[Amp builds] Propa scaffold no longer crits?

[Tholkemosad]

Greetings fellow Tenno's,

So I have been looking at Amp builds on the internet, and have now build a recommended x77. But the weird thing is - My Propa Scaffold doesn't seem to be able to crit at all? Did DE nerf it or what happened here? I am really curious, because even guides with updates up till december 2021 recommended propa scaffold for its high crit chance, and on the fandom page it still indicates it has a crit chance, so yeah, it seems really sudden.

Hope we can get to the bottom of this mystery, 'cause I am dumbfounded.

Sincerely,

A fellow Tenno

[Lutesque]

23 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

No. A WATER shield. You cannot oneshot a water shield consistently.

Maybe you're not Doing it right ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

25 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

And regardless of wether or not you crit, you always shoot 2-3 shots on the water shield, just to spam out damage and set yourself up for the rest of the shields. 

Huh ? 🤔

25 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

Given the fact that you said you don't enjoy eidolons and that we're having this conversation in the first place, I can guarantee that you're not oneshotting a water shield while solo. No experienced hunter that I know would claim to be able to do that without some kind of exploit.

Except I have.... Been doing it Since they Nerfed The Shraksun Scaffold....

27 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

But if you can oneshot a water shield more than once in a blue moon, please let me know how, cause I and none of the other hunters have figured it out yet.

I don't know.... I was just as Skeptical about The Propa Scaffold as you are right Now.... But after I Saw Rudy Sensei Using it I had to go back and Try it again....

So I just Did what he Did.... 

I don't know Why it actually Works... Il Have to Ask Him.... But he Was Extremely Consistent.... 😱 .... Like Imagine 16 One Shot Shields in a Row.... It was Nuts...

I'm not as Consistent but for me it's Good Enough .. 👍

24 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

Yes, and it's perfectly fine to use what works for you. This whole conversation was me trying to explain the meta amp and why it's used. The recommendation of the 177 is there to answer the question "what is the best amp for eidolon shields?" As it's the best for the job and has been for a while. 

True.... However the Prism Thing is News to Me.... 👀

25 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

 

If you don't want to bother with speedrunning, or the best method possible, or 177 doesn't feel fun, or you don't want to bother swapping between amps, then yea, there's other options you can use.

Except you could Probably Speed Run I've Faster with the Scaffold Alone....

Seriously... I urge you and your Friends to Reconsider.... Your luck might not Change but Theirs Might.... 👀

[taiiat]

On 2022-02-10 at 4:56 PM, Lutesque said:

Yeah no it really isn't.... 👀

it's a big difference. 80 vs 93 isn't a big deal for normal Gameplay where you're going to be firing thosuands of Shots, but that's not what we're talking about. we're talking about having 8 Charges and you need to be not wasting them otherwise you're wasting time. sooooo, not failing is very important.

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

It... Kinda is. I've done a few duos and the difference between using propa or raplak will make or break the run

Not Really... Thanks to The New Meta... You can Fail To Crit Twice and Still Keep Enough Void Strike Stacks for more Shots.... 8 Charges... 6 Synovias.... 

If anything this Puts the Propa Scaffold Ahead now since you won't need to Squat in Void Mode as long to ensure Raplak can One Shot The Shields....

3 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

Pretty decent actually, doesn't happen often but it has happened plenty of times to me where 2-3 of us shoot 3 propas for a water shield and none of us crit.

Jesus... And I thought I was Unlucky... 😱

3 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

 

Again, I'm speaking purely in terms of speedrunning. Would you want have a prism that you can use to oneshot reliably that has more crit chance than your scaffold. Or would you want something that does nothing useful at all, cause those are your two options.

I'm sorry... What does nothing Useful ? I just wanna make sure I read you correctly... 🤨

3 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

 

I understand where you're coming from, you can use a 777 for hunting (DPS and VS roles) and propa is all you need, and it's good for general content as well. But I'm talking about minmaxing specifically for eidolons.

So was I ¯\_(ツ)_/¯....

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

it's a big difference. 80 vs 93 isn't a big deal for normal Gameplay where you're going to be firing thosuands of Shots, but that's not what we're talking about. we're talking about having 8 Charges and you need to be not wasting them otherwise you're wasting time. sooooo, not failing is very important.

That's the Thing though... Now you can Waste 2.... Only 6 out of your 8 Shots need to Crit.... And that's if you're Going Solo.... In Group it's literally now even an Issue... If you don't Crit Some one else likely will... Your Team Mates are basically your Multishot... 😝

In My Case it's literally Only Once in a Blue Moon when I don't Crit after Proccing Virtuos Shadow.... 

