New War Story Theory: Implications moving forward

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

On 2021-10-08 at 5:48 AM, Loza03 said:

My guess is that, if she does live, she'll hang up the hat of the mission operator role. Possibly by virtue of again betraying the Sentients, but not in the same way.

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She's wearing Magic Shackles and is in the classic damsel in distress pose whilst off-camera in this shot, Ballas looms over her.

 

She's been gone since 2017 now so we're coming up on 4 years since the Apostacy Prologue (late December 2017 I'm pretty sure). 

And also from that quest: It seemed she left pretty willingly. And as much as it maybe difficult for most of the playerbase to accept (I think we're almost split 50/50 on the save/kill debate)

She's the biggest threat we've faced. And even if it's not of her own will: She could very well see Death as her redemption. 

Which is why I'm leaning more towards a decision between letting her go out on her own terms a "noble sacrifice" decision or an approach where her end is by our Operators hand.

Which could potentially set up Erra as a bigger villian. And I haven't even gotten to where Ballas could fit into this. Who I think is going to find a way to get away. 

I think this quest will hit really really hard.

[PublikDomain]

Rather than what happens with Lotus, I'm much more interested in what happens with the factions. The taglines for the ads I keep getting on Facebook mention "unite the factions", so either that's just referencing Kahl and Vegeto working together during the story missions or they mean uniting the whole Corpus and Grineer. And idk how the heck they expect that to happen.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Rather than what happens with Lotus, I'm much more interested in what happens with the factions. The taglines for the ads I keep getting on Facebook mention "unite the factions", so either that's just referencing Kahl and Vegeto working together during the story missions or they mean uniting the whole Corpus and Grineer. And idk how the heck they expect that to happen.

I seriously have no idea either. And that's also why I'm leaning heavily towards Lotus/Natah not surviving this either. If somehow we have to unite the Grineer and Corpus against the Sentients.

How do you explain to them you let her live? 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

Double post for some reason. 

The only way I see any form of unification is with the Entrati, Fortuna and Ostron. Maybe our Syndicate alignment might also come into play but I doubt that

But I just don't see the Grineer and Corpus joining forces. That just sounds ugly.

[Loza03]

39 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

She's been gone since 2017 now so we're coming up on 4 years since the Apostacy Prologue (late December 2017 I'm pretty sure). 

And also from that quest: It seemed she left pretty willingly. And as much as it maybe difficult for most of the playerbase to accept (I think we're almost split 50/50 on the save/kill debate)

She's the biggest threat we've faced. And even if it's not of her own will: She could very well see Death as her redemption. 

Which is why I'm leaning more towards a decision between letting her go out on her own terms a "noble sacrifice" decision or an approach where her end is by our Operators hand.

Which could potentially set up Erra as a bigger villian. And I haven't even gotten to where Ballas could fit into this. Who I think is going to find a way to get away. 

I think this quest will hit really really hard.

I agree. Although 'Natah becomes a separate character that independently chooses to side with the Tenno because on some fundamental level, they're the same ultimately good and well-meaning person down different paths' would be my preference because I feel like it has the most narrative potential, it doesn't have other potential that makes sense. Namely, redemption=death still offers a kill path, giving players some meaningful agency within the quest (especially if there were diverging missions from each choice - maybe killing her lets you unlock a door for one mission, whilst letting her live causes her to reveal a hidden weakness you exploit, leading to a brief diverging path, or possibly a  whilst not forcing the story down two different narrative paths long term. Simple fact of the matter, studios bigger than DE don't have the resources to make that work.

Moreover, it at least mostly-satisfies both, especially if the choice follows a boss fight. The kill crowd gets the satisfaction of a kill, whilst the save crowd has some remaining quality time with mother/child ass-kicking.

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Double post for some reason. 

The only way I see any form of unification is with the Entrati, Fortuna and Ostron. Maybe our Syndicate alignment might also come into play but I doubt that

But I just don't see the Grineer and Corpus joining forces. That just sounds ugly.

Entrati/Fortuna/Ostron seems a good bet for a permanent alliance, but there's a lot of potential for a temporary truce between the two main factions. Imagine the conversations between Salad, Hek, and the Operator all at once. Lots of potential for both dramatic setpieces and comedic relief. And of course, it all falls apart at the end, business as usual, but at least some of our more personal allies have managed to stick to the peace, and we've saved the system into at least a little better of a place than when we let it get in danger.

Maybe they could even pull a Halo 3 'The Covenant' and have a brief setpiece where the Infestation recognises the sentients as an existential threat, and also comes to our aid (or at least accepts non-aggression) - albeit in a typically creepy fashion of course.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

33 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 redemption=death still offers a kill path, giving players some meaningful agency within the quest.

I think it's the way it'll go because of how the Sentients (and Natah) will wage this war. The gameplay component of Teshin is prime example as why I feel she's not making it out alive no matter the outcome of our decisions.

You literally see Grineer imprisoned. Why? My thoughts are they are about to go under some form of transformation. Just look at how Ballas is looking right now.

"Don't be afraid" right?

Harvest and conversion is what I predict. Do you think the Lotus can live with herself having taken part in this? Or put the Tenno through fighting this war?

I think we all know the answer to that. And the thing is the section of the playerbase that thinks saving her is virtuous....well her morals are thrown out the window whether she likes it or not. Genocide is genocide, even if it means a transformation (ME Andromeda comes to mind with this)

So her only path for redemption will likely be giving her life to save the Tenno. If there is multiple paths, I'd down for that.

There was talk about a Stalker Syndicate a while back, who's to say there can't be a Lotus one?  Save/Kill or whatever decision, there could be some interesting interactions and applications with that.

I think if you go the multiple path route it has to have a more meaningful impact then "you saved her" and "you killed her" 

Which is why I also think the Noble Sacrifice/Kill Natah route is the way to go.

[Grizzmoe]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I think it's the way it'll go because of how the Sentients (and Natah) will wage this war. The gameplay component of Teshin is prime example as why I feel she's not making it out alive no matter the outcome of our decisions.

You literally see Grineer imprisoned. Why? My thoughts are they are about to go under some form of transformation. Just look at how Ballas is looking right now.

"Don't be afraid" right?

Harvest and conversion is what I predict.

You would predict correctly my friend, this is why the sentients where working with Alad V in the clouds, the amalgamations where just a test, to see If the conversation of other races into sentients was even possible.

But this also begs a big question. How exactly do we know that they didn't use this same process on the Lotus to forcefully bring her back to the side of the sentients?

