fail, if you aren’t good at games, if for whatever reason you find yourself dying too fast and not killing fast enough (whatever the reason), those options are there to rectify that! I wasn’t complaining that people were completing things in 3 minutes as mobile blenders, I was stating a straw-person fact. Many of them enjoy the feeling of being overpowered (it can be… tricky, if it starts establishing the wrong expectations, mind)

A problem I see is when people are making themselves bored while doing it, and then complaining without trying alternative approaches to the approach that’s making them bored.

[XAN3MK]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

You know those strict stat increase mods? The ones that only increase your health and armour and damage?

You say you’re not going to “artificially” challenge yourself. What value do those strict stat-increasing mods have when you’ve got other augment, QoL, or exilus mods you can replace them with?

If you can equip a string of Number Increasing Mods to trivialise content, what’s the hang-up on equipping a string of not-that to be threatened? Those other mods are just as much tools that the game gives us as the stat-increasing ones

If you don’t want to fail, if you aren’t good at games, if for whatever reason you find yourself dying too fast and not killing fast enough (whatever the reason), those options are there to rectify that! I wasn’t complaining that people were completing things in 3 minutes as mobile blenders, I was stating a straw-person fact. Many of them enjoy the feeling of being overpowered (it can be… tricky, if it starts establishing the wrong expectations, mind)

A problem I see is when people are making themselves bored while doing it, and then complaining without trying alternative approaches to the approach that’s making them bored.

It is not about whether you can replace them, but whether there is something better to replace them with. As I said, I'm not going to deliberately make a bad choice when I know there are better ones, I find no satisfaction in using a worse build so I can be challenged by content that I *know* is trivial when using a build that is put together accordingly.

If you have the tools to not fail, why would you remove them? So you can set yourself up for failure? That line of thinking is completely devoid of any semblance of logic.

"Expectations" might have not been the appropriate word. I have no expectations for Warframe at this point, simply because I've no faith that DE will deliver on them. I take the game for what it is, either coming to terms with the mess and finding something of enjoyment in it or just take a prolonged break from the game. After 8 years with the game, through varying level of commitment, it'd be naive of me to be unaware of which way the wind is blowing.

As for your last statement, I... can understand people that desperately try to find reason to play a game that they want to play despite the game not making any effort to throw them anything compelling. It can be a grueling experience. That being said, if I have to struggle and look for the entertaining or compelling things to do in a game, the game is likely past the point at which it can actually do that and as a player, you are better off taking a break until something of note happens or dropping the game altogether.

[(NSW)Greybones]

35 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

If you have the tools to not fail, why would you remove them? So you can set yourself up for failure? That line of thinking is completely devoid of any semblance of logic.

If you can't cut it without your stat-increasing mods, that's fair. That's why they're there!

Removing them doesn't automatically make you fail, though. If you're looking for a good fight, enter a mission with equipment suited for it (the right tool for the right job). And those missions can still be rewarding, I only recently got the last part for Gara from a level 5-15 bounty. I don't open the console in a game and god-mode my way through for a reason.

If you're looking to just get the fight over and done with ASAP in the search for a fast grind, you can do that too. Right tool for the right job.

Right now I'm hearing you say "I don't want to be challenged unless the game forces me to be". This game has Super Easy Mode, and Hard Mode, and you're choosing the first until you're forced to choose the latter. (though technically the game has the entire spectrum in between as well thanks to the flexibility of the modding system)

And yes, Hard Mode has a chance of failure. Because of reasons. Reasons like "Well it wouldn't be Hard Mode if I could breeze through. And I chose it, so I'm not looking to breeze through".

Also, I really hope that last statement wasn't directed at me. Because that'd be quite a lot of arrogance at your assumption and an insult to some of the fun aspects of this game.

[(NSW)Greybones]

43 minutes ago, XAN3MK said:

It is not about whether you can replace them, but whether there is something better to replace them with. As I said, I'm not going to deliberately make a bad choice when I know there are better ones, I find no satisfaction in using a worse build so I can be challenged by content that I *know* is trivial when using a build that is put together accordingly.

What makes those mods better, though? Is increased numbers really all that important? You're past the point where it matters for most of the content, so... what's the superglue made of that keeps those mods stuck in those slots?

If you're looking for a challenge, then those mods have lost their value the moment you lost the challenge, right? There's all these other mods that will have value beyond just numbers, like QoL and augments. That would mean that at that tipping point, which is different for different parts of the game, the balance has shifted from stat-increase to alternative playstyles, yeah?

[XAN3MK]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

If you can't cut it without your stat-increasing mods, that's fair. That's why they're there!

Removing them doesn't automatically make you fail, though. If you're looking for a good fight, enter a mission with equipment suited for it (the right tool for the right job). I don't open the console in a game and god-mode my way through for a reason.

Right now I'm hearing you say "I don't want to be challenged unless the game forces me to be". This game has Super Easy Mode, and Hard Mode, and you're choosing the first until you're forced to choose the latter

Also, I really hope that last statement wasn't directed at me. Because that'd be quite a lot of arrogance at your assumption and an insult to some of the fun aspects of this game.

That's tortured logic. Why would you wanna "cut it" without stat-increasing mods if you have access to them? So you can slog through the same content that would otherwise be done in a fraction of the time? It's the equivalent of nailing you feet to the floor and calling walking a challenge in the aftermath. Sure, it is a challenge, but it is also utter nonsense.

Your view of the "right tool for the right job" is incredibly absurd. If you are tasked with exterminating the map from the infestation, you don't bring a nerfgun, you bring a frame that can deleting everything on the tile from existence. If the game has no answer for that approach, that is not my problem, it's the game's job to provide answer to my approach, to for me to gimp myself to accommodate the game's inadequacy to do so.