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

That's the Thing though... Now you can Waste 2.... Only 6 out of your 8 Shots need to Crit.... And that's if you're Going Solo.... In Group it's literally now even an Issue... If you don't Crit Some one else likely will... Your Team Mates are basically your Multishot... 😝

In My Case it's literally Only Once in a Blue Moon when I don't Crit after Proccing Virtuos Shadow.... 

any waste still wastes time, which is his entire point,
and it's not once in a blue moon, it's on average one out of 5 shots, which is kind've a lot when you have 8 to begin with.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

any waste still wastes time, which is his entire point, and it's not once in a blue moon, it's on average one out of 5 shots, which is kind've a lot when you have 8 to begin with.

You're Wasting Time Already Charging Void Strike get The Raplak Prism to do the Exact Same Thing... That's my point.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's no way around it.... time is going to waste... That's just a fact with Both Parts....

Propa Scaffold is 95% Consistent For Me.... so I'm good..... 👍

You gotta do what right for you.... 👀

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

You're Wasting Time Already Charging Void Strike get The Raplak Prism to do the Exact Same Thing... 

no you're not. that's most of why Void Strike is so useful, because there's a significant amount of time during each Phase that you don't need to be shooting. and that's time that you charge since you don't have anything better to do anyways.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

no you're not. that's most of why Void Strike is so useful, because there's a significant amount of time during each Phase that you don't need to be shooting. and that's time that you charge since you don't have anything better to do anyways.

Exactly.... And that Amount of time is barely enough For The Propa Scaffold.... Since The Raplak Prism Does Less Damage you would have to Charge for Longer Anyways...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[--ZeRo--]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I'm sorry... What does nothing Useful ? I just wanna make sure I read you correctly... 🤨

Your only other options are prisms that won't do enough damage/crit to oneshot, or using something that fires extremely fast so you can dump your void strike stacks and start recharging.

 

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Not Really... Thanks to The New Meta... You can Fail To Crit Twice and Still Keep Enough Void Strike Stacks for more Shots.... 8 Charges... 6 Synovias.... 

You use up 3 shots on average for the water shield, 2 if you're lucky. So if you use 3 shots then you're left with 5, one for each shield. In a duo, if you don't crit, it's pretty much run ruined unless you manage to get lucky with subsequent shots. So naturally, you'd rely on the shot that is more likely to crit.

In a squad, the penalty for not critting is reduced because of teammates. But again, I'll refer to the bad luck I've experienced in the past. In a full squad, normally you'll have two shield breakers and your other VS user will be charging lures. So with two people shooting the likelihood of not critting goes down, but I've seen full squads not crit several times in a row while using raplak. Now imagine that luck but with propa.

And again, I'll say this: an experienced hunter can easily charge to raplak's required stacks. You can charge enough stacks to raplak oneshot a teralyst while fighting the teralyst. And while in-between eidolons, you can easily charge up to over 10x, which is all you need. There've been many, many times where I end up with over 20x by the end of a gantulyst/hydrolyst.

[Lutesque]

4 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

Your only other options are prisms that won't do enough damage/crit to oneshot, or using something that fires extremely fast so you can dump your void strike stacks and start recharging

I don't use The Prism Anyway.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

4 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

You use up 3 shots on average for the water shield

Noooo... You use Up to 3 Shots on Average.... I can Normally do it in One and when I get unlucky it takes two... And that's assuming if I'm the only one Firing....

 

4 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

 

In a squad, the penalty for not critting is reduced because of teammates. But again, I'll refer to the bad luck I've experienced in the past. In a full squad, normally you'll have two shield breakers and your other VS user will be charging lures. So with two people shooting the likelihood of not critting goes down, but I've seen full squads not crit several times in a row while using raplak. Now imagine that luck but with propa.

And again, I'll say this: an experienced hunter can easily charge to raplak's required stacks. You can charge enough stacks to raplak oneshot a teralyst while fighting the teralyst. And while in-between eidolons, you can easily charge up to over 10x, which is all you need. There've been many, many times where I end up with over 20x by the end of a gantulyst/hydrolyst.

 

Like I told Taiiat... You gotta do what's right for you... Since my Scaffold Crits reliably I don't have to bother with The Prism....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

 

[--ZeRo--]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Noooo... You use Up to 3 Shots on Average.... I can Normally do it in One and when I get unlucky it takes two... And that's assuming if I'm the only one Firing....