After all the sentients need her for somthing "All it needs is a voice. A spark." "Mothers gone! But you have her fire. And more." "You can finish what she started" "Finish the war natah!" It seems that the sentients are really banking on the Lotus to be somthing game changing for them.

Another thing that we saw from the Scarlett spear cutscene was that when Natah became suspicious and began to ask Erra questions, Erra forced her into into the machine.

 The pre New War cutscene so far are trying to push the idea that the Lotus never defected because she cared for the Tenno, but rather that she was captured and brain washed by the Orokin. when in reality it could be that the sentients are the ones that captured and brain washed her.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

9 hours ago, Harvenger76 said:

You would predict correctly my friend, this is why the sentients where working with Alad V in the clouds, the amalgamations where just a test, to see If the conversation of other races into sentients was even possible.

But this also begs a big question. How exactly do we know that they didn't use this same process on the Lotus to forcefully bring her back

I think what it boils down to is her original purpose. Going right back to the point of Alad V in the clouds. She gave him the means create the Amaglgams, even sacrificing one of her own people knowingly, The Ropalolyst. 

Judging by that dialog from that interaction she seemed to be knowing exactly what she was doing.

I'm not discounting the fact that she was captured and potentially brainwashed by the Orokin where she then mimicked Margulis to become the Lotus. But also, that was her purpose. She was meant to manipulate everyone. 

But what if it goes even further. That her capture and brainwashing is an additional aspect of her mission that wasn't disclosed to her, to gain that advantage? Point is the manipulation can run deeper. Apart of a bigger plan that wasn't disclosed to her?

The cutscene from Scarlett Spear where Erra drops Ballas leash for example: That could all be part of the show.

Now that could make Natah even more of a victim from another perspective BUT: Her orgional mission is clearly to infiltrate, influence and sabatoge from within. 

The biggest point is: You can't ever take what she says or does at face value. Because that's literally her original purpose. At the end of the day:

She's Sentient. It's her people, her nature. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

[CrimsonXX]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Just because I want to play the "bad guy" dosent make me or other players automatically an "incel" so let's keep that stuff out of warframe discussion as it could be viewed as a personal attack. I dont want to engage in that sort of discussion. That's not what this community is about. If that's where it's going then this will be my final response to you.

And as I pointed out earlier "saving" the Lotus doesn't necessarily mean she's going to survive. It could very well be a War Within situation where basically we choose how it ends but ultimately not the outcome. And I think DE won't make it that simple either, the quests are written quite well so I expect the unexpected.

But judging by the original trailer I have a feeling we will have more of a choice. Which I honestly hope does happen. If it splits the playerbase with an interesting design I'm all for it. And so is my loadout 👍

Then is "edgelord" a better term, cause labels exist for a reason of denoting where someone falls. For instance "bleeding heart" for myself or even the somewhat rarer but has still been used in the past "SJW" label put towards myself, cause I run contrary to edgelord types. I don't need nor want death, betrayals, or whatever other "dark" and "edgy" b.s. to make stories entertaining to me. Since you've already brought up ME: I ended the original trilogy w/ Paragon 95-99%, having saved the Rachni Queen 2-3 times over, and with the Synthesis ending (which I still standby), instead of either of the more "dark" alternatives that led to some faction dying. Its like calling a Mandarin Orange a Mandarin Orange instead of as an orange, the "Mandarin" denotes/points to a specific type.

The let me clarify: When I say save Lotus, I mean exactly that in getting her away from Ballas/Erra and having her continue the journey with the Tenno as a partner. Including having to face her own race, while potentially trying to pull some over to her side (since at some point Tau is going to be a thing which will have an entire civilization of sorts of Sentients). If DE "isn't making it that simple" then it only further goes into what I'd want. Diving into the complex storyline is the saving Lotus/Natah route, since it'd involve exploring who she is behind the Orokin brainwashing and Sentient manipulation; hell even touching on the victimization done to her by the parties; having her trying to potentially pull other Sentients to some peaceful co-existence vs the stalwart destructive ones; the exploration of how Sentients and Tenno are mirrors to one another; having her stand as a counter-balance to Teshin; etc that are all complex storylines vs. "she's bad, kill her" "she's a mother figure that needs to sacrifice herself to signal maturation of the Tenno" (which is already an aggravating tropes in itself) "I want to be a lone Tenno badass so she should die/sacrifice herself" options that just continue the status quo. As for War Within, if you're referring to the "flashbacks" those are dealing with past events not current ones like New War is. Its easier to work around a flashback, especially one that doesn't feature cinematics that have to accommodate choices vs. a current event that will/has already featured cinematics. If they want to go big by legit doing full-blown separate paths via choices made, then I'll easily root for them and it'll move them that much more into ME territory (which is my hope for them anyway, for them to shift more into scifi RPG territory). If not then my stance is hardlocked in saving Lotus, having her move into a partner role for the Tenno, and having the future story be about the two of them figuring out both their own dynamics as well as how or where they proceed going forward. I'm opposed to having Lotus/Natah do some cliche af "sacrifice self" b.s. in order to appease the one section of players that want her gone, so they can be "lone Tenno" cause they see that as some form of growing up. I'm 30+ years old w/ both parents alive and well, never needed either of them to pass away in order to signal my move into adulthood (bills, situations that arise from adulthood, etc do that plenty enough on their own).

I've already seen the playerbase "split" once via The Second Dream, which I thankfully aligned mostly with what DE went with. I also so the rage of the edgelords that wanted to literally be in the frames and wanted nothing to do with the Operators cause they're "kids". I will say that them choosing to do a preview with her in shackles does push to the players that she isn't a villain and even plays up the investment players have with her, which goes towards a route where she's saved (my definition) if not going for a choice route.

 

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I think it's the way it'll go because of how the Sentients (and Natah) will wage this war. The gameplay component of Teshin is prime example as why I feel she's not making it out alive no matter the outcome of our decisions.

Natah/Lotus isn't waging the war, its been made abundantly clear that she's just a victim of Ballas/Erra. Also the Teshin bit doesn't really suggest anything, its just a showcase of what certain types love "badass samurai dude doing action".

 

[CrimsonXX]

17 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I agree. Although 'Natah becomes a separate character that independently chooses to side with the Tenno because on some fundamental level, they're the same ultimately good and well-meaning person down different paths' would be my preference because I feel like it has the most narrative potential, it doesn't have other potential that makes sense. Namely, redemption=death still offers a kill path, giving players some meaningful agency within the quest (especially if there were diverging missions from each choice - maybe killing her lets you unlock a door for one mission, whilst letting her live causes her to reveal a hidden weakness you exploit, leading to a brief diverging path, or possibly a  whilst not forcing the story down two different narrative paths long term.