The challenge needs to be "forced" (a strong word, but fits the context) to feel genuine. The game needs to stack the odds against you, at your current power level, for surmounting that challenge to be satisfactory. Clearing Earth with unmodded frame and a Lato is not a challenge, it's a dull, boring, slog. A waste of time.

No, that statement was at anyone who desperately tries to find something compelling in a game that they want to enjoy playing, yet the game doesn't reciprocate that. It was a general statement.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, XAN3MK said:

That's tortured logic. Why would you wanna "cut it" without stat-increasing mods if you have access to them? So you can slog through the same content that would otherwise be done in a fraction of the time? It's the equivalent of nailing you feet to the floor and calling walking a challenge in the aftermath. Sure, it is a challenge, but it is also utter nonsense.

Your view of the "right tool for the right job" is incredibly absurd. If you are tasked with exterminating the map from the infestation, you don't bring a nerfgun, you bring a frame that can deleting everything on the tile from existence. If the game has no answer for that approach, that is not my problem, it's the game's job to provide answer to my approach, to for me to gimp myself to accommodate the game's inadequacy to do so.

The challenge needs to be "forced" (a strong word, but fits the context) to feel genuine. The game needs to stack the odds against you, at your current power level, for surmounting that challenge to be satisfactory. Clearing Earth with unmodded frame and a Lato is not a challenge, it's a dull, boring, slog. A waste of time.

No, that statement was at anyone who desperately tries to find something compelling in a game that they want to enjoy playing, yet the game doesn't reciprocate that. It was a general statement.

Ah, okay about the statement. I getcha 👍

Regarding the other stuff; then it sure sounds like you aren't looking for a challenge.

If you don't enjoy playing the game for its mechanics, then I don't think being forced to play it will make you happy either.

What is it that you are looking for? The ability to mop up the map with your powerful build, but still run the risk of failing? I'm getting conflicting messages here; you want to be powerful, and you want that power to be not-so-powerful. You want to clean the map of enemies, but you still want to have a chance at dying, so that as you're mulching everything, you're on the edge of failure?

Are you looking for the Dynasty Warriors school of game design?

[XAN3MK]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What makes those mods better, though? Is increased numbers really all you value? You're past the point where it matters, so... what's the superglue made of that keeps those mods stuck in those slots?

If you're looking for a challenge, then those mods have lost their value the moment you lost the challenge, right?

As long as DE design content that can be solved with "number go up", "number go up" will be *the* value. Either that or give us content that'll appropriate tackle and challenge the players that are far up the power curve.

Refer to my previous reply for answer - the challenge need to demanding to feel genuine. You are supposed to rise up to the challenge, not reduce yourself to make things "challenging" for you. For the lack of better example, think of Monster Hunter: World's arch tempered Elders or even some of the late fights in Iceborne, like Furious Rajang, Alatreon or Fatalis, fights that were expecting, if not outright demanding, that you are accordingly decked out in end-game equipment to even stand a chance, otherwise you'd just get your s*it pushed in.

As a closing point, I just want to state that I'm fully aware that Warframe is not a challenging game and it is not attempting to be one (or if it does, it fails spectacularly at being that), but I like to entertain the idea that DE will eventually see the value in providing adequate challenge for the players sitting near or at the top of the power curve. Either that or give us mapping tools (akin to Path of Exile) so the players can tune the content accordingly to their needs. Not doing either just seems like a waste potential.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, XAN3MK said:

As a closing point, I just want to state that I'm fully aware that Warframe is not a challenging game and it is not attempting to be one (or if it does, it fails spectacularly at being that), but I like to entertain the idea that DE will eventually see the value in providing adequate challenge for the players sitting near or at the top of the power curve. Either that or give us mapping tools (akin to Path of Exile) so the players can tune the content accordingly to their needs. Not doing either just seems like a waste potential.

Alright, it sounds like this conversation's wrapping up (fair enough; it's gotten really off-topic).

Wait. Tuning the content accordingly to their needs. That's- no, off-topic enough.

You don't need to answer my questions in the previous post 👍. It's been a good chat. Even though we don't agree on it, it's been nice to see a different perspective

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

-You got a point about 5 mins per relic..   I dont know how that could be addressed.  People are not going to RAD multiple relics at a time.  Railjack certainly doesnt need to be that short...

-Volatile and Defense are some god awful nodes....

-That kill the anti-hack drone objective is horrible!!!

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However... man I gotta disagree with you.   I love Void Storms!! 

Free RAD relics?? Yes please!!! Void Storms are WAAAAAAAY funner than ESO so screw ESO having rad relics.   Also screw PT phase 1-3 rad relics. Void Storm Rad Relics are a KEEPER!!!!!

 BONUS Void trace??  Hell yes!!!  I dont know about others but void trace is feast and famine for me since the beginning.  Build it up for months and then blow it on new relics and repeat.   I never can refill it and RAD up a bunch of extra relics between new relics...  This is a tiny step towards that!! If anything this reward needs to be more common and bigger amounts lol.   

I dont know about void storms but the high level RJ missions give forma which is like what im usually trying for when i farm void trace.   So that could free me up to use the bazillion relics I have that dont have forma lol.   

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I am gonna try to push everyone to do void storms over normal fissures lol.   Its so much funner than regular fissures and the new rewards are nicer.   

If they would just address craphole stupid missions and nodes!!    Volatile COULD be tweaked and made fun.   Orphix COULD be tweaked and made FUN.   That horrible defense tile could be changed!!.