 

... No. A WATER shield. You cannot oneshot a water shield consistently. And regardless of wether or not you crit, you always shoot 2-3 shots on the water shield, just to spam out damage and set yourself up for the rest of the shields. 

Given the fact that you said you don't enjoy eidolons and that we're having this conversation in the first place, I can guarantee that you're not oneshotting a water shield while solo. No experienced hunter that I know would claim to be able to do that without some kind of exploit.

But if you can oneshot a water shield more than once in a blue moon, please let me know how, cause I and none of the other hunters have figured it out yet.

[--ZeRo--]

5 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Like I told Taiiat... You gotta do what's right for you... Since my Scaffold Crits reliably I don't have to bother with The Prism....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, and it's perfectly fine to use what works for you. This whole conversation was me trying to explain the meta amp and why it's used. The recommendation of the 177 is there to answer the question "what is the best amp for eidolon shields?" As it's the best for the job and has been for a while. 

If you don't want to bother with speedrunning, or the best method possible, or 177 doesn't feel fun, or you don't want to bother swapping between amps, then yea, there's other options you can use.

[--ZeRo--]

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah no it really isn't.... 👀

It... Kinda is. I've done a few duos and the difference between using propa or raplak will make or break the run.

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

What are The Odds that 3 Propa Users are Not Going to Crit ? 

Pretty decent actually, doesn't happen often but it has happened plenty of times to me where 2-3 of us shoot 3 propas for a water shield and none of us crit.

 

23 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I can assure you I do not Find them Fun.... 😐

Wasn't talking about you in particular, was speaking in general.

 

Again, I'm speaking purely in terms of speedrunning. Would you want have a prism that you can use to oneshot reliably that has more crit chance than your scaffold. Or would you want something that does nothing useful at all, cause those are your two options.

I understand where you're coming from, you can use a 777 for hunting (DPS and VS roles) and propa is all you need, and it's good for general content as well. But I'm talking about minmaxing specifically for eidolons.

[--ZeRo--]

Ok, I can see that this isn't gonna budge, so this'll be my last word on it. If you have a way to oneshot water Shields consistently, send a video, cause I don't believe you at all otherwise.

177 is what the top speedrunners have been using for like 2ish years now. They would all be telling you the exact same things that I am and a lot of them would probably just assume this is trolling. I honestly don't see how you think exclusively using a lower crit chance will *improve* the run in any way. 

If you want another opinion on this, feel free to contact one of the hunters who've done solo 6x3s, because that's about as good as it gets. All of them use 177 and none of them can oneshot their water shields consistently, so please send your knowledge their way as I'm sure you've managed to crack the code that they've been working on for years.

[Lutesque]

14 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

Ok, I can see that this isn't gonna budge, so this'll be my last word on it. If you have a way to oneshot water Shields consistently, send a video, cause I don't believe you at all otherwise.

Where would I find This Video ?

I sure as hell don't have one....

The only thing I hate more Than Eidolon Hunts themselves is Watching Them on YouTube....

15 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

177 is what the top speedrunners have been using for like 2ish years now. They would all be telling you the exact same things that I am and a lot of them would probably just assume this is trolling. I honestly don't see how you think exclusively using a lower crit chance will *improve* the run in any way. 

Anybody with a Rigid and Inflexible Oppinion on a Video Game is going to consider someone with a Different Oppinion to be Trolling.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess it can't Be Helped....

17 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

. 

If you want another opinion on this, feel free to contact one of the hunters who've done solo 6x3s, because that's about as good as it gets. All of them use 177 and none of them can oneshot their water shields consistently, so please send your knowledge their way as I'm sure you've managed to crack the code that they've been working on for years.

No Thank You.... 

The only thing more Toxic than dealing with Eidolon Speedrunners is Riven Traders.... I avoid Them Both in Equal Measure....

 

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Noooo... You use Up to 3 Shots on Average.... I can Normally do it in One and when I get unlucky it takes two... And that's assuming if I'm the only one Firing....

if you're using less Shots, that means you've been wasting time in some other form. waiting around for several extra Minutes charging means you already spent that time.

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Except you could Probably Speed Run I've Faster with the Scaffold Alone....

Seriously... I urge you and your Friends to Reconsider.... Your luck might not Change but Theirs Might

seeing as you hate Eidolon Hunting in the first place, i think we can be pretty confident that you are not setting completion times that you could post to Speedrun.com
what's being talked about is the fastest and most consistent/reliable (maximizing both at once) methods for Eidolon Hunting. they're not the most comfortable or necessarily the most enjoyable methods, just the best.

so to be clear, the subject that Zero is talking about here, is Eidolon Hunting at around 10 Minutes or faster.
if you didn't want to talk about that, you probably shouldn't have gotten engaged in talking about that.