If they were to go that choice route, I'll be honest I hope there's a huge and deep cutting negative consequence for those that do kill her. Missing out on lore or losing access to a portion of tactical info that would've been relayed by having her with you. I already know they wouldn't do something extreme like locking out those types from quest-lines, cause DE tries to keep things open to everyone.

(I'd include this in the other post but can't delete this one afterwards, so instead just going to leave it be  -.-)

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 hour ago, CrimsonXX said:

Then is "edgelord" a better term, cause labels exist for a reason of denoting where someone falls. For instance "bleeding heart" for myself or even the somewhat rarer but has still been used in the past "SJW" label put towards myself, cause I run contrary to edgelord types. I don't need nor want death, betrayals, or whatever other "dark" and "edgy" b.s. to make stories entertaining to me.

 

And that's all fine, but just because you don't want that, dosent mean the ones do want a darker experience have any less value to yours. I mean have you even seen The New War gameplay? It looks pretty dark and edgy to me. Also seems to have alot of death: Corpus, Grineer....Tenno (The dead Rhino).

And it certainly has an ominous feeling of it not ending particularly well. So all the things you don't need, are quite present already. 

Yep. I've been called an "Edgelord" but as I said before I'm not engaging in that type of behavior. My decisions in a videogame do not speak to my character as an individual. So let's stop labeling eachother. I have no room for that negativity, clear? 

1 hour ago, CrimsonXX said:

If they were to go that choice route, I'll be honest I hope there's a huge and deep cutting negative consequence for those that do kill her. Missing out on lore or losing access to a portion of tactical info that would've been relayed by having her with you. I already know they wouldn't do something extreme like locking out those types from quest-lines, cause DE tries to keep things open to everyone.

Well that's not happening already considering The Lotus has been gone for nearly 4 years. So we're not missing out on any of that support. Right now.

I do think there should be consequences for making decisions but it shouldn't be a form of punishment, because that's what your basically advocating for. It's not compelling at all compared to Mass Effect where there is some consequences but there could also be another outcome that's just as satisfying and rewarding. 

And that's for both "good" or "bad" decisions too. There's just as much rewards for being a Paragon as there is for a Renegade. I've played both. I prefer Renegade, but Paragon playthroughs are just as fun.

1 hour ago, CrimsonXX said:

Natah/Lotus isn't waging the war, its been made abundantly clear that she's just a victim of Ballas/Erra. Also the Teshin bit doesn't really suggest anything, its just a showcase of what certain types love "badass samurai dude doing action".

See I don't buy it. Natahs orgional purpose is infiltration, Sabatoge and ultimately destruction of the Orokin Empire. Which was completed right? The Tenno are a means to and end: For everyone. The Tenno did kill off Orokin Leadership sending the Empire into chaos. 

This might be "The New War" but the "Continuation War" is alot more fitting from that perspective. 

She's a Trogan Horse. Even if she went Turncoat, The Tenno still completed that mission. Whether or not it was for The Lotus change of heart for The Tenno or for actually completing that mission (the reason why she's here), it still put the Origin system in the state its in for The Sentients to lauch this new offensive.

We can both agree that she's being manipulated. But to what extent. You could add in she's probably also having an internal conflict with herself.

Loyalty to the Tenno or her family. Ballas and Erra are clearly working together. To what degree is Natah a victim when: She's also a manipulator? 

Which is why I don't buy it. She ultimately could even be manipulating them. So the amount of trust I have for her is zero. 

I also bring up Teshins part because there's a scene specifically where you see Grineer imprisoned and suspended. Which suggests harvesting. Plus when you go back to Kaul before he gets his shotgun there's a Sentient clearly committing what would constitute a war crime, so I'd definitely say they are waging a war of genocide.

So if The Lotus is a virtuous as she might be: Could all be part of the plan. Or if she really is, she'll wake up knowing she was a part of causing an incredible amount of suffering. To everyone, including the Tenno.

So how will she live with that?

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 hour ago, CrimsonXX said:

I've already seen the playerbase "split" once via The Second Dream, which I thankfully aligned mostly with what DE went with. I also so the rage of the edgelords that wanted to literally be in the frames and wanted nothing to do with the Operators cause they're "kids". 

I still think that should be an option. Consider this: The gameplaynof Kaul, Teshin and the Corpus could be potential combat choices for our Operators.

Primary, Secondary and Melee (I think Melee will be Heavily favored) All compelling choices. But I'd add a fourth. Putting our Operators in a Transferrance loop. It's clearly possible considering the Silver Grove and Chains of Harrow Quest, so it's supported within the lore already.

It's not just "edgelords" wanting to choose this path so I say again stop painting everyone with the same brush. More likely its nothing to do with decisions made in the quests. 

Some players might want to simply revert back to gameplay pre Second Dream. And it could be a compelling gameplay choice along with 3 others who don't want to engage in it. Plus there's a lore component that some want to engage in.

So how is that a bad thing? 

[CrimsonXX]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And that's all fine, but just because you don't want that, dosent mean the ones do want a darker experience have any less value to yours. I mean have you even seen The New War gameplay? It looks pretty dark and edgy to me. Also seems to have alot of death: Corpus, Grineer....Tenno (The dead Rhino).

And it certainly has an ominous feeling of it not ending particularly well. So all the things you don't need, are quite present already. 

Yep. I've been called an "Edgelord" but as I said before I'm not engaging in that type of behavior. My decisions in a videogame do not speak to my character as an individual. So let's stop labeling eachother. I have no room for that negativity, clear? 

Well that's not happening already considering The Lotus has been gone for nearly 4 years. So we're not missing out on any of that support. Right now.

I do think there should be consequences for making decisions but it shouldn't be a form of punishment, because that's what your basically advocating for. It's not compelling at all compared to Mass Effect where there is some consequences but there could also be another outcome that's just as satisfying and rewarding. 

And that's for both "good" or "bad" decisions too. There's just as much rewards for being a Paragon as there is for a Renegade. I've played both. I prefer Renegade, but Paragon playthroughs are just as fun.

See I don't buy it. Natahs orgional purpose is infiltration, Sabatoge and ultimately destruction of the Orokin Empire. Which was completed right? The Tenno are a means to and end: For everyone. The Tenno did kill off Orokin Leadership sending the Empire into chaos. 

This might be "The New War" but the "Continuation War" is alot more fitting from that perspective. 

She's a Trogan Horse. Even if she went Turncoat, The Tenno still completed that mission. Whether or not it was for The Lotus change of heart for The Tenno or for actually completing that mission (the reason why she's here), it still put the Origin system in the state its in for The Sentients to lauch this new offensive.

We can both agree that she's being manipulated. But to what extent. You could add in she's probably also having an internal conflict with herself.

Loyalty to the Tenno or her family. Ballas and Erra are clearly working together. To what degree is Natah a victim when: She's also a manipulator? 

Which is why I don't buy it. She ultimately could even be manipulating them. So the amount of trust I have for her is zero. 

I also bring up Teshins part because there's a scene specifically where you see Grineer imprisoned and suspended. Which suggests harvesting. Plus when you go back to Kaul before he gets his shotgun there's a Sentient clearly committing what would constitute a war crime, so I'd definitely say they are waging a war of genocide.

So if The Lotus is a virtuous as she might be: Could all be part of the plan. Or if she really is, she'll wake up knowing she was a part of causing an incredible amount of suffering. To everyone, including the Tenno.

So how will she live with that?

Objectively do the "other type" have equal value? Debatable. Subjectively? ROFL NO, as I've already mentioned I have 0 respect towards those types and stories that try to aim for them generally end up making me sigh + lose interest depending on how much they lean into it (to some degree also how its done in specific topics). "The world is sh&*" is not some intellectual deep concept, if anything it usually boils down to just being an excuse to do ridiculous things. The Saw franchise for instance uses it as an excuse to do over the top gore and flawed concepts of "lessons". Depth and intellectual concepts lie in the middle space where things aren't bent around a "need for death" nor "rainbows and sunshine around every corner". I'd say Lotus/Natah's current story is plenty in that territory with some dark elements mixed in via the brainwashing and now puppeteering. As for the New War footage, it strikes me as just being a continuation of the added intro to the game which comes across as cinematic and having tragedy but in the end having a hopeful end. Considering the character, I don't know if she's been given a name or not so far, there finds the dormant frame and awakens it presumably leading to the grineer being wiped out and setting the stage for the Tenno's role of sorts. The darkest element of NW's shown stuff has been either Erra's creepy interactions in the demo or Lotus being forced into whatever the one machine turns out to be.

You mentioned those elements being in place including death, however there's a massive difference between non-descript forces dying and littering a battlefield or even a random frame (given they're mass produced and the true "heart" of it is the Tenno that would be in an orbiter elsewhere so not a true death) vs. a figure head figure like Lotus/Natah who's been shown in a very victim territory. Hell if Teshin gets to walk away from his betraying the Tenno in War Within, Lotus/Natah easily has every right to walk away from New War as an ally/partner.

That wasn't calling you one at least not in that particular post, it was asking if "edgelord" is a more acceptable label than "incel" cause in my eyes there's a sliver of difference and both are labels for a particular type of person. Also do actions in videogames 100% reflect the player? No. Can they however showcase some elements about them? Yes, most definitely. Someone that decides to light a videogame kid on fire to watch them burn and laughs about it is going to get looked at like a psychopath by me, don't care how they try to explain it. Same with certain choices people can make in games like ME that will earn them a side-eye from me, because it is to a degree reflective of their sensibilities (with some rare exceptions for people that have already beat the game and just want to see what happens as a result or x,y, or z). Also last I checked these forums aren't yours to control, so the bit about what you do or don't have room for doesn't matter and the dismissive "clear" only gets a expletive that I can't put here with a "you" because in these forums we're all equals. I don't particularly care if you talk or respond to me, so you don't even have that as some leverage point; I'll continue to reply as I have been as a forum-goer.

Actually it has been the case as we've had to have breadcrumbs given to us to know what's going on with the Sentients, things that I imagine being tied to "The Man in the Wall" in some form if not handwaved as needed just for story progression. Story-wise the entire Sentient attack shows the tactical weakness of not having Lotus/Natah, since not a single soul saw the Sentients coming en masse to attack. 

Choosing to kill off a major character that supported your character in the start of the game = deserving to be punished for it. I wasn't being coy or subtle in that regard. Also ME definitely punished particular players for their actions, especially Renegades and in some cases in majorly harsh ways. It actually closed off entire storylines if you chose to do x,y, or z actions. Sometimes those actions being done in early games but only having a reaction to them in either 2 or 3.

When a Renegade can reason the big bad of a game into killing themselves instead of fighting you, then I'll put it as on par with a Paragon in the ME-verse. Also when a Renegade can shape an ME-verse that's half as morally decent as a Paragon. Also when a Renegade doesn't come across as an a*%hole for their actions, which in most cases is deserved. I'll dip into Renegade for specific things, I have nor ever will play as a Renegade.

There's nothing to buy. The story is what it is and its been shown that the Orokin were self-absorbed arrogant elitist pieces of garbage that abused and manipulated every other life than their own for their own enjoyments. That goes right in-line with them brainwashing Natah into becoming Lotus in order to manipulate the Tenno. Then there's Natah who has yet to directly attack or go after the Tenno in anyway, instead showing reservations at multiple points and even being forced into whatever machine by Erra. Then the New War preview showing her in literal shackles driving in that she's a victim and either Erra or Ballas is the puppeteer that is truly in command of the war.

Natah hasn't manipulated anyone, she's a victim of being manipulated. Like Erra literally forced her into the whatever machine (pretty sure its purpose hasn't been explained just yet, unless its to call more Sentients in), that wasn't her choosing to do it. She's only been shown as reserved and/or conflicted in whether to stand against Erra or not. There's not a single shred that goes towards her manipulating either Ballas or Erra, instead there's been Erra gaslighting and guilt-tripping her.

So what if they're capturing Grineer? That doesn't say anything about Natah/Lotus's fate one way or another. It'd be different if she were a leader or ally of Grineer and Grineer she specifically knew/were around got captured, thus suggesting she was caught as well. But in this case its rando Grineer being held in suspension, which says nothing outside of Grineer being captured.

Once again literally everything shown runs against the idea of some ploy from Lotus/Natah, not a single shred of anything in favor of that vs. it all being either Ballas or Erra's puppeteering. Also she isn't the one literally controlling the armies of Sentients, so her hands wouldn't be the ones stained in blood; though even if one wants to try to put that on her the Tenno have done just as bad things in their actions across the galaxy. So unless you're going to be pushing for Tenno doing a self-sacrifice and/or suicide because of their actions it doesn't play out. I'd actually say the Tenno are worse because they're actions are their choice made with no victimization in play.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I still think that should be an option. Consider this: The gameplaynof Kaul, Teshin and the Corpus could be potential combat choices for our Operators.