[Lutesque]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if you're using less Shots, that means you've been wasting time in some other form. waiting around for several extra Minutes charging means you already spent that time.

Effectively the Same Argument I made with The Raplak Prism...  Which... Again deals less Damage Damage.....

Like I said.... There's no way to avoid it.... Time will be lost One way or another.... Either by RNG or by Needing to Charge longer to Compensate for The Damage Difference....

And if you must know.... I grab the Shard and Insert it in the Shrine and take up my Position with No Delays....

If my Team Mates happen to Dilly Dally then That's Out of My Control.... 😝 But hey... That's a larger VS Multiplier.... I think I got to 18 at One Point thanks to Mesa that didn't have her Archwing Yet.... 😱

If my Teammates Are Experienced then Guess what.... They Are probably Also Volt Users Firing The Propa just like I Am all at the Same Time.... Thus the RNG goes Back in my Favour ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

seeing as you hate Eidolon Hunting in the first place, i think we can be pretty confident that you are not setting completion times that you could post to Speedrun.com

I'm not Fond of Leader Board Of Any Type.... Even for Activities I do enjoy....

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

what's being talked about is the fastest and most consistent/reliable (maximizing both at once) methods for Eidolon Hunting. they're not the most comfortable or necessarily the most enjoyable methods, just the best.

No it's not.... Correct me if I'm Wrong but isn't Each Time On Those Leader Boards literally Just One Run ?

Effectively that means I can be at The Very Top Of That Board if my Casual Ass got Lucky just once....

There's absolutely Nothing Consistent About it.... 

Are you Trying To Swindle Me ? 🤨

16 minutes ago, taiiat said:

 

so to be clear, the subject that Zero is talking about here, is Eidolon Hunting at around 10 Minutes or faster.
if you didn't want to talk about that, you probably shouldn't have gotten engaged in talking about that

I've done that before....

Using The Propa Scaffold.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[taiiat]

54 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Effectively that means I can be at The Very Top Of That Board if my Casual Ass got Lucky just once....

 

I've done that before....
Using The Propa Scaffold.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

no, you can't just be lucky. it's not about +/-1% Damage that is what separates people that are actively trying to be fast.
it's kinda disrespectful to suggest so.

 

10 Minutes is a very generous figure, i was trying to not be mean while getting the point across of what the actual subject is. the top grouping on the Leaderboard are close to 8 Minutes flat.

[--ZeRo--]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Time will be lost One way or another....

I said I'd be done with this, but I think this is the root of the issue. No time is being wasted while charging for raplak, I'm pretty sure i've tried to make that clear. There are no delays in shards, shields, limbs, or any aspect of the hunt whatsoever. I really don't understand where you're getting the idea that it will take time away from the hunt, because it doesn't. A good hunter doesn't need to sit around in void mode and wait for their stacks to increase, they're doing that throughout the entire hunt and while there is any down time and you close the gap that raplak creates easily. 

I saw that you said you don't like watching youtube hunts, but if none of our explanations will show you... just watch. I timestamped it at the beginning of the second set, I just ask that you watch at least up to the end of the gantulyst. No time is wasted waiting to use raplak.

https://youtu.be/-3nQF59q86M?t=500 (Duo 6x3 VS PoV)

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

The only thing more Toxic than dealing with Eidolon Speedrunners is Riven Traders.... I avoid Them Both in Equal Measure....

I'd also like to address this. The eidolon community isn't toxic. The randoms that sit in recruit chat and in pubs that yell at you when you make the slightest mistake, those are the toxic ones and we hate them as much as you do. The real hunting community on discord and the speedrunners on youtube are extremely chill people, I've spoken with most of them and seen them offer up their time and effort to help new players and hunters get on their feet. To go further, I moderate a one of the larger eidolon servers and have only had to deal with toxicity maybe once or twice, meanwhile I see people generalizing the entire eidolon community as being these toxic monsters all the time. 

Not gonna launch this into a whole separate conversation, and I'm not gonna sit here for hours and try to make you change your mind, just asking that you take this into consideration.

This will be my last say... promise 😉

[Lutesque]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

no, you can't just be lucky. it's not about +/-1% Damage that is what separates people that are actively trying to be fast.
it's kinda disrespectful to suggest so.