Primary, Secondary and Melee (I think Melee will be Heavily favored) All compelling choices. But I'd add a fourth. Putting our Operators in a Transferrance loop. It's clearly possible considering the Silver Grove and Chains of Harrow Quest, so it's supported within the lore already.

It's not just "edgelords" wanting to choose this path so I say again stop painting everyone with the same brush. More likely its nothing to do with decisions made in the quests. 

Some players might want to simply revert back to gameplay pre Second Dream. And it could be a compelling gameplay choice along with 3 others who don't want to engage in it. Plus there's a lore component that some want to engage in.

So how is that a bad thing? 

Um no, to start with that was already decided and shouldn't be backtracked on just as a basic principle and to not reopen old wounds.

Yeah, how about no. neither Silver Grove nor Harrow's quest go towards a positive route. On top of that the Operators have their own specific things that they do and the game shouldn't have to bend to allow "I don't want to be a kid" whiners their ability to instead permanently jump into their edgelord fantasy body. Hell the whole point of War Within and even Sacrifice were showing that the frames require a balance between Operator and frame. The first of those having the Operator establish who they are as an individual. But let's just toss all that away so that a particular group can run around in the frames cause how dare you have to play a kid that is "older than they look" and not a badass edgelord type protag.

You keep saying that, every one I've run across in that vein is exactly that and their reason boils down to the Operator not being some badass warrior type they can self-insert into v. the frames.

Again tossing away an entire part of the game & story; reopening old wounds; wanting the game to bend itself to fit what you want; wanting a bullet to be lodged in the Tenno's brain which is what locking them into a frame; and which leads into a major plot-hole created via Tenno being able to shift between frames even though by the lore if they abandon their bodies they're locked into 1 frame alone thus breaking out of the universe by continuing to have access to however many you build. I'm going to guess that you're a leftover from the pre-TSD days that never learned to accept what the game has been trying to say.

If you can't see the bad in all of that ^ then you need someone far more patient than me to try to explain it to you. Meanwhile I'll easily enjoy utilizing my operator and waiting to see their story unfold alongside their frame with each being an equal part like The Sacrifice says.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Objectively do the "other type" have equal value? Debatable. Subjectively? ROFL NO, as I've already mentioned I have 0 respect towards those types and stories.

So right here: This is a "you" problem. And it's not debatable. Especially when the game I've used as an example (Mass Effect) is arguably one of the best games that pulls this off. 

Both sides do have equal value. Whether or not you have zero respect for it, dosent matter. Your entitled to your opinion but it dosent devalue the perspective from the other side, the side that players like myself want to take part in. 

2 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

 Also do actions in videogames 100% reflect the player? No. Can they however showcase some elements about them? Yes, mos tdefinitely.

How? How does my preferences of how I act in a work of fiction highlight anything regarding my character as an individual? It literally dosent. Just because I want to play the bad guy (Renegade, Sith insert other edgy character here) dosent highlight any character flaw in a human being. Does the game know I volunteer at a senior center? Give to charity? No, I can't be the only one that wants to play this way and also do these things. So no dosent speak to who people are. At all.

And it also dosent mean there's no value playing this way, it's how I want to experience the world, the lore and community (which Warframes community can be really really awesome). 

2 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Yeah, how about no. neither Silver Grove nor Harrow's quest go towards a positive route. On top of that the Operators have their own specific things that they do and the game shouldn't have to bend to allow "I don't want to be a kid" whiners their ability to instead permanently jump into their edgelord fantasy body.

Well The Silver Grove and Chains of Harrow are among the games best quests. And let me first also acknowledge that the Operators can be made to look very badass (The Infested Cosmetics from Nightwave are Prime example). Secondly, are the Operators really so critical? Especially when the various schools you choose from are in dire need of reworking.

It's just comes down to choice. If we both have what we want: How is that in any way a bad thing?  Just because you don't enjoy these aspects dosent mean others should be denied them, right? It should work both ways.This entire time I've acknowledged that I don't enjoy playing from your way and your perspective but I haven't taken any value away from it.

You need good and bad. And the one thing this game does very well really put that into question.

2 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Natah hasn't manipulated anyone, she's a victim of being manipulated.

Really? Say that the Orokin Leadership because last time I checked they died due to the Tenno, who she lead right? She literally refers to herself as a "mimick." Her Sentient purpose is to literally manipulate. And since ultimately it resulted in the Tenno literally assassinating the entire Orokin Leadership Would you say that was successful? Whether or not they deserved it dosent matter.

She accomplished that objective. Infiltrated, gained influence and attacked from within. You can see why players MIGHT not want to trust her again, when she literally tells us that she's a "mimick" 

To what extent is she a victim? What If she's mimicking that? Playing possum? This whole component could potentially be another manipulation. Even with the Old War cutscene when she's surrounded by Tenno, that whole outcome could have been a red herring making Erra believe she's really left. If the war is ongoing and its going well for the Tenno: She's probably still going to want to play her part right? 

Erra probably wasn't even aware of what the real purpose of her being there. Even if the Sentients were sent back to Tau: The Tenno still took out the Orokin Leadership. Mission Accomplished.

And again what if they make killing The Lotus the "Paragon" decision? What will you do if killing her is the "right" decision? And saving her is the Renegade? Have you considered that outcome?

I have. And for me that player choice its going to be a very tough decision and it's also very compelling. But for different reasons then yours. And to be truly honest: I just don't care about the Lotus because she's far more compelling as Natah. That sounds far more compelling then a "positive" outcome.

2 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

 

Choosing to kill off a major character that supported your character in the start of the game = deserving to be punished for it. I wasn't being coy or subtle in that regard. Also ME definitely punished particular players for their actions, especially Renegades and in some cases in majorly harsh ways. 

It really doesn't. If I can achieve 100% Galatic readiness then I am still achieving the same outcome as you regardless how am I punished. I've killed Wrex, I've shot Mordin in the back and not cure the Krogan. And you can also achieve even greater outcomes as a Renegade: Like Saving the Quarians AND Geth  just like a Paragon. So how am I punished exactly? Sure I'll miss some character development with others that arnt around but I also get other elements to the plot that you don't.

Which is why if I do decide to kill Lotus vs saving her: It just comes down to different outcomes and rewards. We BOTH get what we want in some form or another. Your go your way and I get to go mine.

But I just don't see it being that black and white. And with that I also don't see The Lotus making it out alive. 

Either way both have equal value from a gameplay perspective whether you like that or not. If you don't respect that: I don't care, and same goes for others who play the exact same way. And that also dosent speak to who I am as a person or anyone else in any way.

 

 

[CrimsonXX]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

So right here: This is a "you" problem. And it's not debatable. Especially when the game I've used as an example (Mass Effect) is arguably one of the best games that pulls this off. 

Both sides do have equal value. Whether or not you have zero respect for it, dosent matter. Your entitled to your opinion but it dosent devalue the perspective from the other side, the side that players like myself want to take part in. 

 

Um yeah, it is debatable. So long as there's ones like myself as well as others that take issue with particular elements of media that are done either on their own or how they're done there's a debate there. There's particular tropes/story elements or ways of doing them that I will 100% object to in an objective manner vs. in a subjective manner; aka objecting in a general sense vs. objecting in a personal manner. Also once again ME heavily leans towards the Paragon side of things and rightfully paints Renegades as a%*holes, so that's not exactly in your camp.

Keep saying that to yourself, while I sit in my spot rolling my eyes at the garbage your side pushes for out of some disgusting nihilism or cynicism catalyst garbage pile. I will not objectively or subjectively put any value in for example someone that wants more and more gore for the sake of gore; or someone that roots for characters that players have built emotional investment in to die for the sake of cheap drama/shock value/just to be a edgy a%*hole. The Saw franchise is not of equal value as a media objectively to any number of movies but for the sake of this example The Matrix (mostly the first movie but the others can be tossed in as part of "franchise" I guess). The first is a "gore porn" trope creator, while the other explores far more intellectual concepts about perception of reality, co-existence, and fate (while also maintaining a hope in the end). You can try to spin it however you want, I'm not ever going to shift to seeing any value in what you're trying to push.
 

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How? How does my preferences of how I act in a work of fiction highlight anything regarding my character as an individual? It literally dosent. Just because I want to play the bad guy (Renegade, Sith insert other edgy character here) dosent highlight any character flaw in a human being. Does the game know I volunteer at a senior center? Give to charity? No, I can't be the only one that wants to play this way and also do these things. So no dosent speak to who people are. At all.

And it also dosent mean there's no value playing this way, it's how I want to experience the world, the lore and community (which Warframes community can be really really awesome). 

 

So a player that runs around in a game setting kids on fire and laughing irl about it = saying nothing about that player? Hell no, that suggests a TON about that person. That's opposed to someone just choosing to punch a character, which in context is completely understandable. I've already listed my ME history and some of the things in it 100% speak logs about me. Namely that I lean towards lawful good, will bend over backwards to reach co-existence/find middle ground between disagreeing parties, will fight to save people, am very much willing to give second chances (a la the Rachni Queen), and if there's a "golden ending" I'll shoot for it every time or settle for the good ending vs going near bad ends (except if there's items/cinematics in which I'll set it up to go for at the last possible chance and never touch it again). Throwing in a different game I'm also someone that's willing to sacrifice by not intervening to save a town/city, if it means sacrificing a character I'm invested in. These are all details people can gather from how I play games, especially since some of them loosely carry over.

You want to put value into it? That's on you. As I've already mentioned I will never put value into it.
 

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Well The Silver Grove and Chains of Harrow are among the games best quests. And let me first also acknowledge that the Operators can be made to look very badass (The Infested Cosmetics from Nightwave are Prime example). Secondly, are the Operators really so critical? Especially when the various schools you choose from are in dire need of reworking.

It's just comes down to choice. If we both have what we want: How is that in any way a bad thing?  Just because you don't enjoy these aspects dosent mean others should be denied them, right? It should work both ways.This entire time I've acknowledged that I don't enjoy playing from your way and your perspective but I haven't taken any value away from it.

You need good and bad. And the one thing this game does very well really put that into question.

 

ROFL, no Silver Grove and Harrow are most definitely not. I'd point to Octavia's Anthem and minus a particular part The Glast Gambit (which offers the player a choice of how to end it in which I chose to cure the girl), leaving out the cinematic quests (which TSD stands at the top). Like I'll give Harrow's credit in being interesting, fantastic in its horror styling, and for its handling of Rell; however it also shows a Tenno being tortured via being trapped in his frame.

I'd agree the Operators can look awesome, however there's also a section of people that want nothing to do with them cause "they're kids" and act like its some insult to expect presumably adult people to play as kids (never mind how moronic that sentiment is). There's also that they can't by design become melee & gun wielding badasses, instead being the vulnerable side to the frames as part of the balance. As for the Operators being critical, yes they are considering they are what interact with the Void. They are the ones that take down Kuva enemies; the ones able to break through Sentient adaptation; able to soothe the frames (from a lore perspective); able to take down the Voms in PoE; serve as the face for the player; allow avoiding plot-hole of switching frames; etc. I can easily say that I'd never want them removed or be forced into a frame, because I very much like mine.

Programming, resources, time, and reopening old wounds = the bad of trying to go down any of those alt routes. Not to mention how Operators in particular serve as more of a high-minded concept in terms of corporeal being evolving into partial energy beings vs. the regress-ivistic or primitive idea of being some raging beast in frame form. This is a scifi game, not some medieval fantasy sim or Dark Souls styled game.

No, you really don't in terms of your protags or even in terms of game design outside of enemy bosses which we have plenty of. This game does "gray" really well, since there's not a single faction in it that has any claim to "innocent and unstained hands". New War demo only furthering that via the perspectives of the Kahl and Veso.
 

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Really? Say that the Orokin Leadership because last time I checked they died due to the Tenno, who she lead right? She literally refers to herself as a "mimick." Her Sentient purpose is to literally manipulate. And since ultimately it resulted in the Tenno literally assassinating the entire Orokin Leadership Would you say that was successful? Whether or not they deserved it dosent matter.

She accomplished that objective. Infiltrated, gained influence and attacked from within. You can see why players MIGHT not want to trust her again, when she literally tells us that she's a "mimick" 

To what extent is she a victim? What If she's mimicking that? Playing possum? This whole component could potentially be another manipulation. Even with the Old War cutscene when she's surrounded by Tenno, that whole outcome could have been a red herring making Erra believe she's really left. If the war is ongoing and its going well for the Tenno: She's probably still going to want to play her part right? 

Erra probably wasn't even aware of what the real purpose of her being there. Even if the Sentients were sent back to Tau: The Tenno still took out the Orokin Leadership. Mission Accomplished.