And yet that's what the Leader Board Measures is it not ? 

Don't blame me... I didn't even bring it up in the first place.... 👀

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

10 Minutes is a very generous figure, i was trying to not be mean while getting the point across of what the actual subject is. the top grouping on the Leaderboard are close to 8 Minutes flat.

Again... You only need to Nail That Once to place on the Board... That's why I've never really enjoyed watching Speed Runs on YouTube there's just too many things that aren't in your Control...

By That Logic I Should Be an Expert On The Profit Taker because I managed to complete that Bounty in less than 4 Minutes.

What That Image Doesn't Tell you is if I can or Cannot complete In 3 Minutes Consistently.... Hint.... I can't.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Such is The Nature Of Leaderboards....

I don't claim to be knowledgeable on Something based on stuff like that Nor Am I going to accept the word of someone just because they have 1 Billion Hydrolyst Captures....  Anybody can get those Caps through sheer Persistence alone

Surely someone who is infact an Expert can simply Explain why Something is Better.... Not Tell me : "I can do 6x3s... You're wrong."... LoL... Like I care 😏...

2 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

. I really don't understand where you're getting the idea that it will take time away from the hunt, because it doesn't.

Isn't it obvious.... The Propa Scaffold Deals More Damage ergo doesn't Require you to Charge As Long as The Raplak Prism....

How on earth did you miss that ? 🤔

2 hours ago, --ZeRo-- said:

A good hunter doesn't need to sit around in void mode and wait for their stacks to increase, they're doing that throughout the entire hunt and while there is any down time and you close the gap that raplak creates easily. 

Yeah... For Your Scaffold which you admitted has problems Critting.... 

For The 3rd Time...  Do What Works For You.... 

This is Effectively the Problem with RNG.... It affects people so Differently that entire Strategies are simply not Viable.... It sucks.... But DE refuses to Change anything about it so this is The Situation we're in.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I won't be Repeating Myself Again.... 

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, Lutesque said:

This is Effectively the Problem with RNG.... It affects people so Differently that entire Strategies are simply not Viable.... It sucks.... But DE refuses to Change anything about it so this is The Situation we're in.... 

you can't (well, you can, free Country, but that's not the point) just dismiss everything you don't like in the game as "random uncontrollability". just like when you claim that none of the Math in the game makes sense - no, it makes sense. just because you aren't aware of the existence of some of the Variables doesn't mean they aren't there.

the reason why it's useful and important was already explained. once you're charged to the point where Raplak will Shield break as long as it Crits, it's more reliable than any other fire mode Amps have since it has the highest probability to Crit. all this means, is that over the course of infinite Eidolon Hunts, you'll need less Charges to use that than some other fire mode. you're naturally going to reach the point where the weaker thing can stll oneshot, because you're always charging Void Strike whenever you're not shooting at the Shield.

it's ironic even, you dismiss things as uncontrolled RNG, when the explanation of the Amp part preference is literally about reducing unreliability in your Amp. while some things are down to Randomization (location of Teralyst, how reliable your Vomvalyst triggers are, Et Cetera), this is something that Players do have control over. there are less times of failure with 92.5% Crit Chance than 80%. and since it's just a Gun rather than a Piercing Flak Grenade or a Timebomb, since both of those require more planning than "just click on the Eidolon". the explanation provided was pretty straight forward in that regard.

[fo3nixz]

On 2022-02-05 at 5:33 AM, --ZeRo-- said:

Also, if you're doing eidolons with it, use 177, not x77.

err the x in x77 is the prism, in this case its 1 (raplak)

[--ZeRo--]

On 2022-02-13 at 2:59 AM, Lutesque said:

How on earth did you miss that ? 🤔

How on earth did you miss the video that i sent? y'know... the one that proves that you waste no time when using raplak. Give it a watch 🙂

[Lutesque]

14 minutes ago, --ZeRo-- said:

Raplak prism has the highest crit chance for a single shot in all the prisms. And since crit is king in eidolons, it's a bit more reliable than propa, but it does a bit less damage. So you need to stack void strike higher before you start using it. 

Is it Abit Less Damage.... Or Alot Less Damage 🤔 ?

[Lutesque]

WS using my 4-7-7 Last Night... Crits just fine... So long as I always Proc Virtuos Shadow....🤔

[--ZeRo--]

If you're not using virtuous shadow with it, your crits will be very few and far between. And if you're not using some way to buff your crit damage, like volt shields, your crits won't be too discernable.

Also, if you're doing eidolons with it, use 177, not x77.