And again what if they make killing The Lotus the "Paragon" decision? What will you do if killing her is the "right" decision? And saving her is the Renegade? Have you considered that outcome?

I have. And for me that player choice its going to be a very tough decision and it's also very compelling. But for different reasons then yours. And to be truly honest: I just don't care about the Lotus because she's far more compelling as Natah. That sounds far more compelling then a "positive" outcome.

 

You mean the Orokin Leadership that treated every species they deemed as below them (which is every single one) as absolute garbage, including the Tenno that were treated even worse as abominations? Yeah, they deserved what they got easily and that DOES matter. What has she mimicked so far? A mother figure then a "behind the screen" support, neither of which has caused harm or led the Tenno to their own destruction. Hell going back to the OL, she damn well freed the Tenno, before moving into being a support for them. So no, I don't see a reason to not want to trust her again; especially considering what she's guilty of is not being a fully open book. Something which can easily also be applied to Teshin, is he also not trustworthy especially being an Orokin stooge?

There's nothing at all suggesting she's pulling some ruse, that's literally you pulling "what ifs" out of your edgelord "bag of tropes". Not to mention it just not making any sense overall, Ballas/Erra are not going to act like puppeteers as they actually follow Natah's orders. Nor has anything shown so far indicated that they would, instead its been indicating one of them as stoking the war and even straight up forcing Natah into activating the whatever machine. Not even body language goes towards her being the mastermind vs. being a victim.

Once again the Tenno took out their abusive domineering and generally 100% deserving piece of garbage masters, that isn't a negative towards Natah its a positive in her freeing them. It also goes into the idea of the Tenno paying that back by freeing her from both the Sentients and specifically Ballas/Erra.

You undoubtedly haven't looked into at least 1 choice in ME3 in regards to the Rachni Queen, where saving her does actually lead to gaining Renegade points; which I 100% did and was part of my slim vein of Renegade %. So I'd 100% save her regardless, even if it meant Cetus's destruction. And I can say that, that's not even remotely a tough decision on my end. I'm invested in Lotus/Natah, I see her as a partner and mirror to the Tenno, and I see her as a victim that deserves to be pulled away from the ones victimizing her and allowed a chance at whatever she decides to be going forward. The complexity of her dynamic with the Tenno, the complexity of her development as a character as she figures out what parts of Lotus and Natah she wants to embrace, the complexity of the future ripples from partnering with her = far more compelling than anything that involves killing her or having her sacrifice herself. Also your not caring about the Lotus isn't at all shocking, I pretty much figured that out several posts ago if not just on the original post where its basically advocating for her death.
 

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It really doesn't. If I can achieve 100% Galatic readiness then I am still achieving the same outcome as you regardless how am I punished. I've killed Wrex, I've shot Mordin in the back and not cure the Krogan. And you can also achieve even greater outcomes as a Renegade: Like Saving the Quarians AND Geth  just like a Paragon. So how am I punished exactly? Sure I'll miss some character development with others that arnt around but I also get other elements to the plot that you don't.

Which is why if I do decide to kill Lotus vs saving her: It just comes down to different outcomes and rewards. We BOTH get what we want in some form or another. Your go your way and I get to go mine.

But I just don't see it being that black and white. And with that I also don't see The Lotus making it out alive. 

Either way both have equal value from a gameplay perspective whether you like that or not. If you don't respect that: I don't care, and same goes for others who play the exact same way. And that also dosent speak to who I am as a person or anyone else in any way.

 

Yeah, I once again go back to what I said before via the "-expletive- you" on both of those, though by doing them in those playthroughs your punishment would be not having storylines that came from those characters. Also congrats you've 100% shown you're an a$&hole.

No, you actually can't achieve greater outcomes as a Renegade I can assure you. If that were the case the devs wouldn't make it very much clear that its the a$%hole route. I highly doubt you got any benefits that I didn't also get, especially since I got to see every single character developed to their final arcs.

Yeah, no. In my eyes if you choose to kill Lotus I'd be onboard with having your game hit with no info, max level enemies going forward, certain questlines locked away from you having access, etc.

I do see her making it out alive and another wave of whining coming from your type just like post-TSD, when that too didn't cater to you.

Once again, no there's no equal value between us. Yours is a pathetic vein of things that holds little to no value except to others of your ilk. Oh whether you want to accept it or not, it speaks PLENTY about who you are as a person. I will most definitely be hitting the "ignore" option for you cause this little bit of dialogue has more than shown me enough to be done with your a%^.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

5 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

I will not objectively or subjectively put any value in for example someone that wants more and more gore for the sake of gore; or someone that roots for characters that players have built emotional investment in to die for the sake of cheap drama/shock value/just to be a edgy a%*hole.

But it is objectively valued because your appealing to much bigger audience. Having these options open to every type of player is objectively better. That's probably the #1 reason why Mass Effect is as successful as it is. And make that overall story of the Trilogy that much more compelling and warranting multiple playerthroughs.( like 16+ times as I'm on #17)

Something Warframe could benefit from in a huge way.

5 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

You undoubtedly haven't looked into at least 1 choice in ME3 in regards to the Rachni Queen, where saving her does actually lead to gaining Renegade points; which I 100% did and was part of my slim vein of Renegade %.

 

Oh I am well aware you can save the Queen, as I have multiple times. I've also done the opposite. And the Rachni Queen still pops up on ME3. You can save her then too. And when she turns on you and leaves your assets, it's a very minor event in the grand scheme of things. So the actual value of either saving her in 1/3 probably has one of the least impacts in either scenario which is why I didn't even bring it up in the first place. No one gets "punished" 

We still end up with the same decision at the end right? We got to that point differently but that's really it. So where is that greater outcome? I still get the same ending(s).

I've played both Paragon and Renegade (see Objective Value). So the fact that you don't want to see it or view it that way: Is 100% a "you" problem and completely subjective. Your completely alienating a fairly large portion of the playerbase only due to personal feelings.

Warframe, Mass Effect and other games see the value in it. Therefore: Objectively valuing all perspectives. Which makes the narrative that much more compelling overall. And also welcoming.

Which is what Warframe is all about. Overall it's a great community that does value both perspectives (again Objective Value).

5 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

 What has she mimicked so far? A mother figure then a "behind the screen" support, neither of which has caused harm or led the Tenno to their own destruction.

Exactly. She's mimicking this. Right here. Infiltration to lead the most powerful Orokin Warriors who then cut the heads of the whole empire. That's the orgional reason why she's The Lotus.

Whether it was for the moral reasons of how evil the it's leadership was, her mission (literally the reason why she's even here) or protecting the Tenno: She still accomplished her primary objective. That's her original purpose. 

And it's literally told to use right before we face the Ropalolyst. Her weapon is manipulation.

That's why there's players that do actually want to kill her. Not only because they want to play the "edgelord" but also because: They feel betrayed by her. And that's brilliant story writing from DE. 

We have players invested in The Lotus because she's viewed as the motherly figure, players who feel betrayed because of the same emotional attachment and players who simply want to rebel and go down there own path. How is that not seen as objectively valued? 

It offers so much replayability. All those options are compelling. I personally would like to see all those directions, even if I and others want to take the darker path. 

5 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Yeah, no. In my eyes if you choose to kill Lotus I'd be onboard with having your game hit with no info, max level enemies going forward, certain questlines locked away from you having access, etc.

So you want to completely alienate a considerable chuck of the playerbase because your character perspective has some sort of moral high ground? Because that's insane. Especially when the potential narratives that DE can create or potential game elements could be really really interesting.

Mass Effect wouldn't be the franchise it is if it did that, player choice just makes everything better. After that it's personal choice.

Just because I view Natah as a real enemy and you view it as The Lotus and is worth saving is pretty awesome, if it wasn't the cause this discussion wouldn't even be happening right now.  

There was talk a while back of introducing a "Stalker" Syndicate. On the flipside you could have a "Lotus" Syndicate and then some sort of "Middle/Grey Syndicate" who don't like either path, where the game world offers events and interesting rewards for all 3.

That would be extremely interesting not even from a gameplay perspective but even a community one as I'd really like to see where players would go. 

5 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

.So I'd 100% save her regardless, even if it meant Cetus's destruction. And I can say that, that's not even remotely a tough decision on my end. I'm invested in Lotus/Natah, I see her as a partner and mirror to the Tenno, and I see her as a victim that deserves to be pulled away from the ones victimizing her and allowed a chance at whatever she decides to be going forward.

So you'd let the Destruction of an entire society happen to save one character?  Because you said you'd have no problem sacrificing them:

How "Renegade" of you. In that scenario you would instantly become a villian. It's not like The Solaris United or The Entrati would look at that and think "we should still trust the Tenno, that won't happen to us, right" 

That's the means to and end mentality, just like a Renegade. It's OK, new members get cookies. And going back to your further point about punishing players taking the other route: there could a far greater punishment for your decision which from the sounds of it, were not considered so here's some food for thought:

You rally allies who have been suffering from Sentients, who they see Natah being a part of the war effort, apart of creating the suffering. Only for her to be saved? And she's saved because you sacrificed allies to get it done?

What do the survivors think? Pretty sure the Entrati and Solaris United wouldnt be ok with that. What should that punishment be since you want to punish players (harshly I might add) for going the other route that saves more lives overall? Even IF that's viewed as the "Renegade" or "Edgelord" choice? 

If anything your choice IS more of a  Renegade choice. 

See my point? 

5 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Yeah, I once again go back to what I said before via the "-expletive- you" on both of those, though by doing them in those playthroughs your punishment would be not having storylines that came from those characters. Also congrats you've 100% shown you're an a$&hole.

Well in Mordins case he dies in the majority of outcomes vs living, and even then: It requires a Renegade choice for it to even happen. So other stories are a result, not just simply a punishment (Back to objective value, more stories).

So how does that prove that as a person, I'm an a$%hole? If that's something you use to gauge an individuals character then that's 1) Hilarious  2) Immature and 3) Scary. That outlines so many issues in the world today that I don't want to get into. That's toxic behavior which has absolutely no room for discussion or in the Warframe community. Fictional decisions don't result in real world behaviors, it's not even close to being the same.

 

 

 

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

On 2021-10-11 at 3:57 PM, PublikDomain said:

Rather than what happens with Lotus, I'm much more interested in what happens with the factions. The taglines for the ads I keep getting on Facebook mention "unite the factions", so either that's just referencing Kahl and Vegeto working together during the story missions or they mean uniting the whole Corpus and Grineer. And idk how the heck they expect that to happen.

The other option could be if your making alliances with one you could also make enemies with another.

Kinda like the Syndicate system. I'd really like to see that be expanded on vs having random fodder enemies show up at random times (or rollers like Steel Meridian, that needs to be fixed lol)

It could make for some interesting choices, not just with how we choose the fate of Natah but potentially how the system is shaped after the war. 

[Joezone619]

Well, its easier to keep using the same voice actor rather then hire a new one, so one very likely conclusion is that space mom returns.

But

Its clear the community, or at least a large portion, does not want her to return.

 

Personally, i hope she doesn't return to us as space mom. Doesn't make much sense from multiple story perspectives. Tenno can't just rely on their mother forever. Betraying a faction on mass doesn't tend to sit well with those faction members.

Take that and the fact that the first thing we know she did, was run to alad V, a very prominent enemy of ours, to try to make sentients immune to void energy, aka us tenno. And things aren't looking good for natah.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

38 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

 

Take that and the fact that the first thing we know she did, was run to alad V, a very prominent enemy of ours, to try to make sentients immune to void energy, aka us tenno. And things aren't looking good for natah.

Thank you for pointing out this out. Add in what Ballas says to you after you stab him in The Sacrifice, our Operator  asks where she is and his response: 

"I am a stone, she is the hand" 

Or she and Ballas also destroy Umbra (She's in that cutscene).

So how is she a victim again?  Everything we've seen since The Sacrifice lorewise could be Natah manipulating us. She's manipulating Alad V, Sacrificed the Ropalolyst. You can't take anything you see or hear at face value with her.

Because that's literally what she is: a mimick,  showing you  exactly what you want to see. In that same instance you mentioned above Natah tells us this herself.

38 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

Well, its easier to keep using the same voice actor rather then hire a new one, so one very likely conclusion is that space mom returns.

It very well could be but I think when players get to this point of the story, we don't need The Lotus anymore. She's served her purpose. 

And after the way things have gone so far I think the way you get a satisfying conclusion to the character is either the players who want to kill her get that opportunity.

And the ones that want to save her let her redeem herself, which likely means some form of self sacrifice that puts her back into that virtuous light many still have for her.

Either way the same conclusion happens, she's gone. How it happens is semantics. Maybe she reappears in flashbacks or like a force ghost? She can still return and likely will but:

The New War will likely have as much as an impact as The Second Dream because the game really changes when you complete that quest. And we really haven't seen something like that since.